VFWs Ban NFL?

[Bocefish]

Didn't read the article; I believe anyone who puts on a uniform becomes part of a team.

There is no "I" in team, period.

Colin K wore socks showing pigs with police hats long before throwing his team under the bus for sitting during the national anthem. Now he's unemployed, go figure. Professional sports is a business, now more than ever.

There's a reason military and police are not allowed to make personal political statements in public while in uniform for a reason.

All team sports would benefit from following that creed.

People watch sports to get away from the political bovine excrement!

 

[AmberCutie]

Didn't read the article; I believe anyone who puts on a uniform becomes part of a team.

There is no "I" in team, period.

Colin K wore socks showing pigs with police hats long before throwing his team under the bus for sitting during the national anthem. Now he's unemployed, go figure. Professional sports is a business, now more than ever.

There's a reason military and police are not allowed to make personal political statements in public while in uniform for a reason.

All team sports would benefit from following that creed.

People watch sports to get away from the political bovine excrement!

Police and military are government officials.

Athletes in the NFL are on par with celebrities in music and film and not upheld to the same expectations. Team, yes, but requirements, no. They can use their celebrity for what means they like.

I've always touted that cam girls and other people who are self employed and sell "themselves" as their brand need to be wary of making an advocacy stand as part of their marketing, but by no means does that mean I think nobody SHOULD. Just that it could impact their bottom line. As it did for Colin, unfortunately. But he felt strongly for his stance, and stood up for it in the only way he knew how to bring a lot of attention to it. And it fucking WORKED, in a sense. People are talking about it. That's a step.

There is an epic shitton of injustice going on in the US. We all can agree that violent protests are bullshit and we hate them. They may get attention to the cause, but also put lives in danger and cause a lot of damage in society (and to property). When a man wants to simply kneel or sit during a song to show his stance on something that's HUGELY affecting so many people in our country, why fucking cry about it? Instead of being offended, look into the reason he took that action. Imagine why a person could feel that way, and take a risk on their job and livelyhood.

Colin or any of the NFL players were not hurting anyone or any property other than really sensitive folks' egos, and a falsely inflated ego at that.

Get beyond it. Fix shit.

 

[apoe_lacks]

While I am a member of the VFW, Im not saying I'm going to be joining any protests of the NFL. but as a veteran I get why so many people have problems with it. I and many others who have worn the uniform have friends who have died for just wearing that flag on there arm. Its very hard for those who have fought bled and see friends and brothers die for that flag to see someone protesting it.

While these players have every right to protest, Its hard for many who served to not see as disrespect. It doesn't bother me as much as others i mostly ignore it. But I get it. Im mostly anoyied because the NFL is one of my escapes from RL. IE poilitics etc...

There where many ways these players could have protested. maybe staying in the locker room or whatever. I think this was prob the wrong move. and based on ratings other stuff now fans of the NFL agree. The NFL has gotten themselfs into a box they can't get out of now. they are in trouble..

But end the end. What we need is understanding from both sides of this issue. The people don't like the players Kneeling need to understand why they are Kneeling. And the players need to realize that many groups like this are going to have problems with it.

 

[dilligaf0]

I remember the anti-war protests in the 60's. I disagreed with disrespecting the soldiers coming home. (Those were the days of the draft, you got drafted and you served unless you were physically unable to or were rich enough to get deferments). That doesn't mean people were wrong to protest the war itself. But protesters were called anti-american because they disagreed with the ruling class.
This shit has been stirred up by people that want us fighting each other, because if we stop and think about the bullshit that's going on, people will demand changes.
We fight each other about useless shit instead of fighting for a country unified against injustice.
The great thing about freedom of speech is we all have the right to say what we believe.
The other thing about it is we have the right not to agree all the time.
We can just not give a damn about what someone says, but we can't tell them they can't say it.

 

[DFT]

Let me ask you this. Two years into Colin's experiment which is getting more news?

The posture of sports players before a game? Equality in policing?

Which was his stated goal?

What are we talking about here?

 

[AudriTwo]

imho this is right wing sjw shit.




"mah feels. urrr i don't understand freedom of expression."


protesting the flag is american as apple pie.

 

[dilligaf0]

Which was his stated goal?

His stated goal was to bring attention to the police shootings of black people (in his terms, unjustly).

What are we talking about here?

We're talking about people supposedly having their feelings hurt because these terrible people don't stand during the National Anthem.

At the end of last year, nobody was even paying attention to this until it was used this year as a distraction to stir up discord.


Another point, if you believe not standing for the National Anthem is unamerican and disrespectful, isn't displaying the flag of the movement to split up the United States (the confederate flag) also unamerican and disrespectful?

 

[dilligaf0]

I've been trying to tell people (not here) that there's something more to this than the NFL. It's a distraction towards something else. Whether it be Puerto Rico or something else... there's something that the POTUS doesn't want us paying attention to.

Nyet.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Its a long article and talks about it a lot throughout the whole thing, so quoting is hard, but it was the talk of separating issues (identity politics) vs. protesting for universal justice for all people victimized by our system in any way.

I assume you mean bits like this:

https://ghionjournal.com/decoding-kaepernick/
Does it take much for one of these would be social justice warriors to speak of justice sans partisan blinders and tribal grievances? Why can’t we have one who has enough courage to connect the struggles of families broken in Chicago to the strife faced by families in the Appalachians?

Kapernick means nothing to me. I don't care about his pig socks, his Che t-shirts, the fact that his display supposedly started a trend that is fouling the circuses for those who would rather pretend everything is just fine, or any of that garbage. Kapernick is nothing more than a dog-whistle incarnate for the extremes on both sides of this issue imo.

Colin was born in 1987. This is right around the time I had my first heated political debate about what has led to Kapernick's moment in the cultural spotlight; ramping up of the prison-industrial complex, courtesy of the War on Drugs. It was remarkable (and revolting) to hear voices who had terrorized me throughout the 70s and 80s with visions of a coming oppressive police state suddenly turn on a dime, and applaud it's creation as a necessity.

Michael Wood Jr, USMC veteran and former Baltimore police officer was interviewed by Joe Rogan a couple of years ago. He talked about the systemic racism, and also how the situation breeds racism in individual officers. One of the first things he said when Joe asked him about how to fix this mess was "we've got to end the War on Drugs". Race is being used as a distraction from this. No small wonder, considering the profits involved.

With the wealth of documentation that exists to show that non-POC individuals have suffered as well, why does the narrative need to be focused on race? Because that is how you enslave people, black and white alike. Brother against brother, as the saying goes.

But I digress. TPTB want the focus either on Kapernick and the shameless un-Americanism he has supposedly spawned, or those poor poor black people, so I suppose I better acquiesce if I know what's good for me. Here goes nothing...

(ahem) Colin needs to step up his game if you ask me; he's got a long way to go to catch up to this guy:

"Individuals and organizations who wave Nazi flags, and who use the First Amendment as both shield and sword, must be rooted out of our society and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for fueling hate. There is no place in any civilized society for their ilk.” — VFW National Commander Keith Harman

(translation: Fuck you and your First Amendment, Americans. Now have some more beer and nachos, you stupid fuckers.)

 

[dilligaf0]

Let me ask another question.
If this were a group of veterans using this type of protest (because all other complaints have been ignored) to protest the criminal mismanagement of the Veterans Administration, would there still be this amount of rage from the same groups of people?

 

[apoe_lacks]

Veterans would never use this kind of protest.

 

[dilligaf0]

Veterans would never use this kind of protest.

The same was said in the 60's and yet veterans protested against the Vietnam war.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Veterans would never use this kind of protest.

https://undertheradar.military.com/2016/09/kaepernick-meets-veteran-nate-boyer-kneels-anthem/

Again, Kneeling is directly tied to a veterans input.

“We were talking to him about how can we get the message back on track and not take away from the military, not take away from pride in our country but keep the focus on what the issues really are,” Kaepernick said after the game. “As we talked about it, we came up with taking a knee because there are issues that still need to be addressed and there was also a way to show more respect for the men and women that fight for this country.”

In case anyone already forgot. Again.

 

[WildFingers]

I will stand for the anthem. I will support what the flag represents and the people who gave all for protecting our rights.
I too grew upon the 60's were returning vets were disrespected and even shunned This sickens me today.
I get the right of freedom of protest.i think there may be a better way that it could have been done. We are not having the discussion of a people being treated unfairly we are having a discussion of patriotism and respecting the flag and the people who fought to protect the freedom it represents.
I may not agree with you but I agree you have the right to your speech and expression.
PEACE!

 

[weirdbr]

i think there may be a better way that it could have been done.

I keep seeing people say this, but never saying *how* they should protest. So, how should they protest?

To be honest, I doubt you or anyone else can come up with an effective option that doesn't offend someone and won't be turned into a political tool to try to silence the protestors - this question has been asked for years now and those criticizing the protests never come up with an answer and always try to move the discussion towards something else.

We are not having the discussion of a people being treated unfairly we are having a discussion of patriotism and respecting the flag and the people who fought to protect the freedom it represents.

Aww, cmon - this was never about the flag or patriotism. Just look at how the story of the protests developed - the only ones pushing this whole narrative initially were from the more extreme right wing sites/outlets as way to silence the protestors.. After all, it's easier to say 'they are anti-american' than to say 'they are lying about police brutality' when there's plenty of evidence to show they are right the latter.

 

[AmberCutie]

https://undertheradar.military.com/2016/09/kaepernick-meets-veteran-nate-boyer-kneels-anthem/

Again, Kneeling is directly tied to a veterans input.

“We were talking to him about how can we get the message back on track and not take away from the military, not take away from pride in our country but keep the focus on what the issues really are,” Kaepernick said after the game. “As we talked about it, we came up with taking a knee because there are issues that still need to be addressed and there was also a way to show more respect for the men and women that fight for this country.”

In case anyone already forgot. Again.

Yet we still have people, even reasonable people, claiming he was protesting and disrespecting the flag. People are blinded by their craving to be angry, I think.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

I keep seeing people say this, but never saying *how* they should protest. So, how should they protest?

Some sort of colored ribbon? Ribbons be all the rage. Ribbons everywhere for everything!

 

[dilligaf0]

Some sort of colored ribbon? Ribbons be all the rage. Ribbons everywhere for everything!

Yeah, in fact so many ribbons nobody notices them anymore.
If they organize a protest, they're harassed by authorities.
There's no one specific thing to boycott.
Talking does no good when nobody in a position to help will listen.
We all know about the bot and troll wars on social media.
Take it to the news and people yell "fake news" and many others believe it.
How do we bring attention to problems?
Even the kneeling was ignored until it was brought up at a rally to stir shit up. Kapernick isn't even in the NFL right now so he can't protest like that anymore.
So I'd really like to know, how can you bring attention to problems like this?

 

[JoleneBrody]

Yeah, in fact so many ribbons nobody notices them anymore.
If they organize a protest, they're harassed by authorities.
There's no one specific thing to boycott.
Talking does no good when nobody in a position to help will listen.
We all know about the bot and troll wars on social media.
Take it to the news and people yell "fake news" and many others believe it.
How do we bring attention to problems?
Even the kneeling was ignored until it was brought up at a rally to stir shit up. Kapernick isn't even in the NFL right now so he can't protest like that anymore.
So I'd really like to know, how can you bring attention to problems like this?

And there we are left with nothing but the truth. They don't want it at all, ever, in any way.
Don't march, don't yell, don't speak up, don't sit, don't kneel... just don't. Be peaceful but not around me because I don't want to have to think about it.

If there is one thing history has taught us it's that no matter the method, it's never the right way In the eyes of a large portion of the United States that are quicker to RT the one PoC validating their thoughts they could find than listen to the millions trying to be listened to every day.

 

[dilligaf0]

And there we are left with nothing but the truth. They don't want it at all, ever, in any way.
Don't march, don't yell, don't speak up, don't sit, don't kneel... just don't. Be peaceful but not around me because I don't want to have to think about it.

If there is one thing history has taught us it's that no matter the method, it's never the right way In the eyes of a large portion of the United States that are quicker to RT the one PoC validating their thoughts they could find than listen to the millions trying to be listened to every day.

My point. When all avenues are closed how do you break through to get people to listen?
And then there's the people that just "don't want to be bothered" it will "upset my life", "things are fine".
Until they come to limit or take away your free speech, things you enjoy, freedom to worship (or not).
Then what do you do?
Thinks keep getting restricted / taken away until you have no freedom and nothing that the overlords don't want you to have.
It happened in Germany in the past, it can still happen here.
There must be a way.

 

[JoleneBrody]

My point. When all avenues are closed how do you break through to get people to listen?
And then there's the people that just "don't want to be bothered" it will "upset my life", "things are fine".
Until they come to limit or take away your free speech, things you enjoy, freedom to worship (or not).
Then what do you do?
Thinks keep getting restricted / taken away until you have no freedom and nothing that the overlords don't want you to have.
It happened in Germany in the past, it can still happen here.
There must be a way.

You keep going, because over time those actions will eventually make change. very few people now would say the freedom riders were in the wrong, but at the time the majority of the country disagreed with what they were doing. Almost all major movements for social change that are mostly accepted as good today were viewed negatively in method by a large portion of the population at the time. If it's easy it's probably wrong

 

[dilligaf0]

You keep going, because over time those actions will eventually make change. very few people now would say the freedom riders were in the wrong, but at the time the majority of the country disagreed with what they were doing. Almost all major movements for social change that are mostly accepted as good today were viewed negatively in method by a large portion of the population at the time. If it's easy it's probably wrong

I went through all this shit in the 60's and 70's. I really thought we were past this kind of bullshit. We never seem to learn from history.

 

[Bocefish]

We're talking about people supposedly having their feelings hurt because these terrible people don't stand during the National Anthem.

I've NEVER had an issue with people sitting, not removing their hat, talking... etc. during the National Anthem.

Personally, I don't give a shit if someone wants to fly a flaming U.S. flag upside down in the bleachers, that's their right.

My issue is doing it while being paid to wear a team uniform.

Unless the team approves of said personal protest, it's a shitty thing to do, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Bocefish]

Athletes in the NFL are on par with celebrities in music and film and not upheld to the same expectations. Team, yes, but requirements, no. They can use their celebrity for what means they like.

Out of uniform, I would agree with your statement.

 

[dilligaf0]

I've NEVER had an issue with people sitting, not removing their hat, talking... etc. during the National Anthem.

Personally, I don't give a shit if someone wants to fly a flaming U.S. flag upside down in the bleachers, that's their right.

My issue is doing it while being paid to wear a team uniform.

Unless the team approves of said personal protest, it's a shitty thing to do, but that's just my opinion.

Does that go for nurses, janitors, mechanics or orderlies? They wear uniforms too.
A sports uniform isn't the same as a military or police uniform.
What about years ago when the teams weren't even on the field for the anthem? (and it was rarely broadcast either).

 

[dilligaf0]

Does that go for nurses, janitors, mechanics or orderlies? They wear uniforms too.
A sports uniform isn't the same as a military or police uniform.
What about years ago when the teams weren't even on the field for the anthem? (and it was rarely broadcast either).

This wasn't intended a sarcasm.
I was just pointing out the difference between the uniform of a government employee and that from a privately owned entity.
When you get a job you don't give up your rights to individuality.

 

[Lucid1]

I went through all this shit in the 60's and 70's. I really thought we were past this kind of bullshit. We never seem to learn from history.

Don't you think that if there was a bonafide way of garnering attention to a specific issue that people wouldn't be using it each and every day? If you want to point the finger at something that hinders change, point your finger at the media. They are 90% responsible for how this whole thing was played out, and I'd say that social media would make up the other 10%(and I might edit and go higher with this number).

I mean, a couple of days ago I learned that Tom Petty died. A few hours later I learned that he hadn't died. A few hours after that, I learned that he really did die.

 

[dilligaf0]

Don't you think that if there was a bonafide way of garnering attention to a specific issue that people wouldn't be using it each and every day? If you want to point the finger at something that hinders change, point your finger at the media. They are 90% responsible for how this whole thing was played out, and I'd say that social media would make up the other 10%(and I might edit and go higher with this number).

I mean, a couple of days ago I learned that Tom Petty died. A few hours later I learned that he hadn't died. A few hours after that, I learned that he really did die.

That wasn't entirely the media's fault. LAPD issued a press release that Tom Petty had died. A few hours later LAPD issued another release that Tom Petty had been taken to the hospital and his condition was unknown. The last press release was from Tom Petty's publicist stating that he had passed away.
There are issues that don't get the attention they need. I think much of that is so many people in power keep throwing out all of these distractions to keep us from concentrating on the real problems.Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands have been almost totally destroyed by natural disasters and the country's distracted by national anthem "protests".
58 people were massacred in Las Vegas and we're all wondering what our president meant by his statement of "this is the calm before the storm".
Flint Michigan still doesn't have safe drinking water after years of waiting.
Those in charge want us distracted because if we all figure out how they've fucked things up, we'll demand changes and the next election isn't that far away.

 

[Bocefish]

Yet we still have people, even reasonable people, claiming he was protesting and disrespecting the flag. People are blinded by their craving to be angry, I think.

And there we have it...

People are blinded by their craving to be angry, maybe.

 

[JickyJuly]

My issue is doing it while being paid to wear a team uniform.

Why though? They're kneeling in sports gear. NFL players don't take an oath to serve the American public. What does the flag have to do with their job? Would you be equally outraged if your local Starbucks demanded the baristas salute our flag and some chose to sit instead? Or is it just the fact that the NFL players are paid a hefty sum? If it is money, at what price point does your employer get to demand your support for whatever belief they choose?

Neither the NFL nor the VFW is being victimized by a peaceful protest. The NFL is allowed to get rid of people. But, let's be real. They don't want to anger all of the brown dudes, do they? They don't want to just make business decisions and deal with the consequence. The want black men on the field, and they want them on the sidelines like trained dogs. But, they don't legally have a right to demand that. So, they rile up the public tools and here we go.