Trayvon Martin

[Harvrath]

They BOTH had a legal right to be where they were. Regardless of how it started, it escalated into a life threatening event and it is now the burden of the prosecution to disprove self-defense.

I must have missed where they admitted that.

You probably did because they showed the bond hearing on TV here in the states and O'mara point blank asked the prosecution's lead investigator on the witness stand if they had any evidence pointing to Zimmerman being the aggressor and he said no.

The Investigators testifying at the Bond Hearing was enlightening.

They didn't ask for Zimmerman's medical records. The Gunshot was so close that TM had powder burns on the hoodie and skin (consistent with Zimmerman's story). They got no evidence contradicting Zimmerman's claim that he was walking to his vehicle when he was assaulted. No evidence that he didn't stop following when advised by the Dispatcher. No evidence that Zimmerman profiled.

One of the Investigators said they got a witness who reported seeing two shadows running (which could be the same person in two different light sources).

Looks like the Prosecution has nothing but Shadow Puppets and Earwitnesses.

 

[Jupiter551]

Lol yet when the prosecution tried the same tack they were told to wait for a trial to introduce evidence. It wasn't a trial, whatever happened there was nothing more than a dog-and-pony show to give Zimmerman positive spin before he disappeared for a while - like the apology to the family, even though they specifically asked NOT to have him apologise. It was all to make him look good.

 

[Bocefish]

It was just a bond hearing. The defense was only allowed to question the prosecution on their Affidavit claims for bond reasons.

 

[JickyJuly]

Is it legal to skulk after someone on the street? Seems questionable. Even if it is legal, it's not smart. So Zimmerman's stupid plan maybe got him scratched or whatever his untrustworthy claim is. It's his action that led to the death of another person. He needs to stand up and own that. Can someone from Team Zimmerman please explain to me why following someone and shooting them makes more sense than not following and not shooting them? I mean, even IF you think Zimmerman had a right to follow someone and further escalate the situation into loss of life, you have to admit that HIS actions are what led to this disaster. When our actions have such a profound negative affect on those around us, punishment follows.

 

[JickyJuly]

No evidence that Zimmerman profiled.

Sorry to double post, but following a black teenage boy who is just talking on the phone IS profiling.

Really, I have a question. I live in Florida less than 2 hours from where this shooting happened, and I often walk as I do not have a car. If it is dusk or dark, my pepper spray comes along just in case. If some dude begins skulking after me and doesn't let up after being questioned, can he murder me for spraying him? To me the whole "neighborhood watch" thing is irrelevant as any creeper could throw a sticker on his car. Women especially are taught to mistrust that kind of thing.

 

[Nordling]

Is it legal to skulk after someone on the street? Seems questionable. Even if it is legal, it's not smart. So Zimmerman's stupid plan maybe got him scratched or whatever his untrustworthy claim is. It's his action that led to the death of another person. He needs to stand up and own that. Can someone from Team Zimmerman please explain to me why following someone and shooting them makes more sense than not following and not shooting them? I mean, even IF you think Zimmerman had a right to follow someone and further escalate the situation into loss of life, you have to admit that HIS actions are what led to this disaster. When our actions have such a profound negative affect on those around us, punishment follows.

Yes, and when we take into account that the "purpose" of a neighborhood watch is to provide some safety to the inhabitants of a neighborhood and their guests, this incident had the opposite effect.

 

[Bocefish]

First of all, it's not illegal to follow someone suspicious looking in your gated neighborhood while acting as the community watch. Secondly, there is no proof Zim actually followed him after the operator hung up. Well prior to the end of the call, you can tell Zim ceased following Tray. Zim's story is he was going to get an address which the operator asked him for. Nobody knows what happened in those few minutes between the end of the call and the shooting that WE know about.

Oh, and Pepper spraying someone in self-defense does not give them a reasonable fear for their life. If you do it right, there's no way they will see you, much less be able draw their weapon and accurately aim to shoot you.

 

[sweetiebatman]

IT should be illegal to "follow someone suspicious" weather your part of a neighbourhood watch or not. Whatever way the story gets spun that is what caused this incident. Ring the police, that's what they are paid, and more importantly trained for

 

[Nordling]

First of all, it's not illegal to follow someone suspicious looking in your gated neighborhood while acting as the community watch. Secondly, there is no proof Zim actually followed him after the operator hung up. Well prior to the end of the call, you can tell Zim ceased following Tray. Zim's story is he was going to get an address which the operator asked him for. Nobody knows what happened in those few minutes between the end of the call and the shooting that WE know about.

Oh, and Pepper spraying someone in self-defense does not give them a reasonable fear for their life.

You need to quit talking about "proof." The trial is a long way off--that's when so-called legal proof is a question. What we have now is evidence, pointing in various directions. Zimmerman saying "ok" is very weak evidence that he was going to break off his stalking, but Trayvon's girlfriend saying right after Trayvon said he was going to "walk fast" to evade his stalker, and suddenly she hears him say, "why are you following me," is very strong evidence. We don't know what was going on, but if her story is true, it sounds like Trayvon, walking toward his future step-mother's home heard Zimmerman and called over his shoulder, "why are you following me...?"

 

[Bocefish]

The very definition of proof is evidence and I'll use the word proof whenever the heck I want to. You need to stop telling people what to do.

 

[Jupiter551]

ABC News claim, though we won't know 100% til the trial, that phone records show there was a call from Trayvon's girlfriend to his cellphone at 7:12pm and that it ended about 5 minutes later only just before the shooting. If this is true she is the only witness to any events prior to the altercation, and disproves those who have claimed there was no phone call.

 

[Bocefish]

That's all stuff that will come out in the trial with the time lines.

 

[Nordling]

The very definition of proof is evidence and I'll use the word proof whenever the heck I want to. You need to stop telling people what to do.

Didn't tell you, I suggested it. "Proof" is when the evidence is overwhelming, they are not synonymous. You can use any word you want but when you use a word inappropriately, you lose credibility...be my guest.

 

[Bocefish]

You need to quit talking about "proof."

The very definition of proof is evidence and I'll use the word proof whenever the heck I want to. You need to stop telling people what to do.

Didn't tell you, I suggested it. "Proof" is when the evidence is overwhelming, they are not synonymous. You can use any word you want but when you use a word inappropriately, you lose credibility...be my guest.

proof/pro͞of/
Noun:
Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
Adjective:
Able to withstand something damaging; resistant.
Verb:
Make (fabric) waterproof: "the tent is made from proofed nylon".
Synonyms:
noun. evidence - test - trial - demonstration - testimony
adjective. impermeable
verb. waterproof

 

[Nordling]

proof (prLf)
n.
1. The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.

Yes, evidence is the basis of proof. You still used it inappropriately. Not all evidence is compelling, e.g.

 

[Bocefish]

Believe whatever the phuck you want :lol:

 

[Harvrath]

ABC News claim, though we won't know 100% til the trial, that phone records show there was a call from Trayvon's girlfriend to his cellphone at 7:12pm and that it ended about 5 minutes later only just before the shooting. If this is true she is the only witness to any events prior to the altercation, and disproves those who have claimed there was no phone call.

And her testimony will be treated as Hearsay. She has no idea what Trayvon was doing, only what he told her and what she heard through the phone call.

TM could tell her that he is still walking home but is doubling back to confront Zimmerman who is walking away from TM.

 

[Jupiter551]

ABC News claim, though we won't know 100% til the trial, that phone records show there was a call from Trayvon's girlfriend to his cellphone at 7:12pm and that it ended about 5 minutes later only just before the shooting. If this is true she is the only witness to any events prior to the altercation, and disproves those who have claimed there was no phone call.

And her testimony will be treated as Hearsay. She has no idea what Trayvon was doing, only what he told her and what she heard through the phone call.

TM could tell her that he is still walking home but is doubling back to confront Zimmerman who is walking away from TM.

Regardless of where Trayvon was (and it's pretty clear where he was since his body was found well away from zimmermans car) she heard the opening part of the confrontation - and that's not hearsay. If it conflicts with Zimmerman's account it'll be one more area of doubt shone on his story - along with witnesses saying when he "got off" the guy on the ground he didn't look injured just worried, and saw them, *SAW* them from a few feet away scuffling on grass. Then there's Z's own conflicting accounts to police about what happened. First Trayvon is on top of him, then he "scooted away" and shot him.

He's going to have to produce something fucking fantastical on the witness stand to prove he didn't lie to police, because if he can't then most of his story (which relies on his word) is kaput and he's toast.

 

[Bocefish]

Then there's Z's own conflicting accounts to police about what happened. First Trayvon is on top of him, then he "scooted away" and shot him.

Just curious... I never heard the part that anyone "scooted away" before the shot. Where did you get that from?

 

[SweepTheLeg]

Think it's curious that some of those in here that fear of the federal government growing too big and taking away their rights are the same ones that are saying Trayvon had no rights on avoiding being obtained and questioned by a member of the neighborhood watch. Apparently a gated community is a police state and that's okay.

 

[Bocefish]

Think it's curious that some of those in here that fear of the federal government growing too big and taking away their rights are the same ones that are saying Trayvon had no rights on avoiding being obtained and questioned by a member of the neighborhood watch. Apparently a gated community is a police state and that's okay.

If that is referring to me... Which part of me saying they both had a right to be where they were did you not understand?

 

[Jupiter551]

There's a reference to it in the bond hearing but every transcript I find cuts to a commercial in the middle of questioning perhaps someone else can find a complete one. I saw the same thing referenced in a news article.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justic...in-Zimmerman-s-story-raised-police-suspicions

When Zimmerman was on the stand, Mr. De La Rionda asked him about whether, when police asked him about inconsistencies in his story, he began to say that he didn’t remember exactly what happened. The judge cut off that line of questioning, saying it veered into evidence that should be introduced at trial.

But during his turn on the stand, Gilbreath drew attention to Zimmerman's assertion to police that Trayvon was at one point running around Zimmerman's car. Gilbreath questioned why that should make Zimmerman fear for his life. “[Zimmerman] was so scared that he still got out of the car and chased Mr. Martin,” Gilbreath said skeptically.

Under questioning from O’Mara, Gilbreath also described new details that Zimmerman told police, including the claim that Trayvon allegedly tried to suffocate Zimmerman and grab for his gun before Zimmerman “scooted away” and shot Trayvon at close range.

The unidentified male is one of the prosecutors, Gilbreath is an investigator that Z's attorney called to the stand. Gilbreath mind you didn't have any notice he'd be required to appear which means he didn't have an opportunity to prepare evidence etc.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Gilbreath, I didn't know we were going to be trying the case, I'm going to add up -- I apologize. I want to add some questions to -- you had reviewed or other members of the team had reviewed his interviews, is that not true.

GILBREATH: That is --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he gave -- he the defendant gave numerous interviews to the police did he not.

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that a lot of statements that he made do not make sense in terms of the injuries that he described. Did he not describe to the police that Mr. Martin had him on the ground and kept bashing his head on the concrete over and over and just physically beating him with his hands?

GILBREATH: He has said that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that there is evidence that indicates that's not true?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant -- did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn't breathe?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of sudden that's when he was able to get free and grab the gun. Or I'm sorry, Martin was grabbing for the gun, did he not claim that too at some point. climb that?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But -- and I'm going to get into every little contradiction but wouldn't you agree that a lot of his statements can be contradicted by the evidence either witnesses or just based on what he says himself?

GILBREATH: Yes.

COSTELLO: All right. We're going to have to jump away. We'll be back just as soon as we can. We apologize again. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Back live to the bond hearing in Sanford, Florida. Mark O'Mara, who is George Zimmerman's attorney is doing another redirect of the state's attorney investigator. They're talking about what injuries George Zimmerman had to his head that night. Let's listen.

GILBREATH: Managed to scoot away from the concrete sidewalk and that is at that point is when the shooting subsequently followed. That is not consistent with the evidence we found.

 

[Bocefish]

Ah OK. I vaguely remember hearing on one of the pundit news shows that George's brother said something like Zim was trying to scoot his body enough to where his head was missing the concrete just before he shot. That could be critical info too.

 

[Jupiter551]

Yeah, actually that transcript is pretty bad, and misses out a lot.
This is the full (2 hour) bond hearing, at around 1hr 50 mins Zimmerman's attorney asks him about injuries, and he responds about "scooting" etc. The differences between what the brother said and what Zimmerman (apparently) told the police, is that Zimmerman's brother said that George's last memory before the shooting was that he managed to move his head just enough to avoid "being in a diaper for the rest of his life" or something. Zimmerman's account seems to state that he managed to get away enough to get his gun. Another version he told was that Trayvon tried to strangle him which allowed him to grab his gun, and yet another that Trayvon tried to go for the gun.
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

 

[Bocefish]

That info alone pretty much guarantees it will go to a trial and won't be tossed IF O'Mara requests a preliminary/evidentiary hearing.

 

[SweepTheLeg]

Well that's a recipe for disaster. If Zimmerman had every right to do everything he did to create the situation he found himself in what rights did Trayvon have other than just being there?

 

[Bocefish]

Exactly, that's why it's such a pointless tragedy that could have been so easily avoided had either one of them clearly communicated their intentions.

 

[sorrowfool]

Think it's curious that some of those in here that fear of the federal government growing too big and taking away their rights are the same ones that are saying Trayvon had no rights on avoiding being obtained and questioned by a member of the neighborhood watch. Apparently a gated community is a police state and that's okay.

Contradiction is pretty much the status quo of conservative Republicans right now. Government should be small and not mess with our rights and freedoms, but first the government needs to outlaw abortions, birth control, non-abstinence only sex-ed, Planned Parenthood, and porn. Also, the government needs to put God back into the schools... but yeah, keep government small.

 

[Bocefish]

Think it's curious that some of those in here that fear of the federal government growing too big and taking away their rights are the same ones that are saying Trayvon had no rights on avoiding being obtained and questioned by a member of the neighborhood watch. Apparently a gated community is a police state and that's okay.

Contradiction is pretty much the status quo of conservative Republicans right now. Government should be small and not mess with our rights and freedoms, but first the government needs to outlaw abortions, birth control, non-abstinence only sex-ed, Planned Parenthood, and porn. Also, the government needs to put God back into the schools... but yeah, keep government small.

So now it's the conservative Republicans fault? Fucking morons that keep re-electing despicable politicians like Pelosi get what they deserve. She only wants people to earn more so they can pay the government more in taxes.

 

[Nordling]

Think it's curious that some of those in here that fear of the federal government growing too big and taking away their rights are the same ones that are saying Trayvon had no rights on avoiding being obtained and questioned by a member of the neighborhood watch. Apparently a gated community is a police state and that's okay.

Contradiction is pretty much the status quo of conservative Republicans right now. Government should be small and not mess with our rights and freedoms, but first the government needs to outlaw abortions, birth control, non-abstinence only sex-ed, Planned Parenthood, and porn. Also, the government needs to put God back into the schools... but yeah, keep government small.

So now it's the conservative Republicans fault? Fucking morons that keep re-electing despicable politicians like Pelosi get what they deserve. She only wants people to earn more so they can pay the government more in taxes.

The only virtue to that asinine comment is that it isn't the MOST asinine comment I've ever heard. That would go to Allen West when he said in no uncertain terms that the entire progressive caucus is composed of COMMUNISTS. Joe McCarthy's back?