That was discussed somewhere before and proven that he (Zim) was concerned for the boy's safety, not calling to say he was suspicious.
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Trayvon Martin
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That was discussed somewhere before and proven that he (Zim) was concerned for the boy's safety, not calling to say he was suspicious.
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
The whole freaking story isn't "plausible." A 17 year old kid returning home with candy and a soft drink with no violence in his record is shot and killed by a "neighborhood watch" captain...but it happened.Bocefish said:
Bocefish said:
Okay. But do you really think Trayvon was trying to kill Zimmerman? This skinny kid was terrified, and he was probably operating under one (unfortunately correct) presumption: this crazy fuck is following me, he's getting out of his car and coming towards me even though I've given him no indication to stop me--if I don't get out of here and/or stop him, he may kill me.
what would've happened if Trayvon had (because we still don't even know if this part happened) turned on Zimmerman and attacked him? And Zimmerman didn't pull out the gun and shoot him? If Trayvon had killed him, he would still have used deadly force when it was unnecessary--but at least he would have had some indication (being followed, etc.) that he was under a threat. Zimmerman didn't have a threat until he *followed against 911 orders* this guy who was *walking home.* If Trayvon had, in fact, attacked--and then fled, would Zimmerman have been justified? No. He'd have been a guy who had a history of being very "suspicious" of black people, a guy with a history of being overzealous in his calls to 911, and he'd be a guy who freaked the hell out of someone and prompted them to defend themselves.
As for the child thing--do you have links? I've looked around and I can't see anything supporting what you say, but if you can find facts to back it up, I'll retract that. however, even without the child call, he still had a history of being overly "suspicious" of black people.
Respectfully, that's highly unlikely. In 2010, for example, there were 14,748 cases murder and non-negligent manslaughter, or 40/day. Assuming the same rate/day, in 2012 there have already been 4360. How many have become stories for over a month in the national media?IsabelleL said:
As for the child thing, it was on one of the news stations a while back.
I honestly don't think Tray was trying to kill him. But I have the benefit of knowing him better than Zim did at the time. He was a complete stranger to Zim banging his head into the sidewalk with no idea of his intent. If that's what happened, it's pure survival instincts that would kick in.
I wanted to string Zim up by his nuts too when I first heard about it, but also figured there must be some reason that he wasn't arrested. Only later did I find out he was indeed taken to the station in cuffs and interviewed, given a stress test, and had injuries that gave plausibility to his claim of self-defense. Then, and only then, did I start thinking he may not be guilty. I never thought it was a race thing to begin with though. Tray fit the description of recent burglaries, so he was suspicious in Zim's eyes.
I honestly don't think Tray was trying to kill him. But I have the benefit of knowing him better than Zim did at the time. He was a complete stranger to Zim banging his head into the sidewalk with no idea of his intent. If that's what happened, it's pure survival instincts that would kick in.
I wanted to string Zim up by his nuts too when I first heard about it, but also figured there must be some reason that he wasn't arrested. Only later did I find out he was indeed taken to the station in cuffs and interviewed, given a stress test, and had injuries that gave plausibility to his claim of self-defense. Then, and only then, did I start thinking he may not be guilty. I never thought it was a race thing to begin with though. Tray fit the description of recent burglaries, so he was suspicious in Zim's eyes.
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
"...it was on some station a while back." This is some kind of PROOF that Zimmerman was concerned for the kid's safety? That's the worst cite in the entire thread.
Kradek said:
Actually, there's a huge phenomenon where white women who are murdered/kidnapped end up having huge news stories devoted to them, ignoring crimes against people of color. Let's contrast for example, the cases of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laci_Peterson
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalee_Holloway
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Brown_Simpson
with that of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaToyia_Figueroa
Me merely being murdered? No, that wouldn't be a huge national news story. Me being followed in the gated community in which I lived, and shot when all I was carrying was skittles to give to my brother? And killed by the actual HEAD of the neighborhood watch? Yes. That would be a much bigger flagrant injustice.
Nordling said:
That's the best I can do off the top of my head. Feel free to investigate it yourself.
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
Why would I do that? Look for an assertion that no one's seen or heard? The call to the police that Zimmerman made is ample evidence enough that his concern was NOT for Trayvon's safety. "...punks always get away."Bocefish said:
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
Bocefish said:
Suspicious =/= me thinking I'm going to die if I don't defend myself.
When someone's walking behind me on a sidewalk in broad daylight, and they're making the same turns I am, and I'm alone? Suspicious in my eyes. Doesn't mean I get to kill them.
I'm home alone and some policeman knocks on my door and says he'd like to talk to me about something? Suspicious in my eyes. It means I don't open the door, pretend not to be home, tell him "no thank you," or call the police and ask them to verify his identity. Doesn't mean I get to shoot them.
In addition, there are unfortunately a ton of reasons why someone might not be arrested that have nothing to do with their guilt.
Listen. I'm not inside Zimmerman's head. The evidence that we can see (in my eyes) points to him at least harboring racial bias. That does not mean he shot Trayvon because Trayvon was black.
HOWEVER. There is definitely a history of racism/corruption in the police department of this town.
http://www.wesh.com/r/26351400/detail.html
and even racism in the justice system in general
white men aged 18-29 were 38 percent less likely to be
sentenced to prison than black men of the same age group. In addition, white men of this
age group were sentenced to an average prison term that was almost three months
shorter than that given to black men of this age group. (source: http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/sp/disparity.pdf)
If people had not tried their damned hardest to get Trayvon's murder into the nation's view, I can honestly say that I believe that Zimmerman would have walked unpunished, and possibly not even prosecuted.
The reason this story in particular is a national media story is because Martin's legal team played it that way. Ben Crump calls Al Sharpton, Al Sharpton uses his pulpit to drum support. Throw in a couple catchy sound bites like hoodie and skittles and iced tea and the racial component and this story was a powder keg waiting to happen.IsabelleL said:
I'm not saying your story wouldn't get attention, but I'd take the odds on it not happening on that particular bet.
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
For IsabelleL
http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... y-watchman
The police report says he called because he was concerned for the young boy walking on a busy street. You have to click on it to enlarge it.
http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... y-watchman
The police report says he called because he was concerned for the young boy walking on a busy street. You have to click on it to enlarge it.
Kradek said:
I'm not saying it would guaranteed to be a media frenzy. I'm saying that race definitely plays into it. It bothers me that you've ignored the actual factual evidence I've thrown your way in favor of criticizing my hypothetical scenario. The reason it is a national news story is a triumph over the fact that crimes against black people are often ignored or covered up. This is a documented phenomenon. Despite the fact that crimes against white people in general are rarer than crimes against people of color, white stories are the ones that keep popping up in the news to disproportionate amounts.
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... -of-crime/
I was hoping one of the journalists would have asked the Special Prosecutor Angelina Corey during her briefing if police would have done a follow up investigation had the public did not demand it. She would have probably just given her standard political reply that they don't arrest everyone immediately and avoided the question.
Thank you for that, I'll withdraw that particular case from my evidence. However, I would also point out: that same source says the boy is walking alone--TOWARD AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. I probably wouldn't call the police if I saw a kid walking alone to school.Bocefish said:
Also, can I point out that someone can be implicitly racist? There is a huge difference between someone being a slur-using, actively violent KKK member, and someone who would never say out loud "black people make me nervous" or "I think black people are more violent than white people," but does think in that pattern? Both are racist. No one is saying that Zimmerman thought "look a black kid I'm going to shoot him."
But the people Zimmerman were calling in to report as suspicious were (mostly, if not all) black. Outgroup bias can be subtle, but very strong. Pretty much everyone does it--it's a biological fact that people think that people who look like them are good, and people who look different are bad. It doesn't make it okay. Do I think Zimmerman went after Trayvon solely because he was black? No. But I do think that played a part in it. And that's important. It's important to note because if we don't note it, if we don't explicitly say: our society is run in a way such that our media tells us that white deaths are more important than black deaths, and that's wrong. Our society thinks that black men should spend more time in jail than white men who commit the same crime, and that's wrong.--if we don't note those things? Then we're allowing the system of injustice to prevail.
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For the record, being a neighborhood watch leader doesn't give someone extra rights. It's a lesser position than even mall cops. Taking on that role and doing it incorrectly doesn't say anything for Zimmerman other than he felt above just waiting for the police to let them do their job. The job that they are trained to do and still fail at occasionally. People like Zimmerman are much more dangerous than the Trayvon Martins of the world. His actions weren't even that of a vigilante. He just felt like taking on something he shouldn't have, something he created from his own paranoia and he was told not to do it. Unless you're ready for anarchy and shrugs over unneeded death, that isn't okay.
I do wish that the race issue hadn't come into play so heavily in the media. It feels like people are using it to muddle up the facts. Fists are never an equal threat to guns. You can run away from a fist. You cannot run away from a bullet. If a neighborhood watch dufus approached me with a gun and all intentions of using it, I hope that I would be brave enough to at least get a couple of punches in. Who wants to go down without swinging?
I do wish that the race issue hadn't come into play so heavily in the media. It feels like people are using it to muddle up the facts. Fists are never an equal threat to guns. You can run away from a fist. You cannot run away from a bullet. If a neighborhood watch dufus approached me with a gun and all intentions of using it, I hope that I would be brave enough to at least get a couple of punches in. Who wants to go down without swinging?
You don't think a 17 year old walking home unarmed who is pursued then shot and killed by neighbourhood watch is newsworthy on its own?Kradek said:
This has been worldwide news for weeks btw, and most of us non-Americans don't even really know or care who Al Sharpton is, or even the race factor.
That's what many of us find so mind-boggling in fact, because in the reality the rest of us live in, shooting an unarmed kid dead and then not even getting arrested is incomprehensible, much less defensible, but a lot of you guys seem to think it's perfectly normal. It's not, it's really not.
Boce - what does it matter if there would have been a followup without public pressure? We all KNOW there should have been. Or are you really happy to live in a world where you can shoot an unarmed minor dead and just walk away without even a detailed investigation?
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
A second or third grader is walking to an elementary school...no other information on his behavior...was he "playing in traffic?" If not, if he was just walking to school, who the hell calls the police about that? Sounds to me like more evidence that Zimmerman is a control freak.Bocefish said:
If I spotted a youth walking to school and he was engaged in risky behavior, like crossing on a red light or playing in traffic, I might yell at him and warn him that such activity is dangerous--calling the police would never enter my mind.
Because according to the Martin family, there was no plan to follow up. I absolutely believe there should have been a deeper follow-up investigation and there may have well been one going on before all the public outrage, I dunno. If it was considered a closed case before the public demanded a follow-up, then the police chief should be fired permanently and their entire SOP overhauled.
Well I understood there was a seperate investigation into police handling of the case, but Corey and the murder case would be unconnected to that.
I haven't made a statement one way or the other about whether it's newsworthy. I'm simply stating the vast majority of murders do not become national and international news stories. I'm also saying that this one became the story it is intentionally.Jupiter551 said:You don't think a 17 year old walking home unarmed who is pursued then shot and killed by neighbourhood watch is newsworthy on its own?
This has been worldwide news for weeks btw, and most of us non-Americans don't even really know or care who Al Sharpton is, or even the race factor.
Honestly, the biggest problem with this thread is it's not really discussion so much as a bunch of people twisting what everyone else says into their worldview. I think there are some legitimate issues that could be discussed here, but, especially after the last few pages, they're not going to happen here.
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
Do you have an example of a news story that ISN'T "intentional?" Seems like an argument against the wind.Kradek said:I haven't made a statement one way or the other about whether it's newsworthy. I'm simply stating the vast majority of murders do not become national and international news stories. I'm also saying that this one became the story it is intentionally.Jupiter551 said:You don't think a 17 year old walking home unarmed who is pursued then shot and killed by neighbourhood watch is newsworthy on its own?
This has been worldwide news for weeks btw, and most of us non-Americans don't even really know or care who Al Sharpton is, or even the race factor.
Honestly, the biggest problem with this thread is it's not really discussion so much as a bunch of people twisting what everyone else says into their worldview. I think there are some legitimate issues that could be discussed here, but, especially after the last few pages, they're not going to happen here.
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
I think the point Nordling was trying to make is that all news is manufactured. Events occur, but they're not "news" until they are assigned a narrative and constructed for consumption.
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