The Koch Brothers, & the best post you'll never read.

[ACFFAN69]

Oh, damn, try as I might, I just can't make a serious reply to this ^^^^^^^^^ I do however want to point out a thing or two to you. (BTW this is one of those things someone does for someone other than themselves, - your post was most entertaining, I owe ya.)

You're far kinder than I am, I saw that post and another thread he made and just came to the conclusion he was a troll.

 

[camstory]

it is my opinion that any highly intelligent person who does not believe in global warming at this point must be mad as a fucking hatter. And, if not crazy, and not stupid, than it seems a stretch at best to think he believes the climate denial lies.

Global warming?

At least try to keep up on current terminology. :lol:

It's been 18 years since there was any credible warming which...

Not exactly a self fulfilling prophecy, but I'll take it. Nothing further...

 

[eyeteach]

Camstory, you've had what, eleven days to post this great insight into the Koch Bros. that no one else has access to and what's happened to it? You've come off as the typical, uber-liberal poster child. I purposely have not responded to this post until now hoping you would, at the very least, site references to claims that could be vetted; it's a great thing I never held my breath waiting for those sources because you have yet to show any. None. Not the tiniest scintilla of evidence. Quite frankly, you goose-step inline with the liberal thought that any discerning idea that opposes yours is wrong and can be simply be fixed by lying about it enough.

All I ask for are facts, let me give you just a few:

Global warming is bullshit. You know what global warming and climate change wa called just 100 years ago? It was called a season; you know what those are, right? Spring, summer, winter and fall. And if you live in the Southern U.S. You have two addition seasons: colege football and colege football signing day.
Militant Islam is a direct enemy of the liberal/progressive push and you're so blind to being the "touchy, feely, everything they do is okay" crowd that you don't understand that the first people the extremists are going to kill are homosexuals, followed by progressive women.
George Soros IS infinitely worse than you ever thout the Koch Bros. could be. How many US politicians has he bought off and how much damage, especially via the Affordable Care Act, has he done to the American public.
Someone before has already mentioned Fast and Furious, Benghazi, et al so there's really no need to go into all that again.

Those of us on the opposite side of your diatribe (myself included) can give you facts backed up with facts from independent sources supporting our debate, all I ask is that you do the same. And no, Rolling Stone magazine and wikipedia do not count as credible sources. It's been eleven days and we've yet to read your liberal, groundbreaking expose'; as we say down here, "Either shit or get off the pot."

 

[camstory]

Camstory, you've had what, eleven days to post this great insight into the Koch Bros. that no one else has access to and what's happened to it? You've come off as the typical, uber-liberal poster child. I purposely have not responded to this post until now hoping you would, at the very least, site references to claims that could be vetted; it's a great thing I never held my breath waiting for those sources because you have yet to show any. None. Not the tiniest scintilla of evidence. Quite frankly, you goose-step inline with the liberal thought that any discerning idea that opposes yours is wrong and can be simply be fixed by lying about it enough.

All I ask for are facts, let me give you just a few:

Global warming is bullshit. You know what global warming and climate change wa called just 100 years ago? It was called a season; you know what those are, right? Spring, summer, winter and fall. And if you live in the Southern U.S. You have two addition seasons: colege football and colege football signing day.
Militant Islam is a direct enemy of the liberal/progressive push and you're so blind to being the "touchy, feely, everything they do is okay" crowd that you don't understand that the first people the extremists are going to kill are homosexuals, followed by progressive women.
George Soros IS infinitely worse than you ever thout the Koch Bros. could be. How many US politicians has he bought off and how much damage, especially via the Affordable Care Act, has he done to the American public.
Someone before has already mentioned Fast and Furious, Benghazi, et al so there's really no need to go into all that again.

Those of us on the opposite side of your diatribe (myself included) can give you facts backed up with facts from independent sources supporting our debate, all I ask is that you do the same. And no, Rolling Stone magazine and wikipedia do not count as credible sources. It's been eleven days and we've yet to read your liberal, groundbreaking expose'; as we say down here, "Either shit or get off the pot."

Running late for Dr. rt now, but I will play the game. 4 now "the liberal thought that any discerning idea that opposes yours is wrong" & "Militant Islam is a direct enemy of the liberal/progressive push and you're so blind to being the "touchy, feely, everything they do is okay" crowd" & "And no, Rolling Stone magazineand wikipedia do not count as credible sources" -
1st: I'm not liberal on all things, and I am not sure of anything - therefore always open to consideration. &

I have never defended militant Islam, and I can not think of anyone, or any org that I think everything they do is okay. &

Sure Wiki is out, and won't use RS, but do you think RS editors would knowingly print unsupported info?

Maybe you do b/c if you really believe
"Global warming is bullshit. ... 100 years ago? It was called a season ... Spring, summer, winter and fall"
You're likely to believe anything.

GW/CC may never get bad & turn out to be much a do about near nothing, but man made or not, to believe our climate is not going through a change, really is fucking crazy, you know that right?

I'll be back to collect your hoops and jump throw them...

 

[JerryBoBerry]

and wikipedia do not count as credible sources.

Technically i disagree with this thinking. It's a generally held notion I know, but it's a decade out of date. There's been numerous studies that have shown wiki to be just as accurate as encyclopedia's. Some show it to be more accurate. Yes it's frowned upon for academia citing because it can be edited. But those changes are usually scrutinized and corrected if in error. And it tracks those changes for transparency. But the strong point is that citing wiki isn't really citing wiki. It's citing all the links of reference at the bottom of the page that are the source material used in the entry. Those have never been in question by anyone that I know of.

I'm okay with wikipedia as a credible source really.

 

[camstory]

and wikipedia do not count as credible sources.

Technically i disagree with this thinking. It's a generally held notion I know, but it's a decade out of date. There's been numerous studies that have shown wiki to be just as accurate as encyclopedia's. Some show it to be more accurate. Yes it's frowned upon for academia citing because it can be edited. But those changes are usually scrutinized and corrected if in error. And it tracks those changes for transparency. But the strong point is that citing wiki isn't really citing wiki. It's citing all the links of reference at the bottom of the page that are the source material used in the entry. Those have never been in question by anyone that I know of.

I'm okay with wikipedia as a credible source really.

Exactly Jerry - I too believe Wiki to be highly accurate. I had not seen any of the studies, but knew how it is structured, and it just makes sense that it would be very accurate. I am sure it is not always 100% inclusive/complete, but what is there I trust. But, this should be pretty easy even handicapped.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Exactly Jerry - I too believe Wiki to be highly accurate. I had not seen any of the studies, but knew how it is structured, and it just makes sense that it would be very accurate. I am sure it is not always 100% inclusive/complete, but what is there I trust. But, this should be pretty easy even handicapped.

http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

Basically the same but also mentions the sources it cites as the valuable source material.
http://library.blogs.delaware.gov/2013/05/05/is-wikipedia-a-reliable-source/

And here's a wiki with more detailed info on the study with info on pretty much all the studies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia

http://www.livescience.com/32950-how-accurate-is-wikipedia.html
From that link:

In 2005, the peer-reviewed journal Nature asked scientists to compare Wikipedia's scientific articles to those in Encyclopaedia Britannica—"the most scholarly of encyclopedias," according to its own Wiki page. The comparison resulted in a tie; both references contained four serious errors among the 42 articles analyzed by experts.

And last year, a study published in the Journal of Clinical Oncology found that Wikipedia had the same level of accuracy and depth in its articles about 10 types of cancer as the Physician Data Query, a professionally edited database maintained by the National Cancer Institute.

The self-described "free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" has fared similarly well in most other studies comparing its accuracy to conventional encyclopedias, including studies by The Guardian, PC Pro, Library Journal, the Canadian Library Association, and several peer-reviewed academic studies.
.
.
.
Life's Little Mysteries asked Adam Riess, professor of astronomy and physics at Johns Hopkins University and one of the scientists credited with proposing the existence of dark energy , to rate Wikipedia's "dark energy" entry.

"It's remarkably accurate," Riess said. "Certainly better than 95 percent correct."

This is not true, however, of the page about the indie pop band "Passion Pit," according to its drummer, Nate Donmoyer. Donmoyer found 10 factual errors on his band's page ranging from subtle to significant. Some information even appeared to have been added to the page by companies or organizations in search of publicity.

"It's kind of crazy," Donmoyer told LLM. "I don't think I can trust Wikipedia again. The littlest white lies can throw its whole validity off."

It may make sense that Wikipedia would have more reliable articles about academic topics than pop culture ones, considering that the latter are more prone to rumors and hearsay. On the other hand, there's no Passion Pit entry at all in Encyclopaedia Britannica. With more than three million English-language entries, Wikipedia very often wins our preference by default.

 

[camstory]

Ty Jerry. From phone, , fingers way to big. Funny, i had wondered if wiki might be best at academically documented subjects, than pop trivial type stuff, and excerpt suggests so.

I care nothing about pop stuff, and two ago had no idea who Kardashian was. At friend's was surprised to see B. Jenner on TV. His GF told me why. B.J. wiki pg says nothing about him racing moto cross in California in 78-79. Only ref close i have found is to announceing MX. But he did race novice, and prty sure intermediate/amateur before he gave it up. If anyone can find it, you can. (Jking, mention it b/c it's hard to imagine you are better energy guy than research dude, and wow would like to see you as Buffet research guy makkng 6 figures, instead of Koch guy).

Well sitting on can at buddy for too long typing this out. Will be too late by thd time i get home, so ,,, fuk,, old fuk i am CRS, but dude who thinks seasons and GW/CC are same, we'll have to make it a dozen days. (BTW a proper southern gentlemen avoids such degradation of the vernacular as fall, (to tumble to the ground), when what's meant is Autumn.) HahahAh joking what do i know bout being a gentlemen. Have Ur catchers gear on, cus I'll be pitching you references after some sleep.

 

[schlmoe]

This whole thread is typical camstory bullshit. Spouting off things he knows nothing about. What he doesn't know, he makes up, etc. When asked to cite facts and evidence, he uses Rolling Stone (that paragon of journalistic integrity :? )

In addition to all that and for no reason, he goes on to throw out racial insults when he can't prove his point:

I don't much like Filipinos.

So camstory, I challenge you to prove just one of your tinfoil conspiracy theories. Prove just one of your "statements of fact". Go ahead, put your man-panties on and show us that you're up to the challenge. I'd like you to start with this gem:

I off set that with the bonsai which I am growing hydroponically in my ass.

Money talks and bullshits walks, my friend.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

So camstory, I challenge you to prove just one of your tinfoil conspiracy theories. Prove just one of your "statements of fact". Go ahead, put your man-panties on and show us that you're up to the challenge.

I think maybe possibly Camstory was about to post this as to your challenge.
:whistle:

...so focus on the political manipulations of the Koch brothers that there has been very little attention paid to their horrendous and murderess environmental disregard.

...showed very clearly their continued disregard and destruction of the environment.

...the Koch brothers and the actions of Koch industries have cost innocent human lives

http://thetyee.ca/News/2011/03/22/KochBrothers/index.html

The Koch brothers appear to have also played an instigating role in the Wisconsin labour protests. Their company was one of the biggest funders of Republican governor Scott Walker's election campaign. Walker, once in office, proposed spending cuts targeting union benefits and bargaining rights, causing a massive public backlash.

Americans for Prosperity executives reportedly encouraged the labour showdown even before Walker was sworn in. The group is now working with policymakers and activists in Indiana, Ohio and Pennsylvania to slash their union spending.

While all this was happening, Americans for Prosperity was coordinating a public relations campaign to kill cap and trade in New Hampshire.

The Republican-dominated legislature had proposed a bill ejecting New Hampshire from the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, a 10-state coalition attempting to combat climate change.

During the lead-up to the vote, Americans for Prosperity paid for automated phone calls to citizens across the state, urging them to support the bill. It passed recently with a wide margin, effectively terminating New Hampshire's long-term climate change plan.

And that's not all, wrote AFP's Phil Kerpen afterwards. "In the process, it could deal the death blow to cap and trade both regionally and nationally."

That'd be a huge win for Koch Industries, which wouldn't have to worry about the high emissions caused by refining Alberta oil sands crude, at least until the next clean energy law was proposed.

In the meantime, the Koch brothers hope to consolidate political control over not just Congress, but the White House too. Watch for their hand in the next presidential election, where the Kochs plan to raise $88 million to advance a conservative agenda.

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...eae2020401d0bf098525689d00713ea5!OpenDocument

KOCH PETROLEUM GROUP SENTENCED FOR MINNESOTA POLLUTION
Koch Petroleum Group (Koch), which operates a refinery in Rosemount, Minn., was sentenced on March 1 to pay a $6 million criminal fine and pay an additional $2 million in remediation costs to the Dakota County Park System in U.S. District Court in Minneapolis. This is the largest federal environmental fine ever paid in Minnesota. The defendant was also ordered to serve three years probation. Koch previously pleaded guilty to violating the Clean Water Act (CWA). Koch admitted that it negligently discharged aviation fuel into a wetland and an adjoining waterway. Even though Koch was aware of the problem, it did not develop a comprehensive plan to recover between 200,000 - 600,000 gallons of released fuel until June 1997. In addition, the establishment of the system to recover the fuel destroyed a portion of the surrounding ecosystem and wildlife habitat. In a separate offense, Koch dumped a million gallons of wastewater with high ammonia content on the ground between November 1996 and March 1997 and also increased its flow of wastewater into the Mississippi River on weekends when Koch did not monitor its discharges. These actions allowed Koch to circumvent the weekly monitoring and reporting requirements of its wastewater discharge permit. The case was investigated by EPA’s Criminal Investigation Division, the FBI and the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency and was prosecuted by the U. S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Minnesota.

http://www.icis.com/Articles/2001/01/22/130888/doj-reduces-indictments-against-koch-industries.html

Last October, a federal grand jury in Corpus Christi had returned the initial indictment against Koch, charging the company with environmental crimes, chiefly regarding benzene emissions, at Koch Petroleum Group's West Plant refinery in that city (CMR, 10/9/2000, pg. 8).
...
The case stems from Koch's refinery operations in 1995, when its government-mandated limit on benzene releases was six metric tons for the year. Court documents note that in January, 1996, Sally Barnes-Soliz, a Koch employee who measured benzene releases at the site, told management that the plant had released 91 metric tons of benzene, well over the limit.

http://influenceexplorer.com/organization/koch-industries/6aab47626721430cb16834a0e29bbcc6


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/mar/30/us-oil-donated-millions-climate-sceptics

A Greenpeace investigation has identified a little-known, privately owned US oil company as the paymaster of global warming sceptics in the US and Europe.

The environmental campaign group accuses Kansas-based Koch Industries, which owns refineries and operates oil pipelines, of funding 35 conservative and libertarian groups, as well as more than 20 congressmen and senators. Between them, Greenpeace says, these groups and individuals have spread misinformation about climate science and led a sustained assault on climate scientists and green alternatives to fossil fuels.

Greenpeace says that Koch Industries donated nearly $48m (£31.8m) to climate opposition groups between 1997-2008. From 2005-2008, it donated $25m to groups opposed to climate change, nearly three times as much as higher-profile funders that time such as oil company ExxonMobil. Koch also spent $5.7m on political campaigns and $37m on direct lobbying to support fossil fuels.

In a hard-hitting report, which appears to confirm environmentalists' suspicions that there is a well-funded opposition to the science of climate change, Greenpeace accuses the funded groups of "spreading inaccurate and misleading information" about climate science and clean energy companies.

"The company's network of lobbyists, former executives and organisations has created a forceful stream of misinformation that Koch-funded entities produce and disseminate. The propaganda is then replicated, repackaged and echoed many times throughout the Koch-funded web of political front groups and thinktanks," said Greenpeace.

"Koch industries is playing a quiet but dominant role in the global warming debate. This private, out-of-sight corporation has become a financial kingpin of climate science denial and clean energy opposition. On repeated occasions organisations funded by Koch foundations have led the assault on climate science and scientists, 'green jobs', renewable energy and climate policy progress," it says.

http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/koch-industries-inc-oil-spills-settlement

Koch Industries, Inc. Oil Spills Settlement

Koch Industries Inc., will pay the largest civil fine ever imposed on a company under any federal environmental law to resolve claims related to more than 300 oil spills from its pipelines and oil facilities in six states, the Justice Department and the U.S. EPA announced. A settlement filed on January 13, 2000 requires Koch, the second-largest privately held company in the United States, to pay a $30 million civil penalty, improve its leak-prevention programs and spend $5 million on environmental projects.
The settlement filed in U.S. District Court in Houston resolves two lawsuits in Houston and Tulsa, Okla., which charge that Koch illegally discharged crude oil and petroleum products in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, Louisiana and Alabama. The State of Texas joined the United States in suing Koch, and the $30 million penalty will be divided equally between Texas and the federal government.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000186


http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/1998/par9802s.pdf


You'll notice there was no Rolling Stone citation in there.

 

[zippypinhead]

As a piece of investigative journalism, the Rolling Stone article seems to stand as valid, anyway.

 

[Sevrin]

Further reading from the pinkos at CBS.

In May, 2001, Bill Koch and Koch Industries announced a legal settlement of all their disputes, effectively putting an end to the two-decade family feud. The settlement calls for Koch Industries to pay $25 million in penalties to the U.S. government for improperly taking more oil than it paid for from federal and Indian lands. About a third of it goes to Bill Koch or bringing the lawsuit.

Koch industries has faced other troubles with the government since the original broadcast in November. In April, Koch’s Petroleum Group was fined 20 million dollars after it released huge amounts of cancer-causing benzene from a Texas refinery and then tried to cover it up.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/blood-and-oil/

There's little to distinguish the Koch brothers from the current oligarchs in control of Russia. Which is no coincidence.

http://exiledonline.com/a-peoples-histo ... -movement/

 

[schlmoe]

I think that since maybe possibly I don't understand sarcasm, I'll post a lot of cool looking charts and stuff

The same people who write about Justin Bieber's underpants are really really really good writers

I pity da fools

 

[zippypinhead]

:roll:

 

[camstory]

You know Joe, this is the fourth time this has happened, and it has left me wondering each time. I have always called you on it b/c for close to 3 years now I felt we had something more than a simple familiarity of place; first here, and then at twitter, where, with the exception of the three previous personal attacks, our relationship was what I would have called a friendship. The first time I called you on your assault, I asked, if you were mad at me. You replied, that if you were mad at me, I would know it, and you didn't mean anything by the tweet in question. Another time you said you were joking, and I should have known that by the “” which you had always thought indicated a joke. Even so, I could see no humour in it.

Each time has been separated by roughly 4 or 5 months of fun & witty banter/sparing where most often the round did not clearly go to one or the other, and when it clearly did, I happily tipped my hat to you, and felt you did the same to me. Your vocabulary and creativity with language are formidable to say the least. When I have bettered you, it has mostly been when you left your guard down and I caught you with a homeboy hook that you didn't see coming. But all, with noted exception, has been friendly and fun IMO.

It's this feeling of friendship that has set me to reply to this most recent attack, and has as before, left me very perplexed? With no obvious precursor I am left to guess what triggers it – one conclusion that has jumped out at me, is that these are the angry vents of a deeply bitter man who has drank one too many. But I do not even know if you drink b/c through all the tweets, post, DMs, & PM, I have never heard you make any personal reference to drinking. That has lead me to believe you don't drink, though I guess it could also indicate denial of a problem with drinking. Really the trigger is not so important, but is puzzling to me, and as far as I know might be as puzzling to you?

What ever it is, I am sure it is not this thread, or my post in general. Just recently one of your post eluded to Camstory's long winded Blah,Blah,Blah post that made some very good points. (Any one familiar with my posting style knows I tend to be long on garnish getting to the course.) You know, or I think you do, that I am sincere about what I post, and believe what I post to be the truth as best I know. The idea that I make up, or lie about shit I only give mention of that its absences might be interpreted as having been over looked for some reason other than the correct interpretation - that it is so ridiculous it warrants no mention. The racist slur you quoted me on, I think in context is pretty clearly an obvious joke. You know I am as close as humanly possible free of bigoted attitudes, and do not particularly dislike Filipinos.

On the Koch brothers & Koch Industries I have spent many hours in the last month reading. I have also watched two full length docs, and many clips of the Koch's themselves, their opponents, and their supporters. (All of which I understand may be biased one direction or the other, and I have tried to only post statements that seemed to be of a consistent nature throughout.) Often in those readings, and some in the videos, references were sited, but one does not stop at every reference point to verify content validity. As, I have promised I will retrieve what references I need to, to support my beliefs. If you have any particular statements that you feel I have not answered to after that, I will address them.

But again, I do not think this about the Koch's, or your anger that I have slandered them without justification. You yourself have said you do not support much of what they do.

I do not know from where your anger comes, or what triggers it. I am sorry it has come to this, I really did enjoy the friendship, and also some sound guidance a time or two.

I also must say one final thing. And I will not use the bullshit excuse that I am saying it for your own good. Though I do believe it is an obvious fact, it is also admittedly my selfish hurt ego prompting me to retaliate – sad but true.

If there is some bitterness in you that you control no better in the RW, it might be something you should work on, b/c IMhO if you don't, you are destine to die a bitter lonely man.

Sorry Joe, it may be a combination of me being too sensitive, and you being too cutting, yet meaning no real harm, but being called a liar, a racist, and someone who has no conviction or sense of what he is talking about, all seem to be personal attacks on who I am, and not about what I believe. The latter, for me, a reasonable expectation, and fundamental to a vigorous debate. The former just feels like a cheap shot, aimed to injure, and in no way constructive.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

I think that since maybe possibly I don't understand sarcasm, I'll post a lot of cool looking charts and stuff

I'm not sure why you even bring up sarcasm. There was none in your post, simply rudeness.

So either you don't understand sarcasm, or...

For the record. I'm not being sarcastic. Truth be told I was going to argue against camstory, but after seeing the way you rudely reacted I came in on his side. Just cause I like doing that.