The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethics!

[LadyLuna]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

Judging by those my best guess is that initially after making it legal there would be a dramatic rise in usage. But once the 'party' phase is over it's usage would actually diminish to lower than what it is today. I'll specifically point out the Netherlands. It's a place where usage for cannabis, and other drugs, is legal, yet they have lower usage than the rest of the European Union where it is not.

You legalise it, people/businesses will want to tap into the market. Supply will increase dramatically unless its licensed. Generally if supply increases prices will drop. Sure you can tax it, but tax is normally on the price or markup. So basically you can sell more for less as you can grow more. Shifting workers from "productive" jobs to pot planting isnt good for the economy.

Right, because the million or so unemployed people finally having a place to work in the US is going to be bad for the economy... people don't need jobs! How dare we suggest making more!

 

[Brad]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

Apologies, my post was in response to Brad's seeming disregard of the idea of studies.

My apologies to you LadyLuna as it appears that I didn't do a very good job of conveying what I meant. What I meant by my statement was that I would like to hear the opinions and experiences of you and the other members here rather then see the thread just become a bunch of links to various studies. Pot is such a touchy subject and I believe that in many instances studies are done in a way that almost guarantees a specific outcome. I did not mean any offense to you or any of the other members here.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

Judging by those my best guess is that initially after making it legal there would be a dramatic rise in usage. But once the 'party' phase is over it's usage would actually diminish to lower than what it is today. I'll specifically point out the Netherlands. It's a place where usage for cannabis, and other drugs, is legal, yet they have lower usage than the rest of the European Union where it is not.

You legalise it, people/businesses will want to tap into the market. Supply will increase dramatically unless its licensed. Generally if supply increases prices will drop. Sure you can tax it, but tax is normally on the price or markup. So basically you can sell more for less as you can grow more. Shifting workers from "productive" jobs to pot planting isnt good for the economy.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-06/a ... se/3761106

The main cost in cigarettes seems to be the tax. But that brings me back to my point I mentioned earlier about taxing marijuana. If people are willing to pay that high of tax without resorting to black market on cigarettes, then marijuana taxation would be quite the source of revenue. If this were channeled into social programs to encourage people to get off the drug (much like the anti-cigarette atmosphere here in the U.S.) the usage would go down according to that analogy.

Cost of legal ciggys vs cost of black market ciggys. Sure you can grow it and its cheap, but if its readily available and in multiple varietys why would you bother? I mean how many people actually grow their own vegetables..If we all did it would be a lot cheaper but not all of us do.

People are willing to pay a high price for ciggys because its addictive. The high price is there to deter new smokers and not existing ones. It just ruins the lives of existing smokers to some extent, as try and get the cash to buy ciggys. Imagine all the robberies, muggings due to the high cost of cigarrettes? It is a false belief to think that legalising something like marijuana will reduce the crime rate (in real numbers terms it may but all you are doing is increasing severity of the crime).

Comparing the Netherlands to rest of the Europe, is a bit like comparing Afghanistan to USA. The main reason why cannabis usage in Netherlands is low, is because of their culture and environment rather than the legal status of marijuana. As I said, its the culture that matters. Australia has one of the highest % usage of cannabis in the world, it has nothing to do with marijuana being illegal, its simply the culture (and its a bad one).

To me competing industries are why it's illegal, it has nothing to do with getting high. Anyway I look at it I think it's just bad legislation that never should have been put into place in the first place.

For sure! YOu want productive industries that add value to the nation. But to suggest there will be an increase in tax revenue is wishful thinking. Tax is all politics and is rarely about economics.

I stand by everything I wrote. I don't even know where to stop shaking my head and begin at your reply's, so I'm not going to bother. :hand:

 

[Aella]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I have no issue with pot or potsmokers. I am absolutely for legalization, and frequently hang around people high out of their minds.

But I personally don't like it or what it does to my brain, and sometimes I have trouble understanding people who smoke it regularly for reasons other than health benefits (which I definitely believe exist and are important). I find myself unable to think clearly, like my brain suddenly got really tired without actually feeling tired, and that feeling is incredibly uncomfortable to me. It's like the world suddenly got blurry, like I lost my glasses.

I've lately been trying to understand what sort of reaction it has in others' brains in regards to their thought patterns. If it clouds your thoughts, how can you enjoy not thinking clearly? Or does it do different things to your thoughts? I've heard some people say it helps them think *more* clearly, and others say that not thinking is the entire point. Others say it just relaxes their emotions.

I'm mainly just trying to figure out the relationship between enjoyment of pot and the effect it has on thought clarity. Are the two related?

Again - completely not judging here. I adore alcohol and it's not like eight shots of vodka have ever been known to produce an Einstein.

Though that's another thing. I don't understand why I like what alcohol does to my brain, but not pot. I think for me alcohol is like putting on sunglasses in a darkened room, while pot is just losing the glasses you need to drive. I don't know. I'm really confused about this.

What is it like for you? How is thought clarity with alcohol different than thought clarity on pot?

And I'm referring to like... if someone sat you down while you were super drunk/high and then asked you for personal advice on a really complicated and difficult relationship matter? Or asked you to solve a logic problem?

How does your brain function, depending on the source of intoxication and the type of thinking involved with the question?

 

[Brad]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I have no issue with pot or potsmokers. I am absolutely for legalization, and frequently hang around people high out of their minds.

But I personally don't like it or what it does to my brain, and sometimes I have trouble understanding people who smoke it regularly for reasons other than health benefits (which I definitely believe exist and are important). I find myself unable to think clearly, like my brain suddenly got really tired without actually feeling tired, and that feeling is incredibly uncomfortable to me. It's like the world suddenly got blurry, like I lost my glasses.

I've lately been trying to understand what sort of reaction it has in others' brains in regards to their thought patterns. If it clouds your thoughts, how can you enjoy not thinking clearly? Or does it do different things to your thoughts? I've heard some people say it helps them think *more* clearly, and others say that not thinking is the entire point. Others say it just relaxes their emotions.

I'm mainly just trying to figure out the relationship between enjoyment of pot and the effect it has on thought clarity. Are the two related?

Again - completely not judging here. I adore alcohol and it's not like eight shots of vodka have ever been known to produce an Einstein.

Though that's another thing. I don't understand why I like what alcohol does to my brain, but not pot. I think for me alcohol is like putting on sunglasses in a darkened room, while pot is just losing the glasses you need to drive. I don't know. I'm really confused about this.

What is it like for you? How is thought clarity with alcohol different than thought clarity on pot?

And I'm referring to like... if someone sat you down while you were super drunk/high and then asked you for personal advice on a really complicated and difficult relationship matter? Or asked you to solve a logic problem?

How does your brain function, depending on the source of intoxication and the type of thinking involved with the question?

Great questions!

I am much more functional under the influence of pot then of alcohol. I do not use pot in a manner that gets me real high. I use smaller amounts throughout the day to help manage my pain. I also may use it before bed if I have trouble sleeping. It also is helpful when I have an upset stomach. Alcohol did dull pain but other then drinking enough to pass out it never helped me sleep and it never settled my stomach.

Most of my pain is from a lower back injury/damage. I also have a prescription for Norco (acetaminophen/hydrocodone) 10mg pills. I rarely use both and prefer the pot for my pain relief. It doesn't seem to cloud my head as I have done many different tasks both high and not high over the past 33 years. It does dull my reflexes but not near as severe as alcohol does and my body seems to automatically compensate for it.

I also have a mind that can race at times. Pot settles that down which is probably why it helps me sleep and may be what others refer to as helping them focus or think better. But I also only smoke the basic stuff. Normal street grade swag. Not sure what to call it but it is NOT like the high grade stuff sold by dispensaries. It is simply an economic choice for me. Never preferred the high end stuff but I do have a few friends that prefer it and smoke it with me or will give me some now and then.


Pot also has helped me emotionally especially if I am really pissed off about something. It's real hard to be mad when you smoke pot, or at least for me that's the case. The effect on me is very comparable to taking a Xanax except that the pot doesn't hit me as hard as the Xanax does. (I've only taken Xanax a few times here and there so I am not a regular user of it by any means)

My logic skills are the same with or without pot. I spent a number of years getting my engineering degree because I was also working full time to support our family. I took tests and wrote papers both high and sober. Grades were the same. If I was drunk then the grades were usually not so good. Thankfully I rarely did school work while drunk but I never noticed a huge difference when high. I am probably somewhat slower and may take a bit more time to think through a question but the outcome appears to be the same.

Having done plenty of both I can say that for myself there is no comparison between alcohol and pot. For me the alcohol is a far stronger drug with more limitations and downfalls. But I have also lost quite a few friends due to alcohol so I am rather biased. I haven't lost any due to pot yet.
:thumbleft:

 

[Rose]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

How does your brain function, depending on the source of intoxication and the type of thinking involved with the question?

For me, I can still function after I've toked. I wouldn't get behind the wheel, but if you asked my advice on a situation, I could most likely give you a reasonable answer and my feelings/thoughts would be the same if I was sober. Granted, I almost never smoke to the point where all I do is sit and giggle. I prefer having my wits about me at all times so I know where I am and what's going on. If I don't, then I get panicky and things go downhill.

That's why I'm not such a fan of alcohol. I guess I take after my dad in that sense because I can only either be sober, tipsy or black out drunk. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground in there regardless of what and how much I drink. Anything past tipsy and I just can't remember what's happened.... :? That is extremely disturbing for me. If I am going to drink, I prefer a white russian, heavy on the milk, easy on the booze, and 3 is my limit. I actually prefer to not even get to the tipsy point because then my short term memory gets REALLY fuzzy and my judgement just doesn't work the same.

With narcotics, well..... shit is just bad. I have trouble remembering anything, my name included, I can't drive at all, it's a wonder I can get out of bed and function and 90% of the time I'm still in extreme amounts of pain. Being out of your mind and still in pain is not a good combination. Think, "ZOMG there's purple spiders on the ceiling and they're coming to get me! I can't run away because it feels like there are knives in my stomach!! Help!!!" :shock: :? Plus narcotics have a tendency to make you constipated, therefore confounding the first problem.... No, just no.

Pot is the only thing that leaves me in control of my motor skills, allows me the greatest amount of dexterity, my memory still works and my thoughts are generally the same as if I were sober, though I do tend to lean a bit more towards the creative side. My reaction times are impaired, but not to the extent that it takes me a minute to blink if you throw something at me. I just kind of walk a bit slower and blink less.

Granted, I haven't touched either of those 3 substances in about a year now so my memory of what exactly each does to me is a bit fuzzy. The important part is that in terms of negative affects on my body: pot is the least bad and alcohol and narcotics are almost tied with narcotics being the absolute worst. I only dabble in any of the substances when I need help with pain relief anyways. I generally don't find myself partaking just for fun though I see nothing wrong with a weekend blunt or an evening drink. I just don't care to take it past the point of barely a warm fuzzy.

I hope any of that makes sense....Lol. I went a little scatter brained halfway through because I got distracted trying to write my grocery list.

 

[Just Me]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

Apologies, my post was in response to Brad's seeming disregard of the idea of studies.

My apologies to you LadyLuna as it appears that I didn't do a very good job of conveying what I meant. What I meant by my statement was that I would like to hear the opinions and experiences of you and the other members here rather then see the thread just become a bunch of links to various studies. Pot is such a touchy subject and I believe that in many instances studies are done in a way that almost guarantees a specific outcome. I did not mean any offense to you or any of the other members here.

I like to hear peoples experiences with these type of things as well, but you are downplaying studies. Just because your experience is different doesn't mean the study is invalid or trying for a specific outcome. Science doesn't work that way. You ask a question and run the experiments, and while scientists are human too and might have agendas, the vast majority do not try or hope for a specific outcome. Those that do, generally will not get published because other scientists look for those biases.

I am a living, breathing 30+ year study. I thought I made that pretty clear in sharing my experiences. Would you rather hear the truth from someone who has lived it or do you just want to discuss random studies done by a bunch of nerds in lab coats?

There is someone out there with 30+ years experience that will have the complete opposite experience you have had. What makes their experience any less valid than yours? The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[LadyLuna]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

JustMe: While I mostly agree with you in general, in the cast of Pot the studies are questionable at best, and outright ludicrous most of the time. As was mentioned before, they never supply the pot themselves, so they are relying on a drug that at the present can't be relied upon. The ones with bad effects, how do we know that those bad effects aren't from what the weed was cut with? The ones without bad effects, we don't know if possibly the stuff that the weed was cut with actually helped offset negative effects. We have no way of knowing any of that, unless studies start supplying their own pot.

As things stand, the best we can say about the pot studies is that they ARE a plural of anecdotes.

Then again, I also believe that this situation applies to any and all medical studies. When caffeine has a calming effect on people with ADHD, and milk can make some people sick, why are we so set on saying that anything has one effect on everybody? Absolutely any substance on this planet can be abused to the point where it's harmful. A person who spends all day drinking water, even if they are fed intravenously with all the nutrients they need, will kill themselves with water poisoning. Yes, water poisoning exists. And yet there are no calls to ban the drinking of water, because we need it for life to continue.

It is stupid to say "some people abuse it, so it should be illegal." It is stupid to say "it hurts some people to use any amount of it, so it should be illegal." When it comes to how a certain person will react to various things, generalizations are useless. The ONLY thing studies can reveal is what to look for to see if a reaction is a bad one, and what is likely to happen if a person does have a bad reaction to the tested substance. And to find out if physical addiction is likely. Not guaranteed, it's never guaranteed, because there's a percentage of the population that could smoke crack without becoming addicted. But likely.

Studies are for doctors and scientists. Studies are for people who are debating if they should use it for themselves or not. Studies (about drugs and such) are NOT for lawmakers, NOT for people determining if the average person should use it or not.

 

[SweepTheLeg]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I don't do it, I don't care if others do. it should be legal. But good god, do I hate the sub culture that it has created.

 

[trotskyleon]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

Judging by those my best guess is that initially after making it legal there would be a dramatic rise in usage. But once the 'party' phase is over it's usage would actually diminish to lower than what it is today. I'll specifically point out the Netherlands. It's a place where usage for cannabis, and other drugs, is legal, yet they have lower usage than the rest of the European Union where it is not.

You legalise it, people/businesses will want to tap into the market. Supply will increase dramatically unless its licensed. Generally if supply increases prices will drop. Sure you can tax it, but tax is normally on the price or markup. So basically you can sell more for less as you can grow more. Shifting workers from "productive" jobs to pot planting isnt good for the economy.

Right, because the million or so unemployed people finally having a place to work in the US is going to be bad for the economy... people don't need jobs! How dare we suggest making more!

Legalising marijuana will not create a million jobs. IT may not create jobs at all. All I am saying there will be a shift, instead of having x workers in one industry you might, half in that industry and the other half in pot growing business. This is not how you create jobs!

 

[Rebecca Buck]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I have no issue with pot or potsmokers. I am absolutely for legalization, and frequently hang around people high out of their minds.

But I personally don't like it or what it does to my brain, and sometimes I have trouble understanding people who smoke it regularly for reasons other than health benefits (which I definitely believe exist and are important). I find myself unable to think clearly, like my brain suddenly got really tired without actually feeling tired, and that feeling is incredibly uncomfortable to me. It's like the world suddenly got blurry, like I lost my glasses.

I've lately been trying to understand what sort of reaction it has in others' brains in regards to their thought patterns. If it clouds your thoughts, how can you enjoy not thinking clearly? Or does it do different things to your thoughts? I've heard some people say it helps them think *more* clearly, and others say that not thinking is the entire point. Others say it just relaxes their emotions.

I'm mainly just trying to figure out the relationship between enjoyment of pot and the effect it has on thought clarity. Are the two related?

Again - completely not judging here. I adore alcohol and it's not like eight shots of vodka have ever been known to produce an Einstein.

Though that's another thing. I don't understand why I like what alcohol does to my brain, but not pot. I think for me alcohol is like putting on sunglasses in a darkened room, while pot is just losing the glasses you need to drive. I don't know. I'm really confused about this.

What is it like for you? How is thought clarity with alcohol different than thought clarity on pot?

And I'm referring to like... if someone sat you down while you were super drunk/high and then asked you for personal advice on a really complicated and difficult relationship matter? Or asked you to solve a logic problem?

How does your brain function, depending on the source of intoxication and the type of thinking involved with the question?

I haven't read past this yet, I just wanna write down my answers!

I've been smoking since I was 18. And the last two years have been near daily.

For me, the high has changed over time. At first, I would get really silly. And depending on if it was an indica or sativa, I would sometimes even hallucinate slightly. Nothing ever really serious, but I did one time see a stampede of about 100 black cats just scurry across the road on my way home one night.

I'm an anxious person. I think a lot and my brain is really loud, with what seems like a ton of different voices and thoughts all buzzing around at once. When I smoke, all those thoughts become ONE thought, usually prefaced with "Well, I'm high now."

But then I can relax. I get this feeling in my stomach almost like nervousness when going in for a job interview or something. I become really analytical of lots of things and I sit there and I contemplate the hidden meaning in whatever movie or show is on. I will sit there and literally pick apart the movie frame by frame and think to myself about why the photographer composed the shot that way, or what the significance of the lighting represents or is supposed to evoke. I tend to appreciate movies more.

Sometimes however that one thought can be incredibly negative, which led to my panic attacks. I don't smoke by myself anymore unless it's a very small hit because I have to be distracted by other warm bodies in the room.

Lately I've been forcing myself to meditate more, which I believe is a useful skill to know when smoking, especially if you're one who panics easily when mentally impaired (I sometimes get like that.)

I have to remind myself that this is temporary, and that I am not the product of my thoughts and desires as long as I don't act on them. I forgive myself for feeling bad or being negative, and I thank myself for allowing myself to relax and have some fun. A lot of my problems before came from guilt and fear about a lot of things in my life. And when I have a lot of guilt and fear and regret, I can't smoke until I work those problems out before hand.

I honestly would really love to be some sort of modern-age shaman when I am older. I would like to guide and advise new smokers or people experimenting in expanding their horizons. I want to be knowledgeable in the effects and experiences of someone smoking weed, help them learn coping techniques for bad trips, be the designated 'spirit guide' for someone trying DMT, ayahuasca, magic mushrooms, salvia, and other natural hallucinogenics. I want to be knowledgeable in the correct dosage and the history of the substance.

On a somewhat related note: Has anyone here seen DMT: The Spirit Molecule on Netflix? It's very very interesting! I tried DMT about a year ago, and from the very brief trip that I had (Like no more than about 15 seconds) I felt I got a glimpse of our entire galaxy, as if I was peeking from underneath the floorboards of my consciousness. If that makes sense.

Man, now I want to go dig out my Terrence McKenna books...

Judging by those my best guess is that initially after making it legal there would be a dramatic rise in usage. But once the 'party' phase is over it's usage would actually diminish to lower than what it is today. I'll specifically point out the Netherlands. It's a place where usage for cannabis, and other drugs, is legal, yet they have lower usage than the rest of the European Union where it is not.

You legalise it, people/businesses will want to tap into the market. Supply will increase dramatically unless its licensed. Generally if supply increases prices will drop. Sure you can tax it, but tax is normally on the price or markup. So basically you can sell more for less as you can grow more. Shifting workers from "productive" jobs to pot planting isnt good for the economy.

Right, because the million or so unemployed people finally having a place to work in the US is going to be bad for the economy... people don't need jobs! How dare we suggest making more!

Legalising marijuana will not create a million jobs. IT may not create jobs at all. All I am saying there will be a shift, instead of having x workers in one industry you might, half in that industry and the other half in pot growing business. This is not how you create jobs!

The weed industry has growers, clippers, guards, drivers, shop owners, pipe makers, artists, bakers... There are a TON of jobs in the industry already that would only grow if made legal.

Futhermore, if weed was decriminalized and legalized, it would no longer be a crime to possess, grow or sell it, meaning that all those poor young usually black men in prison right now who've been in there for nothing more than small-time possesssion (Usually $20 or less) or selling (To feed their family because they can't work and food stamps don't stretch that far) means that prisons will be less crowded.

Studies are for doctors and scientists. Studies are for people who are debating if they should use it for themselves or not. Studies (about drugs and such) are NOT for lawmakers, NOT for people determining if the average person should use it or not.

To add to this point, I have the same reasoning for legalizing marijuana as I do for making sure abortion is safe and accessible: You don't know me, you don't know my body, you don't have any right to dictate what I do to my body whether it is good or bad, and therefor you should not be able to pass legislation telling me what I can and cannot do with my body.

 

[Brad]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

JustMe: While I mostly agree with you in general, in the cast of Pot the studies are questionable at best, and outright ludicrous most of the time.

Thank you LadyLuna, you saved me from saying the exact same thing. I can't agree more and that was the point I was (poorly) trying to make.
:hello1:

I will try and explain why any studies on pot use are very questionable in my eyes. From a long time user/dealer I can say that many of the studies I have read are laughable. Like a young child writing a report on physics for a science professor would be. Totally laughable stuff that no person with any experience would actually believe. Plus I can't begin to say how may times I have seen the over valuation of pot by people with no clue. "Police confiscated $10,000,000 in pot today" might be the headline or news lead-in then they say the amount (weight) and we all laugh. The old rule of thumb was that they would even value 1000 pounds at the lowest street price possible (per 1/4 ounce for instance) which always made that dollar amount nice and big. Do you really think I would ever trust studies done by people like this? I can go on and on about garbage like this that I read and hear. This is what I mean by I do not want to hear about "studies" as I have seen too many bad ones and all it becomes is a war of "my study is more factual then yours." I want this thread to be better then that. I want to be able to talk openly and honestly here about the reality of pot use.
:-D

There is someone out there with 30+ years experience that will have the complete opposite experience you have had. What makes their experience any less valid than yours? The plural of anecdote is not data.

Nothing at all. I think you have totally missed my point or I am not doing a good enough job of stating it if you really think that I wouldn't hold the experiences of someone else as valid. You actually just described exactly what I do want to hear. I want to hear the experience of others and if they have a different experience then mine that is great. Let's discuss it together and learn from one another. How is this not better then just tossing links to contradictory studies back and forth? I enjoy this board because I enjoy the vast opinions here. I mean this as a compliment to everyone here including you. I want to know what you have seen, think, experienced with pot. I can read studies anywhere. Plus studies sometimes tend to minimize the overall human experience of an issue.
:thumbleft:

 

[Brad]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

Legalising marijuana will not create a million jobs. IT may not create jobs at all. All I am saying there will be a shift, instead of having x workers in one industry you might, half in that industry and the other half in pot growing business. This is not how you create jobs!

You will have to explain this to me as I don't get it. How can half of x workers just leave one industry for another and not be replaced. Wouldn't the original industry still need workers? I would never try and put a specific number on it but yes, legalizing pot would create jobs in the private sector. May need a few less prison guards and parole officers though.


I will tell you that the majority of full time drug dealers won't just go legit either. They'll deal something else instead or since many already do they will just shift their focus. Most dealers I have known (and there have been a lot) don't want to work a "real job". I was a part time dealer which is totally different in the drug world. I mostly sold pot but I also sold coke, mushrooms, hash, opium, and LSD too from time to time. Not proud, not ashamed, it's just a part of my history.
:confusion-shrug:

I am not telling everyone that pot is great and they all need to use it. I don't believe that. I believe it is great for me and great for many other people too. My problem with it is I don't see where the government has the right to keep it controlled as an illegal substance. THAT is where I will gladly point to many other items that can cause the same, or many times much worse harm on our society but are not illegal. I don't trust the government and I don't like them telling me I can't grow a few plants because it made some rich newspaper magnet nervous almost a century ago.

cannabis is a Schedule I drug according to the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, which classified cannabis as having high potential for abuse, no medical use, and not safe to use without medical supervision.

Now really, do any of you here honestly believe the above statement? I don't!
:angry-soapbox:

 

[AwesomeKate]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I'm so high right now.

 

[Rebecca Buck]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I'm so high right now.

 

[AwesomeKate]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I did, in fact, laugh out loud.

Nova nova nova....watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPpUNAFHgxM

 

[Just Me]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

JustMe: While I mostly agree with you in general, in the cast of Pot the studies are questionable at best, and outright ludicrous most of the time.

Thank you LadyLuna, you saved me from saying the exact same thing. I can't agree more and that was the point I was (poorly) trying to make.
:hello1:

I will try and explain why any studies on pot use are very questionable in my eyes. From a long time user/dealer I can say that many of the studies I have read are laughable. Like a young child writing a report on physics for a science professor would be. Totally laughable stuff that no person with any experience would actually believe. Plus I can't begin to say how may times I have seen the over valuation of pot by people with no clue. "Police confiscated $10,000,000 in pot today" might be the headline or news lead-in then they say the amount (weight) and we all laugh. The old rule of thumb was that they would even value 1000 pounds at the lowest street price possible (per 1/4 ounce for instance) which always made that dollar amount nice and big. Do you really think I would ever trust studies done by people like this? I can go on and on about garbage like this that I read and hear. This is what I mean by I do not want to hear about "studies" as I have seen too many bad ones and all it becomes is a war of "my study is more factual then yours." I want this thread to be better then that. I want to be able to talk openly and honestly here about the reality of pot use.
:-D

There is someone out there with 30+ years experience that will have the complete opposite experience you have had. What makes their experience any less valid than yours? The plural of anecdote is not data.

Nothing at all. I think you have totally missed my point or I am not doing a good enough job of stating it if you really think that I wouldn't hold the experiences of someone else as valid. You actually just described exactly what I do want to hear. I want to hear the experience of others and if they have a different experience then mine that is great. Let's discuss it together and learn from one another. How is this not better then just tossing links to contradictory studies back and forth? I enjoy this board because I enjoy the vast opinions here. I mean this as a compliment to everyone here including you. I want to know what you have seen, think, experienced with pot. I can read studies anywhere. Plus studies sometimes tend to minimize the overall human experience of an issue.
:thumbleft:

That is the complete opposite of what studies do. Personal experiences of a few people, i.e anecdotes, is what tends to minimize the overall human experience. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to minimize your personal story. I like to hear peoples personal stories too.

Your point was not missed. Mine was, and continues to be missed. You talk about wanting to know personal experiences, you do realize that most of these studies are made up of personal experiences of hundreds ,thousands and even millions of people? You can't just throw out studies or say they are wrong because they don't agree with your personal experience. These epidemiological studies are the same ones done on tobacco, alcohol, heart disease, and a myriad of other diseases. Should we claim those studies are all wrong and not done correctly? I know, as we all do, many people who smoked tobacco or drank alcohol all their life and had no ill effects. Should we claim there are no harmful effects to doing either of those?

 

[Just Me]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

:lol: OMG I could not resist posting this after reading a little Reddit. Maybe this is the problem with getting things legalized. I honestly do not understand this type of hypocrisy.

Medical Marijuana-Hating Assemblyman Caught With Marijuana Gets Charges Dismissed

 

[LuckySmiles]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I useta to smoke alot of the pots. I don't like it as much anymore but I don't hate it. I'll have some if you have some.
I would like to see less people in jail over it. I haven't forgotten that privately owned jails are a profitable business that exist. But I'm too lazy to turn on the google machine. And this might be the residual potheadness speaking but isn't there something about hemp? Don't the marijuana laws in the U.S. have a great deal to do with that? Like a 100 years ago Because someone was going to get screwed out of money? Did I make that up? Was I high?

Seriously though, call me old fashioned, but aren't 90% of the laws in America about money? And don't the people who stand to make the most or lose the most, basically control those laws? With their money? Did I miss something? Do people not know that yet?

Oh wait I forgot we make the laws riiiiight.
Find me 10 random (no poly-sci majors) Americans who can name at least one congress person and senator from their area and I might consider believing in that gibberish again.

maybe I'm still just another stoner revolutionary at heart. :handgestures-salute:

Lucky for prez yo... lucky for prez... blunts and titties blunts and titties.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I have no issue with pot or potsmokers. I am absolutely for legalization, and frequently hang around people high out of their minds.

But I personally don't like it or what it does to my brain, and sometimes I have trouble understanding people who smoke it regularly for reasons other than health benefits (which I definitely believe exist and are important). I find myself unable to think clearly, like my brain suddenly got really tired without actually feeling tired, and that feeling is incredibly uncomfortable to me. It's like the world suddenly got blurry, like I lost my glasses.

I've lately been trying to understand what sort of reaction it has in others' brains in regards to their thought patterns. If it clouds your thoughts, how can you enjoy not thinking clearly? Or does it do different things to your thoughts? I've heard some people say it helps them think *more* clearly, and others say that not thinking is the entire point. Others say it just relaxes their emotions.

I'm mainly just trying to figure out the relationship between enjoyment of pot and the effect it has on thought clarity. Are the two related?

Again - completely not judging here. I adore alcohol and it's not like eight shots of vodka have ever been known to produce an Einstein.

Though that's another thing. I don't understand why I like what alcohol does to my brain, but not pot. I think for me alcohol is like putting on sunglasses in a darkened room, while pot is just losing the glasses you need to drive. I don't know. I'm really confused about this.

What is it like for you? How is thought clarity with alcohol different than thought clarity on pot?

And I'm referring to like... if someone sat you down while you were super drunk/high and then asked you for personal advice on a really complicated and difficult relationship matter? Or asked you to solve a logic problem?

How does your brain function, depending on the source of intoxication and the type of thinking involved with the question?

When I smoke/vape, it helps me focus on what I'm doing. Instead of a million random thoughts I can concentrate better on whatever it is I'm doing. I can't do shit when I drink except be loud and annoying. I have awful judgement when drinking.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

You can't just throw out studies or say they are wrong because they don't agree with your personal experience.

The anti marijuana crowd has no problem doing this, been doing it for years.

 

[Just Me]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

You can't just throw out studies or say they are wrong because they don't agree with your personal experience.

The anti marijuana crowd has no problem doing this, been doing it for years.

So with that logic, we should throw out all studies and science and stick with personal experience. :thumbleft:

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

 

[Shaun__]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

Has anyone else ever noticed how the anti-legalization crowd often speaks of studies, but ignores the ones their gut feelings disagree with? It shows what they really oppose is people liking things they dislike.

I came to this realization as I was throwing up my antiemetic medicine yesterday, along with my Cheerios.

Ponies puke rainbows.

 

[Rose]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

Has anyone else ever noticed how the anti-legalization crowd often speaks of studies, but ignores the ones their gut feelings disagree with? It shows what they really oppose is people liking things they dislike.

I came to this realization as I was throwing up my antiemetic medicine yesterday, along with my Cheerios.

Ponies puke rainbows.

I was there not too long ago, though for different reasons. Ick, you have my sympathies. Toilet hugging is never fun or pleasant. None of the supposed anti-nausea medication on the market now really works. Even the stuff they give you in an iv. *hugs*

If they could make a green version of Preggie Pops, that would be THE best thing ever. Preggie Pops sort of work with nausea, but not well enough to be a long term solution for those who need it. I think a dash of marijuana with the Preggie Pops would be incredibly effective, but that's just my opinion. The Queasy Pops are the same strength as Preggie Pops, but if you take the flavors from the Queasy Pops and use those to make Green Pops then I think they'd have something that actually works for a broader spectrum of people (except maybe pregnant women dealing with hyperemesis.)

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

So with that logic, we should throw out all studies and science and stick with personal experience. :thumbleft:

Anti herb crowd would love that idea. Oh wait, they have been doing it for as long as I've been alive. They just keep rolling along.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

It shows what they really oppose is people liking things they dislike.

I swear this is what it comes down to every time.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

 

[SaffronBurke]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

I have no issue with pot or potsmokers. I am absolutely for legalization, and frequently hang around people high out of their minds.

But I personally don't like it or what it does to my brain, and sometimes I have trouble understanding people who smoke it regularly for reasons other than health benefits (which I definitely believe exist and are important). I find myself unable to think clearly, like my brain suddenly got really tired without actually feeling tired, and that feeling is incredibly uncomfortable to me. It's like the world suddenly got blurry, like I lost my glasses.

I've lately been trying to understand what sort of reaction it has in others' brains in regards to their thought patterns. If it clouds your thoughts, how can you enjoy not thinking clearly? Or does it do different things to your thoughts? I've heard some people say it helps them think *more* clearly, and others say that not thinking is the entire point. Others say it just relaxes their emotions.

I'm mainly just trying to figure out the relationship between enjoyment of pot and the effect it has on thought clarity. Are the two related?

Again - completely not judging here. I adore alcohol and it's not like eight shots of vodka have ever been known to produce an Einstein.

Though that's another thing. I don't understand why I like what alcohol does to my brain, but not pot. I think for me alcohol is like putting on sunglasses in a darkened room, while pot is just losing the glasses you need to drive. I don't know. I'm really confused about this.

What is it like for you? How is thought clarity with alcohol different than thought clarity on pot?

And I'm referring to like... if someone sat you down while you were super drunk/high and then asked you for personal advice on a really complicated and difficult relationship matter? Or asked you to solve a logic problem?

How does your brain function, depending on the source of intoxication and the type of thinking involved with the question?

(Pardon me for dragging up an old thread, but I did want to answer this!)

I am a rather occasional user of both, and here's how it works for me:

Alcohol
Feeling - I frequently don't feel the booze hit me for a couple hours, then the whole night's worth of drinks will hit at once, leaving me very warm and fuzzy. At this point, my pain is severely decreased, and I'm reading to go to sleep, which is good, because this tends to happen around 1:30AM, when I'm reading to leave the club, bar, or living room. No matter how much I drink, I do not black out, or lose memory. I also never get hangovers - but that may be due to responsibility on my part. Before drinking, I make sure I'm well hydrated, and decently nourished with a meal balanced in carbs, fats, and proteins. If I can, I do the same before bed, bare minimum having a glass of water. I've woken up still drunk, but I've never been hungover.

Judgement - Even when my end-of-the-night slam happens, I still have reasonably good judgement. I NEVER drive impaired - I actually have a friend who's my "designated driver", and she doesn't drink, so I'm her "designated drinker" - and I know exactly when to stop because it's plenty, or tell someone that they need to remove their hands from wherever they put them without permission. I'm more creative, and frequently have a drink or two if I need to do some writing, because it always turns out better. I tend to "sober up" rather quickly when important decisions need to be made - like when I came home hammered, only to find my husband dead in the bathroom, I was able to handle everything that went along with that very calmly, and didn't start crying until the coroner left. I did worry that they thought I might be some heartless person who didn't care, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who deal with grief by just focusing on the business that needs done at the time.

Different amounts - I can very how much I drink, and go anywhere from a single drink to a whole bottle of hard liquor. One glass of wine sets me up very nicely for bed. A couple beers are nice, and I typically have one while I cam, because that'll keep me calm enough to not rip anyone's head off. If I'm at Ren Faire, my "safe place", I will down half a bottle of Yukon Jack, enjoy talking and bullshitting, and head to bed at some absurd time of the morning.

Pot
Feeling - I get a nice, buzzy, floaty feeling initially. My head spins and I feel a little dizzy. My body feels nice, pain subsides, and I giggle a bit. These feelings float away, and then I get fucking PRODUCTIVE! We're talking an hour worth of sewing done in twenty minutes. Bam! Finished that! Next! More!

Judgement - I have never tested my judgement while using pot, so I can't give you any conclusive answers, but it feels like that clarity that I have while writing drunk.

Here's the fun part!
I'm not the best example for pot, because of the 7 times I've smoked, here's how it went:
1- Homemade pipe. Smoked a lot, more than others, did not feel any different. When this was the ONLY time I'd smoked, I kept getting a lot of "Nobody gets high the first time." Really? I can't believe that, sorry. If NOBODY gets high the first time, I doubt many people would have had the thought process of "Maybe it doesn't work the first time. I'll try again in a couple days and see what happens". No, they would have just moved on to the next plant, right?
2- Store-bought pipe, "shotgunned" from a friend who wanted to see what I was like high. What happened? Zil.
3- Sitting on my porch drinking, roommate hands me pipe, I partake socially, again, enough to get the others high, no fun for me.
4- Same as 2. Nothing.
5- Bong. Smoked too much, felt nice, then went to sleep it off.
6- Bong again! Smoked just enough apparently, see above comments on productivity and clarity.
7- Socially smoking a pipe at a friends. Nothing happened.

My Medical History
I have a high tolerance to pain killers. I've had migraines since age 6, and chronic back pain since age 12, and receive zero benefits from Tylenol due to frequent use. According to the bottle, if you take more than 10 in 24 hours, you've overdosed. Well, I've "overdosed" and had zero pain relief. I have to take a good 5-6 ibuprofen now, I'm getting tolerant to that. I'm currently at the 2 naproxen stage, we'll see how that goes. I had percoset once after surgery, and for me it was like your average adult taking baby Tylenol - ooh, that shaved a tiny sliver off of the pain, yay! Lortab worked nicely for the pain, but I would take a 4-hour nap in the middle of the day - and that was when I cut it in THIRDS!

Surprisingly, going to the strip club and getting hammered helps my migraines subside for a few hours, though it'll be back when I wake up. So does going to Pride and screaming for beads? My head's weird.

 

[ne1up]

Re: The 4/20 Thread: Weed, Counterculture, Politics and Ethi

Hey all!

New cardholder here. I grew up as a cop's son and joined the military my senior year of high school and did six years as an airborne infantry guy, eventually a Sergeant, in the 82nd Airborne. So anyway, I say that, to just say I was always clean and sober. Didn't start drinking until I joined the military, but smoking pot or using drugs? Holy crap my dad would have beat me, and the military would have disowned me. I didn't start smoking pot until I was 26.

Anyhow, I got blown up over in Afghanistan by a 7yo and fast forward to now, finally went through all the hoops to get my card, because smoking a joint or hitting the bong every once in a while is WAY more preferable for me to do than taking all the medications and pills the VA prescribes.

What really pisses me off is I had to pay more because my VA doctor, being under the federal government, couldn't endorse medical marijuana for me and save me money on having to go to an outside doctor to look at all the VA medical records and say "OK." Ridiculous. I mean, I know $150 isn't a lot for most people, but that's $150 for medical expenses my VA doc could have saved me with a note and a signature.