There is so much wtf wrong in this I can not even. I just cant. "Such a flippant way?" Are you kidding me. You have to be joking. Im sure you will come back with some rebuttal but frankly there isnt one for stuff like that. You act like she cavalierly talked to her publicist and decided it'd be a great career move to tweet this. That is after you insinuated maybe Deen is in on all this. No. It's also a complete brush off to claim "personal emotional investment" because some girls have shared their experiences. So what. Even if some are this is a conversation and we can have one no matter how many pages it takes to speak our mind, speak out view point, read someone elses, get some opinions, learn some things, and so on. Past experiences of his have been spoken about, other stories shared about him, personal stories of dealing with these cases, and all of that IS important when speaking about someone in our own industry who formerly was majorly held in high regard as being so caring and sweet. How dare you say that doesnt amount to much but venting alone.
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Stoya has publicly accused James Deen of rape
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There is so much wtf wrong in this I can not even. I just cant. "Such a flippant way?" Are you kidding me. You have to be joking. Im sure you will come back with some rebuttal but frankly there isnt one for stuff like that. You act like she cavalierly talked to her publicist and decided it'd be a great career move to tweet this. That is after you insinuated maybe Deen is in on all this. No. It's also a complete brush off to claim "personal emotional investment" because some girls have shared their experiences. So what. Even if some are this is a conversation and we can have one no matter how many pages it takes to speak our mind, speak out view point, read someone elses, get some opinions, learn some things, and so on. Past experiences of his have been spoken about, other stories shared about him, personal stories of dealing with these cases, and all of that IS important when speaking about someone in our own industry who formerly was majorly held in high regard as being so caring and sweet. How dare you say that doesnt amount to much but venting alone.
SexySteph
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So, you think that telling people she was raped was a publicity stunt? That this tweet was discussed with a publicist, heavily thought out and then decided "Ah yes, the pros (publicity!) definitely outweigh the cons (being called a liar, told I asked for it, accused of doing this for attention)!"
Or maybe, just maybe, she had a moment of frustration/weakness and put it out there because, yeah, watching your rapist be lauded as a feminist and an amazing guy, watching women clamor to fuck him, etc, that's probably pretty horrible. And maybe, just maybe, she thought, I've got to say something, I don't want this to happen to other girls.
Or, whatever, maybe she just wanted some RTs. *eyeroll*
Worship Jaclyn
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Quoting because this is what I agree with.
I understand that for a lot of people they need to talk these things to death, to go back and forth. I don't know if it's just me, something my brain doesn't understand because I think very logically and not with emotion, but I don't think that these talks do any good. We will talk about this because it's in the public eye. Was there a thread like this about Cytheria? I don't believe so. Because there's nothing to debate and that's what people love to do. But sitting here from the comfort of our couches debating on a public forum doesn't do anything. It doesn't help. But maybe it helps the people doing the debating, it must.
Let's see that this horrible thing happened. Let's see, whatever side you believe, that someone was horribly attacked in a life altering way. So find yourself a way to advocate within your community. For victims, for the legal system, for anyone. Just see this, see how outraged you are that people aren't agreeing with you and go do something about it.
LaceyRoyce
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Re: PR stunt. The legal ramifications of her doing something like this.. don't seem to be even plausible. Defamation suits... etc.
Are there any precedents you can think of where someone has accused another person of a horrible crime publicly as a PR stunt? Publicist goes "oh good idea!" I can't think of any.
Are there any precedents you can think of where someone has accused another person of a horrible crime publicly as a PR stunt? Publicist goes "oh good idea!" I can't think of any.
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There are many people who chose to tweet things about personal issues on their work twitters, breakup, family members passing, etc.....and before they press that tweet button I honestly don't think every single one of them says to themselves "HMMMMMMMMM. Will this make me more $? More likable? More relatable? Lead to future business? Check check check. Which personal trauma is more relatable? Ahhh yes. I'll get more likes with RAPE
"I think that people tweet a mixture of various things, business minded or not, but every single word is not crafted to elicit a specific reaction. Do I think she knew this would cause a shit storm? Absolutely. Does that mean that this was contrived? No. Sometimes people "have had enough" of whatever they are feeling, through caution to the wind and just post shit.
The response to the first few reports on Bill Cosby (and any celebrity rape case really) were all "its for $! personal gain! attention!" Some of those women waited decades, but one voice enabled the others to speak out. Did the original voice do it for personal gain? Did she do it for $? Did she do it because she lived so long watching him live a happy and well paid life and was OVER watching people love him and think he was funny? WHO KNOWS. But her coming forward slowly but surely enabled others to come forward, as Stoya's tweet seems to have (Tori Lux and Ashley Fires)....
We don't know EXACTLY what she was feeling when she tweeted, but I personally think boiling the possible rape/trauma she may have been dealing with (along with a litany of other feelings/concerns) down to "It was a tweet on a business Twitter account" is erasure.
Gross.
I see having a conversation about something as a good jumping off point of what can be done or changed even. It is doing something to start with to me. For a lot of people a conversation about a topic is how they inform themselves and learn things on it they may not otherwise know or think of on their own. It's opening themselves up to causes, rights, wrongs, a place to ask questions, etc. It's information. From there you can go on to do things about a topic, if relevant like in this case, a well rounded informed individual. The spoken word is powerful. The spoken word brings awareness. It all starts with that. It's how laws get changed, it's how support is shown to others, it's how protests start...all from a conversation. It's not about agreement or outrage.
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And, as stated in my original post... this is exactly why I don't engage in conversations like this.
My statements stand as they are: an exploration into more possible facets of the thread topic that weren't being talked about rather than following the tide, an attempt to actively utilize this opportunity to do something to benefit or even actively prevent unsafe or malicious sexual activity - a neutral, optimistically proactive stance.
It is overwhelmingly obvious that my conjecture and personal opinion has hit a nerve and is unwelcome here. I will learn from this as to prevent provoking hostility or disrupting a future thread. The last thing anyone needs in a situation where raw nerves are exposed, especially in a situation that deals with very serious matters, is any form of hostility or in-fighting and I'm sorry for contributing to that in any way.
Forgive my intrusion and if anyone would like to discuss the matter in the differing format as stated above by @AriaGray and in my initial post, please feel free to start a PM discussion.
Once again, my apologies.
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Most importantly, if anyone needs resources regarding this subject matter (of any gender that was assailed by anyone of any gender), my door is open, please don't hesitate to contact. I will help in every personal capacity possible and can refer to groups and resources that may be helpful.
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My statements stand as they are: an exploration into more possible facets of the thread topic that weren't being talked about rather than following the tide, an attempt to actively utilize this opportunity to do something to benefit or even actively prevent unsafe or malicious sexual activity - a neutral, optimistically proactive stance.
It is overwhelmingly obvious that my conjecture and personal opinion has hit a nerve and is unwelcome here. I will learn from this as to prevent provoking hostility or disrupting a future thread. The last thing anyone needs in a situation where raw nerves are exposed, especially in a situation that deals with very serious matters, is any form of hostility or in-fighting and I'm sorry for contributing to that in any way.
Forgive my intrusion and if anyone would like to discuss the matter in the differing format as stated above by @AriaGray and in my initial post, please feel free to start a PM discussion.
Once again, my apologies.
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Most importantly, if anyone needs resources regarding this subject matter (of any gender that was assailed by anyone of any gender), my door is open, please don't hesitate to contact. I will help in every personal capacity possible and can refer to groups and resources that may be helpful.
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If what she (and the other girls coming forward now) is saying is true, why should protecting his career be any of her concern? I'd think getting the word out there that someone heavily involved in the sex industry is a sexual predator and rapist would be more important than hiding it while the performer continues working with a countless number of girls... but that's just me. Perhaps she could have used a source other than Twitter but who are we to say how a victim of sexual assault should announce it?
Worship Jaclyn
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Clearly the spoken word is powerful I just find it more powerful on a platform where there are open ears.
There was a study where they passed out a questionnaire in college and asked things like, "can a husband rape his wife?" Many people answered, "no." They asked, "if a girl gets drunk and doesn't verbally say 'no' is it rape?" Many said, "no." They asked "If a girl consents to sex and several minutes later changes her mind and the guy doesn't stop, is it considered rape?" Many said, "no." Don't ask me to find this article because I read it 5 years ago, but it's things I've personally heard in person and I'm well aware of the ignorance that surrounds our society on rape.
I can't tell you the number of sex workers I know who have been sexually assaulted and raped but "asked for it because of their job."
Even some women don't get it. I have a stripper friend that told me she gets sexually assaulted but it's just "part of the job" and "expected." "Boys will be boys." Another stripper friend was sexually assaulted in the club. When she told the manager his response was, "well, can you blame him?" That's rape culture. Ignorance and victim blaming. Many people don't know what rape is. It sounds silly, but they think if a girl is drunk and can't consent, married, slutty, a sex worker, they can't be raped. This isn't a few people. This is like, the majority of people who have this fucked up idea of what rape is or is not.
SexySteph
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Also, Twitter seems like a GREAT venue for this. How do you reach the largest audience the fastest? Twitter. If their was a predatory camboy I'm sure a girl would tweet about it or post it here on the forum to reach as many girls as quickly as possible. As I've said before, the porn world isn't too unlike the camworld, a lot of their interactions with each other take place on Twitter.
Are you saying the forum does not have open ears? I dont get it cause I feel the opposite of that around here.
Im also kinda ???? about the more powerful platform part? Im sorry but should this not all be said cause here is not as profound as twitter or something?
Worship Jaclyn
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This is a really good point. A lot of people are confused about rape culture because they say that no one they know thinks rape is okay. The problem is that everyone defines rape differently and I think that holds the healthy discussion that could happen back quite significantly. We aren't saying that rape culture means all men are okay with guys breaking into your house in the middle of the night and raping you at gunpoint. The problem is the assaults that we have all experienced that don't fit that scenario.
For a couple years I wanted to be a police officer (I know, what a difference
) and did some job shadowing and took criminal justice classes in high school. I'll never forget my teacher (a retired cop) asked us one day if a husband could rape his wife. Every single guy in my class said no. I was the only one in the class who said it was!!!! (There were even a couple other girls.) My teacher asked me to explain why so I simply said, "No means no," and the guys just looked so shocked that even though you're married a man can still rape his wife. And these fools were the same guys learning the law and working with the sheriff's department right alongside me. The ones who were working toward a goal of protecting the public and that was their way of thinking?! So imagine what the average joe thinks of when it comes to rape and what can and can't be rape.
missrosexox
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The lengths to which some people will bend over backwards trying to convince themselves and everyone around them that rape is super-duper rare and really not a big deal is stupefying and very creepy.
And also it's a knee jerk reaction in most cases for people to question the events surrounding the rape. Attempts to find "mistakes" that the victim made. IE: "did the victim go back to the accused house at late hours?", "did the victim drink too much?", etc.
You don't get these same questions when it comes to other crimes. For example when theft occurs people don't ask "did the victim leave their door unlocked?", "was he flaunting the object stolen around beforehand", "did he willingly let the thief into his home?", "is the thief in a relationship with the victim thus entitled to take things occasionally?", etc.
Everyone agrees that the act of rape is wrong at a macro level, but at a micro "case by case" basis rape crimes seem to involve investigating the victims actions far more often then others.
Even shows on TV and movies glorify rape. How many women have a crush on Khal Drogo in The Game of Thrones? (I admit, he was sexy as hell) but they thought it was the perfect love story totally forgetting that he fucking RAPED Khalessi! I understand that it's just a show and I don't blame them for wanting to portray something true to life, but the reactions from women were that it was in a sick way some great love story. He was a rapist dude. And many people glorified it. That's rape culture. It's in our media on a daily basis and we don't bat an eye.
After reading Tori's account, I am inclined to believe her. There are a lot of details which while they may not be able to be verified, there is at least a chance that some of the people that were there could be interviewed and we could get beyond a he said, she said situation.
It does seem sadly unlikely that Deen will be tried in anything but the court of public opinion. Much as in the Cosby case more accusations by different woman adds considerably to the credibility of the charges, so since I believe Stoya, I'm also inclined to believe Stoya. When I said earlier that I think Stoya shouldn't have gone dark, I was reacting to the media she used to make the announcement twitter. Twitter is such an unserious media, that using it to announce such a horrendous crime feels wrong to me. I'm not nearly as cynical as Deez to think this is all a publicity stunt, but the thought that it could be crossed my mind. The reason it did was the lack of details Stoya provided. A few tweets back Stoya was complaining about how ugly her passport photo was and how bad her period was. IMO, 140 characters just isn't sufficient space to level such a serious charge.
Anyway I'm glad Tori came forward and I'm glad she talked to a reporter, although in an ideal world she would have talked to the cops first.
Worship Jaclyn
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The victims do this as well.
"I think I was raped", "I maybe didn't say no enough times", "I shouldn't have been in that part of town". We wouldn't say those things if we were victims of another crime either. Which may very well be why there is so much anger when the victims are asked after coming out, because they know and anyone who has been assaulted knows, they have already asked themselves those very questions.
I've always wondered if the guilt we feel is innate or because of society and what we were raised to believe.
Here's the deal: Stoya posted that tweet. Given the tweet prior to the naming of Deen it gives the impression of it being a tweet that she posted after getting to a point of "fuck, I can't do this anymore". If I saw my rapist being idolized and touted as a feminist while knowing that he raped me, my frustrations would get to me and I would out that motherfucker so everyone would KNOW what the fuck he did. Once again, I'm not Stoya, but that is what I get from the tweets.
I have seen many fucked up stories about Deen's actions that were NOT consensual (keep in mind that coercion does NOT equal consent. If someone keeps pressuring you into something and you eventually say yes, it is not consent. Consent is enthusiastic.)
Calling this a PR stunt (even if it is, which I honestly highly doubt - my opinion) is pretty much as terrible as saying that you don't believe her because you have 0 evidence. Believe women. If we don't believe women (or anyone who is raped for that matter) then NOTHING is going to change and survivors of sexual assault will continue to be attacked and chastised for coming out.
Honestly, coming public with this stuff is super important and it DOES directly effect a lot of people. We are in an industry where many people might have worked with Deen prior to this tweet but will now not work with him, and it's important for people to know. Not just because of Stoya's tweet but because of all the stuff that is coming out. Joanna Angel, also one of his exes, has warned people in the past about Deen because he pushes and disrespects boundaries.
If it comes to light that this did not happen than Deen will be able to continue his life and continue his work, because porn is inherently male-centric, there will be no issue. Fuck, there's plenty of producers who will still work with him despite him being a potential rapist. Stoya, on the other hand, no matter what the outcome, will most likely have more limited job opportunities, etc. because she is a woman in a male-centric industry and unfortunately society is light years away from not chastising those of us who go public with this kind of shit. If everyone kept their mouth shut I 99% guarantee that more and more people would get away with rape and the numbers would rise, because no one would be talking about it.
Accountability. If you do something that you wouldn't want people to publicly call you out for cause it could damage you, your reputation, your job, etc. THEN DON'T DO IT
I have seen many fucked up stories about Deen's actions that were NOT consensual (keep in mind that coercion does NOT equal consent. If someone keeps pressuring you into something and you eventually say yes, it is not consent. Consent is enthusiastic.)
Calling this a PR stunt (even if it is, which I honestly highly doubt - my opinion) is pretty much as terrible as saying that you don't believe her because you have 0 evidence. Believe women. If we don't believe women (or anyone who is raped for that matter) then NOTHING is going to change and survivors of sexual assault will continue to be attacked and chastised for coming out.
Honestly, coming public with this stuff is super important and it DOES directly effect a lot of people. We are in an industry where many people might have worked with Deen prior to this tweet but will now not work with him, and it's important for people to know. Not just because of Stoya's tweet but because of all the stuff that is coming out. Joanna Angel, also one of his exes, has warned people in the past about Deen because he pushes and disrespects boundaries.
If it comes to light that this did not happen than Deen will be able to continue his life and continue his work, because porn is inherently male-centric, there will be no issue. Fuck, there's plenty of producers who will still work with him despite him being a potential rapist. Stoya, on the other hand, no matter what the outcome, will most likely have more limited job opportunities, etc. because she is a woman in a male-centric industry and unfortunately society is light years away from not chastising those of us who go public with this kind of shit. If everyone kept their mouth shut I 99% guarantee that more and more people would get away with rape and the numbers would rise, because no one would be talking about it.
Accountability. If you do something that you wouldn't want people to publicly call you out for cause it could damage you, your reputation, your job, etc. THEN DON'T DO IT
Worship Jaclyn
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I think it's both. I'm sure that most of us would question ourselves a bit because of society but some of us (me!) will question ourselves to death because our personality is just more prone to feelings of shame. Similar to nature versus nurture I suppose.
Poison_Ivy21
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Like, you think none of your friends would do something like this but I assure you, there's at least one who would if he thought he'd get away with it.
When a women says, "Steve raped me." Then Steve's best friend insists until the day he dies, "NO, I know Steve and he could never do something like that!" Do you really know Steve? Do you know how Steve is in sexual situations with women? Have you seen Steve fuck? Steve could be a nice guy in his day to day interactions, doesn't mean he's not capable of raping someone. Just because a person says one thing, doesn't mean they're not doing the exact opposite.
All of Jeffery Dahmer's neighbors thought he was the nicest guy and normal. Doesn't mean he wasn't right next door, chopping people up and eating them.
Some of the biggest monsters, are the ones who are the best at keeping up appearances. I'm not saying any of your friends are rapists, but you just really can't know what people are capable of.
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This has always bothered me. Especially after finding out that in the book he wasn't like that. I haven't read it but, someone who was at the time, told me he was actually a decent guy who asked for her consent (someone correct me if Im wrong). It sucks that the network decided to go for the creepy and stereotypical route of making the "barbarian" rapey.
Edit to add: Rape culture is indeed everywhere and it goes way back. What kind of culture sees women as business currency for lands, status, gold and shit (aka princesses).
This only holds true in non-violent crimes. In violent crimes without weapons,especially when its male on male or female on male the rates of report are comparably low, the social stigma is very similar, and people are often inclined to ask what the victim did "to deserve it" depending on their reputation.
The rates of reporting all violent crime not resulting in death or shots fired are reported on comparably low levels, that rate goes down even further in major cities.
My only point in bringing this up is that if people were more willing to acknowledge the similarity in most violent crimes where the victim survives(rape is included as a violent crime), and that there are comparable levels of trauma and stigma it would open more resources in helping all victims on a larger scale. Otherwise when treating rape as a special case in terms of violent crime, you run the risk of unintentionally undermining it's victims.
Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to add that it took me close to NINE years to admit/realize that I had been raped when I was 17. I wasn't as educated on consent as I am now, so I had no idea that being as inebriated as I was and being coerced into a room and then quickly coerced into "sex" with an older man was rape. It was rape, but it took me a long time to figure that out. It's a hard thing to come to terms with sometime, and sexual assault has contributed greatly to my PTSD. Sometimes it's not easy to come forward early on (especially when you are unsure if you were raped or not) or even at all. And Stoya is not stupid, she posted that and knew that she would get trolled so hard, it's twitter, that happens, but she posted it anyway and sometimes it takes a person to do something to make others comfortable to open up about what has happened to them
I'm inclined to think it's a bit of both. I think inherently we want to be in control of ourselves always, so when something like that is done to us and the control is taken away, we find a weird kind of comfort in thinking "well maybe part of it was my own doing" and "if I just avoid doing XYZ, it won't happen again". The same way I think that often when we say "well was she drunk? Did she go back to his place?", it's a way for us to try and think "then I will just make sure to cover my drink and go to the bathroom with a friend and never ride alone with a man, because that way I'm safe". Even though factually we know that you're much more likely to get raped by someone you know, we're still super attached to the idea of the back alleyway rapist because that's so much easier to control than saying "don't ever have a boyfriend or a male relative". I think a lot of it relates to wanting to have control over the situation.
Anyway I got into a bit of a derail from the thread but I think it's a really good question & one I'm going to keep thinking about.
I loooove your insight and perspective. Thank you for being you pretty lady!
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A 3rd porn star has come forward http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/272154/ashley-fires-james-deen-sexual-assault/
There was I time were I saw a lot of women fans talk about how they wished they could have sex with James Deen. I imagined how awesome it must be to live that guys life. After learning about the accusations it makes my skin crawl.
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