So, you're in love with a cam girl

[mynameisbob84]

Read this, innit!

http://kotaku.com/ask-dr-nerdlove-h...m_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow

Hey Doc!

I’m intentionally single after my last couple of relationships went sour (one I ended due to privacy/trust concerns, the other I ended due to way too much unnecessary drama). Aside from spanking the money the old fashioned way, one of the ways I address my sexual needs is by occasionally visiting a cam site. I’ve been a member of a particular cam site for a few years. Up until recently I was actually planning to delete my account.

That all changed when I met a particular model on the site a few months ago. She’s gorgeous, sweet, funny, entertaining, and unlike any of the other models. When I first saw her, I instantly knew she would be one of my favorites. She is contagiously cheerful and tangibly passionate about what she does. I’ve been supporting her as I not only enjoy her company but I want her to have fun and be successful on the site.

Here’s the issue. I’m not sure why I’m supporting her so much. I’ve spent more money on her than I have my last three girlfriends combined (which I have no problem with, as I feel it was well spent). We’ve talked over Skype a couple of times and texted, and we’ve both established that we’re intentionally single. She also mentioned that she doesn’t feel any sexual tension from me even though I tip to watch her get naked and masturbate. From what I know about her so far, I thoroughly respect her as a person and I just wanted to support her throughout her camming career.

However, lately I’ve been wondering if I want something more. I’m wholly aware that just because I give her a certain amount of money or friendship or support doesn’t mean I am entitled to any sort of sexual relations with her. I also feel fortunate that I even have things like her phone number and her Skype as I imagine most of her viewers don’t.

I really like her, though. It’s to the point where if I miss a cam session, I feel bad. Like I totally missed out. I can do a million fun things at night after work, but when she logs in I find myself doing the same.

The way I’ve rationalized it to myself is that models on cam sites provide a service, similar to bartenders, servers and strippers. At the end of the day, they are all there to work, and it’s their job to get you to like them so that you give them more money. She’s doing her job extraordinarily well. Though honestly I’ve been struggling with it because I’m not sure if I’m in denial and keeping something from her that I should tell her. I don’t want to hurt her or be fundamentally dishonest with her or myself.

How do I approach this without completely fucking it up?

Sincerely,

In Love With A Camgirl

Hoo boy.

ILWACG, you have done what many, many men have done before when single: you done went and fell in lust with a stripper. And, as much as I hate to break this to you: the stripper almost certainly doesn’t love you back.

Ok, let me back this up a little bit. Grab a seat, this is gonna be a long one.

Back in my pick-up days, there were two classes—for lack of a better word—of women that PUAs used to rank as being among the hardest to get: “hired guns” (that is: women in the service industry, so waitstaff, bartenders, shot girls, etc.) and strippers. Being able to pull one of these was supposed to be a mark of your skill; they were not only used to being hit on by… well, pretty much every man they interacted with, but their whole job revolved around milking dudes for money. And as dehumanizing and misogynistic as those views were… they’re not entirely incorrect.

Anyone who’s been in a service industry job that relied on tips can tell you about all the tricks that they would use to maximize their tips. Little things like calling the customer by name, writing a little “thank you” on the check, even adding a little something like a smiley-face to the bill will prompt the customers to give a little more than they would otherwise. Being a little flirty is frequently a part of that particular tip-enhancement package; an extra smile, a little banter from the bartender… all of these can make the difference between a 10% tip, a 15% or a 25% tip.

Of course, when you stack all of those together, they sound an awful lot like indicators of interest. And when you’re already attracted to the person… well, then you have a motivation to want to believe that your barista or your waitress or your bartender likes you.

Now, let’s talk a little about sex-workers, like strippers and cam girls. Much like with service industry professionals, most of them make the bulk of their money off tips from their customers. The difference is that instead of selling you drinks or taking your order, they’re selling sex, and sex has a way of making people (men and women) stupid. Just as little flirty touches can mean the difference between a 15% and a 20% tip, selling a fantasy to go with the boners means that customers are going to stick around longer, spend more money and—hopefully—become regulars. Individual customers come and go, but a regular means steady—even predictable—income. For some, it can even mean gifts above and beyond straight fees for service; clothes, dinners, jewelry, even travel. And contrary to what you may think, this doesn’t become an issue of prostitution; more often than not, sex doesn’t actually enter the picture. Some dudes may well be trying to buy the dancer’s affections but a lot of regulars just like the idea of being a part of the dancer or cam-girl’s world. They like feeling like they have a special relationship with her.

That relationship, that greater level of intimacy that her other clients and customers don’t have, is part of the fantasy. And there are many ways of encouraging that fantasy, including—you guessed it—giving someone greater access to them by giving them their phone number or Skype name. So no, I don’t imagine most of her customers have her digits. But then again, I wouldn’t lay odds that you’re the only one who does.

Now, don’t get me wrong: I’m not saying she’s coldly exploiting you for money and that her personality is a put-on. There may be some role-play, some persona, but not really that much more than any of us change ourselves between when we’re working and home… or on social media, for that matter. It’s not a false face so much as a carefully curated one.

Similarly, I’m not saying that she may not feel some genuine affection for you. The two of you may well have a legitimate emotional bond and a level of intimacy. The fact that you’re a client and she’s a service provider doesn’t preclude her from being friends with you or even actually infatuated with you. But—and call Sir Mix-A-Lot because this is one big but—it’s still her job and you are still interacting with her primarily as a client and it’s in her best interest to sell and promote that fantasy. No offense, ILWACG, I’m sure you’re an awesome guy and have a lot to offer… but this is her job.

Now this isn’t the only thing that’s going on, and it’s not that she’s some succubus, leading you on. There’re a few things happening in your own brain that’re contributing to this scenario. To start with: you’re getting a love-bomb, a shitload of dopamine and oxytocin going straight to the pleasure centers of your brain. Not only do you have the orgasms from watching her show hitting you, but the attention she’s giving you and the pleasure you get from the attention she gives you trigger what’s known as the Reward Theory of Attraction: you like how you feel around her because she makes you feel special, so you prioritize your relationship with her over others. She’s fulfilling your needs for emotional intimacy (and, to a certain extent, physical intimacy) and so you naturally want to spend more time with her.

You also have what’s known as the Sunk-Cost Fallacy going on. You’ve invested a lot of your time and money into this relationship and that makes it harder to want to leave it and find one with someone in person. Giving her up to pursue other partners would mean sacrificing all of this time and money you’ve spent, and that is legitimately hard to do.

TL;DR: she may think you’re a good guy, but it’s in her interest to sell you a fantasy of a relationship and you’ve got a whole bunch of physiological and psychological reasons to want to believe in the fantasy. So no, I don’t think you really have a shot with this. It’s not impossible, but the odds are not in your favor. I think if you tell her, you’re going to get the “You’re sweet but…” speech.

But for the sake of argument, let’s play this out a little. Let us say that you express interest in her and she returns your feelings… then what? At this point you have two realities to confront.

The first is that this has been an online-only relationship and no matter how much chemistry you two may have through the phone and Skype sessions and texting, that doesn’t necessarily translate into actual chemistry in person. Cam shows don’t guarantee that there will be sparks in person—everything from the way she kisses to the way she smells and even the way she tastes when you kiss her all affect attraction and chemistry. Similarly, you’ve only seen a very small and carefully curated slice of her life; you have yet to truly see her when she hasn’t been “on”. The way you relate online doesn’t mean that you’ll be able to relate in the flesh and you need to keep that in mind.

The second is that she’s a sex-worker. That means that she’s going to have an intimate and sexual relationship with other men—quite possibly the same level of intimacy that the two of you now share—and you’re going to have to deal with that. It’s easy to ignore the fact that she’s performing sexually for others besides you when the relationship is theoretical. When there’s actual commitment, you’d be amazed at how much it might bother you, even when you’d swear up and down beforehand that it wouldn’t. Some folks are able to handle a non-monogamous or monogamish relationship and some aren’t and you’d better have a pretty firm handle on which you are before you go for it. If you are unable to handle it, then you’re setting yourself and your sweetie up for a world of hurt.

And while we’re on the subject: if you have fantasies of her giving up camming after you get together orof “rescuing” her from sex work, then you would need to give those up. Not only is it unfair to ask that of her, it’s actually insulting. The implication is that it was OK when she was primarily your wank fantasy, but now that she’s your girlfriend it’s unacceptable, and that carries a whole lot of implications for how you think of her as a sexual being. Predicating your relationship on a Madonna-Whore complex is a great way to end that relationship.

You have to realize: trying to pursue a relationship with someone who does sex-work is dating on hard mode. While these challenges aren’t insurmountable, they can definitely be far thornier and more complicated than dating a pastry chef you met on OKCupid or asking out Amanda in Accounts Receivable. It will present challenges you may never have imagined and hit emotional issues that you may well not have realized were there.

If, if she’s actually romantically interested in you or open to the possibility of dating, you have to be ready to deal with all of those issues. If you’re not, then I’d say you shouldn’t. Love is a wonderful thing, but love alone isn’t enough to make a relationship work, no matter how much you both may want it to.

Now that I’ve crushed your dreams with the Chair Leg of Truth, let’s go back your situation as things currently stand.

If your current relationship—texting, skyping, etc.—with her makes you happy and you’re realistic about the nature of your relationship with this woman, then there’s really no reason to end it. As long as you’re not spending money you can’t afford to lose and you recognize that this is primarily a provider/client relationship, more power to you. Just recognize that by continuing as you are, you’re choosing to not pursue a relationship with someone else who might be closer to home, both physically and emotionally.

Good luck

They should probably force new members to read this before they let them set up an account MFC. I dare say it would result in a lot less butt-hurt.

 

[Empress Mika]

What an interesting read! I think another important issue is the distance. At best, she's more than likely in a different state. At worst, she's in a different country. Would this guy be willing to move (away from his own friends/family/work/comfort reality) or would she be expected to, if things were to work out (and how would she feel about moving)? Ohhhh maaannn! Haha.

 

[Puffin]

Nicely written reply.

They should probably force new members to read this before they let them set up an account MFC. I dare say it would result in a lot less butt-hurt.

And less sign ups.

 

[Leon_Omega]

yeah, this may be the first time I find myself agreeing with a (admittedly former) pick-up artist. Good read

 

[AmberCutie]

For some reason I was all prepared to hate the article. But I found it well written and funny.

The comments section, however... I should pull myself away from that now... ick.

 

[mynameisbob84]

For some reason I was all prepared to hate the article. But I found it well written and funny.

The comments section, however... I should pull myself away from that now... ick.

I made a conscious decision to stop scrolling when it reached the comments section. People be poopy.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Great post.

I love a properly written tl;dr.

 

[Myriads]

I think a lot of people, viewers, and the cam-workers themselves are still finding their way in what is a new medium of interaction.

Sociologists and Psychologists are just starting to notice and work out the unique structures that camming brings to interactions. The medium is a connective one. It inherently includes an overlay of intimacy. Now this intimacy can be projection, whole cloth fantasy, calculated earning behavior, 'leaked fragments', and several other forms. But they all hold to the same thread, camming makes people feel as if they have connections and a form of intimacy with the figment they see on their screens (A figment is the projected media image of a person working in the media field. It is a combination of what the performer puts forth (a character if you will) the bits of their real self that leak around the character, and the viewers projected expectations and feelings on the performer) These connections are complex and multilayered.

Because the camming medium is a long form media projection (hours in a session) only the most supremely talented actors could maintain a full persona over that frequency of act. In fact I'm sure you can think of many models that project incomplete personalities on cam. They are all business, they are the perfect sex-worker attentive and present, but you see nothing at all beyond that. They don't show any part of the person behind the worker on screen. This is a subtractive presentation. It's effective as there is a full wall between performer and real self. No leaks. But it is also a bit cold. And if one ever sees that performer 'leak' a bit of real self it's impact is even bigger then normal. Most models cannot comfortably perform in such limits and play a enhanced version of themselves on cam. Flaws and things are concealed, but mostly you are seeing a very lightly concealed person, and there is a fair amount of intimacy leakage taking place, and thus connectivity building.

Here is where the article above sort of situation starts to grow from. You have attraction, you have some true connectivity, and you have the illusion of intimacy (and perhaps the real thing also) add in that the model might be working a personal agenda (make more money on a conscious level, or using the connectivity she finds in her members to handle personal wants/needs on a subconscious one) and you get in deep very very fast.

The biggest problem in the mediums interactive format is that it's almost impossible for a viewer to know exactly where the figment ends and the person starts. This means feelings are often build on sand. And a lot of hurt can result. Dispelling the figment is difficult. It requires higher levels of connectivity then the cam to happen, and those are most often Skype, texting, phone. All one on one interactions, but still removed ones, and still subject to figmintation and more projection. And as always deception could still be in the deck. People usually are best at pulling the wool over their own eyes, and see what they want. And figments make that easy.

Could love be found on a cam site? Of course it can. But it certainly has a lot of hurdles to jump over. Cynical experience tells us that it's an outlier possibility, and that it will face-plant hard at some point on it's run. But is that really different then any relationship? There are just different issues here.

The sociology and such of the relationships formed on cam-sites is going to be the basis of a lot of people PhD work. It's a new thing, and all of us who participate in the medium are the first generation of 'subjects' to start to feel out the rules and pitfalls. It's why so many come here to ACF to start "I'm falling in love with..." or "I am conflicted about a member because..." and such threads. And how there are no clear answers where one size fits all.

This article above is above average. It doesn't dismiss the question, nor does it stigmatize sex workers for aspects of their jobs. It looks like someone has a clue at least.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I was going to post this article. I really loved it. I am also sure it would cut into business if it was more widely distributed.

I gather I didn't miss anything but not reading the comments?

 

[Azhrarn]

Read this, innit!

http://kotaku.com/ask-dr-nerdlove-h...m_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow

In the past I’ve gotten heat from cam girls who claim there’s no contradiction in becoming friends with tipping regulars, and who try to draw parallels with other service workers. But there is an important difference between someone I tip to shine my shoes, or deliver my meal, or even cut my hair, and someone that I tip to provide for emotional and/or sexual needs. Someone who is providing for my physical needs doesn’t have to project a persona. As long as they are polite and competent at their job, that is all that’s required for them to earn a living. Sure they can try to earn better tips by projecting a false image, but they aren’t required to, and even if I discover that they are projecting a false image, it has no consequences for me.

But when you are tipping someone to provide for things like attention, companionship, or even sex, that person is very much motivated to project a false image. It’s pretty much a job requirement. In addition, cam girls are by definition performers, and performers by definition are projecting a false image. This argument that being online for long hours at a time necessitates greater honesty is simply fallacious, as most cam girl shows and activities have about as much emotional depth as a news broadcast. Does some of their real persona occasionally show through? Inevitably yes, but how would you distinguish that thin sliver of truth from the broader projected persona?

If you are paying for companionship or attention or access or time in any way, the person you are dealing with is highly motivated to present a false image to you. So the only way to prevent that from occurring, or to stop it from continuing if it’s already happening, is to remove money from the equation.

But even if you do remove money as a motivation for the relationship, there yet remains another problem. In another thread it was mentioned that cam girls are often socially isolated. I guess this explains the shocking frequency with which I find cam girls overtly and quite consciously referring to the fact that they rely upon their cam jobs to partially provide for various personal needs such as attention, admiration, distraction, emotional support, etc. So once again we have a powerful motivation for cam girls to project a false self.

Now of course this routinely happens in real life, in such situation as dating, and in job interviews; people are highly motivated to stress positives, build rapport, and to hide or minimize flaws. In real life however, such deceptions are much more easily discovered, although even then it’s not uncommon for people to get into relationships or even marriages with someone that they really don’t know at all. However, when your only or primary interactions with someone take place in the context of a webcam show, where the models are often viewed as just tits and ass, and the members are often viewed as just text and tokens, it seems a little odd to me to speak of friendship when the possibilities for deception are so much higher.

Cam girls are not only highly motivated to project false personas, they are enabled in doing so by the very nature of online communications. Yes, greater and more meaningful contact might allow members to see behind the false projections and to dispel them, but how often does that occur? With phone calls you can get vocal tones, and with Skype you can also get facial expressions and body language, but how often are these mediums used to further genuine communication as opposed to deepening false personas and false relationships? Up till now I’ve only been speaking of the motivations which might cause cam girls to project false personas, but of course we’re all aware that members can be equally motivated to project false personas as well.

I will state again that you can’t really be friends with someone when you aren’t even sure what their real personality is like, and in the context of camgirl-member relationships, where it’s the cam girls who control all interactions, only they themselves are in a position to determine how much of their real selves they make known. I believe this is perhaps one reason why it is common for cam girls to place greater restrictions upon members at the same time that they allow greater access, because only in this way can they continue to protect the false persona. In all of these interactions therefore, I believe it’s generally the members who are the most vulnerable, not the cam girls. While it’s common for us to hear about the physical dangers which cam girls might face, I think it’s less common for us to hear about the emotional (and financial) dangers which members face.

Are true friendships possible? I would say yes, but it would require willingness on both sides, as well as commitment, and I’m not a betting man.

And final comment, apparently i have mad pick up skills for dating several strippers in my life. Lulz.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

In the past I’ve gotten heat from cam girls who claim there’s no contradiction in becoming friends with tipping regulars, and who try to draw parallels with other service workers. But there is an important difference between someone I tip to shine my shoes, or deliver my meal, or even cut my hair, and someone that I tip to provide for emotional and/or sexual needs. Someone who is providing for my physical needs doesn’t have to project a persona. As long as they are polite and competent at their job, that is all that’s required for them to earn a living. Sure they can try to earn better tips by projecting a false image, but they aren’t required to, and even if I discover that they are projecting a false image, it has no consequences for me.

But when you are tipping someone to provide for things like attention, companionship, or even sex, that person is very much motivated to project a false image. It’s pretty much a job requirement. In addition, cam girls are by definition performers, and performers by definition are projecting a false image. This argument that being online for long hours at a time necessitates greater honesty is simply fallacious, as most cam girl shows and activities have about as much emotional depth as a news broadcast. Does some of their real persona occasionally show through? Inevitably yes, but how would you distinguish that thin sliver of truth from the broader projected persona?

If you are paying for companionship or attention or access or time in any way, the person you are dealing with is highly motivated to present a false image to you. So the only way to prevent that from occurring, or to stop it from continuing if it’s already happening, is to remove money from the equation.

But even if you do remove money as a motivation for the relationship, there yet remains another problem. In another thread it was mentioned that cam girls are often socially isolated. I guess this explains the shocking frequency with which I find cam girls overtly and quite consciously referring to the fact that they rely upon their cam jobs to partially provide for various personal needs such as attention, admiration, distraction, emotional support, etc. So once again we have a powerful motivation for cam girls to project a false self.

Now of course this routinely happens in real life, in such situation as dating, and in job interviews; people are highly motivated to stress positives, build rapport, and to hide or minimize flaws. In real life however, such deceptions are much more easily discovered, although even then it’s not uncommon for people to get into relationships or even marriages with someone that they really don’t know at all. However, when your only or primary interactions with someone take place in the context of a webcam show, where the models are often viewed as just tits and ass, and the members are often viewed as just text and tokens, it seems a little odd to me to speak of friendship when the possibilities for deception are so much higher.

Cam girls are not only highly motivated to project false personas, they are enabled in doing so by the very nature of online communications. Yes, greater and more meaningful contact might allow members to see behind the false projections and to dispel them, but how often does that occur? With phone calls you can get vocal tones, and with Skype you can also get facial expressions and body language, but how often are these mediums used to further genuine communication as opposed to deepening false personas and false relationships? Up till now I’ve only been speaking of the motivations which might cause cam girls to project false personas, but of course we’re all aware that members can be equally motivated to project false personas as well.

I will state again that you can’t really be friends with someone when you aren’t even sure what their real personality is like, and in the context of camgirl-member relationships, where it’s the cam girls who control all interactions, only they themselves are in a position to determine how much of their real selves they make known. I believe this is perhaps one reason why it is common for cam girls to place greater restrictions upon members at the same time that they allow greater access, because only in this way can they continue to protect the false persona. In all of these interactions therefore, I believe it’s generally the members who are the most vulnerable, not the cam girls. While it’s common for us to hear about the physical dangers which cam girls might face, I think it’s less common for us to hear about the emotional (and financial) dangers which members face.

Go back and read the parts I highlighted in red Azhrarn. I read this and I hear you saying "She lied to me, she lied to me, she lied to me...".
Then we get to the parts in green; sounds like you saying "I was vulnerable, she hurt me, and she took my money." A sad tale if my suspicions are correct. But don't let it make you bitter if it is true. Dust yourself off, and remember, they are not all like this.

And final comment, apparently i have mad pick up skills for dating several strippers in my life. Lulz.

So the f*ck what? Anybody out there with an IQ around 120 or above and a little experience should be able to pull this off. The fact that you need to point it out makes you sound very insecure.

Here is what I want to know: can you hand your heart over to a woman (camgirl, stripper, waitress, professor, whatever...), and know at the end of the day that if she decides to rate it as worthless and stomp all over it, you are still going to be ok? Or are you going to let it turn you into a cynic for the rest of your life?

Dude, you need a hug. This one is on the house.

 

[summerale]

Well after reading through that, I'm still in love with a cam girl

 

[Azhrarn]

Go back and read the parts I highlighted in red Azhrarn. I read this and I hear you saying "She lied to me, she lied to me, she lied to me...".
Then we get to the parts in green; sounds like you saying "I was vulnerable, she hurt me, and she took my money." A sad tale if my suspicions are correct. But don't let it make you bitter if it is true. Dust yourself off, and remember, they are not all like this.
So the f*ck what? Anybody out there with an IQ around 120 or above and a little experience should be able to pull this off. The fact that you need to point it out makes you sound very insecure.

Here is what I want to know: can you hand your heart over to a woman (camgirl, stripper, waitress, professor, whatever...), and know at the end of the day that if she decides to rate it as worthless and stomp all over it, you are still going to be ok? Or are you going to let it turn you into a cynic for the rest of your life?

Dude, you need a hug. This one is on the house.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. What do your discussions usually involve?

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. What do your discussions usually involve?

All of the above, and then some.

But if you posted this remark in an attempt to wriggle out from beneath my microscope, don't bother; I've got you pinned beneath the glass slides. Nothing fascinates me more than a damaged psyche, and you have aroused my curiosity.

Relax on the couch, my friend. Tell me--have you ever had a bad experience with a camgirl?

 

[pg240]

I assume lots of guys are grappling with this problem (well, perhaps it's a problem) as we speak, and it would be wonderful if they were aware of this excellent response. But I suspect when the dopamine is flying, even this well-written essay wouldn't sway them. Many models are exceptionally good at what they do (being charming, friendly and sexy entertainers), and some guys are exceptionally ... might I say needy? Enjoyed the read, and it looks like I should be pleased I didn't even scroll to the comments section.

 

[Val]

Troll got trolled!

 

[Ziggie]

haha I love this kind of threads!

 

[marchards]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. What do your discussions usually involve?

The important thing is that you've found a way to feel superior to everyone else.