San Francisco Wants To Criminalize Infant Circumcision

[Bocefish]

California never ceases to amaze me with some of the stuff they try to pass into law... and this is no exception.

Just thought I'd toss it out here for discussion...

What say you?

Circumcision Ban Heading to S.F. Voters
By Advocate.com Editors


A November ballot initiative will ask San Francisco voters if they want to ban circumcision procedures in their city.

The effort to criminalize circumcision is being led by gay San Franciscan Lloyd Schofield, who believes the procedure is barbaric and dangerous, referring to it as "male genital mutilation." Schofield gathered the necessary signatures needed to place it on San Francisco's ballot for the November 8 municipal election, CNN reports. Should San Francisco approve the ban, anyone found performing the procedure could go to jail and face a fine — there would be no religious exemptions.

There are arguments that circumcision cuts down on HIV transmission, but Schofield believes the opposite. He told HIV Plus magazine: "There is a reverse correlation between circumcision and HIV. Some nations in Africa have a higher HIV infection rate—even though most of the men are circumcised—than countries where most of the men are intact. The U.S. has a much higher HIV and STD rate than Europe, and most American men have been circumcised, while most European men are intact."

 

[AlexLady]

I'd be all for it. People used to think circumcision prevented cervical cancer in women, and it doesn't. Hell, there are a few studies that show it might actually -increase- penile cancer in males.

It is mutilation, since it's done without the child's consent if done at berth.

If you want to be circumcised, do it as an adult.

 

[Jupiter551]

Not a fan of cocks in the first place, but uncircumsized ones are definitely creepier

 

[JickyJuly]

I think circumcision is brutal and outdated. It's on its way out of our culture anyway. Not sure if criminalizing it is the best way to proceed since that's just going to make parents who followed through with the tradition defensive and protest-y.

Were I to have a son, I wouldn't even consider circumcision, but I also HATE when babies have their ears pierced. Can we do something about that as well? Body modification and babies just don't mix. :twocents-02cents:

 

[Rose]

considering i live with a *fairly* orthodox jew, i think circumcision is fine. as an adult, hell to the fuck no. all of the adults i know who were circumsized had serious complications because of it from bleeding, infection, etc. both my grandfathers almost died when they were circumsized (they were 35 and 40 something). every infant i know who was circumsized was fine and healed incredibly fast. every guy i've known who wasn't cut, had no clue how to keep it cleaned properly and every single one of them ended up contracting an std or sti. 3 of the 4 ended up with pretty much permanent yeast infections (idiots) and disfiguration....for those with religious reasons, i think it should still be legal. for those who are uncut and plan on staying that way, learn to wash your junk properly. just because you aren't snipped doesn't make your penis any more special than the next. it just makes it dirty and it's not going anywhere near me because of that. i think it's a really personal decision between the parents/caregivers as to whether or not they snip their son. if they don't, then i belive they should teach him how to properly wash it and not slack. smegma is only funny if it's not actually there.

 

[Lydia_Deetz]

As a parent of a child that was uncircumcised and one that was, I prefer circumcision.

Getting this procedure done as an adult carries a lot more risk of infection and complication. My ex stepson was circumcised at the age of 10 and had a lot of pain and complications with cleaning the site. He had to have it done because his parents were not aware that as a child grows you have to stretch the foreskin to fit the head of the penis. Do any of you want to do that with your child? I know I don't. Little boys are not the best at keeping things clean either.

All that being said, I do not like the idea of any government entity telling me what to do with my children and their medical procedures.

 

[AmberCutie]

They should criminalize babies/small children having their ears pierced too, then, since the children can't consent.

I personally don't like "intact" dicks. The extra skin gets in the way of things I want to do to it, and generally feels weird to me. But that's just my opinion. If I had a baby boy I'd circumcise him in infancy. It would really suck if he ended up wishing he was circumcised when he grew up, but had to face the surgery as an adult.

And of course you'll ask "what if he grew up circumcised wishing he had foreskin? There's no surgery he could opt for to get it back." *shrug*

But ultimately, I think there's probably a lot more important things for the California government to be worrying about than this right now. I hate seeing government attention taken away from more pressing matters than morality issues such as this.

 

[Just_mark__]

It's an odd one to make a law.
The US peeps love them some unnecessary surgery though(http://www.naturalnews.com/012291.html), so perhaps that's why it's being considered.

Morally it is wrong to do an unnecessary surgery on a child, but then parents can never be told what is best for their children.

Probably the argument "Because it gets in the way of the stuff Amber wants to do to it" might not be the one to run with when discussing infant circumcision.

 

[Jupiter551]

it's a cultural thing, is not harmful (as opposed to say, female circumcision) and the idea that circumcison could spread STDs is just...ridiculous frankly. Regardless of where it originated and why, for most people it's no longer a religious thing but it's still cultural - are we not allowed to have cultural traditions anymore?

Trust San Francisco to involve themselves with laws relating to penises, they just can't get them off their minds huh...

LOL btw circumcision on a baby isn't "surgery" anymore than getting a piercing is "surgery"

 

[Bocefish]

It really wouldn't surprise me to see S.F. picketers marching around with signs saying: SMEGMA LOVERS UNITE! and wearing hats and shirts like:

 

[AlexLady]

I've only been with one circumcised, and one uncircumcised guy, but they were pretty much the same when they were hard. The uncircumcised guy's skin just pulls back when he goes erect, and the head pops out all the same.

The extra skin is there for a reason I'm sure, probably to protect it. Then again when flaccid, the two look pretty similar.

The only effect on STI's I can see are things like male yeast infections, cure-able stuff, where a guy doesn't wash under the skin. It's just as easy to clean on both. If he doesn't know how to clean it, it's the parent's fault, regardless of how it's cut. Other STD's and STI's however are just as likely.


There can be complications for both babies and adults, however, adults who have gotten it done seem to get benefits out of it vs people were were cut as babies.


As for female circumcision, not all of it is harmful. In some cultures all they do is poke the clit with a needle enough to make it bleed. Sure if the needle is dirty it's one thing, and to us it just sounds crazy; but that's their tradition. Other places they actually chop off the clit, and yeah, everyone here knows that's just crazy. They do this when they hit puberty too, some with just a broken shard of glass. Ouch!

 

[AmberCutie]

The extra skin is there for a reason I'm sure, probably to protect it. Then again when flaccid, the two look pretty similar.

Kind of like how body and pubic hair is there for a reason, to protect us, but we shave it like it's nothin'. There are some things that we should have evolved out of by now.

And when flaccid is when they look most different, IMO. I like to be able to see the head when it's soft. It disappears under foreskin on a soft cock.

 

[tightlockup]

I think this law is less about the actual process but more about causing problems for those who circumcise for religious reasons.

 

[Zoomer]

A November ballot initiative will ask San Francisco voters if they want to ban circumcision procedures in their city.

They want to put it up for a vote...so rather than simple campaigning for the change wanted by few, it'll be open to the majority.

What's the problem?

Thread seems less about that, and more about personal preference for circumcision.

 

[Jupiter551]

Well, if the majority of people do it, the majority of people have nothing particular against the practice, no? I don't think anyone's forced to get their kids circumsized.

And without any evidence that it actually is harmful (US having "more stds than europe" is not evidence), what makes them think they have the right to tell the majority of people to change their ways?

The honest way to go about this, if they have legitimate objections to the practice, would be to campaign against it publicly and convince people to change on their own, then forbidding it by law would be an afterthought. That's unlikely to happen though because there are a bunch of reasons why people prefer circumcision, and really not one credible one to discourage them.

Regarding the vote: why should someone else get to vote on whether my child can go through a non-harmful, traditional cultural/religious custom? It's no different from putting "Should black people be allowed to buy alcohol?" to a vote. Just because the process is democratic doesn't mean it should be something people get to vote on.

Why does everything have to be so fucking legislated these days, god forbid anyone should be able to make their own decisions and be responsible for them.

 

[Bocefish]

It's all ready a choice... they (San Francisco-ites) want to criminalize it, which I find totally absurd. Government has no right to make it illegal.

It might surprise a lot of people that male foreskin is used in a bunch of cosmetics and is actually a big business.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/146761/human_foreskins_are_big_business_for.html

On a personal note, you can't miss what you never knew you had. Aside from the aesthetics, I have yet to see any validated medical reason for circumcision anymore. I can't help but occasionally wonder about all those missing nerve endings and how different it would feel, but no complaints here. :thumbleft:

 

[Just_mark__]

god forbid anyone should be able to make their own decisions and be responsible for them.

So you agree that it should be the decision of the self and not the parents?

 

[Bocefish]

The extra skin is there for a reason I'm sure, probably to protect it. Then again when flaccid, the two look pretty similar.

Kind of like how body and pubic hair is there for a reason, to protect us, but we shave it like it's nothin'. There are some things that we should have evolved out of by now.

I disagree about your idea of evolution of the male foreskin... it's there for a reason and it sounds like a rather pleasurable one at that. Check the above youtube vid.

We have evolved from certain things like wisdom teeth, tails (but we still need the coccyx), the appendix, along with some eye and ear parts we no longer have, but the male foreskin is not one of them.

Did you know we were all born with something called a Jacobson’s organ? It is a fascinating part of anatomy and it tells us a lot about our own sexual history. The organ is in the nose and it has a special “smell” organ which detects pheromones (the chemical that triggers sexual desire, alarm, or information about food trails). It is this organ that allows some animals to track others for sex and to know of potential dangers. Humans are born with the Jacobson’s organ, but in early development its abilities dwindle to a point that it is useless. Once upon a time, humans would have used this organ to locate mates when communication was not possible. Now we have the interwebz and MFC to stalk others. :lol:

 

[Jupiter551]

god forbid anyone should be able to make their own decisions and be responsible for them.

So you agree that it should be the decision of the self and not the parents?

Nope, I wasn't referring specifically to circumcision at that point, but the general trend of society to legislate regarding every potential possible thing one can do. It's this stupid over-legislation and lawsuit culture that leads to things like councils warning residents not to use wire mesh on windows as burglars might hurt themselves climbing through.

On the one hand we're told parents need to take more responsibility for their kids education, social values, literacy, work ethic, financial habits etc... and parents SHOULD take responsibility for those things - it's called raising a child. Then on the other hand you have governments like that SF one going out of their way to be completely invasive and take away peoples rights to make non-harmful decisions about their own offspring...

 

[AmberCutie]

It might surprise a lot of people that male foreskin is used in a bunch of cosmetics and is actually a big business.

So we should keep it legal to cut it off and use it for the greater good: Cosmetics!!

I disagree about your idea of evolution of the male foreskin... it's there for a reason and it sounds like a rather pleasurable one at that.

I'm sure you're right but it was fun to compare.

I just hate government deciding things for people/parents/families. Going back to the Kevorkian debate era... is that when it became such a trend to campaign to have government take personal family decisions away from families?

 

[southsamurai]

well im on the anti circumsion bandwagon and have been for ages. im aware that religious reasons will be exempted fom the law anyway since it is a core practice in judaism, and thats all good... sorry my jewish brothers! but as for myself anyone who chops off a piece of a baby for no good reason needs to be beat with a stick. ad as mentioned above piercings and such need to be banned before a certain age as well... does it need to be 18 like it is for other types of piercing? matter of opinion but to stick holes in or cut pieces off of infants is purely repugnant to me.

 

[AmberCutie]

well im on the anti circumsion bandwagon and have been for ages. im aware that religious reasons will be exempted fom the law anyway since it is a core practice in judaism, and thats all good... sorry my jewish brothers! but as for myself anyone who chops off a piece of a baby for no good reason needs to be beat with a stick. ad as mentioned above piercings and such need to be banned before a certain age as well... does it need to be 18 like it is for other types of piercing? matter of opinion but to stick holes in or cut pieces off of infants is purely repugnant to me.

If it will be made illegal for one, it should be for all. No religious exemptions. That's pure bullshit.

 

[Jupiter551]

As a survivor of circumcision, I don't recall the trauma of the ordeal. Perhaps I blocked it out?

 

[Lydia_Deetz]

As a survivor of circumcision, I don't recall the trauma of the ordeal. Perhaps I blocked it out?

Yeah no one remembers it do they?

Babies are very resilient. I watched this happen to my son, and I cried longer than he did. They also use a topical numbing agent to ease the process.

I am all for other people voicing their opinions but when you are a parent, it is really scary to think that any kind of government can tell you what is right for them.

 

[Rose]

the foreskin is there for humans like it is for animals, to act as a shovel to scoop out the last partner's semen. also, there is a surgery to "get your foreskin back". it's stupid and pretty much pointless. it's like a reverse tummy tuck but looks awful. show me a guy who's uncut who knows how to keep it clean to my standards and i'll be ok with it, but i've yet to see an uncut guy who actually was able to keep it clean. smegma smells disgusting and looks foul. you can't just whipe that off with a baby whipe or toilet paper either. *gags* roomie and i have already discussed this if/when we have babies and one of them happens to be male, they will get snipped for religious and cleanliness reasons. we're deadset on that, just like we want to live in a house and not in a box if we have a baby boy he will get snipped. (likewise, if we have a baby girl she will get her ears pierced at 6 months)

 

[Bocefish]

As a survivor of circumcision, I don't recall the trauma of the ordeal. Perhaps I blocked it out?

Yeah no one remembers it do they?

I vividly remember wanting to grab a scalpel and slice part of that asshole doctor's penis off and tell him it was for his own good.

Seriously tho, nobody remembers it. It chaps my hide too when people think they can legislate what's right for others in what should be personal, private, matters.

 

[LacieLaPlante]

>_> Everyone hears about the things happening in my city before me. I need to get more connected or something.

Anyway.. pro-choice on this issue. What ever happened to freedom?

 

[JaycieFlowers]

Watch some videos of babies getting circumcised on youtube and then imagine doing it to your brand new baby... I couldn't do it. And I think that because it's a rarely seen procedure and it doesn't typically happen in front of the parents that people can just think to themselves "La la la, it's not so bad! It happens all the time and they don't remember!". I do think it's a personal choice, but if parents had to watch it happening to their child then their protective instincts might kick in and they might snatch their baby right out from under that scalpel.
That being said, my first boyfriend that I was sexually active with was uncircumcised, so that's what I learned on and while I don't have a strong preference one way or another, I really like them uncut. Also, is it just me or do circumcised penises tend to be a little more bendy and crooked? Like there wasn't enough room for them to grow straight? It might just be my personal experience but it seems that the uncircumcised guys I've been with always have attractively shaped junk, while cicumcised guys tend to be a little more... all over the place.

Oh well, to each their own. I don't think it should be illegal, but I am glad that it is becoming less and less popular. Guys seem to be pretty thrilled with their 'down theres' either way

 

[AmberCutie]

Watch some videos of babies getting circumcised on youtube and then imagine doing it to your brand new baby... I couldn't do it. And I think that because it's a rarely seen procedure and it doesn't typically happen in front of the parents that people can just think to themselves "La la la, it's not so bad! It happens all the time and they don't remember!". I do think it's a personal choice, but if parents had to watch it happening to their child then their protective instincts might kick in and they might snatch their baby right out from under that scalpel.
That being said, my first boyfriend that I was sexually active with was uncircumcised, so that's what I learned on and while I don't have a strong preference one way or another, I really like them uncut. Also, is it just me or do circumcised penises tend to be a little more bendy and crooked? Like there wasn't enough room for them to grow straight? It might just be my personal experience but it seems that the uncircumcised guys I've been with always have attractively shaped junk, while cicumcised guys tend to be a little more... all over the place.

Oh well, to each their own. I don't think it should be illegal, but I am glad that it is becoming less and less popular. Guys seem to be pretty thrilled with their 'down theres' either way

The most crooked dick I have touched was uncut. But, to reference the highlighted part of the quote, that is why it's nice to have the choice. It's not for everyone, but at least everyone can decide.

 

[LacieLaPlante]

That being said, my first boyfriend that I was sexually active with was uncircumcised, so that's what I learned on and while I don't have a strong preference one way or another, I really like them uncut.

I agree, I like them uncut. My first boyfriend that I was sexually active with was uncircumcised as well and I actually found it more fun to play with! I feel like it's easier to hurt a cut penis LOL.. not that I'm going around hurting penises, but we've all had our accidents.