Religions and Criticism

[Mirra]

With the demonstrations across many countries in the middle east in response to a video/movie made by a US citizen, I've been thinking about the dangers of being critical of religion. I'm about to potentially set myself up for some flames I suspect but I'm going to share my opinion and would love to hear that of others who are as silly as I am to touch on this subject.

I am so fucking sick of everyone getting so damned butthurt over their religious beliefs. It's come to the point where if someone claims something as their religion no matter how absurd it is I think you'd have to reserve your criticism or risk getting yourself or even someone else killed over it. It's your fucking religion, not mine. If I want to blaspheme myself towards your prophet or deity, so be it. I'll pay for it in whatever afterlife your religion ascribes to. You can laugh to yourself as you imagine the terrible wrath I shall incur.

Take the pastafarians. Pastafarianism was intentionally made to seem absurd as an argument against teaching creative design in science classes. If the pastafarians reacted in the way many of the fanatics and zealots of other organized religions react to something they see as a slight to their beliefs, I would probably be threatened for making a limp noodle joke about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Thank goodness the dogma is the joke and only what they're fighting against is serious.

I was born, raised, and still live in the Bible Belt. I keep hearing about some supposed "war on Christianity" but I honestly don't see it. Sometimes it feels like the Christians have declared war on me though. Yet I dare not say anything of the sort for fear of someone getting terribly offended because I don't believe what they believe.

Let's get to a point though, alright? The fact is that I fear a world where certain subjects are off limits to criticism. Without criticism how does one think critically and without thinking critically how can we actually be sure we believe what we've been told? Maybe we're just too afraid to question it. I do not think there should be any subject that is taboo to discussion. I believe anyone should be allowed to say what they think. I also believe anyone should be able to tell someone that what they think is illogical or wrong for reason x, y, or z. I don't think the whole world needs to be homogeneous in order to live together peacefully. I dream of that day and cringe every time I hear the divisive rants of fanatics, zealots, and ignorant sheep regurgitating the words of the previous two.

 

[Wabi_Sabi]

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

 

[sweetiebatman]

All I will say is this


Attack me or something I believe in, and I will rip you to shreds, that's my belief and something I feel passionate about

We live in a beautiful world, We don't even have to understand others faiths to accept them. Theres a lot of good in the world, but theres also a hell of a lot of evil in the "name" of good

 

[Red7227]

I've not had a lot of exposure to Islam as such, but I can say that the cultural baggage that people have can be pretty significant. I've had Maronite christian neighbors who were as obnoxious as can be, spitting on our washing and throwing their garbage over our fence because the girl I was with and I were not married. That was because they were Lebanese Arabs, not because of their religion.

I've known some Turkish people as well, and as long as you stay away from the subject of religion they are fine, but they can get really weird if the subject comes up.

Jews are awesome, I've had long rambling theological arguments with a couple friends, and while they do take their religion seriously, they are much more open to other ideas. They are also not actually stupid, unlike most of the Arabs I've known.

 

[Evvie]

I have a problem not with religious beliefs, but the actions of most organized religions. In my English class in high school, I remember my teacher having to apologize to all the Catholic students for studying their religion's history because the Catholic Church did so many horrible things that, if it were a character in a book, your editor would tell you to tone it down because nobody would believe how awful it was.

My biggest current irritation is that some Protestant, Catholic, Mormon and Muslim people want their religious creation myths and stories to be taught as fact in publicly funded schools. I understand that spreading their religion is part of their beliefs, but I feel very surprised (and sometimes upset) that a Christian advocate might insist that their beliefs be taught as fact instead of scientific theory, while being incredibly offended when the same school tries to educationally spread the beliefs of other non-Judaic religions.

I am also often chagrined that when it comes to religion, many people seem to believe that the "end justifies the means." A while ago I was pretty up in arms because a pagan woman I know spread false information about one pagan religion to make the majority of pagans look better. When I asked her about it, she essentially said it was fine to do what she did because while she was spreading misinformation about a minority pagan religion, if people thought better of all pagans as a result, then it was fine.

I have also noticed that primarily the Christian religion teaches a lot of negativity (hell, Satan, sin, eternal punishment, fear of other religions, revelation, body shaming, strict rules about sexuality and in some cases even race). I understand that this definitely does not represent all Christians, but one of my earliest memories was being told by a Sunday school teacher that I would never be clean unless I dedicated my life to God, and that every action I took in my life was sin because I was imperfect and dirty. I recall very clearly the intense feelings of self-loathing, sorrow and hopelessness I felt when she told me that I would "never be a good person" - I was about four or five years old. I also remember, in my teenage years, being told that researching all other religions was a sin because "Satan is the power behind all religions except Christianity." I have spoken to no person (excepting some ladies on this forum) who was raised as a Christian from childhood about alternative beliefs who did not become fearful or angry. One person I talked to about alternative beliefs said that they were "scary" and she needed to talk to her pastor to get the "right answers". When we spoke again later, she came back with passages highlighted in a Bible about how other religions were wrong, Jesus is the way, et cetera, but with no real thoughts on why. Again - I understand that this is not an accurate representation of all Christians. But in my life, this has been the norm of what I have experienced.

I find theology fascinating and I want to support all people's religious beliefs. In my life I have been very religious and deeply studied a wide range of religions. But when it comes to a point where those people want to replace science with their beliefs, I'm not able to agree that is a good thing. I also do sometimes find myself concerned when people focus on negativity and fear in religion.

 

[Kradek]

 

[Alana Cruise]

I think in general people today are way too sensitive about everything and we are not allowed to speak our mind for fear of offending someone. I got into a huge debate with a family member bc she was insulting anyone who was not christian and I stood up about my beliefs and was told I insulted her and she claimed she was persecuted.

I wonder how long it will take for people to realize religion is a belief not FACT. So we are all going to have different beliefs. We don't have to agree but we should not force out belief or criticize others bc they do not believe the same. :twocents-02cents:

 

[Wabi_Sabi]

that I would never be clean unless I dedicated my life to God

I think that's the gist of it.

 

[Bocefish]

Here's my :twocents-02cents: If you believe killing somebody over your religious beliefs is the right thing to do, start with yourself.

Oh crap, that kinda justifies all those suicide bombings...

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

I'm going to be brief because I expect I'll offend someone with just about every line if I let myself, and I don't wish to do that just because I think I'm right and they're not (and who doesn't think that?).

Basically, I don't care what anyone else believes, as long as they keep it out of my face. I will coexist with just about any belief that doesn't involve messing with others. If you try to tell me what my beliefs should be, I will be unpleasant.

Get any sufficiently large group of people together, and you'll find some bad eggs -- religion A, religion B, religion C, undecideds, agnostics, atheists, anyone. For goodness sake, let's just not kill each over it.

 

[southsamurai]

fuck it, im buddhist, used to be pagan. ive dealt with religious morons who assume their way is the only way for so long im not nice about it any more. you want to worship? fine, do so. you want to come knock on my door and proselytize? be ready to be met by a half naked hairy guy with a weapon and a bad attitude

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

I don't really care what religion you are, until you get violent over it or because someone insulted you or it or something.

After you get hostile "defending" your religion (hey, gods a big boy he dont need you to defend him... k?) I'm pretty much fuck you, fuck your religion and BTW, fuck you again.

People who get violently upset over questioning or criticism of their religion or jokes about the mythical figures in that religion have serious mental issues.

STFU and GTFO if you're gonna be a touchy fucktard about your mythology.

Oh wait, did the word mythology upset you?
GOOD!
:lol:

 

[LolasLiger]

As an atheist I don’t believe in god, and by extension, any religion. However, I consider religion interesting at two levels. There is the theological (including exegetical and hermeneutic analysis) generically called Biblical Criticism in Christianity, Tafsir in Islam and Midrash in Judaism), and the cultural. Both present problems though, especially when they run contrary to the way that the grass-roots followers interpret their own beliefs.

On the theological level, believers have obviously internalized the teachings of their particular religion, and though they may not follow all the tenants all of the time, they still feel that it reflects part or all of their identity. Thus, when their religion is criticized then they feel that it is a personal criticism. As with anything else in life, how they react to that criticism is dependent upon personality, peer pressure, and under what circumstances those criticisms were made.

There is also the cultural aspects of religion. Islam, just like Christianity and Judaism, is not a single entity. Not only are there different denominations in each religion, but how they are interpreted and lived, vary across the world. Islam in Asia is very different from the Middle East, as is that practiced in parts of Africa. In each area, there are fundamentalists, and then there are those who merely identify with the religion, because it is an extension of them identifying with a particular community. So when someone criticizes their religion, then they see it as criticism of their way of life. It happened in Europe with different Christian denominations at each others' throats. For example, it is happening now with the widening gulfs between European Christians and African ones, and once the split is formalised (which is most likely will) then I predict a lot more violence in Africa with fundementalist Christians taking a lead in trying to drive out the more *moderate* European Christians.

How those reactions manifest themselves may seem poles apart though. We react to news reports of rioting in the Middle East, but I would ask what other ways do people in such communities have to show their displeasure, and for that displeasure to be noticed? It is not America or Europe, where a peaceful sit-in will be on the news. Such simple protests would be ignored by the world’s media.

Even though I am an atheist, I still identify myself as a Sikh. Not because I believe in the religious aspects of that community but because I was brought up in a Sikh family, I learned and absorbed aspects of that culture, I identify with some of the value systems of that community, and because it allows me to then identify which parts of me are from the “other” (in my case, being born and brought up in Britain, it allows me juxtapose aspects of my identity that I can see are British against those that are Indian…as with many children of immigrants, it is a way for me to synthesis two very different cultures without feeling schizophrenic).

But even in Sikhism, there are fundamentalists. I came across a lot of resistance and criticism when I was doing my doctoral research on the place of disability with Sikhism because I brought into question the Sikh belief in equality. Though plainly written in their texts that the disabled were, basically, second class citizens, to be excluded from many aspects of religious activity, fundamentalists saw it as a direct attack on their whole religion, rather than just one small aspect.

However, to be able to make such criticisms, one has to KNOW that religion, to have studied it, to have compared its tenets against how it is lived, to have analysed its effects on particular groups within that religion, and to the wider society if that religious group is a minority.

The “Innocence of Muslims” movie does none of these things. It is not surprising, in my opinion, that muslims have reacted the way they have. The movie doesn’t make any attempts at analyzing Islam in its own right. Rather, it is a hate-movie, specifically intended to insult Muslims. It makes unfounded claims (unfounded in as far as they are not legitimate arguments against aspects of Islamic teachings based upon academic research). The whole point of the movie is to be anti-Islamic. No different from someone making a racist movie, and then claiming that they were just trying to open peoples’ eyes to what black people were really like. We deride the Nazis for producing “Der ewige Jude”, not just because it upsets Jews, but because the content was specifically meant to offend them, and also to validate anti-semitism. This latest movie is doing the same thing…validating Islamophobia.

 

[Red7227]

I think in general people today are way too sensitive about everything and we are not allowed to speak our mind for fear of offending someone. I got into a huge debate with a family member bc she was insulting anyone who was not christian and I stood up about my beliefs and was told I insulted her and she claimed she was persecuted.

I wonder how long it will take for people to realize religion is a belief not FACT. So we are all going to have different beliefs. We don't have to agree but we should not force out belief or criticize others bc they do not believe the same. :twocents-02cents:

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts

 

[LolaSmiles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGmh_w05 ... plpp_video

Yes, I know the joke is offensive, but offending people is something I am quite used to. It's not the joke that interests me so much as the conversation that takes place because of the joke.

 

[Jupiter551]

So many wars in the name of religion, but I can't think of even one in the name of atheism.

 

[lordmagellan]

For almost as long as I can remember, I've wanted to find a group of illiterate- possibly tribesmen- people who haven't really been exposed to anything in the "civilized" world and show them the Star Wars films. I just want to see if I can establish belief in the Force as an actual religion. And, of course, the Sith, afterward; duality and all that.

 

[Nordling]

For almost as long as I can remember, I've wanted to find a group of illiterate- possibly tribesmen- people who haven't really been exposed to anything in the "civilized" world and show them the Star Wars films. I just want to see if I can establish belief in the Force as an actual religion. And, of course, the Sith, afterward; duality and all that.

Kind of like the Cargo Cults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

 

[lordmagellan]

For almost as long as I can remember, I've wanted to find a group of illiterate- possibly tribesmen- people who haven't really been exposed to anything in the "civilized" world and show them the Star Wars films. I just want to see if I can establish belief in the Force as an actual religion. And, of course, the Sith, afterward; duality and all that.

Kind of like the Cargo Cults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

Similar, sure.

 

[Nordling]

For almost as long as I can remember, I've wanted to find a group of illiterate- possibly tribesmen- people who haven't really been exposed to anything in the "civilized" world and show them the Star Wars films. I just want to see if I can establish belief in the Force as an actual religion. And, of course, the Sith, afterward; duality and all that.

Kind of like the Cargo Cults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

Similar, sure.

I'm guessing you'd end up with a hybrid: part Star Wars, part whatever they were before your "mission" began. Just like the so-called "great religions" have done in the past. In Christianity, we have Easter (a nature religion before the Christians tried to change them), and Christmas (Saturnalia). And then, as we've seen, the nature religions get incorporated into the main body of the invading religion. Mormonism seems to be a strange amalgam of Masonic rites with a bit of Cabalism thrown in. Oh, yeah, and some SF type stuff before SF even existed. lol "Planet Kolob."

 

[Wabi_Sabi]

So many wars in the name of religion, but I can't think of even one in the name of atheism.

There were a few interesting studies into this recently,linky
A snippet:

Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed.

Imagining a world with no religion might be aided by imagining a combination of Mao's China, Stalin's USSR & a sprinkling of Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.

 

[Nordling]

So many wars in the name of religion, but I can't think of even one in the name of atheism.

There were a few interesting studies into this recently,linky
A snippet:

Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed.

Imagining a world with no religion might be aided by imagining a combination of Mao's China, Stalin's USSR & a sprinkling of Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.

No, those sad regimes had de facto religions too... Personality Cults. There was a reason there were statues all over the place of Stalin and Mao. And today, North Korea... the last three leaders built up their images as one would a god.

 

[RogueWarrior]

Oh, Mirra, if you think you've set yourself up, I may be just about to ostracize myself from the forum. That's facetious. Most people here are open-minded enough not to take things too personally as has been demonstrated in the responses to your OP.

As you may or may not have noticed (I see a few new faces here), I was absent from ACF for a couple of months. In that time, I have deleted my MFC account. Why? Well that is a multi-tiered answer.

I am a Christian. There, I said it. Yeah, I believe the book of fairy tales. I felt it was wrong for me to frequent MFC. I don't judge others. I have done many bad things in my life, much worse than visiting a website. Therefore I have no grounds for placing judgement on others.

Now, you're thinking, with this recent "revelation" why I am I still an active ACF member? Well, you know, I've developed some relationships here. Now, how would that reflect upon me and what I propose to stand for if I abandoned people just because I had an epiphany?

Religious zealots, or zealots of any kind for that matter, give everyone with whom they associate with a black eye. In the secular world, environmentalists and PETA come to mind. The kooks give all associated a bad name.

For those that don't want to hear anything pertaining to religion, I am reminded of something that noted atheist Penn Gillette (of Penn and Teller) said. And I paraphrase here, but the idea is genuinely his. He said that he never minds when someone tries to tell him about their religion because those that don't he wonders why they would hate him so much that they would not tell him how to avoid hell. He also points out that this does not apply to someone screaming in his face about his eternal damnation, but rather brought up in intelligent conversation.

Now, I should probably put in the obligatory "my $0.02" smiley. But I feel it's worth at least a nickel. Someone send me a token, bb's.

 

[Evvie]

For those that don't want to hear anything pertaining to religion, I am reminded of something that noted atheist Penn Gillette (of Penn and Teller) said. And I paraphrase here, but the idea is genuinely his. He said that he never minds when someone tries to tell him about their religion because those that don't he wonders why they would hate him so much that they would not tell him how to avoid hell. He also points out that this does not apply to someone screaming in his face about his eternal damnation, but rather brought up in intelligent conversation.

Now, I should probably put in the obligatory "my $0.02" smiley. But I feel it's worth at least a nickel. Someone send me a token, bb's.

My pastor had an interesting sermon several years ago about missionary work and similar endeavors. The story is thus:

A Christian couple moves in to a secular neighborhood.
The week after they move in, they knock on all the doors in their neighborhood and tell people about their religion. But nobody is responsive.

The next week, they invite their church to have a big outdoor service on their lawn with gospel music and loud sermons for hours. Nobody in their neighborhood converts.

The next week, they hire a blimp, affix it with loudspeakers, and rove the neighborhood for twelve hours preaching loudly and throwing thousands of fliers down to the houses below.

The next week, they are served a notice by the city telling them they need to stop harassing their neighbors. The Christian couple are shocked, hurt, and afraid that in this modern day and age they are being persecuted for their beliefs.

 

[AllisonWilder]

Aside from a few weddings, I haven't stepped foot in a church since I was 8. I knew then that religion wasn't for me. I'm genuinely fascinated and intrigued by religion. I love to learn about it and have researched quite a bit in the past, but ultimately it's just not for me. I was baptized in a Presbyterian church as an infant so I suppose that's what I technically am, but I don't feel any connection.

The way I see it is that there might be some higher power, but I'm not going to base all my decisions and beliefs on what-ifs and things that can never be proven to me so I choose to just believe in myself because at the end of the day, my judgement of myself is the only one that's going to matter anyways.

I don't usually speak about religion because it's such a touchy subject and when I try to explain that I only believe in myself because I'm the only power I have to answer to I get berated and chastised like a child. I don't push my beliefs and I expect the same courtesy. So long as I don't have a fanatic in my face I'll never say anything negative to anyone about their beliefs, no matter how far-fetched I think they are.

 

[Jupiter551]

My pastor had an interesting sermon several years ago about missionary work and similar endeavors. The story is thus:

A Christian couple moves in to a secular neighborhood.
The week after they move in, they knock on all the doors in their neighborhood and tell people about their religion. But nobody is responsive.

The next week, they invite their church to have a big outdoor service on their lawn with gospel music and loud sermons for hours. Nobody in their neighborhood converts.

The next week, they hire a blimp, affix it with loudspeakers, and rove the neighborhood for twelve hours preaching loudly and throwing thousands of fliers down to the houses below.

The next week, they are served a notice by the city telling them they need to stop harassing their neighbors. The Christian couple are shocked, hurt, and afraid that in this modern day and age they are being persecuted for their beliefs.

Lol that's awesome, so I take it your pastor wasn't advocating the 'shove-their-noses-in-it-til-they-submit' school of thought.

 

[Red7227]

Imagining a world with no religion might be aided by imagining a combination of Mao's China, Stalin's USSR & a sprinkling of Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.

The world sucks because your average human is a douche bag, not because of religion. Religion has been a moderating factor, but the extremists are are making the most noise these days.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

Imagining a world with no religion might be aided by imagining a combination of Mao's China, Stalin's USSR & a sprinkling of Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.

The world sucks because your average human is a douche bag, not because of religion.

QFTW

 

[Jupiter551]

So many wars in the name of religion, but I can't think of even one in the name of atheism.

There were a few interesting studies into this recently,linky
A snippet:

Moreover, the chief complaint against religion -- that it is history's prime instigator of intergroup conflict -- does not withstand scrutiny. Religious issues motivate only a small minority of recorded wars. The Encyclopedia of Wars surveyed 1,763 violent conflicts across history; only 123 (7 percent) were religious. A BBC-sponsored "God and War" audit, which evaluated major conflicts over 3,500 years and rated them on a 0-to-5 scale for religious motivation (Punic Wars = 0, Crusades = 5), found that more than 60 percent had no religious motivation. Less than 7 percent earned a rating greater than 3. There was little religious motivation for the internecine Russian and Chinese conflicts or the world wars responsible for history's most lethal century of international bloodshed.

Imagining a world with no religion might be aided by imagining a combination of Mao's China, Stalin's USSR & a sprinkling of Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.

Right, I'll accept your figures for the sake of the discussion, but 123 wars in the name of religion - and how many in the name of atheism? Or are you saying that the number of wars, and millions of deaths, in the name of religion should be tallied up against all conflicts and regimes that weren't directly in the name of religion?

That's like saying The Beatles weren't such a successful pop group because look at all the times they DIDN'T have the number one single over the last 50 years.

 

[southsamurai]

well im bored, so im going to chime in.

i went to baptist churches til i was around 12. heard some really silly shit, i mean really silly. by 9 or so i was asking questions that led to me being told several times to stfu more or less (no not in those words, but it was the gist.) i found a book in the local library about wicca. read it several times over. now intellectually i didnt think it was any less a "fairy tale" than anything i had ever heard in bible school. but what i did find was something that the baptists never gave me. simple directions on how to behave in all circumstances. christian morality is based on a huge book that is often self contradictory. since i was by that time reading up on jungian psychology i had no problem with the idea of deity as archetype so i could enjoy the ritual and prettiness of wicca way more than christianity.

years pass, my little child's mind grew physically and emotionally and in education. i re-explored christianity in all it many colored coats. catholicism ended up being my favorite because of the pomp and ceremony. baptist and evangelical my least favorite because of the hatred and anger they spew as a group. around here you cant go to a baptist church and not hear more about what other people are doing wrong than what you should do right.

i also found that as a whole christians are more likely as a group to reach out and help strangers than other religions locally. its supposedly true in most of the western world. dunno havent been there myself lol. ut down here in the south for every state run or secular charity, theres probably 3 or 4 that are run by a church. in all my years as a wiccan i never personally found one in my region that lasted more than a year or so that was run by a wiccan coven. (and yes thats largely because wicca is done in smaller groups than the average church)

round about 10-12 years ago i had run the course of my love of wicca's ritual and plundered its philosphy as much as i could. i discovered that when it came right down to it the way i look at the world was more in keeping with taoism than wicca overall. and the way i believed i should live and act more buddhist. heck even aleister crowley's bastardized mind was closer to who i was than typical wicca. and believe it or not the average wiccan i ever met was more of an asshole than the average christian.

so i cut loose of the wiccan/pagan label in my own mind. broke out the brain glue and tagged on the buddhist/taoist one. it still fits me closest of any. it isnt as simple as wicca in it's moral code, and since im more zen than any other type there isnt as much ritual, but it still makes me behave in a better way to others when i make myself adhere to it. and since im a bit of a nutcase i have to make myself adhere to non-violence lol.

of the other religions, i never joined in to any degree that was more than research of n intellectual level. none of the abrahmic religions are much different from christianity overall if you dont have the faith yourself. and put bluntly the only things i have faith in are pain, suffering, death and taxes. you aint gunna get through life without those hitting you eventually.

so now im in a place where i personally dont care what anyone else's religion is as long as the leave me the eff alone to meditate in peace, or as close as i can get anyway. im still an asshole inside my head. i still want to throttle the hell out of 90 percent of all human beings. i still wish that humans would realize that they are hairless monkeys so they could start dealing with the problems that brings about since we're very smart monkeys. but at least im much more polite lol

btw, im well aware that this is waaaayyy off the topic by the OP, and off of the thread's flow, but like i said, im bored as frak