Queen's speech includes porn age verification in the UK.

[Fatquack]

When they tried the age verification thing in Germany (where you actually had to upload a copy of your ID!) most sites just moved to another country.
But this UK law is not about porn, it's about control of the internet and censorship. Once they have a handy system in place to block sites at the ISP level they will start blocking the next thing they don't like.
I recommend reading this site: http://sexandcensorship.org/

 

[Zoomer]

The inclusion of this intention makes it pretty much confirmed. I have no problem with this as it goes some way to halting under age viewers...of course there are ways round it but it's a start and a deterrent to some.

As sites such as MFC and CB allow full shows in free public chat they will, in time be blocked by UK ISPs. I don't suppose those sites will give two hoots about lost revenue...it will be a drop in their vast ocean and determined viewers will always find a way to watch.

Beats me why all sites can't simply comply and enforce.

...except, in the UK you have to "Opt in" to view pornography from major ISP's as part of a Government led initiative - and it has been that way for years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23401076

Additionally, blocks on content and sites have been in place at a parental level for the last decade...

How, exactly, are they going to do the "age verification" - because if it is "hand over your credit card details..."
1) That does not actually confirm who you are. Remotely.
2) Handing over bank details to "prove age" seems incredibly dodgy.

How "age verification" is going to protect the kids I don't know. Torrents? File sharing? Is there any evidence that this is causing an issue?

Not sure what problem this is supposed to address which other measures didn't already try to.

Sites such as Adultwork, which is very UK-centric and has always banned non-private shows will be fine.

What on earth gives you that idea? It's a pornography site, it will require age verification before entering. The fact the naked porn may require payments to see is irrelevant. It WILL require age verification.

There is no way I will be filling in my credit card details on any old site. Who the very fuck knows what happens with that?

VPN time when this comes in...

I'd like to see all sites comply. We all complain about freeloaders and this would go a long way to excluding them.

Aware this is the third time i quote your posts, it isn't personal, just think there are points to be made around what you say...
Why do you think this will stop freeloaders?
1) It's only UK based, so the 99% of the freeloading public from the rest of the world will keep freeloading.
2) Credit card details to confirm != credit card payment and tipping models. I can easily enter in details to confirm my age... and then freeload as normal.

Some comments really don't make a huge amount of sense.

 

[penfold_43]

As sites such as MFC and CB allow full shows in free public chat they will, in time be blocked by UK ISPs. I don't suppose those sites will give two hoots about lost revenue...it will be a drop in their vast ocean and determined viewers will always find a way to watch.

Beats me why all sites can't simply comply and enforce.

The ISP I use blocks nothing and has taken a principled stand that they will not be censors and will not accept customers that want "adult content filters" imposed at ISP level (they will not accept your subscription and direct you to subscribe to a different ISP if you want that). Further, they will start moving as much of their operation off shore as is required to circumvent any legislation that forces them to act as an agent of government censorship. Whilst I use them for technical reasons (IPv6 support, and other things) I completely support their opposition to government censorship.

At present no internet sites are blocked by Her Majesty's Government, some are blocked by some ISPs as a result of court orders obtained against those specific ISPs (usually they go after BT Internet, Sky, talktalk and virgin media) to impose the blocks of specific sites (these are mostly torrent / newsgroup index sites, and the court orders are obtained by big Hollywood studios under the Copyright, Designs and Patents act), some are blocked by adult content filtering offered by ISPs that is user contollable, and some are blocked by a system called "Cleanfeed" which ISPs can subscribe to and operates at network level so users can't opt out. This is what was responsible for almost all UK internet users losing edit rights on Wikipedia when it got flagged for hosting suspected child pornography (namely a Scorpions album cover that one could buy in Our Price) and everyone started appearing as having an IP address from the filter which blocked the ability to edit.

If the home secretary grants herself a new power to censor websites (or more specifically, to direct that they are censored at network level by ISPs) it sets a really dangerous precedent.

 

[Zoomer]

The ISP I use blocks nothing and has taken a principled stand that they will not be censors and will not accept customers that want "adult content filters" imposed at ISP level (they will not accept your subscription and direct you to subscribe to a different ISP if you want that). Further, they will start moving as much of their operation off shore as is required to circumvent any legislation that forces them to act as an agent of government censorship. Whilst I use them for technical reasons (IPv6 support, and other things) I completely support their opposition to government censorship.

At present no internet sites are blocked by Her Majesty's Government, some are blocked by some ISPs as a result of court orders obtained against those specific ISPs (usually they go after BT Internet, Sky, talktalk and virgin media) to impose the blocks of specific sites (these are mostly torrent / newsgroup index sites, and the court orders are obtained by big Hollywood studios under the Copyright, Designs and Patents act), some are blocked by adult content filtering offered by ISPs that is user contollable, and some are blocked by a system called "Cleanfeed" which ISPs can subscribe to and operates at network level so users can't opt out. This is what was responsible for almost all UK internet users losing edit rights on Wikipedia when it got flagged for hosting suspected child pornography (namely a Scorpions album cover that one could buy in Our Price) and everyone started appearing as having an IP address from the filter which blocked the ability to edit.

If the home secretary grants herself a new power to censor websites (or more specifically, to direct that they are censored at network level by ISPs) it sets a really dangerous precedent.

Not quite sure who your ISP is - but if they operate (i.e provide a service) within the UK, then they must comply with the law.

 

[Puffin]

...except, in the UK you have to "Opt in" to view pornography from major ISP's as part of a Government led initiative - and it has been that way for years.

As someone in the UK this is NOT true. I have never had to opt-in for porn sites.

 

[MadJohnson]

So, it's worth pointing out that it's relatively easy for large sites to implement different, per-country policies. MFC could easily require additional age-verification (credit card? something else?) for users accessing the site from the UK whilst still allowing open access for the rest of the world. If this passes, I suspect doing that is somewhat more likely than throwing in the towel on the UK entirely, but who knows what Leo really thinks.

As an aside, it's quite tragic to see the UK continuing to go in this direction. Not only do these measures further erode personal freedoms of its citizens, they put into place both a policy and a technical regime in which additional censorship becomes not only possible but perhaps even the norm.

By contrast, most ISPs in the US do not have such mechanisms even in place (although there are a few that do). Many would be quite reticent to even attempt to implement such a scheme.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

This discussion does make me happy the US has a written 1st amendment protecting free speech.

That said I'm quite sympathetic to what the UK is trying to do. Requiring adult sites to get credit card information, does provide a significant barrier to kids (e.g under 13) getting access to hardcore porn. It is certainly not foolproof but it is a much hell of a bigger barrier than the current MFC system of asking users to verify that they are over 18 which, I doubt has stopped more than a few dozen kids. Under 10% of all internet user uses torrents and I imagine it is an even smaller number of internet users under 12.

As far as the harm it causes. The honest answer is we don't know the impact of pornography on children. In general, watching porn doesn't seem to cause too many issues among most adults. They are maybe some issue with porn addiction and watching excessive amounts of porn among young adults can cause performance problems. But as vices going watching porn is pretty benign.

However, kids aren't just little adults, their brains are different. How their brain processes transexual gangbangs and such is anybody's guess. Right now we are conducting a mostly worldwide experiment (except for China) where hundreds of millions of kids have access to porn, much of which I never saw before I was 40. I am not real happy with the size of this experiment. So I'm perfectly happy to go through the inconvenience of entering my credit card information if will reduce the exposure of kids to porn.

 

[RebeccaT]

My original post was simply a heads up.

 

[LailaBaise]

As someone in the UK this is NOT true. I have never had to opt-in for porn sites.

Yeah, I've never even heard of this. Weird myth about the UK?

 

[FluffyGalore]

Adultwork already have age verification. Something which most members don't do. As models we can choose to accept only age verified customers but it limits who we can do shows for.

I don't quite get this. Will this new shit mean that as a cam model in the uk I won't be able to cam in MFC as it offers free chat and no age verification, or any other site for that matter?

 

[RebeccaT]

Those opposed to strict enforcement will be pushing for a simple "are you over 18?" splash screen but others believe the need to enter credit card details would deter the casual under age viewer.

It will be what it will be. Porn always finds a way.

 

[Mila_]

Thank you for making this thread Rebecca, it's a really interesting topic.

I dont know if I understand what is going on correctly... does this mean the UK will block access to all pornsites unless they force users to verify their age through credit card info? If that is the case it's perfect!

I realize most of you tend to hate my opinions but we should protect little humans from porn. And there is also the issue of basic decency. I am okay with prostitution, stripping and camsites, but I am also a fan of doors.

And lately porn is so easily accessible and there is so much of it competition forces them to reach new levels of low. It seems we can no longer get turned on unless there is something unethical going on, you know, porn where someone is being tricked.

So I am a fan of putting a lid on this debauchery the internet has become so we can at least pretend to be decent during the daytime.

Anddddd I am not going to lie, I also think this is fantastic for business, making sure 100% of the viewers at least have the capacity to pay for things is exciting, and once they entered their credit card info once, they will be more likely to enter it again. They might be reticent at the beginning but if it is a sine qua non condition they will get used to it.

Also, how sweet is a world in which all porn is behind a paywall? this is so exciting.

 

[LydiaFrost]

When they tried the age verification thing in Germany (where you actually had to upload a copy of your ID!) most sites just moved to another country.
But this UK law is not about porn, it's about control of the internet and censorship. Once they have a handy system in place to block sites at the ISP level they will start blocking the next thing they don't like.
I recommend reading this site: http://sexandcensorship.org/

Germany actually has an institution that exists to protect kids online and if you run a website that is on a german server they will bother you at some point with the restrictions i mentioned earlier in this thread. Even as a sexworker hosting a website to advertise your services and you are forced to have your real id/adress on your website by law, so they will contact you and force you to obey.

I checked german camsites, none of them show you stuff before signing up with your credit card on file, other sites are on servers that are out of the country to get around it.

Am i the only one who would feel weird about entering your creditcard information into a site before seeing what it is all about?

 

[Mila_]

Germany actually has an institution that exists to protect kids online and if you run a website that is on a german server they will bother you at some point with the restrictions i mentioned earlier in this thread. Even as a sexworker hosting a website to advertise your services and you are forced to have your real id/adress on your website by law, so they will contact you and force you to obey.

I checked german camsites, none of them show you stuff before signing up with your credit card on file, other sites are on servers that are out of the country to get around it.

Am i the only one who would feel weird about entering your creditcard information into a site before seeing what it is all about?

I think the weirdness comes from the fact that we have never had to verify anything online. Do you feel weird when they ask to see your ID at a club before you enter? What if you have never been to that club before? Would you show them your ID? We all do it because we expect it.

Showing your ID online is not as effective because most people know how to alter it on photoshop. Credit card info is impossible to fake. Sure, a kid can steal a parents card, but it takes some balls, planning, and work, and he will have to deal with consequences which is a deterrent.

 

[weirdbr]

Am i the only one who would feel weird about entering your creditcard information into a site before seeing what it is all about?

Nope, you're not the only one - why would I care to do that when I don't know it will be worth it and whether the site is safe enough that my credit card data wont be stolen?

Considering that even large corporations do stupid things with credit card data all the time, I really don't want to imagine what small companies will do - all this porn verification system does is create a huge amount of data that becomes interesting only to those wanting to blackmail people (did you forget that porn access has a lot of stigma still? Imagine if this system was implemented - sooner or later, lots of people with lots to lose if their sexual preferences became public will become targets for criminals who get their hands on those databases)

 

[LydiaFrost]

I think the weirdness comes from the fact that we have never had to verify anything online. Do you feel weird when they ask to see your ID at a club before you enter? What if you have never been to that club before? Would you show them your ID? We all do it because we expect it.

Showing your ID online is not as effective because most people know how to alter it on photoshop. Credit card info is impossible to fake. Sure, a kid can steal a parents card, but it takes some balls, planning, and work, and he will have to deal with consequences which is a deterrent.

Yeah. I think i feel mostly weird about it, because so many sites look kinda..scummy and i don't want to have my credit card info stolen. Not talking about big sites like streamate or myfreecams or similar well known sites.

 

[Mila_]

Nope, you're not the only one - why would I care to do that when I don't know it will be worth it and whether the site is safe enough that my credit card data wont be stolen?

Considering that even large corporations do stupid things with credit card data all the time, I really don't want to imagine what small companies will do - all this porn verification system does is create a huge amount of data that becomes interesting only to those wanting to blackmail people (did you forget that porn access has a lot of stigma still? Imagine if this system was implemented - sooner or later, lots of people with lots to lose if their sexual preferences became public will become targets for criminals who get their hands on those databases)

Skip those sites! Websites that look sketchy will fail. The law will force sites to care about their reputation and actually be decent to their costumers. And the UK is a civilized country so if they fuck you over you get to sue them for the big bucks.

Also, you wont die of porn deprivation. I wouldn't go into a dive bar on a sketchy part of town that looks like I will get shot or herpes in their toilet. So skip the internet back alleys and you will be fine.

 

[weirdbr]

Skip those sites! Websites that look sketchy will fail.

Looks don't matter when it comes to data safety - I know plenty of fancy looking sites and companies that had their data stolen.

 

[DFT]

It's hard to avoid being sketchy, recently that means don't use a Play Station, work for the United States government or post a profile on Linked In.

Actually, with those three I agree.

I propose we elevate the discussion back to the philosophical goods and harms.

 

[Mila_]

Looks don't matter when it comes to data safety - I know plenty of fancy looking sites and companies that had their data stolen.

And yet... does that stop you from buying stuff at Amazon? Does it stop you from buying tokens at MFC? What could a site contain in the member area that would make you feel better about giving them your info?

There have been a million instances in which people's credit card info gets stolen from restaurants, cabs, and stores. Do you pay for everything in cash because of it? I doubt it.

Porn online got out of hand a long time ago, the UK is right in enforcing their laws, and that is more important than someone getting their rocks off

 

[weirdbr]

And yet... does that stop you from buying stuff at Amazon? Does it stop you from buying tokens at MFC? What could a site contain in the member area that would make you feel better about giving them your info?

It doesn't stop me, because I know for a fact that if Amazon gets owned, they will have to provide me with a lot of legal coverage (see what Target had to do, for example). Smaller sites are always a gamble, but I trust my credit card insurance for that. My argument was to show how bad your argument that how 'sketchy' a site looks is a not any sign of how secure they are.

Porn online got out of hand a long time ago, the UK is right in enforcing their laws, and that is more important than someone getting their rocks off

I like how people are going 'porn is bad, must be contained' - this is no different to the hysteria from previous generations when something new became popular among the youth - be it radio, tv, rock n roll, etc, etc - they all claimed it would be the end of polite civilisation as we knew it, but look - we're still alive and kicking.

Now, to change your perspective a bit - think of this ban in terms of banning access to anything that includes adult content - for example, Michelangelo's Davi or some of the other renaissance-era art which includes highly detailed nude portrayals - is that OK for you as well?

The problem here is that for some reason the UK has decided that being a Nanny state is great and that parents have no responsibility into the rearing of their children and teaching them what is right or wrong; thankfully the way this thing is being done is going against a lot of anti-censorship rules from the EU, which means it's only a matter of time until the UK wastes a ton of money in trying to explain itself to the ECJ.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I don't understand the paranoia about entering your credit card number. What's the worse that can happen your card number is sold and somebody goes out and buys $30,000 worth of stuff or whatever your limit is. You aren't liable for ANY fraudulent activity on your credit card. If happens and has to me probably 5 or 6 times, (two times were local merchants). You call up your credit card company, they cancel your card, and send you a new one in the mail in a few days. I have never had any problems getting the charges reversed. Worse case you have to update your netflix, internet, itune etc account with a new card number. I doubt I've spent more than 3 phones calls and 2 hours dealing with the hassles. I suppose if you have only one credit card it could be bigger deal, but get a second credit card, and don't put the number on the internet.

 

[Puffin]

I don't understand the paranoia about entering your credit card number. What's the worse that can happen your card number is sold and somebody goes out and buys $30,000 worth of stuff or whatever your limit is. You aren't liable for ANY fraudulent activity on your credit card. If happens and has to me probably 5 or 6 times, (two times were local merchants). You call up your credit card company, they cancel your card, and send you a new one in the mail in a few days. I have never had any problems getting the charges reversed. Worse case you have to update your netflix, internet, itune etc account with a new card number. I doubt I've spent more than 3 phones calls and 2 hours dealing with the hassles. I suppose if you have only one credit card it could be bigger deal, but get a second credit card, and don't put the number on the internet.

I have an acquaintance that lost £40,000 (about $60,000 US) due to credit card fraud. The credit card company wouldn't refund because he didn't report it quick enough, he went on a holiday to Australia and didn't discover the problem until he got home.

 

[Mila_]

I like how people are going 'porn is bad, must be contained' - this is no different to the hysteria from previous generations when something new became popular among the youth - be it radio, tv, rock n roll, etc, etc - they all claimed it would be the end of polite civilisation as we knew it, but look - we're still alive and kicking.

Now, to change your perspective a bit - think of this ban in terms of banning access to anything that includes adult content - for example, Michelangelo's Davi or some of the other renaissance-era art which includes highly detailed nude portrayals - is that OK for you as well?

That's not an argument. Just because I got the flu and it didn't kill me, it doesn't mean ebola wont.

The fact that Western Civilization is in decline is not a matter of uninformed opinion. Many very respected historians, philosophers and intellectuals agree that we are witnessing our own decline pretty much like Rome did.

Our fertility rate is not even at replacement level and it can be argued that it has a lot to do with the sexual revolution. The family which is the building block of any society has been pretty much discarded as a model at least by my generation.

My generation is not getting married, we are not having kids, some of it has to do with the economy, but a big chunk of my generation considers it a cause. It is a philosophical stance. And it has an impact on our societies.

Is porn the sole cause? No... but it does contribute. 100 years ago before modern photography, movies, porn, and the sexual revolution if you wanted to see a girl naked you had to marry her. Now we have waifus, people who think 2d girls are better than 3d, husbands that wont fuck their wives because porn is available and jacking off is so easy, etc. Couple that one up with the flash divorces and the broken alimony system and you have a recipe for destruction.

And I get it, you might very well call me a cynic, if I believe porn is bad for society and I cam I must be a hypocrite.. and maybe I am, but there is little one person can do when the whole system is corrupt. In a healthy society prostitution/porn/etc is not a problem because it happens behind closed doors and it is separated from public life. In that context it might actually be positive, it could help men from ruining young women and coping with an unattractive wife. But in a decadent society like ours riddled with feminism and "gender equality" with an unparalleled sensitivity to any form of authority, no discipline and where any form of control is seen as an infringement on "MUH LIBERTY" it is poison.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I have an acquaintance that lost £40,000 (about $60,000 US) due to credit card fraud. The credit card company wouldn't refund because he didn't report it quick enough, he went on a holiday to Australia and didn't discover the problem until he got home.

I suspect there is something your acquaintance isn't telling you. In the US if your card if physically stolen or lost you are liable for a max of $50 if you report the fraudulent activity with 60 days of receiving the statement. If it is just your number that is stolen you have NO liability and the 60 day requirement doesn't normally apply. I don't know about the laws in the UK but according to the wiki. and upon reading the text of the 1974 Credit Card act.

United Kingdom[edit]
In the UK, credit cards are regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (amended 2006). This provides a number of protections and requirements.

Any misuse of the card, unless deliberately criminal on the part of the cardholder, must be refunded by the merchant or card issuer.

Your acquaintance must pretty rich not to notice a $60K charge.

 

[Puffin]

I suspect there is something your acquaintance isn't telling you. In the US if your card if physically stolen or lost you are liable for a max of $50 if you report the fraudulent activity with 60 days of receiving the statement. If it is just your number that is stolen you have NO liability and the 60 day requirement doesn't normally apply. I don't know about the laws in the UK but according to the wiki. and upon reading the text of the 1974 Credit Card act.


Your acquaintance must pretty rich not to notice a $60K charge.

When you sign up for a credit card, you agree to the 'terms and conditions', one of the conditions is that you report any fraud within a set time. He failed to report within the time, because he didn't know until he got home from Australia and opened the statement in the mail.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

The problem here is that for some reason the UK has decided that being a Nanny state is great and that parents have no responsibility into the rearing of their children and teaching them what is right or wrong; thankfully the way this thing is being done is going against a lot of anti-censorship rules from the EU, which means it's only a matter of time until the UK wastes a ton of money in trying to explain itself to the ECJ.

I think it is a copout to say it's solely the job of parents to keep their kids safe and away from internet porn. The average age of the parents of a 12 year is in there 40s. There are plenty of 40 years who are pretty computer illiterate and most didn't grow up with the internet. It is bit much to expect them to supervise all the screen time for their kids who are digital natives.. Especially in the age of tablet and smartphones. But it is not too much to expect them keep their credit card information out of the hands of their 12 year sons, and carefully monitor their credit card statement.

I am sure that determined teenage UK boys will gain access to internet porn, but I do bet that requiring credit card info or other forms of age verification, will keep most kids from seeing hardcore porn.

 

[LaceyRoyce]

Not gonna get into it on here but I noticed reading that @RebeccaT you seem to feel maybe a little worried that your post made everyone argue with you. You mentioned that you were just the messenger. I think what people have been debating on here isn't so much just that you posted the information, but the opinions you shared along with them. I don't think anyones necessarily 'shooting the messenger' - just sharing their difffering opinions & healthy debate etc. I really appreciate threads like this cos I get to read all sides of it. Thanks for posting!

 

[Fatquack]

Not going to quote everybody.

First, I have never been asked for ID at a club or bar (I generally don't even carry my ID on me).

Second, there is a big difference between Europe and the USA when it comes to credit cards. It's a lot more work to get a charge reversed here. It's not just a phonecall, the one time I tried it I had to fill out a 6 page form.

Third, most Europeans do not have a credit card as you can not use it everywhere. In the Netherland in 2015 less than 1% of all purchases were done by credit card. So what are they going to use for verification?

Fourth, there is not a single scientific study that shows that pornography is harmful to minors. Here is a link to the report from Ofcom (the UK regulator) about it: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/research/radio-research/r18.pdf

 

[Mila_]

Third, most Europeans do not have a credit card as you can not use it everywhere. In the Netherland in 2015 less than 1% of all purchases were done by credit card. So what are they going to use for verification?

Debit cards work too. I am from Spain and everyone has a debit card.

Fourth, there is not a single scientific study that shows that pornography is harmful to minors. Here is a link to the report from Ofcom (the UK regulator) about it: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/research/radio-research/r18.pdf

There are so many biased and loaded "scientific" studies on almost every topic that what you have in them is faith, they prove nothing. You don't really need to be a rocket scientist to realize that letting kids watch porn will harm them. Think about it. Kids are not even supposed to watch movies with troubling non-sexual content such as love triangles or horror scenes. Do you really think an 8 year old is equipped to handle watching a pregnant woman naked and masturbating while she milks her tits? Because that is the most popular room in Chaturbate right now. Do you think a 12 year old will understand videos where a husband is forced to watch how 5 men fuck his hotwife? Cuckold is one of the most popular categories on porntubes. We aren't talking about nudity done in a tasteful way, we are talking about sites with names like Punishtube. Women dressed like girls being fucked by old men. Do you want your 13 year old daughter watching that? Come on.