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Man confesses to killing escort found not guilty

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Guys, really, read the article Jerry posted.

The much more plausible reason for the verdict is that the jury believed the defendant’s claim that he didn’t intend to shoot the victim. Per Texas’ homicide statute, the prosecution needed to prove that Gilbert “intentionally or knowingly” killed Frago or intended to cause her “serious bodily injury.” The defense argued that Gilbert lacked the requisite intent for murder because when he shot at the car as Frago and the owner of the escort service drove away, he was aiming for the tire. The bullet hit the tire and a fragment, “literally the size of your fingernail,” according to Defense Attorney Bobby Barrera, hit Frago. Barrera does not believe the jury acquitted because of the defense of property law. He believes they acquitted because they believed Gilbert didn’t mean to shoot her.

One would expect the jury to find that shooting at a car with an AK-47 is at least “reckless,” in which case he could have been convicted of manslaughter. But the prosecution didn’t charge him with manslaughter, only murder. Manslaughter is a “lesser included offense” of murder and the judge is entitled to instruct the jury if the evidence supports that charge, but it appears she did not. The jury can’t convict on a charge that isn’t before them.

So he shot at the car, and accidentally killed her with a stray bullet fragment. Manslaughter (when a deliberate action which is not intended to kill someone ends up killing them). Not murder (when an action that is intended to kill someone succeeds in killing them). The defense attorney used the theft law to try to get him acquitted entirely, but that doesn't mean that the jury agrees with the defense attorney's use of the law. And the defense attorney is legally required to use any laws which might possibly apply in the defense.
 
bawksy said:
To make an extreme example, let's say you're a security guard at the Louvre Museum, and some crazed lunatic with a knife runs straight at the Mona Lisa, intending to slash it to bits. Let's also say the only way to stop the lunatic before he does the deed is to shoot him. Would you fire? I would.
bawksy, bawksy, bawksy... come on now... the Mona Lisa (even being acclaimed as "the best known, the most visited, the most written about, the most sung about, the most parodied work of art in the world.") is still an inanimate object none the less. No one would receive the death penalty for destroying the Mona Lisa, therefore (IMHO anyways) using deadly force to protect it is just not justified. And even if the penalty for destroying the Mona Lisa was death, it still wouldn't be justified. It's a painting for Christ's sake, not a human life.
 
LadyLuna said:
So he shot at the car, and accidentally killed her with a stray bullet fragment. Manslaughter (when a deliberate action which is not intended to kill someone ends up killing them). Not murder (when an action that is intended to kill someone succeeds in killing them). The defense attorney used the theft law to try to get him acquitted entirely, but that doesn't mean that the jury agrees with the defense attorney's use of the law. And the defense attorney is legally required to use any laws which might possibly apply in the defense.
True, we can't fault the defense attorney for doing his job. I wouldn't expect anything less if we are to truly live in a free society, and hold true to the constitution.
Although, as for the jury, when you said "that doesn't mean that the jury agrees with the defense attorney's use of the law", I instantly thought about jury nullification.

A sanctioned doctrine of trial proceedings wherein members of a jury disregard either the evidence presented or the instructions of the judge in order to reach a verdict based upon their own consciences. It espouses the concept that jurors should be the judges of both law and fact.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/jury+nullification
 
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LadyLuna said:
So he shot at the car, and accidentally killed her with a stray bullet fragment. Manslaughter (when a deliberate action which is not intended to kill someone ends up killing them). Not murder (when an action that is intended to kill someone succeeds in killing them). The defense attorney used the theft law to try to get him acquitted entirely, but that doesn't mean that the jury agrees with the defense attorney's use of the law. And the defense attorney is legally required to use any laws which might possibly apply in the defense.

So if i get into a westling match in a store with someone over the last $150 towel rack that i need to finish my bathroom, i'm allowed to fire at their wallet to prevent them from paying for it, and if I accidentally kill them, that's ok?
 
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Dude shot at a car with an AK multiple times, around 30 times- correct? You don't get to use "I didn't know I could kill her" defense. You shoot at anything you accept the responsibility for the outcome.

What was he going to do if he had shot out the tire and she lived? Go collect his 150 dollars and wish her a good day? Now if you'll excuse me, I have some business executives that have robbed me out of 150 dollars after they sold me something that didn't do what I wanted after the date of purchase to shoot. I mean the tires that belong to the cars of said business executives.
 
So because the guy is a crap shot and can CLAIM that he was shooting at the tire he gets off? BS!!!!!! He can NOT prove that his intent wasn't killing the people inside that car that HE shot at. It's only his word. Stupid idiot jury probably felt she had it coming. Yes that sounds harsh and it was meant to be!!!!! No excuses, no loophole, not incorrectly charged, but rather just a stupid jury and judge in my opinion.
:angry4:
 
SweepTheLeg said:
Dude shot at a car with an AK multiple times, around 30 times- correct? You don't get to use "I didn't know I could kill her" defense. You shoot at anything you accept the responsibility for the outcome.

BINGO! I was typing my response when you were posting yours. I was trying to say the same thing and I totally agree with you. I see where the jury and judge MAY have used the "I shot at the tires" BS to let the guy off but I don't buy that crap for one second and neither should the legal system. Please!!!
:roll:
 
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And for the record I spent 6 months on our local grand jury last year. I saw way too much and have much less respect for our local justice system because of it. So yes, I have a bias now.
:(
 
I did read the article.
AND
I own an AK 74.
Not the same gun, but similar in strength.
I would never, in any situation, use that gun against someone who was not about to hurt me.

No one should ever shoot that type of gun (or any) at someone's car/body for any reason other than self defense.
Either way, he shot in the direction of, and killed, a woman.
He was not in any danger and should never have used a gun.

What he did was stupid, murderous, and had no respect for the life of another human being.

He should have AT LEAST gotten a manslaughter charge.
And he's still a pathetic and worthless person.
When you pick up a gun and fire it, you are responsible for what happens next.

And I do think her being an escort had something to do with both his actions and the ruling.
Lots of people in our country see escorts as less than human.
 
LadyLuna said:
Guys, really, read the article Jerry posted.

heheheh....i feel a little foolish....but it doesn't change my post, even tho the guy does sound more responsible than i'd given him credit for :)
 
SweepTheLeg said:
Dude shot at a car with an AK multiple times, around 30 times- correct? You don't get to use "I didn't know I could kill her" defense. You shoot at anything you accept the responsibility for the outcome.

Where did you get he shot 30 times? More assumptions?

He fired 2 rounds at the pimp's car tire, according to him, and the evidence shows that being a reasonable likelyhood.



He testified that as she left with her pimp, he confronted the couple.

“I said, 'I’d like my money back or we can call the police,'” Gilbert said. “He said, ‘If you want your money back, come and take it from me.’'

Gilbert said that as he turned to get his cell phone from his car to call police, the couple began to drive off. He said he fired two shots at their car from an assault rifle.

“I was trying to shoot the rear tires out on the vehicle so that I could stop them and call police and get everything squared away," he testified.

Frago was struck in the neck by a bullet fragment and was left paralyzed from the neck down. She died the following July from complications from her injuries.

I believe he should have been charged with manslaughter instead, but he certainly isn't the first person to get off on a technicality and surely won't be the last, unfortunately. The legal system once again failed and that law definitely needs to be re-written.

As far as giving thieves the right to steal whatever "inanimate" object they want without fear of being shot is going way too far. Thugs and thievery would be rampant and with prisons being abundantly overcrowded as it is, they would have little to no reason not to risk being caught. Law abiding citizens should have the right to protect their lives and property using any reasonable means necessary, including lethal force.

:twocents-02cents:
 

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Something I read, I try and do a little search and all I get is numerous repostings of the same story so fact and opinion can get blended. Him shooting twice with an AK-47 doesn't change anything in my mind. You don't get to shoot at something even once and get to use the "I didn't know someone could die" defense- well apparently you can.

What's the minimum amount that I can get away with for shooting someone when I don't get what I pay for?
 
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And now I'm reading he shot 4 times where the other two bullets went- who knows. So at least we have a crack shot walking around with an AK-47 out there.
 
Bocefish said:
As far as giving thieves the right to steal whatever "inanimate" object they want without fear of being shot is going way too far. Thugs and thievery would be rampant and with prisons being abundantly overcrowded as it is, they would have little to no reason not to risk being caught. Law abiding citizens should have the right to protect their lives and property using any reasonable means necessary, including lethal force.

:twocents-02cents:

Your prisons are full of US citizens who have no option because of your fucked legal system and government. Tough luck if you jump into someones backyard to get a frisbee and the owner shoots you because he thought you were going to steal something
 
Red7227 said:
Bocefish said:
As far as giving thieves the right to steal whatever "inanimate" object they want without fear of being shot is going way too far. Thugs and thievery would be rampant and with prisons being abundantly overcrowded as it is, they would have little to no reason not to risk being caught. Law abiding citizens should have the right to protect their lives and property using any reasonable means necessary, including lethal force.

:twocents-02cents:

Your prisons are full of US citizens who have no option because of your fucked legal system and government. Tough luck if you jump into someones backyard to get a frisbee and the owner shoots you because he thought you were going to steal something

How is our legal system fucked? That's a pretty broad statement without backing it up. It may not be perfect, but none are, and bad laws can be changed. Our prisons are full of criminals btw, and too many of them aren't US citizens. As far as government goes, they're all pretty much fucked up everywhere.
 
SweepTheLeg said:
And now I'm reading he shot 4 times where the other two bullets went- who knows. So at least we have a crack shot walking around with an AK-47 out there.

heh....i just said "more responsible"....i didn't say he'd crossed the threshold and was actually responsible :lol:
 
Bocefish said:
The pimp said he heard 4 shots

Not having read any thing about this story outside this forum, all I can think is, I sure hope the pimp made his statement from behind bars.
 
Life is a lot more complicated than that. For one thing, we don't know that he was her pimp. A lot of escorts have drivers who are not their "pimps". A lot of prostitutes feel safer having an associate nearby when they are working, because johns can get violent.

In fact, there is a case before the Supreme Court of Canada brought on behalf of prostitutes who want the law against, among other things, "living off the avails of prostitution", which makes it illegal for them to pay drivers. They are also arguing that brothels and soliciting should be made legal, as prostitution already is in Canada.

Further reading.

A lot of prostitutes, like camgirls, are strong enough and empowered enough to think that they should have the final say in how they use their bodies, and think that they should be able to perform sex work in safety if they choose to. There are separate laws against rape, coercion, white-slavery, exploitation of minors which can and should be enforced, without confusing them with the issue of allowing sex-workers to make a living as they see fit, with the same types of legal protections afforded every other worker.
 
Sevrin said:
Life is a lot more complicated than that. For one thing, we don't know that he was her pimp.

Yes we do. He was her pimp and stood about 6'4" and 250 plus pounds. There were several prior instances of them doing this to other johns according to some reports.

SAN ANTONIO -
He said he preferred to be considered “in management" -- not a pimp -- but Christopher Perkins admitted he ran an escort service.

He said that at about 3 a.m. on Christmas Eve 2009, he dropped Lenora Frago, 23, off at a North Side apartment complex.

He said he had arranged a visit for Frago at the apartment of Ezekiel Gilbert, 30, who agreed to pay $150 for a half-hour visit with Frago.

Perkins was the state’s first witness in Gilbert’s murder trial Friday in Judge Mary Roman’s 175th District Court.

He said that when Frago’s half-hour visit was over, Gilbert came out of the apartment and appeared angry.

“I informed him that he had paid for her time and that’s what he got,” Perkins testified.

He said Gilbert complained that he did not get the services he wanted. He said Gilbert indicated that he wanted sex.

Perkins said that as he and Frago drove away, he heard Frago say, “'He’s got a gun – go, go!'”

“Then I heard four shots and quickly sped away,” Perkins said.

He said he asked Frago if she was all right and she did not answer so he stopped to check on her.

“I asked her, ‘Can you talk?’ and she didn’t say anything,” Perkins said.

“I said, 'If you’re hurt, blink,'” he said he asked Frago. “She blinked.”

Frago had been shot at the base of her skull and was paralyzed from the neck down.

She died from her injuries the following July and Gilbert was charged with murder.

http://www.ksat.com/news/pimp-testifies ... index.html
 
So he paid for her time and that's what he got- maybe a private lap dance or a shower show or things of that nature who knows. Did her advertisement ever mention sex is going to happen, or did he just assume because of her job title that sex was a foregone conclusion? If I meet a cam girl should I assume that she wanted to meet for sex because her job title is in the adult industry and then demand all my money back when I don't get what I want?
 
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SweepTheLeg said:
So he paid for her time and that's what he got- maybe a private lap dance or a shower show or things of that nature who knows. Did her advertisement ever mention sex is going to happen, or did he just assume because of her job title that sex was a foregone conclusion? If I meet a cam girl should I assume that she wanted to meet for sex because her job title is in the adult industry and then demand all my money back when I don't get what I want?

$150 to chat with her in person for 30 minutes? :lol:

He testified that he called the escort service and asked Frago explicit questions prior to agreeing to pay her $150 for a visit to his apartment.

“'Are we going to be intimate?'” he said he asked. “'Are we going to have sex?' She said, ‘Yes, I’ll handle that.'”

But Gilbert testified that she left his apartment following a 20-minute visit without having sex with him.

http://www.ksat.com/news/accused-call-g ... index.html
 
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SweepTheLeg said:
He said that's what happened while the other dude said all he paid for was her time.

Of course he did. :lol: Apparently you think the pimp would be stupid enough to admit to running a prostitution ring. That's why they're called escorts instead of prostitutes because prostitution is illegal.
 
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Bocefish said:
$150 to chat with her in person for 30 minutes? :lol:

$150 is an outrageous amount to you?

/shrug

That's what a regular private runs on MFC. No touching is involved there either. I've spent more than $150 dollars at a time on models I just chatted with, and so have a lot of pervs.
 
Theft of services STILL does not give one the right to take a life. The dude wasn't robbed at gun point and there was no threat of injury here. Asshole shot at the car then asshole should pay the price. Wrong person paid here no matter what else.
:(
 
Sevrin said:
Bocefish said:
$150 to chat with her in person for 30 minutes? :lol:

$150 is an outrageous amount to you?

/shrug

That's what a regular private runs on MFC. No touching is involved there either. I've spent more than $150 dollars at a time on models I just chatted with, and so have a lot of pervs.

So did you take a few pot shots at your computer screen after?
:?
 
Sevrin said:
Bocefish said:
$150 to chat with her in person for 30 minutes? :lol:

$150 is an outrageous amount to you?

Spending $150 to chat with a complete stranger from an escort service on Craigslist for 30 minutes? Ya right. I know some guys do that with their regular girls, but that's obviously not the case here, not even close.
 
JerryBoBerry said:
Kind of figured the first report of this case was sensational bullshit. Just didn't sound right. So I've been waiting for someone to either release transcripts of the case or at least give better details of the case. I'm thinking this sounds more realistic.

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2...-can-shoot-an-escort-who-refuses-to-have-sex/
I have discovered another danger that does not relate directly to the case but rather to how it has developed as a discussion here. I too thought, while reading the short blurb linked in the OP, there has to be something more. I thought of trying to see what I could find, but I thought, that's a pain in the ass, and if there is more someone else, probably Jerrybb, will bring it to light. Since reacting to the thread was much more fun than trying to hunt for more, that is what I did.

Catching up today I got to Jerry's post, and I was struct with the idea that the reason I did not search for the real facts, or what I thought must be more facts, something that made this make a little better sense, was because I was relying on someone else to do that for me, and since Jerry has been so consistent as a forum member who finds the missing pieces, I knew he would find it even if no one else did.

That is danger #1: We all understand that with the internet wide open, where anyone who has access to consuming it, also can contribute to it, that there is a lot of bullshit and that some of that BS can be presented in such a way that it gets passed along as credible info. (Or as here, that there were no lies, but rather omissions of relevant facts, and facts interject that may not be relevant at all, in what seems to be an effort to lead.) We all also know that because almost every fact of any current event there is, has been added, or will be added to the internet, we know the truth is out there. The danger is, that because we know the info, the truthful info, the whole story, all the fact, are out there, and because it is a pain in the ass to search for stuff (partly because there is so much BS to search through), and we take for granted someone like Jerry will find the real story if need be, - That we stop looking for the truth ourselves.

The second concern I have that this thread has provided an example or two, and is something that has been happening long before electronic media, but I fear is getting more pervasive : Is this tendency to want to entertain ourselves, and when the facts turn out to be less entertaining than the other we ignore the facts and continue to behave as if the more entertaining BS is what's Real.

Before we had the internet there were lots of fictional stories that contained lots of facts and omissions of facts, to lend the appearance of real shit, but they were separate and had stages like the Star, Enquirer, and other such trash media. People could read them for entertainment, and some no doubt think they are news that no one else will print, because of area 51, or something, but those stories were not mixed in with all the other stuff. Now a lot of the time the first credible, or what appears to be credible thing we read, is not factual, or incomplete, and I think looking at the real facts that are not so exciting after we have invested our emotions into something else, can be a real let down. IDK just makes sense to me.
 
I agree, that he should have been sentenced to manslaughter. But manslaughter wasn't one of the charges being brought, and the jury can't say guilty to manslaughter if it's not there. And I would never convict someone of murder if it was just manslaughter.

And no, the defense isn't "I didn't know it could kill her." The defense is "I shot at the tire, not at her." The bit that killed her was a fragment that was the size of a fingernail. It's not a case of the bullet ricocheting in a weird way, it was a small fragment that hit her. And honestly, can you really blame someone for not knowing exactly how a bullet is going to fragment and where all that shrapnel will go?

As for the law, it does specify at night. If you're playing frizbee at night, I'm sure you're using a frizbee that shows up rather well at night, one of the neon glowy ones? Thus, the neighbor will clearly see the frizbee, and will know that it's just a frizbee game, no shooting will happen.
 
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