Is chivalry sexism?

[ZenHedonist]

I just read an interesting article on formal manners a gentleman should have. The usual list of hold the door, hold her chair, help her with her coat, sleep in the wet spot...erhm, no that wasn't one...walk on the street side, offer her your coat if she's cold, etc, etc...

Many are common manners we should all show each other or manners of respect and deference you kids need to show to us older folks, dammit...but I digress...

It wasn't the article that got me to thinking but the comments. Many people felt that formal manners shown by a man to a woman are by their nature sexist. Are they? Even if they are, do women still want formal manners from a man?

 

[AmberCutie]

No. Chivalry is wonderful and should be celebrated.

 

[JessieWolfe]

I think everyone should treat everyone this way regardless of their sex. It's just called being a decent human lol

I open my mans door for him sometimes. I push his chairs in when we leave restaurants because he forgets. I have shared a pair of gloves back and fourth with him on a spontaneous winter hike. I feel like if he does fancy things for me, I should probably do them back. It feels nice to be treated that way whether you are a boy or girl.

So I don't think it is sexism lol
Just common manners

 

[ZenHedonist]

Let me add this to the discussion: How about if it is a first date or someone you just met at a social function?

 

[Felicity]

Let me add this to the discussion: How about if it is a first date or someone you just met at a social function?

Manners are part of a first impression. If a guy isn't at least opening doors for me then I don't think he likes putting too much effort into anything least of all a 1st date.

If chivalry is wrong, then I don't want to be right!

 

[MayaEden]

I think it's inherently sexist yes, because the whole concept of it is meant to do "things" for a woman, because she's a woman. I don't think the actions themselves are sexist, just the context and intention behind it. Personally I wouldn't like someone going out of their way to do something merely "because chivalry", I'd feel like I don't deserve it just because of my vagina and the dude doesn't deserve the expectation just because he has a penis. Treating me as an equal person and following their own ethics, is definitely more preferable to me than adhering to a long standing and widely accepted social phenomena. I've thought about this since I was a kid and it never really made sense to me, I thought it was unfair to the dudes and dudettes (the "role assignment" and expectations). Why not just adhere to general kindness and understanding for everyone, instead of a male-only "etiquette" for social interactions with females?

 

[dilligaf0]

I call those actions "common courtesy" and do them on a regular basis.
I open doors for those I think need help, regardless of sex.
If I date someone who is upset by me being courteous to them, I don't want to date them anyway.

:whistle:

 

[eclipse76]

Yes, it's perpetuating shitty gender roles that teach boys their job is to protect women and teach girls they are weak and can't stand up for themselves.
Be nice to anyone regardless of their gender.

 

[Worship Jaclyn]

I have never met someone who was very chivalrous toward women but also a dick to members of their own sex. In that case I could see the point in it being sexist as obviously that person doesn't have manners. I think for the most part it is just people having manners and certain manners are taught to boys in regards to treating a lady.

I'm a cliche hippie feminist Mom and I would be extremely depressed if I had a son who didn't open a car door for someone :?

 

[eyeteach]

If you have the gall to ask me if I held a door for you simply because you're a lady, then you should fully expect me to say, "No, I held the door because I'm a gentlemen." I actually had a woman ask me this once. If good manners bothers you that much then please come no where near me.

 

[ZenHedonist]

Good point. I have good manners, ergo I am a Gentleman. Although I'm not sure in most circumstances I'd help another man with their chair but I would a lady in most all cases. I hold the door for others and say thank you when it is held for me.

Speaking of holding a door, please do so from the outside and not reaching through from the inside. That's just being in the way. Kthx...

 

[AlanaTaylor]

I like it if a guy does the typical holding doors open etc but I would do the same back. Its literally just manners! I'm not going to leave a chair untucked (mainly because I can't stand to see it) so if my partner leaves it, I will put it in for him. He holds doors open for me or other people and I do the same, especially for people with buggies etc.

Manners bb :icon-wink: the way to any person's heart!

 

[Zoomer]

I was observing a discussion which was similar - although that one centred started off with joggers/runners getting annoyed that a woman with kids didn't get out of their way when jogging and so had a go at her over it.

I shit you not.

Several posters were of the same type (people should move out of the runners way) which I personally found utterly shocking. Those that had manners and moved out of the way (I mean people with kids may struggle to keep them under control, and kids motor neurone functions aren't perfect and nor is their ability to predict outcome of actions or have forward thinking - so purely form a well-being perspective you should move out of their way) were accused of being sexist dinosaurs.

I found it baffling. There was no sexism on show, just some people with an enormous amount of pomposity over their own self importance and how people should move out their way. They even had the temerity to suggest that men would only move out of the way because they wished to appear more attractive to the ladies.

Again, I shit you not.

It isn't sexist, it's manners. I think someone asked whether it was city dwellers who had this opinion people should move out of their way. I don't think there was an answer, but I would not be surprised as only in a do I meet folk who are hugely rude, obnoxious and arrogant (such as not waiting for people to disembark from trains/buses before forcing their way on, never giving up a seat etc).

The 'sexism' claims are by those trying to justify their own rudeness and lack of empathy or consideration for others - at least in my opinion anyway.

 

[SaffronBurke]

I don't mind someone holding a door, that's just politeness. But, one chivalry article that I saw once mentioned that gentlemen should drop the lady off at the door and go park, and also go get the car rather than making her walk out to it.

I hate when people do that. Now I'm standing in the entryway like a goober waiting for you to catch up, or come back with the car, when there was literally no reason that I couldn't just make the walk with you. Friends and family do this all the time to me, and it drives me batty.

 

[Bocefish]

I just view it as common courtesy. I'll hold the door for a guy or a girl. I don't hold my girl's chair while she sits down at restaurants or things like that unless she's wearing a special gown or sometimes on first dates. I'll also open car doors for her and ask if she'd like to be dropped by the door if she's in classy high heels while I park for special events... basic courtesy, aka good manners.

 

[DeezNA]

Despite being a romantic to the bone, I'm on the manners train all the way with this.

I was raised to always show manners and be respectful. As time has passed, many of my family members have... devolved from this mentality... while mine has evolved to "respect those who deserve respect". This plays into my innate ability to read body language and my deep study of differing world cultures.

When we talk about chivalry, I find it interesting that it's put in the perspective of just men interacting with women... What if a gay man took a woman out to dinner, is it expected that he not hold doors or be polite simply because he's not sexually attracted to her? If he was out on a date with someone he was sexually interested in, would he behave differently? Inherently, I would say yes. People like to show all their good sides on first impressions, manners and selflessness are a huge gesture and a very big part of that and many people pull out all the stops for a first date that could potentially turn into a sexual/romantic relationship.

Back to studying world cultures, I have many traits ingrained in my motions of respect and how I present myself from years of studying the origins of these rituals. Bowing/nodding your head to someone in acknowledgement or greeting, for instance; a very simple, almost subconscious gesture. The roots of this gesture is that bowing your head is a sign of submission, where the ever-present inverse of this (tipping your head up in a sort of "sup" gesture) is more of a natural symbol of dominance. The more aggressive form can also be interpreted as an expression of equality when met with the same gesture in return, but typically I have almost exclusively observed this between males. I almost always bow my head unless someone's body language is giving me a very arrogant vibe or I know them quite well.

Even the simple gestures of waving and shaking hands originated from the expression of being unarmed and not carrying a weapon. It has obviously evolved since this, but the root always holds strong and innately resonates a sense of comfort when received.

When eating, I will never touch my food before everyone has their food and, in the case of there being a host, will never eat before the host. Several cultures actually have this inverted, which is interesting to me, but for me it doesn't feel right.


In the end, chivalry is expressing manners, but I have to reiterate my question again: would these chivalrous actions be considered sexist if it were a same-sex date? Would they be expected? I think this, in itself, would answer the question.

 

[Ambers Troll]

For the most part it is probably sexism, but also good manners.
Women do have alot of extras to contend with, such as heels, dresses, and so on. Most of these chivalry acts are to protect those, and appropriate in this sense. If as a man you want women to wear such things, it becomes more appropriate to play your part in being considerate of some of the challenges involved in such things.

 

[AmberCutie]

Aside from the fact that manners are wonderful, I enjoy being treated like a princess. I'm glad I'm a girl and that typical chivalry suits my desire to be threaded as such. I appreciate that manners allow us to do these polite things for anyone, but if someone thinks that it's bad for a man to treat a woman this way because she's a woman irks me. This is one of the few antifeminism bones that I have to pick with that movement.

 

[Alice_Biscuit]

I am a feminist, but I would very much appreciate a man I care about doing these things for me. That's because he wouldn't be doing it for me just because I'm a woman, he's doing it because I'm someone he treasures and respects. Women can spend a lot of time making themselves pretty for dates, buying pretty dresses, shoes and makeup- so for a man to show that he appreciates that effort is part of a balance of effort on both sides. The day I can spend as little time as the average man does getting ready for a date is the day I won't care about gestures like these. :twocents-02cents:

 

[SexySteph]

The act of doing these things isn't necessarily sexist but the idea behind them is. Do I like when someone opens doors for me? You betcha. But if I go out on a few dates with someone and they open doors for me but not a man that's behind us, there won't be anymore dates because he's clearly doing it for me because I'm a woman instead of doing it because I'm just another person.

Likewise I open doors for people that are walking behind me, no matter their gender, but I've had guys act very weird about it because "I can't have a woman holding the door for me, what kind of man would I be! I'll get that." that's bizarre to me and his manners are DEFINITELY based in sexism.

I'm totally A-OK with good manners but I was taught as a kid that "You let boys open doors for you because you're a delicate flower." And I think that's definitely benevolent sexism. We should instead just be teaching kids "You hold doors for people cuz it's the nice thing to do. If you're the one driving and it's raining, drop everyone else off at the door/go run get the car. Treat others how you'd like to be treated without any concern for their genitals."

 

[zippypinhead]

The act of doing these things isn't necessarily sexist but the idea behind them is. Do I like when someone opens doors for me? You betcha. But if I go out on a few dates with someone and they open doors for me but not a man that's behind us, there won't be anymore dates because he's clearly doing it for me because I'm a woman instead of doing it because I'm just another person.

Seems like a pretty extreme reason to stop dating a person, especially since it's based upon a far-flung assumption. For example, he could be holding the door for you and nobody else because you're the only person he sees.

 

[DuoShi]

I'm usually not a very polite person, and I don't have great manners. So, I'm especially annoyed when I go out of the way to show chivalry/manners/whatever, and people call me sexist or down-play what I did.

 

[SexySteph]

The act of doing these things isn't necessarily sexist but the idea behind them is. Do I like when someone opens doors for me? You betcha. But if I go out on a few dates with someone and they open doors for me but not a man that's behind us, there won't be anymore dates because he's clearly doing it for me because I'm a woman instead of doing it because I'm just another person.

Seems like a pretty extreme reason to stop dating a person, especially since it's based upon a far-flung assumption. For example, he could be holding the door for you and nobody else because you're the only person he sees.

If he's letting doors slam in somebody's face he's probably not worth my time...

 

[PunkInDrublic]

he's clearly doing it for me because I'm a woman instead of doing it because I'm just another person.

based upon a far-flung assumption.

Yeah He could be doing it for you because he likes you and wants to treat you well/be respectful. I don't think this is a good example of a guy helping a woman because he thinks they are weak and pathetic.

 

[SexySteph]

he's clearly doing it for me because I'm a woman instead of doing it because I'm just another person.

based upon a far-flung assumption.

Yeah He could be doing it for you because he likes you and wants to treat you well/be respectful. I don't think this is a good example of a guy helping a woman because he thinks they are weak and pathetic.

But he's not respecting other people? Idk, if I hold the door for someone and see someone else on their way to the door I continue holding it for the next person. It's pretty hard to miss someone behind you once you're already holding the door. Seeing someone coming and then continuing to let the door close in their face because they're not the person you're trying to sleep with seems pretty rude to me and not an attractive quality in a human.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

But he's not respecting other people? Idk, if I hold the door for someone and see someone else on their way to the door I continue holding it for the next person. It's pretty hard to miss someone behind you once you're already holding the door. Seeing someone coming and then continuing to let the door close in their face because they're not the person you're trying to sleep with seems pretty rude to me and not an attractive quality in a human.

huh? Got weird kinda quick, now the dude is letting the door close in someones face because they aren't the person he's trying to sleep with? lmao nevermind

 

[mynameisbob84]

Yes and no. Mainly no, I think. The psychology behind it is a product of the sexism and gender roles that are ingrained in society, and taught to us from an early age but the act itself is just good manners. Boys are taught growing up to be assertive, to be pro-active, to hold doors open for girls and to pull out their chair, to make the first move, to find a girl they like, discard the ones they don't, make that girl their wife, knock her up and spend the rest of their life financially supporting them. Girls meanwhile are taught to be submissive, to wait for doors to be opened for them before walking through them, to be pure and chaste until selected by the man they'll spend the rest of their life with, to let them make the first move and follow their lead, and spend the rest of their life being cared for by them.

Gender roles are sucky for a whole host of reasons and the notion that men should do x and women should do y (even if it's something as innocuous as a man holding a door open for a women to walk through) is problematic. That said, when I hold a door open for a woman, I'm not doing it in a conscious bid to propagate gender roles and undermine female agency, I'm doing it because it's more polite and considerate than not doing it. I think it would be a shame to have to stop doing things like that just in order to avoid suspicion of being a misogynist poo-head.

 

[KylieJacobs]

Opening doors = Opening car doors on the first couple dates is fine (or special occasions maybe), but anything more than that is a bit weird in my opinion. Opening doors to buildings though, I love anywhere and anytime!...Well, until I heard it was so guys can look at your ass. :lol:

Offering your coat if she's cold = Love it!

Sleeping in the wet spot = Definitely! (I usually offer a towel though because I feel bad)

Helping with her coat = I don't think it could hurt.

Holding her chair = I think it's respectful, especially at fancier restaurants.

Walking on the street side = It makes me feel like the guy is protecting me (in a good way).

Lending your arm while walking = I think is a must for me especially when I wear high heels and there is stairs involved.

edit- In other words, the answer is no.

 

[WickedTouch]

Offering your coat if she's cold = Love it!

Sleeping in the wet spot = Definitely! (I usually offer a towel though because I feel bad)

Helping with her coat = I don't think it could hurt.

Holding her chair = I think it's respectful, especially at fancier restaurants.

Walking on the street side = It makes me feel like the guy is protecting me (in a good way).

Lending your arm while walking = I think is a must for me especially when I wear high heels and there is stairs involved.

Yeah... I would do all of these as I regard it to be being polite and good mannered, not sexist in any way.

As far as the door opening scenario goes... if someone is walking directly behind me, no matter if its a man, woman, old person or young, I would hold the door open for them as I regard it to be basic politeness to do so. Letting it just swing back in someone's face is wrong... it's just plain rude!!

 

[Rose]

I think everyone should do this for others, regardless of gender. I do it. It's a regular habit. My kid can barely reach the door handles but when the opportunity arises, I let him hold doors for people. Holding doors open, pushing chairs in/pulling them out, etc, that's just good manners. It's polite and you never know when someone could use that extra smile or hand.

There were more times than I could count when Spawn was tiny and I was out somewhere alone, juggling him and whatever else I was holding when people would, literally, let a door slam in my face or would go out of their way to cut in front of me in line. Because of self entitled assholes like that who think the world revolves around them, more people should practice good manners in public. We all have our own crap going on, but it doesn't take any effort at all to just hold that door open for an extra few seconds.