How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible?

[CutieSnugler]

So I have been a user of MFC now for about 3 months, some of you might have seen me around as CutieSnugler, Anonymo0se, or JelosOfStuffy and I've had mostly positive experiences. However, I find myself getting caught up in ethical questions I am trying to untangle like:

"Is it ethical to patron a model for services if they work for a studio?"
"Is it ethical to pay for services when a model is drunk?"
"Is it ethical to use MFC as a whole?"

So starting by laying out my thoughts and conclusions on MFC. I go to MFC basically because I am a lonely pervert who loves beautiful women and it's a place where I can presumably make an exchange with other perverts, or at least consenting adults, of pervy services for money. I don't see anything ethically wrong with this so long as the check "consenting adults" holds. I'm sure it does for most (or hopefully all) of the cases in which I have used MFC. MFC provides a platform for this exchange and takes a cut, so does this create the same concern as pimping does? A model may be dependent on that platform and thus manipulated by it by having their cut unpredictably impacted. It doesn't appear to be the case with MFC as the models know to predict that MFC takes a 50% cut and they agree to that upfront and can depend on it, also if there was an unfair manipulation of the cut then models have plenty of competing camsites to choose from. So I've been able to put myself at ease that there is no ethical problem with using MFC as a platform but it doesn't seem as clear cut in the case of studios. Story time:

A few weeks into using MFC I decided to start browsing some of the smaller rooms and I found a beautiful girl I liked that spoke English well enough to communicate. We talked for a few minutes and I tipped in public for a few things before taking her private, she seemed to be enjoying herself which is very important to me. I left very happy and added her to my friends list for future reference. Skip forward a week and I decide to go back and visit again but this time the experience is way different. I come in and she is curled up on the bed. When she sits up her eyes are puffy and her nose is running and she is trying to force a smile. It's obvious she's in deep discomfort so I ask her why she is there if she is so sick. I say she should take some time and recover but she basically says that she is there 8 hours a day 6 days a week, that's her schedule and doesn't seem to feel like she can take the time off. I wished her well and have not gone back since, and I will not go back. This was the first experience that made me think of the studio situation.

As you browse down the model list to the less busy rooms you often find girls from poorer countries working for studios. These studios can provide rooms and caming equipment and translation services for the models for an additional cut of the income. That sounds fair at face value but in this case they obviously have a lot larger of a coercive influence on the models. They control their rooms, working hours, what they have to agree to etc.. at a minimum, and the checks get sent to the studios and then get dispersed to the models. There is no way to know if the model is truly consenting or if they are even getting a cut at all. They could be being trafficked for all I know and I don't want to be a part of that, so I have made it a policy to not knowingly work with models that use studios. It's not always easy to figure this out, I just have to make a judgement call. Most models seem OK with telling you they are using a studio but some will tell you they aren't when they obviously are and some will get upset with you when you leave after finding out they do. I feel like I have solid ethical ground to stand on for this conclusion but I don't feel like this issue is fully resolved. I don't know proportionally how much trafficking goes on at this camsite or how realistic my assumptions of third world studios are, but I feel like without more information, it's too ethically risky.

Then there are things I am not sure about somewhere in the middle, like the case of the camgirl I occasionally visit that happens to be very drunk on a particular night that I show up. The signs are there, she is heavily slurring her words and slipping in and out of saying incomprehensible things, seems to be having minor balance issues. She is an independent contractor and she is not doing things she wouldn't normally do other than being very drunk. I end up just asking her if she's OK, understandably that wasn't productive. I am after all basically an internet stranger to her. Then I wish her well and tell her I'll be back when she's sober. I don't know if this has any ethical merit at all. My assumption when I made that call was that somebody has to be able to rationally consent at the moment services are rendered, it's not enough to know that somebody would consent if they were in a clearer mindset. However, this could have been just part of what this model was doing that day. This could have been more fun for her, getting drunk and lowering her inhibitions.In which case is that forethought enough to constitute consent? What if I as a good tipper actually negatively impacted her night or her room by leaving for some falsely virtuous reason. I guess better safe than sorry on issues of consent.

Those are some of the ethical issues I've run into on MFC so far and I'd love to hear about any additional ethical situations you may have been in, or opinion on my actions or thoughts on these issues. I have a thick skin too so just be as blunt as possible with any criticisms. I brought this up in Lounge1000 and got such insightful comments as "pussy is pussy" and "Are you a fag?" understandable since I'm making people think while they are trying to fap, maybe this will be a better place.

 

[GweenBlack]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

I brought this up in Lounge1000 and got such insightful comments as "pussy is pussy" and "Are you a fag?" understandable since I'm making people think while they are trying to fap, maybe this will be a better place.

Oh the Lounge :lol:

I don't have anything to add, what is ethical for some is not for others, i would recommend you reading this AMA from a romanian model on Reddit

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2 ... studio_in/

she gives a insight of how it is inside the studio, some like "backstage" view of it, it may be interesting for you to have a look at this

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

I'm sure it does for most (or hopefully all) of the cases in which I have used MFC. MFC provides a platform for this exchange and takes a cut, so does this create the same concern as pimping does? A model may be dependent on that platform and thus manipulated by it by having their cut unpredictably impacted. It doesn't appear to be the case with MFC as the models know to predict that MFC takes a 50% cut and they agree to that upfront and can depend on it, also if there was an unfair manipulation of the cut then models have plenty of competing camsites to choose from.

Don't think of it that way. MFC doesn't take a cut. The models haven't agreed to 50% either. When you tip a model a token they get a nickel, 100% of that nickel. The extra amount you had to spend to get that token you are paying MFC to pay the bills. They aren't pimps, they do have bills to pay. Try imagining the amount of bandwidth required to stream 1500 live video streams to upwards of 40,000 people at any given time 24 hours a day. That doesn't come free. The difference is their cost of doing business and to provide infrastructure for ladies to work in the first place.

 

[Ann_Sulu]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

"Is it ethical to patron a model for services if they work for a studio?"
"Is it ethical to pay for services when a model is drunk?"
"Is it ethical to use MFC as a whole?"

The first two are kinda more up to you I think than the model. Some won't even go to rooms they know are studios, since studios tend to get a bad rap. If a model is drunk, she's choosing to be so, I'm not sure how it would be unethical for you. I mean if she can't hold her drink, then it's more her ethics as to whether she should be that way not yours.

The last...I would need you to clarify this a bit to reply better. Now this is coming from myself a cam model, so I suppose you might assume I have an agenda, but I really can't think of why the site would be unethical to use. I mean as long as you don't use it if you feel you'll perhaps get a I don't know, some sort of unhealthy crush or spending habits you can't handle...I think it's fine as long as no one's tipping more than they can afford, and no one loses loved ones (again how you handle things in your own life, but MFC & it's models aren't controlling you here)

So starting by laying out my thoughts and conclusions on MFC. I go to MFC basically because I am a lonely pervert who loves beautiful women and it's a place where I can presumably make an exchange with other perverts, or at least consenting adults, of pervy services for money. I don't see anything ethically wrong with this so long as the check "consenting adults" holds. I'm sure it does for most (or hopefully all) of the cases in which I have used MFC.

Perfectly fine by me. Most members are like this, and seem to see it this way from what I've seen.

Camsites provide a platform for this exchange and takes a cut, so does this create the same concern as pimping does?


A model may be dependent on that platform and thus manipulated by it by having their cut unpredictably impacted. It doesn't appear to be the case with MFC as the models know to predict that MFC takes a 50% cut and they agree to that upfront and can depend on it, also if there was an unfair manipulation of the cut then models have plenty of competing camsites to choose from. So I've been able to put myself at ease that there is no ethical problem with using MFC as a platform but it doesn't seem as clear cut in the case of studios.

Only if we can also assume advertisements on billboards are also essentially pimping businesses.

Story time:

A few weeks into using MFC I decided to start browsing some of the smaller rooms and I found a beautiful girl I liked that spoke English well enough to communicate. We talked for a few minutes and I tipped in public for a few things before taking her private, she seemed to be enjoying herself which is very important to me. I left very happy and added her to my friends list for future reference. Skip forward a week and I decide to go back and visit again but this time the experience is way different. I come in and she is curled up on the bed. When she sits up her eyes are puffy and her nose is running and she is trying to force a smile. It's obvious she's in deep discomfort so I ask her why she is there if she is so sick. I say she should take some time and recover but she basically says that she is there 8 hours a day 6 days a week, that's her schedule and doesn't seem to feel like she can take the time off. I wished her well and have not gone back since, and I will not go back. This was the first experience that made me think of the studio situation.

One thing about camming is it IS a tip based system not per hour. MFC states in their wiki that you shouldn't simply think of camming as a full income. On top of that MFC is a VERY competitive site (note camscore and the ranks). Many models and members don't really realize how much effort goes into it. I used to work on that site, but after two and a half years switched. Less competition, does make it a lot less stressful. Also, for a long time now I've had a part-time job (again camming shouldn't be done fulltime until you KNOW you can financially swing it).

As you browse down the model list to the less busy rooms you often find girls from poorer countries working for studios. These studios can provide rooms and caming equipment and translation services for the models for an additional cut of the income. That sounds fair at face value but in this case they obviously have a lot larger of a coercive influence on the models. They control their rooms, working hours, what they have to agree to etc.. at a minimum, and the checks get sent to the studios and then get dispersed to the models. There is no way to know if the model is truly consenting or if they are even getting a cut at all. They could be being trafficked for all I know and I don't want to be a part of that, so I have made it a policy to not knowingly work with models that use studios. It's not always easy to figure this out, I just have to make a judgement call. Most models seem OK with telling you they are using a studio but some will tell you they aren't when they obviously are and some will get upset with you when you leave after finding out they do. I feel like I have solid ethical ground to stand on for this conclusion but I don't feel like this issue is fully resolved. I don't know proportionally how much trafficking goes on at this camsite or how realistic my assumptions of third world studios are, but I feel like without more information, it's too ethically risky.

Studios often have a set amount of hours models HAVE to work as well, or they'll have a minimum they have to earn. Again not everyone likes to visit studios, and those tend to be the main reasons.

Then there are things I am not sure about somewhere in the middle, like the case of the camgirl I occasionally visit that happens to be very drunk on a particular night that I show up. The signs are there, she is heavily slurring her words and slipping in and out of saying incomprehensible things, seems to be having minor balance issues. She is an independent contractor and she is not doing things she wouldn't normally do other than being very drunk. I end up just asking her if she's OK, understandably that wasn't productive. I am after all basically an internet stranger to her. Then I wish her well and tell her I'll be back when she's sober. I don't know if this has any ethical merit at all. My assumption when I made that call was that somebody has to be able to rationally consent at the moment services are rendered, it's not enough to know that somebody would consent if they were in a clearer mindset. However, this could have been just part of what this model was doing that day. This could have been more fun for her, getting drunk and lowering her inhibitions.In which case is that forethought enough to constitute consent? What if I as a good tipper actually negatively impacted her night or her room by leaving for some falsely virtuous reason. I guess better safe than sorry on issues of consent.

Those are some of the ethical issues I've run into on MFC so far and I'd love to hear about any additional ethical situations you may have been in, or opinion on my actions or thoughts on these issues. I have a thick skin too so just be as blunt as possible with any criticisms. I brought this up in Lounge1000 and got such insightful comments as "pussy is pussy" and "Are you a fag?" understandable since I'm making people think while they are trying to fap, maybe this will be a better place.

If you feel uncomfortable in her room, then it's probably best to not be in there. It does sound like she has a dependency problem. I would think of that more though as anyone you would meet that perhaps you'd like to hang out with, but sadly has an addiction. She could have one for many reasons. Some need it to be more social, some may have had the problem before camming, maybe problems with a relationship I don't know...there are many reasons why people drink. I'd advise trying to find and stick with cammers that make you feel more comfortable being there, and if you still feel uneasy maybe camsites just aren't for you.

 

[Gen]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Re: MFC as a pimp, pimping involves a lot more than simply profiting off someone's sex work. Unlike a pimp, MFC doesn't force us to cam or abuse us, and we are free to leave at any time. MFC is like Etsy for boobs, there's more similarities there than to pimping.

But I agree with Ann, stick to rooms where you aren't worried about their consent. I don't like watching drunk models for the same reason and am not comfortable with it, but it's pretty easy to skip and either come back when they're sober or find other models. I don't think you ever should worry about it being a falsely virtuous reason, if you're not into it, then you're not into it whether it's because what she's doing makes you feel unethical or if her show that night isn't your style or whatever. Overall my point is, watching cams should make you happy, if the room is making you worry about ethics, time for a new room!

 

[mynameisbob84]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

I dare say you may be overthinking things, sir. Models camming against their will, while it obviously happens, doesn't seem at all prevalent on MFC. If you're worried, just avoid studio models. Studio models are very easy to spot as every studio in existence seemingly hired the same interior decorator.

And like Gen said, if drunk models make you feel uneasy, just avoid them. Plenty of sober models around at any one time.

 

[JimsX]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

I have had many arguments with myself regarding studio models. On the one hand I do not want to support or further models working in them because they have no choice and/or no money for their own computer and webcam. I actually feel bad/sad when I see the same lady camming for 9, 10, or more hours and making 200 tokens. I finally stopped going to those rooms, but I still tip anonymously when I can.

As for drunk, meh. I don't like it, but with only 1 exception the models I have seen drink too much just do it once and never again.

 

[Sansa]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Re: MFC as a pimp, pimping involves a lot more than simply profiting off someone's sex work. Unlike a pimp, MFC doesn't force us to cam or abuse us, and we are free to leave at any time. MFC is like Etsy for boobs, there's more similarities there than to pimping.

Okay that is hilarious

But in all seriousness, places like, well, Etsy, eBay, and MFC for that matter, all have one important factor, they are bringing in a crowd and a service that is much larger than someone would get by setting up their own website (in most instances).

For instance, yea, I could make 100% of what someone is paying if I had my own site with it's own feed but here are the following complications with that.

-paying for a graphic designer, not many are going to give money to a crappy looking website
-any hosting related services, the domain, the server space, the bandwidth, a machine that can handle the traffic should you become popular or have a lot of hits
-advertising
-the difficulty of finding a crowd to come to your site
-there's a lot more, you get my drift

That said, MFC and other camsites on their own are not like pimps. They are merely venues where you can essentially sell something (in this case it's yourself as entertainment for others instead of knitted items or oddities, well maybe oddities haha), and a site that provides all of the above is more than entitled to take a portion of what members pay because I sure do not feel like dealing with any of that.

 

[weirdbr]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

I don't have anything to add, what is ethical for some is not for others, i would recommend you reading this AMA from a romanian model on Reddit

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2 ... studio_in/

she gives a insight of how it is inside the studio, some like "backstage" view of it, it may be interesting for you to have a look at this

I don't know if it was her intention on that IAmA, but that model showed one side of the studio system that I really dislike - it 'sells' to models the idea that the studios are needed/essential. In multiple answers she says she needed the studio for tech support, fast internet, gear, etc and that's why it made a sense for them to charge 50% of her income. Now, given the actual costs of running something like an studio in Romania (according to my romanian coworkers, cost of living there is quite low; fast internet is common and cheap), those folks are profiting quite a bit.... Now, if they had a lower margin and didn't try to keep the models believing that the studios are essential, maybe I would have a better opinion of them.

 

[Fay_Galore]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

I think this is an interesting topic, and I'm actually glad you brought it up, one might argue you're overthinking things, but I think there's nothing wrong with looking at things from a different perspective, and that is what you brought us/me.

I have not much to add from a member's perspective, but I do think about this sort of thing a lot from a model's perspective. My parents always encouraged me to pick a 'fair' profession, you offer a good service/product and get paid for it, something that adds to the society. One of my friends is a professional poker player, which to me falls into the same ethical category as camming, nothing wrong with it, but it's a non-traditional profession. if that makes sense. I sometimes feel, especially on MFC, we offer goods, but we are not merchants. We sell videos for tokens, but those tokens are tips and nothing more, someone's graditute, MFC tips are not officially a currency for goods, we 'sell' videos, but what we really do is offer a product in exchange for someone's gratitude in the form of a tip. You don't need to keep records of videos sold for taxes, members cannot exchange their goods, we're not a store. But the tendence does make it seem like that, I see girls say things like 'you tipped for a video, you want a thank you with that too?!, it's a business transaction' but that's legally not at all how it works. We rely (with the exception of privates, which is simply time for money) solely on gratitude.
Which to me is a bizarre idea, at the moment 100% of my income is based on people wanting to show me they appreciate me (and I give them smiles, videos, attention, dances, whatever in return, as a thank you for their appreciation). But it's so weird, is that an ethical way of living? I sometimes feel it's not a 'real' trade. I know I work hard for it, I know I put in more that 40 hours a week, the offline work is overwhelming at times, so it's a good thing people appreciate my shows And I understand this is partly to do with the fact I try not to call it a 'job' towards members, I don't use words like 'shift', 'dollars' (always 'tokens'), 'rent', 'vet bills' etc, because I choose to approach this as something FUN I do that makes a little money too. but still, at the end of the day, when I'm paying for my non-glamorous everyday groceries in real cash that used to be tokens, I wonder if this is fair earned normal-life-money, if I shouldn't be spending it exclusively on lingerie and bodypaint and glitter because that's what Fay's all about, there's no rent in the Fay universe.

This probably is a very sidetracked post, but just some things that are going round in my head often. sorry
to sum it up: It's weird to receive money in one universe and spend it in another. It's also weird to 'earn' money that is not a traditional transaction, but based on the gratitude of people.

 

[AerynShade]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

It's also weird to 'earn' money that is not a traditional transaction, but based on the gratitude of people.

I see it the same way as any other public performer. Like busking, especially. People perform a song, dance, magic show, etc then "pass the hat" and people tip or don't. I follow a street magician's blog, and reading it has made me realize that we have a helluva lot in common with street performers.

 

[RedHerby]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

..... i would recommend you reading this AMA from a romanian model on Reddit

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2 ... studio_in/

she gives a insight of how it is inside the studio, some like "backstage" view of it, it may be interesting for you to have a look at this

I'm not sure she is real, she could be a studio owner/manager (maybe an ex model) who is trying to build a better image for Romanian studio's in general, the real target for this IAmA seems to be future studio cam workers.

Or she works in the coolest Romanian cam studio there is.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

I think this is an interesting topic, and I'm actually glad you brought it up, one might argue you're overthinking things, but I think there's nothing wrong with looking at things from a different perspective, and that is what you brought us/me.

I have not much to add from a member's perspective, but I do think about this sort of thing a lot from a model's perspective. My parents always encouraged me to pick a 'fair' profession, you offer a good service/product and get paid for it, something that adds to the society. One of my friends is a professional poker player, which to me falls into the same ethical category as camming, nothing wrong with it, but it's a non-traditional profession. if that makes sense. I sometimes feel, especially on MFC, we offer goods, but we are not merchants. We sell videos for tokens, but those tokens are tips and nothing more, someone's graditute, MFC tips are not officially a currency for goods, we 'sell' videos, but what we really do is offer a product in exchange for someone's gratitude in the form of a tip. You don't need to keep records of videos sold for taxes, members cannot exchange their goods, we're not a store. But the tendence does make it seem like that, I see girls say things like 'you tipped for a video, you want a thank you with that too?!, it's a business transaction' but that's legally not at all how it works. We rely (with the exception of privates, which is simply time for money) solely on gratitude.
Which to me is a bizarre idea, at the moment 100% of my income is based on people wanting to show me they appreciate me (and I give them smiles, videos, attention, dances, whatever in return, as a thank you for their appreciation). But it's so weird, is that an ethical way of living? I sometimes feel it's not a 'real' trade. I know I work hard for it, I know I put in more that 40 hours a week, the offline work is overwhelming at times, so it's a good thing people appreciate my shows And I understand this is partly to do with the fact I try not to call it a 'job' towards members, I don't use words like 'shift', 'dollars' (always 'tokens'), 'rent', 'vet bills' etc, because I choose to approach this as something FUN I do that makes a little money too. but still, at the end of the day, when I'm paying for my non-glamorous everyday groceries in real cash that used to be tokens, I wonder if this is fair earned normal-life-money, if I shouldn't be spending it exclusively on lingerie and bodypaint and glitter because that's what Fay's all about, there's no rent in the Fay universe.

This probably is a very sidetracked post, but just some things that are going round in my head often. sorry
to sum it up: It's weird to receive money in one universe and spend it in another. It's also weird to 'earn' money that is not a traditional transaction, but based on the gratitude of people.

I think it's completely ethical, yo. And I don't think you should have to worry about spending "Fay's" money on... Mrs Chanandler Bong (you are now Mrs Chanandler Bong for the remainder of this post). When members tip Fay, they know that she doesn't exist in a vacuum. They know that while it's important for Fay to spend their/her money on sexy costumes and white/blackboards and makeup and lingerie, it's also important for Mrs Chanandler Bong to pay rent and buy lekker kruidnoten (for sustenance) and pay her electricity bill and her internet and her gas and her council tax (do they have that over there?). We know that in order for us to be able to hang out with Fay on cam, Mrs Chanandler Bong needs to keep her shit in order out in the real world, and we know that in order to do that, Mrs Chanandler Bong needs to dip into the money that Fay has earned. But that's fine because... dun dun duuuuun, they're the same person, yo.

And on the subject of members tipping out of gratitude rather than paying for a service or a product, I can't speak for other members obviously, but my tipping motivation isn't really as noble as all that. Gratitude and appreciation for hard work is part of it, sure, but ultimately I tip for mostly selfish reasons. I like using MFC as a virtual place to unwind in at the end of the day and I like that it's filled with fun, interesting, entertaining, sexy bbs in various states of undress. And I want it to be full of said bbs for as long as I'm making use of it, but I know that it won't be if nobody is tipping. So I tip. I know that my modest tips aren't going to keep any models on the site by themselves, but I also know that my small tips and his small tips and that guy's small tips and that other guy's small tips all add up and make a difference over time.

So if it helps any, the members tipping Fay don't mind Mrs Chanandler Bong spending those tokens (if anything, they expect it); and whether you view the tokens that you're tipped as being part of a transaction or purely borne out of gratitude, they're still very much earnt (and earnt ethically) by the hours you put in entertaining people. Tips don't exist in a vacuum either, ya know? :twocents-02cents:

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

I would say use your own intuition. If a model doesn't seem to enjoy doing things such as shows then don't purchase shows from her, if she seems to be in a dire situation where she's not consenting then don't purchase sexual stuff from her. You can still hang out in her room and enjoy her company. Lots of people don't enjoy their jobs and lots of people get pressured into working when they're feeling really under the weather. The difference with camming is when it becomes sexual. Use your own judgement on this because I will agree with you that in some situations it's hard to tell what the girl is willingly consenting to do or is being forced to consent to (this can be by financial circumstances rather than physically being forced).
If you want to purchase sexual services off a girl then go to girls who appear very happy to be there and in many cases aren't in studios. I think it's pretty nice that you think of these things, it's less of a big deal in the camming world but I think in cases like prostitution obviously most women are completely consenting to do it, but it's pretty dark to think that you'd never really know in some situations what the circumstance is. Most men don't think of these things.
I think in the camgirl case it is very rare that you get these situations and MFC does seem to stamp out studios involved in things like that.

For the camgirl being drunk scenario, well, it depends on the circumstance and what you're after. If she's acting tipsy and fun and is just hanging out in the room doing the same sort of thing as always then I don't think you need to worry about feeling unethical watching her. If on the other hand she seems out of control and is generally unbalanced/doing things she might regret the next day then probably profiting from her wastedness would be a bit immoral. You don't have to make her feel bad about being drunk, but maybe if she doesn't usually do cheap sex shows don't try to convince her into it.

Hanging out with a girl who's drunk/tipsy is totally acceptable, getting them to do sexual things while wasted? Hmmm it's a bit more questionable, but personally I think it's like the difference between getting drunk and coming home and having sex with your sober boyfriend (totally acceptable in my opinion) and getting drunk and having sex with a guy you've never slept before who's sober. If a girl usually does privates/shows then it's like she's having sex with her boyfriend, it's something she regularly consents to and is within her sober comfort zone. I wouldn't worry too much about it as drunk sex fun is awesome. If the girl usually doesn't do those things and you go in for a show when she's intoxicated then I'd say that's taking advantage.

Does that make any sense?

And whether using MFC is ethical- Do you tip? if you enjoy a service do you tip and thank the model? Do you have a wife/girlfriend who wouldn't be happy with you viewing?

Porn is pretty unethical IMO. A lot of the girls are young and are pressured into doing hardcore things on camera for long periods of time (which is physically painful and damaging). Most of those actresses are paid very little for their work and have next to no control over it. Cam girls on the other hand have full control over themselves and their brand. If you ever watch online porn then you've already stepped over an ethical line 10x worse than with camgirls. It's also pretty easy to find a happy willing camgirl. Just don't watch the girls who look like they're hating life. As much as I'd like to say "tip them and be nice!" MFC isn't a charity, a girl may be in a shitty situation but it's not your job to try and get them out.

 

[ItsBillyBitch]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Working in a studio is a job and models are expected to work a consistent schedule. Eight hours a day, six days a week is not an unreasonable work schedule by any measure.

Let’s be honest, most models are young and like many young adults, they have difficulty with time management and setting priorities. If the model you spoke about was ill, she shouldn’t have been working. But if she was just tired, I doubt it was from overwork and more likely due to something she did during her time off when she should have been sleeping.

Many members don’t understand the benefits of being a studio model, particularly for Eastern European models, nor do they have a realistic view of the working conditions. But without the of assistance of a studio, a new model from Eastern Europe would have an almost zero chance of success.

Having said all that, there are studios that exploit models. I can assure you that responsible and ethical studio owners would like nothing more than to see those studios shut down and are actively working towards that end. And that end is coming.

If you choose to only patronize independent models, so be it. However, I would suggest that you follow your intuitions and not limit your options because there are many happy, content, hard-working, and stunningly beautiful studio models who would enjoy your company.

My only other suggestion is to avoid the cesspool of depravity that is the MFC lounge. This forum is ok, if you understand that it is what it is, and I won’t elaborate further.

PS One interesting trend is that studios are becoming a “brand within a brand” in some situations. We are seeing customers that are not only loyal to a particular cam site or model, but also show loyalty to models from a particular studio as well.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

This forum is ok, if you understand that it is what it is, and I won’t elaborate further.

All of your post seemed really spot on about studios and avoiding the lounges, I'm just trying to work out what you meant by this comment? I can't tell if it was sly comment against this forum or just me mis-interpreting it.

 

[JimsX]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Working in a studio is a job and models are expected to work a consistent schedule. Eight hours a day, six days a week is not an unreasonable work schedule by any measure.

Let’s be honest, most models are young and like many young adults, they have difficulty with time management and setting priorities. If the model you spoke about was ill, she shouldn’t have been working. But if she was just tired, I doubt it was from overwork and more likely due to something she did during her time off when she should have been sleeping.

Many members don’t understand the benefits of being a studio model, particularly for Eastern European models, nor do they have a realistic view of the working conditions. But without the of assistance of a studio, a new model from Eastern Europe would have an almost zero chance of success.

Having said all that, there are studios that exploit models. I can assure you that responsible and ethical studio owners would like nothing more than to see those studios shut down and are actively working towards that end. And that end is coming.

If you choose to only patronize independent models, so be it. However, I would suggest that you follow your intuitions and not limit your options because there are many happy, content, hard-working, and stunningly beautiful studio models who would enjoy your company.

My only other suggestion is to avoid the cesspool of depravity that is the MFC lounge. This forum is ok, if you understand that it is what it is, and I won’t elaborate further.

PS One interesting trend is that studios are becoming a “brand within a brand” in some situations. We are seeing customers that are not only loyal to a particular cam site or model, but also show loyalty to models from a particular studio as well.

We are seeing customers

How many girls do you "own" and how much of their earnings do you take?

I can think of 3 Eastern European models on MFC who are pretty successful, and they are all independent. When models are falling asleep on cam because they have been working 10-12 hours with no breaks, this is not right.

 

[weirdbr]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Working in a studio is a job and models are expected to work a consistent schedule. Eight hours a day, six days a week is not an unreasonable work schedule by any measure.

A 48 hour per week contract is actually *the maximum* legally allowed by law in the vast majority of EU; normal contracts specify 40 hour per week with anything up to 48 being allowed without required payment of overtime (varies by country). So, considering that the law exists to curb abusive behaviour, I would say that 48 hours per week is unreasonable as it's on the edge of the law. (And as someone who has a 40h/w contract and used to actually work on average 10 hours per day 5 times a week, not counting commute time, there's no wonder that anyone on that sort of schedule is would be tired).

Many members don’t understand the benefits of being a studio model, particularly for Eastern European models, nor do they have a realistic view of the working conditions. But without the of assistance of a studio, a new model from Eastern Europe would have an almost zero chance of success.

Sure, there are benefits (a place to work from, have coworkers, fixed schedule outside of home so the family has fewer reasons to ask about work, etc), but to say that they have an almost zero chance of success is an exaggeration.

 

[ItsBillyBitch]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Warning: Pep talk

Let's not forget what this business is all about, entertainment and fun.

We can all sit around and complain about this or that, or we can get off our asses and make money.

This forum is a total brain fuck and I'm about to change that, the negativity must stop. I don't wanna hear about scamming or how customers are being emotionally compromised.

We make our customers lives better and that's all we do. It's not that complicated.

End of Pep talk

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

This forum is a total brain fuck and I'm about to change that, the negativity must stop. I don't wanna hear about scamming or how customers are being emotionally compromised.

Noobie no one recognizes or cares about, we applaud you laying down the law. Bold move.
Totally shouts 'I am ass, hear me roar!'

 

[weirdbr]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

This forum is a total brain fuck and I'm about to change that, the negativity must stop. I don't wanna hear about scamming or how customers are being emotionally compromised.

You do realise that in this forum we talk about *everything*, right? Not just the fun/entertaining side of camming, but also the bad things from the point of view from models and members...

I get a vibe from your initial post and the follow-up that you have a reason to defend studios (perhaps you are involved/own one?) but instead of trying to silence dissenting opinions by saying we should focus on the 'fun' things, you could try explaining to us your point of view with more details and maybe we might change our minds..

 

[Ann_Sulu]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

This forum is a total brain fuck and I'm about to change that, the negativity must stop. I don't wanna hear about scamming or how customers are being emotionally compromised.

You do realise that in this forum we talk about *everything*, right? Not just the fun/entertaining side of camming, but also the bad things from the point of view from models and members...

I get a vibe from your initial post and the follow-up that you have a reason to defend studios (perhaps you are involved/own one?) but instead of trying to silence dissenting opinions by saying we should focus on the 'fun' things, you could try explaining to us your point of view with more details and maybe we might change our minds..

I don't know what exactly provoked that post...

I think one of the main reasons why a lot of people don't tip and don't have as much fun in a lot of rooms is honestly lack of info. Whether it be to do with camsites, studios or cam models or whatever, I say if someone needs info they should ask.

There have been tons of things I've learned to point out on my own in my room because we discussed it on this forum first. There may seem to be negativity in the beginning of a thread, but I think it will lead to a better outcome for everyone if they discuss it.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

So... it was a dig at the forum?

8 hours a day 6 days a week is pretty intense. My ex has I think a 47.5 hour contract which doesn't include his breaks which means he has to work 10 hours a day 5 days a week. In fact he rarely even gets to take a break during these shifts, maybe 5/10 mins. It's not legal but hard to monitor. Doing those sorts of shifts on cam is crazy. Thing is with camming, though some girls seem to have crazy amounts of energy and can act like hyperactive sexy, cute, interesting sexbots for 8 hours straight most people just cannot handle that without going mad! In a regular job I don't have to act like I'm having the time of my life without actually having any interaction with others besides words on a screen and some background music.

We make our customers lives better and that's all we do.

I'm guessing from the use of "we" in this comment that you're part of running a studio or you are a model? You don't really sound like a model though from how you're coming across.

I'm not entirely sure camsites do make customer's lives better. I think we live in a world that has become so over populated that it's become lonely. People shy away from strangers and making connections is not as easy as perhaps it once was. We have these screens in our houses where inside is a wealth of information and miraculously, other people! So we go on these screens trying to form connections as of course we're lonely, anyone sat at home alone will be lonely as we are naturally social creatures. Places like MFC take advantage of this.
Problem is, it masks the symptoms of loneliness rather than dealing with the root of the problem. This can be an incredible thing, but it can also be people's worst enemy.

Do camgirls make a member's life better? No I would say they don't. Your life is outside the computer and camgirls can either distract someone from the real world or they can help give them the confidence to venture into the real world.
Do camgirls help combat the sting of loneliness? Yes they do.
Suicide is a major killer in men at the moment. I think possibly a large part is because loneliness and depression go hand in hand. Having someone on the other side of the computer screen who's fun, chatty and is interested in talking to you I imagine helps make life easier to live if you're going through a rough patch.

 

[SpencerStorm]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

I think this is an interesting topic, and I'm actually glad you brought it up, one might argue you're overthinking things, but I think there's nothing wrong with looking at things from a different perspective, and that is what you brought us/me.

I have not much to add from a member's perspective, but I do think about this sort of thing a lot from a model's perspective. My parents always encouraged me to pick a 'fair' profession, you offer a good service/product and get paid for it, something that adds to the society. One of my friends is a professional poker player, which to me falls into the same ethical category as camming, nothing wrong with it, but it's a non-traditional profession. if that makes sense. I sometimes feel, especially on MFC, we offer goods, but we are not merchants. We sell videos for tokens, but those tokens are tips and nothing more, someone's graditute, MFC tips are not officially a currency for goods, we 'sell' videos, but what we really do is offer a product in exchange for someone's gratitude in the form of a tip. You don't need to keep records of videos sold for taxes, members cannot exchange their goods, we're not a store. But the tendence does make it seem like that, I see girls say things like 'you tipped for a video, you want a thank you with that too?!, it's a business transaction' but that's legally not at all how it works. We rely (with the exception of privates, which is simply time for money) solely on gratitude.
Which to me is a bizarre idea, at the moment 100% of my income is based on people wanting to show me they appreciate me (and I give them smiles, videos, attention, dances, whatever in return, as a thank you for their appreciation). But it's so weird, is that an ethical way of living? I sometimes feel it's not a 'real' trade. I know I work hard for it, I know I put in more that 40 hours a week, the offline work is overwhelming at times, so it's a good thing people appreciate my shows And I understand this is partly to do with the fact I try not to call it a 'job' towards members, I don't use words like 'shift', 'dollars' (always 'tokens'), 'rent', 'vet bills' etc, because I choose to approach this as something FUN I do that makes a little money too. but still, at the end of the day, when I'm paying for my non-glamorous everyday groceries in real cash that used to be tokens, I wonder if this is fair earned normal-life-money, if I shouldn't be spending it exclusively on lingerie and bodypaint and glitter because that's what Fay's all about, there's no rent in the Fay universe.

This probably is a very sidetracked post, but just some things that are going round in my head often. sorry
to sum it up: It's weird to receive money in one universe and spend it in another. It's also weird to 'earn' money that is not a traditional transaction, but based on the gratitude of people.

Fay you hit the nail on the head for me...I feel the same way sometimes...I don't make very much currently but every dollar I spend I feel bad for not putting it back into camming...

I think it's completely ethical, yo. And I don't think you should have to worry about spending "Fay's" money on... Mrs Chanandler Bong (you are now Mrs Chanandler Bong for the remainder of this post).

and my name is bob you have stolen a piece of my heart here...now fay you you need to order the TV guide...lol...

 

[MrRodry]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Warning: Pep talk

Let's not forget what this business is all about, entertainment and fun.

We can all sit around and complain about this or that, or we can get off our asses and make money.

This forum is a total brain fuck and I'm about to change that, the negativity must stop. I don't wanna hear about scamming or how customers are being emotionally compromised.

We make our customers lives better and that's all we do. It's not that complicated.

End of Pep talk

 

[LilyEvans]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

So... it was a dig at the forum?

8 hours a day 6 days a week is pretty intense. My ex has I think a 47.5 hour contract which doesn't include his breaks which means he has to work 10 hours a day 5 days a week. In fact he rarely even gets to take a break during these shifts, maybe 5/10 mins. It's not legal but hard to monitor. Doing those sorts of shifts on cam is crazy. Thing is with camming, though some girls seem to have crazy amounts of energy and can act like hyperactive sexy, cute, interesting sexbots for 8 hours straight most people just cannot handle that without going mad! In a regular job I don't have to act like I'm having the time of my life without actually having any interaction with others besides words on a screen and some background music.

We make our customers lives better and that's all we do.

I'm guessing from the use of "we" in this comment that you're part of running a studio or you are a model? You don't really sound like a model though from how you're coming across.

I'm not entirely sure camsites do make customer's lives better. I think we live in a world that has become so over populated that it's become lonely. People shy away from strangers and making connections is not as easy as perhaps it once was. We have these screens in our houses where inside is a wealth of information and miraculously, other people! So we go on these screens trying to form connections as of course we're lonely, anyone sat at home alone will be lonely as we are naturally social creatures. Places like MFC take advantage of this.
Problem is, it masks the symptoms of loneliness rather than dealing with the root of the problem. This can be an incredible thing, but it can also be people's worst enemy.

Do camgirls make a member's life better? No I would say they don't. Your life is outside the computer and camgirls can either distract someone from the real world or they can help give them the confidence to venture into the real world.
Do camgirls help combat the sting of loneliness? Yes they do.
Suicide is a major killer in men at the moment. I think possibly a large part is because loneliness and depression go hand in hand. Having someone on the other side of the computer screen who's fun, chatty and is interested in talking to you I imagine helps make life easier to live if you're going through a rough patch.

I disagree that camgirls don't make members' lives better. I mean, obviously not ALL camgirls improve the lives of their members, and not ALL members have their lives improved by camgirls. But you seem to be implying that men who watch camgirls only do it for lack of other human interaction which is certainly not the case for every member.

I have had members who moved on from me because, according to one, I helped them regain their "mojo"; that is, interaction with me helped them understand that talking to women IRL doesn't have to be daunting or scary. This is a member I had grown particularly close to so his absence hurt a bit but I was so glad to hear that the hours (literally) we had spent together on camsites had changed his life for the better! I have also had married couples, or dudes who use cams as a surrogate for intimacy they don't get in their real life relationships (ex: a man whose wife is alive but cannot engage sexually, who uses cams to that end because an IRL sexual relationship outside his marriage is not in the cards.) Many more members just use cams as a form of entertainment, like TV or video games. I get Snaps from members like this full of friends, concerts, pets, jobs, and family, so they are clearly not lacking in the social department.

Obviously there are some members to whom cam sites can be detrimental but I do not believe they are the majority.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Might be in the minority but I've never had a problem with spending time with most studio models. They rarely seem as bitter and miserable when compared to independent models in my experiences. They don't do twitter or anything like that. Camming isn't as serious or important to them. I'm sure some hate it but the happiest and most fun camgirls I've spent time with are always studio models. Not saying I agree with everything studios do and teach but I don't really see them as a bad thing.

Do camgirls make a member's life better? No I would say they don't.

I mostly agree. What should be an escape from reality quickly becomes real life for a lot of members. Instead of going out and meeting people and making new friends they just sit at home in front of a computer. Can't blame the models for this tho and the same shit can kinda happen to them too.

 

[RedHerby]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

This probably is a very sidetracked post, but just some things that are going round in my head often. sorry
to sum it up: It's weird to receive money in one universe and spend it in another. It's also weird to 'earn' money that is not a traditional transaction, but based on the gratitude of people.

This "is it ok to make money like this" feeling I did have a few years ago when I did found out I was paid from the Dutch Development Aid budget. The Dutch government spends 0.7 % of their buget on Development Aid and the project I was hired for was paid from that budget. When I found this out I suggested to my boss to ask a lower hourly rate for me, my boss suggested then that I turn in the car from the company I was driving .... so nothing happened ....

 

[AmberCutie]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Might be in the minority but I've never had a problem with spending time with most studio models. They rarely seem as bitter and miserable when compared to independent models in my experiences. They don't do twitter or anything like that. Camming isn't as serious or important to them. I'm sure some hate it but the happiest and most fun camgirls I've spent time with are always studio models. Not saying I agree with everything studios do and teach but I don't really see them as a bad thing.

[

I can actually see why that might be the case. Non-studio cam girls sort of have to make it their life if they want to be wildly successful, maintaining a presence on social networking and keeping in somewhat constant contact with their biggest spending regulars. It can be really draining, and when things aren't going well, it's easy to take it very personally since we devote so much time off-camera to the job.

A studio girl may just see it as a social job that they clock in and out of, and aren't bitter toward it due to the hands-off approach they can take when they're off cam.

 

[RedHerby]

Re: How can I use a camsite in the most ethical way possible

Do camgirls make a member's life better? No I would say they don't.

Wow, that's a interesting question, if asked like "did some of the people you did meet in the cam world make you life better?" I will give a loud "YES" as answer !

However, this did happen after the paid model/member relation has ended, I would never have a friendship with females 20 years younger then me outside the cam world, now I have even weekend trips in Europian cities with them, and that is for sure adding a extra value to my life. That my requests to do this as "friends with benefits" are ignored is a bit disappointing also