AmberCutie's Forum
An adult community for cam models and members to discuss all the things!

Gun Appreciation Day "Backfires"

  • ** WARNING - ACF CONTAINS ADULT CONTENT **
    Only persons aged 18 or over may read or post to the forums, without regard to whether an adult actually owns the registration or parental/guardian permission. AmberCutie's Forum (ACF) is for use by adults only and contains adult content. By continuing to use this site you are confirming that you are at least 18 years of age.
Status
Not open for further replies.
mynameisbob84 said:
By and large we have no great love of guns over here, so we're perfectly happy the way things are.

That's great. So, why are people like you and Jupiter so insistent on trying to enforce your views on people in another country? Its nice that you have an opinion on a high profile subject, but to what aim? It doesn't concern you and you have no effect on the outcome.

Secondly, if you use meaningless terms like "assault weapon" and "military style rifle", then you have no business in a debate about guns. If you don't know the difference between a "clip" and a "magazine", then you also have no business in a debate about guns.

There, I'm done. This thread can be closed now. :)
 
JoeEmGee said:
mynameisbob84 said:
By and large we have no great love of guns over here, so we're perfectly happy the way things are.

That's great. So, why are people like you and Jupiter so insistent on trying to enforce your views on people in another country? Its nice that you have an opinion on a high profile subject, but to what aim? It doesn't concern you and you have no effect on the outcome.

Secondly, if you use meaningless terms like "assault weapon" and "military style rifle", then you have no business in a debate about guns. If you don't know the difference between a "clip" and a "magazine", then you also have no business in a debate about guns.

There, I'm done. This thread can be closed now. :)
I've seen NO attempt by our British and Australian friends to ENFORCE anything, much less their views. It's a discussion board, they're discussing. During discussions, opinions are often stated, this makes the discussion richer. I've pretty much limited my input to this thread because it's a repetition of another thread that also went in circles endlessly. So...discuss or don't, it's up to you.
 
Seeing as how cigarettes have entered into the discussion, I ran across this while researching e-cigs. The irrational fears, ignorance and misinformation pretty much parallels gun control issues in many ways.

Rachel Ray doesn't even want to touch an e-cig because, well, see for yourself.

 
JoeEmGee said:
if you use meaningless terms like "assault weapon" and "military style rifle", then you have no business in a debate about guns. If you don't know the difference between a "clip" and a "magazine", then you also have no business in a debate about guns.

Ignorance has never stopped the anti-gun crowd before. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Most anti-gun folks change their tune if you educate them AND take them for a day of hands on instruction, safety education and actually shooting firearms.

But don't just take my word on it:

 
  • Like
Reactions: LadyLuna
Bocefish said:
Seeing as how cigarettes have entered into the discussion, I ran across this while researching e-cigs. The irrational fears, ignorance and misinformation pretty much parallels gun control issues in many ways.

Rachel Ray doesn't even want to touch an e-cig because, well, see for yourself.


:lol: Yeah, the "fear of chemicals" has always been a pet peeve of mine.
 
JoeEmGee said:
mynameisbob84 said:
By and large we have no great love of guns over here, so we're perfectly happy the way things are.

That's great. So, why are people like you and Jupiter so insistent on trying to enforce your views on people in another country? Its nice that you have an opinion on a high profile subject, but to what aim? It doesn't concern you and you have no effect on the outcome.

Secondly, if you use meaningless terms like "assault weapon" and "military style rifle", then you have no business in a debate about guns. If you don't know the difference between a "clip" and a "magazine", then you also have no business in a debate about guns.

There, I'm done. This thread can be closed now. :)

It's a discussion, sir. Without opposing views in a discussion, things would get very boring very quickly.
 
JoeEmGee said:
If you don't know the difference between a "clip" and a "magazine", then you also have no business in a debate about guns.

If they don't know the difference between a "bullet" and a "round", the they have no business in a gun debate either.

Bocefish said:
Most anti-gun folks change their tune if you educate them AND take them for a day of hands on instruction, safety education and actually shooting firearms.

Where did you get that "fact" from? I have been there done that, fired hand guns, military weapons ie Bren guns, SLRs, bolt action rifles and would be classed as anti-gun.
 
JoeEmGee said:
mynameisbob84 said:
By and large we have no great love of guns over here, so we're perfectly happy the way things are.

That's great. So, why are people like you and Jupiter so insistent on trying to enforce your views on people in another country? Its nice that you have an opinion on a high profile subject, but to what aim? It doesn't concern you and you have no effect on the outcome.

Secondly, if you use meaningless terms like "assault weapon" and "military style rifle", then you have no business in a debate about guns. If you don't know the difference between a "clip" and a "magazine", then you also have no business in a debate about guns.

There, I'm done. This thread can be closed now. :)
As Nordling said, it's a discussion. Besides, polls show that in the US those against the executive orders regarding gun regulation are a fairly small minority. Pro-gun lobbies in the US make up all sorts of bullshit facts about crime in other countries, sometimes we, the people they're talking about, like to actually call them on their bullshit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LadyLuna
BullFrogBlues said:
JoeEmGee said:
If you don't know the difference between a "clip" and a "magazine", then you also have no business in a debate about guns.

If they don't know the difference between a "bullet" and a "round", the they have no business in a gun debate either.

Bocefish said:
Most anti-gun folks change their tune if you educate them AND take them for a day of hands on instruction, safety education and actually shooting firearms.

Where did you get that "fact" from? I have been there done that, fired hand guns, military weapons ie Bren guns, SLRs, bolt action rifles and would be classed as anti-gun.

Well good for you, and thanks for letting us all know that important little tidbit about yourself. :lol:

It does happen to be the truth from my personal experiences BFB, never said it was a world wide "fact" or anything. BTW, FYI, most does NOT mean all.
 
Jupiter551 said:
Pro-gun lobbies in the US make up all sorts of bullshit facts about crime in other countries, sometimes we, the people they're talking about, like to actually call them on their bullshit.

What are these so-called bullshit facts that you're calling them out on?

And please specify which pro-gun lobby you're referring to.
 
I've seen crime and murder rates from UK/Australia etc completely fabricated more times than I can count. If I had to bet which lobby, I'd suspect it was the one funded by gun, bullet and magazine manufacturers. That would be the NRA.
 
This one of my posts from another forum that i have been watching or some time.

Load these two tables next to each other, just to put it in perspective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_ ... by_country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

You will see that the US is far from having the worst murder rate by a very long way despite the highest gun ownership per capita.
Guns make killing easy, and so some of the US murders would not have occurred if there had been less guns in circulation, but they will only make up a fraction of the tonal number of murders. People are driven to drastic measures when the law and culture does not deny them and circumstances require drastic action. This is where the US differs from places like Australia.

Its the very British view that the role of government is to sit around and do nothing for the most part. Any decisions that are made are the product of a decade of committees and other general farting about that the final decision is relatively innocuous and mostly a good idea. We are also welfare state, where a minimum level of support is guaranteed by the state, so things do not become so desperate that people are forced into crime.

We as Australians do not believe we need to be armed to resist a tyrannical government, and never have. We trust our government not to do anything desperately stupid, and for the most part ignore them entirely. The members of the military we expect to respond to an unlawful order with the response "fuck you sir!" in the finest traditions of the Australian Army.

When it comes to things like mass shootings, they were so out of character for Australia that they led to the enactment of legislation that greatly restricted gun ownership. The usual political lethargy was overcome because the majority of Australians stayed active and angry for long enough to push the government to decisive action. There was some resistance from people, including me, but at the end of the day the will of the people got what they wanted. 20 years later i can say that I have moved on from gun ownership and don't miss it at all.

For me, as I have said before, is that we as Australians are mostly safe from, protected by and supported by the state. We know that there is one set of laws for all, that the judiciary stands separate and independent of the government, and that we will always have a non-violent means to resolve any disputes we encounter in day to day life.

If you look down that table of homicides, I expect that you will find that there is a direct correlation between Rule of Law and the level of violence. All of the stable governments with strong and effective judiciaries will be at the bottom of the list with the lowest crime rates and and the others will scale upwards depending on the levels of disruption, corruption and disintegration of the central government. The level of gun ownership, and the types of guns owned make very little difference.


An old American Friend of mine who lives in the south somewhere replied to the above and another post with the following

IF we look at the question from the USA viewpoint, in my quite non-urban, open-desert opinion we simply have too many people, of too many different ancestries or ethnicities (take your pick,) and with FAR! too many folks deliberately trying to whip up murderous rage in some group against any, several, or all other groups. Again, take your pick, it's probably going to be an underestimate.

Now, personally I really can't understand any of that. As far as I think (not know) none of us seem to have any ability to decide which "race" it may be into which we're born. I'm "white," was born into a lower-middle-(economic) class family, was raised mostly in rural to isolated situations, and figure the next person has just as much right to life as I do. Do I disagree with others? Of course - but in the enormous majority of situations those differences are either amenable to reason, or if necessary I choose to ignore those with whom it seems impossible to conduct a reasonable, polite discussion. One never knows when something someone with whom we disagree might say or post something that catches our interest and expands our understanding beyond what it may have previously been.

My probably worthless opinion on this topic is that too many people in our society have never been encouraged to look at other people, with different characteristics, beliefs, appearance, ancestry, etc. ad nauseum, with an eye to finding things we may actually find to be of personal value.

I don't mean to seem pedantic, but my Mom absolutely hated my high-school girlfriend because she was of Chinese ancestry. I couldn't possibly have cared less about her ancestry; her personality then and to this day is absolutely wonderful, we renewed our friendship some 20+ years after my Mom had driven her off, and the important thing about our association is that we viewed ourselves and each other merely as good people, our ancestry irrelevant. Now, I know that many people aren't able to think of others quite the same way.

We also have the historic fact of slavery in this country - and most people choose not to recall that it was NOT exclusively of black people. That's been heavily suppressed, but remains true nonetheless. However, even if black people were the only ones who were ever slaves here, they no longer are - and their opportunities today are determined by a combination of their own will and efforts, and (very unfortunately) by the ignorance, bigotry and stupidity of certain white AND BLACK people, none of whom have any excuse for their bigotry or stupidity.

So - long story short - it seems to me we're in a situation where there are a relatively few people who advocate, support, and work to use our racial / ethnec / ancestral differences as "reasons" for various hatreds. That's stupid. It further seems - unrelated - that our "entertainment" media have chosen to use violence as a main element in much to most of our contemporary television, motion picture, and even written entertainment. To me this seems incredibly unwise, for it may well desensitize young children to violence, increasing their likelihood of resorting to it.

Continuing this particularly long post, we also have a fairly large criminal segment of our society, and the most violent of that segment are frequently if not mostly involved with illegal drugs. I'm not going to debate the question of legalizing various drugs in this thread, but it is a fact that a significant percentage of firearms crime in our country involves drug traffickers and customers. As is pretty obvious, I don't use those drugs, so I really can't address why violence is so common within that segment of our population. But they add dramatically to the gun-violence problem we have.

I also believe very strongly that in general our children, predominantly our urban children, are never taught from earliest childhood to respect, understand, and know not only how and when to use a firearm - but vastly more importantly, how and when to NOT use one. This lack of education seems to be encouraged by the great majority of (apologies, Tony) our more "liberal" teachers, politicians, and private citizens who themselves have never been given that (IMO critically important) training.

Obviously I was so trained...

Essentially I think our gun-violence problem has nothing whatsoever to do with the weapons, but everything to do with our people mostly never being properly trained, from earliest infancy, in the proper respect for self and others, and in the life skills of conflict avoidance, de-escalation, and prevention. When one has never had such training, I imagine (personal opinion here) that what I would consider normal, personal restraint isn't as strong as it might be in me or in my associates, all of whom either had such training from earliest life, or who have deliberately developed such awareness and personal restraint.

Weapons of any sort aren't for the overly impulsive or the weak of mind, will or proper values, nor are they for the immature. In our society, sadly, we have allowed far too many of our kids to grow up overly impulsive, poorly disciplined, and eternally immature. That's a guarantee of problems.

OK - sorry, rant over.

Weapons are irrelevant; personal character is everything.
 
Jupiter551 said:
I've seen crime and murder rates from UK/Australia etc completely fabricated more times than I can count. If I had to bet which lobby, I'd suspect it was the one funded by gun, bullet and magazine manufacturers. That would be the NRA.

Like the ones from the Melbourne Institute that proved banning guns made no real difference in gun deaths or suicides?

PDF available@ http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/miaes ... t-178.html

Melbourne Institute Working Paper Series Database (1984 - 2010)
Melbourne Institute Working Paper No. 17/2008

The Australian Firearms Buyback and Its Effect on Gun Deaths

by

Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi

Date: August 2008

Abstract: The 1996-97 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) in Australia introduced strict gun laws, primarily as a reaction to the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania in 1996, where 35 people were killed. Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates.
 
JoeEmGee said:
mynameisbob84 said:
By and large we have no great love of guns over here, so we're perfectly happy the way things are.

That's great. So, why are people like you and Jupiter so insistent on trying to enforce your views on people in another country? Its nice that you have an opinion on a high profile subject, but to what aim? It doesn't concern you and you have no effect on the outcome.
So dismissive. Sure they don't get an actual say in what the US government will do but their opinions still matter. I'll tell ya what. I am tired of this debate (which is why I've avoided participating in this thread the last couple days) and tend to agree with their side more than the other side so they can speak partially on my behalf.

JoeEmGee said:
Secondly, if you use meaningless terms like "assault weapon" and "military style rifle", then you have no business in a debate about guns. If you don't know the difference between a "clip" and a "magazine", then you also have no business in a debate about guns.
People who don't know about guns can still be affected by them so I wouldn't be so hasty to simply dismiss their opinions either. Instead, as someone who sounds at least moderately passionate about firearms, maybe you should try educating the ignorant. As for the term "assault weapon," it is a relevant word to the debate since it is the very term which legislation is seeking to define in order to ban certain firearms.

You're entirely too eager to tell people that their opinions don't matter, sir.
 
Bocefish said:
Jupiter551 said:
I've seen crime and murder rates from UK/Australia etc completely fabricated more times than I can count. If I had to bet which lobby, I'd suspect it was the one funded by gun, bullet and magazine manufacturers. That would be the NRA.

Like the ones from the Melbourne Institute that proved banning guns made no real difference in gun deaths or suicides?

PDF available@ http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/miaes ... t-178.html

Melbourne Institute Working Paper Series Database (1984 - 2010)
Melbourne Institute Working Paper No. 17/2008

The Australian Firearms Buyback and Its Effect on Gun Deaths

by

Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi

Date: August 2008

Abstract: The 1996-97 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) in Australia introduced strict gun laws, primarily as a reaction to the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania in 1996, where 35 people were killed. Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates.

You did read the whole paper right? It's also worth noting that as a country with 20 million people, statistical drops can be significant while still appearing small compared to a nation with more than ten times that number.

A noteworthy feature of these studies that analyze the effects of the NFA is that
they are all based on aggregate statistics for the whole of Australia. Unfortunately, the
consistency of the approach taken by each state and territory government in Australia in
the enactment of uniform firearm legislation has meant that an evaluation can only be
conducted for the whole country and not for individual states or counties. In other
words, unlike most quasi-experiments analyzed in the evaluation literature, there is no
appropriate comparison group as the entire population in Australia was targeted.2 This
makes the use of difference-in-difference or matching estimators that explicitly rely on
comparison groups inappropriate. It also makes approaches often used in the US gun
control literature that are based on state-level variation in gun laws and which implicitly
rely on comparison groups infeasible.
 
mynameisbob84 said:
Bocefish said:
mynameisbob84 said:
In the UK at least, you would have to search far and wide before you came across somebody who would be happier if every other person was carrying a gun.
Wrong...

It has nothing to do with thinking every American has a gun (88 guns per 100 people apparently compared to 6 per 100 people in the UK). But the stats speak for themselves. Around 10,000 gun related deaths per year (and that's not even taking into account injuries that don't result in death) in the US vs the 60 or so we get in the UK. That's around 3 per 100,000 people (the minority undeniably) vs 0.1 per 100,000 in the UK. Even if the chances of a civilian being killed by a gun in the US is small (which it is), an American is still 30 times more likely to be shot than a Brit. By and large we have no great love of guns over here, so we're perfectly happy the way things are.

So by that same twisted logic people from Hawaii, New Hampshire, Vermont and Rhode Island should avoid travel to England and Wales since that area has a higher murder rate than those states? A mighty feat considering your lack of guns. But then that does tend to lead credence to the simple the guns aren't doing the killing, it's the people.

But since we're playing with number let's have fun. Granted the current overall murder rate is a bit higher than in England, 4.8 murders per 100,000 in the U.S. vs. 1.2 in England. But it is interesting to note that 7% of those murders in England were still done by gun. Most of the murders were done by sharp instrument, 36 percent. Whereas in America only 13 percent were committed by knives. So in all honestly American's travelling to England should really be more afraid of getting savagely sliced to death while there. And in Scotland 52 percent of the murders were done by knives. My god how can you sleep at night knowing you're so much more likely to be hacked to death by a wee pointy thing. I for one am avoiding those barbaric areas now.

As for the 88 guns for every american. That is meaningless. It's an average, which if you asked anyone who's studied statistics is one of the more useless measure out there. There's Mean, Median, Geometric Mean, Standard Deviation, Interquartile Range, Median Absolute Deviation...the list goes on for methods of quantifying data. The one that tells you the least about anything is average. The data you cite is the same as if I told you a scientific study was done of 9 men and one woman. The men all had 7 inch dicks. So on average everyone in the study had a penis length of 6.3 inches. Accurate as fuck but that woman is still rather pissed about the results isn't she? 88 people out of a hundred do NOT have a gun, that is just stupid. There's a lot of people that have more bringing the average up, it's irritating that basic concept even has to be explained when stupid averages are used. As my math teacher pointed when explaining why averages would never be used in his class 'Every single person on Earth including all of you in this classroom has less than two legs on average. Now that I've pointed out that stupidity let's move on to real math.'

I'll freely admit the the number of deaths per capita I cite can be just as misleading. To really understand it you have to break it down way more than looking at that one number. 4.8 per 100K (or 48 per million) murders - does that mean 48 people killed 48 other people? Does it mean 4 people killed a dozen each? It tells us nothing about the actual number of people that have actually committed murder. For all we know the U.S. could have a higher number of multiple murderers counted in those numbers than England. So in reality there might be a higher number of psychotic people per capita walking around in England than in the U.S.. See how averages can be so much fun?

What is meaningful is to look at crime rates where there's not a lot of guns. The District of Columbia comes out top - with 12 firearms murders per 100,000 and yet it's one of the hardest areas for the law abiding citizens to own a gun. The criminals have no problem however, much like that 7% of the gun toting murderers in England.


http://libertarianhome.co.uk/2012/12/uk ... us-states/
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports ... ce-uk.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... e-us-state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate
 
  • Like
Reactions: LadyLuna
jodeum said:
So by that same twisted logic people from Hawaii, New Hampshire, Vermont and Rhode Island should avoid travel to England and Wales since that area has a higher murder rate than those states? A mighty feat considering your lack of guns. But then that does tend to lead credence to the simple the guns aren't doing the killing, it's the people.

*snip*
Granted the current overall murder rate is a bit higher than in England, 4.8 murders per 100,000 in the U.S. vs. 1.2 in England.

A bit higher? Are you serious? What's England's murder rate x 4? The US murder rate.

If I was your bank manager and said we need to raise interest rates a 'bit higher', and then said we're quadrupling your interest rate, would you think that's a bit? Cos I'd call that a HELL OF A LOT HIGHER.

As for the other "facts"...you know I really think some people should look at actual data rather than reading sensationalist articles that are out to push an agenda. Half the mainstream media isn't even journalism, and hasn't been for years, it's mass market propaganda to serve corporate interests.

Where to start....
Murder rate per 100,000:
Vermont: 1.3 (2011) (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/vtcrime.htm)
New Hampshire 1.3 (2011) (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nhcrime.htm)
Hawaii 1.2 (2011) (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/hicrime.htm)
Rhode Island 1.3 (2011) (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/ricrime.htm)
England 1.2 (2011) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)
Wales 1.0 (2008)
The international crime comparison figures also revealed the murder rate in Wales was just over 10 per 100,000 people, slightly below England, and half the level in Scotland. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...f-violent-crime-91466-21705743/#ixzz2J5CPK4yR

So only Hawaii even matches. None are lower. None have cities the size of London, Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham either. Additionally, lumping England and Wales together is like combining statistics for California and Massachusetts. Yes, they're both part of the UNITED KINGDOM, just like all those states are part of the UNITED STATES, but England and Wales are different countries. As are Scotland and Northern Ireland for that matter. Scotland has a 0.5 murder rate per 100,000 people incidentally. So yes, 0.25/100,000 people in Scotland were killed by knives, and 88% of them were domestic and alcohol related. No child mass murders though so that's gotta be worth a few points right?

If you want to compare murder rates in a state that contains a city of comparible size with London (pop. 8,174,100) let's try New York City (pop. 8,244,910), the ONLY other US city even close to London's population. In case you were wondering the next largest population US city is Los Angeles which has less than HALF the population of London.
So how does the murder rate stack up?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population)
London: 1.5
New York City: 6.4

It's also worth mentioning that New York is currently celebrating their lowest murder rate in decades lol. 6.4! Good work guys, you're now hovering around the same murder rate as third world wartorn dictatorships!
 
To all the non-Americans pissing and moaning about how you did this or that... newsflash... we don't give a rip. You are not us and just because your rights were stripped away from you and allow your government dictate how you can defend yourself, that doesn't mean we will EVER allow that to happen here. You can argue until you're blue in the face and it won't change a damn thing. Hell, I probably couldn't even carry my Leatherman on my belt in London without the little pissy paranoids arresting me. Our 2nd Amendment guarantees that we will always have the right to keep and bear arms, period.
 
Gun Laws and the Fools of Chelm

Jan, 2013



The individual is not only best qualified to provide his own personal defense, he is the only one qualified to do so.



By David Mamet


Karl Marx summed up Communism as “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” This is a good, pithy saying, which, in practice, has succeeded in bringing, upon those under its sway, misery, poverty, rape, torture, slavery, and death.



In announcing his gun control proposals, President Obama said that he was not restricting Second Amendment rights, but allowing other constitutional rights to flourish.’


For the saying implies but does not name the effective agency of its supposed utopia. The agency is called “The State,” and the motto, fleshed out, for the benefit of the easily confused must read “The State will take from each according to his ability: the State will give to each according to his needs.” “Needs and abilities” are, of course, subjective. So the operative statement may be reduced to “the State shall take, the State shall give.”


All of us have had dealings with the State, and have found, to our chagrin, or, indeed, terror, that we were not dealing with well-meaning public servants or even with ideologues but with overworked, harried bureaucrats. These, as all bureaucrats, obtain and hold their jobs by complying with directions and suppressing the desire to employ initiative, compassion, or indeed, common sense. They are paid to follow orders.



Rule by bureaucrats and functionaries is an example of the first part of the Marxist equation: that the Government shall determine the individual’s abilities.



As rules by the Government are one-size-fits-all, any governmental determination of an individual’s abilities must be based on a bureaucratic assessment of the lowest possible denominator. The government, for example, has determined that black people (somehow) have fewer abilities than white people, and, so, must be given certain preferences. Anyone acquainted with both black and white people knows this assessment is not only absurd but monstrous. And yet it is the law.


President Obama, in his reelection campaign, referred frequently to the “needs” of himself and his opponent, alleging that each has more money than he “needs.”



But where in the Constitution is it written that the Government is in charge of determining “needs”? And note that the president did not say “I have more money than I need,” but “You and I have more than we need.” Who elected him to speak for another citizen?


It is not the constitutional prerogative of the Government to determine needs. One person may need (or want) more leisure, another more work; one more adventure, another more security, and so on. It is this diversity that makes a country, indeed a state, a city, a church, or a family, healthy. “One-size-fits-all,” and that size determined by the State has a name, and that name is “slavery.”


The Founding Fathers, far from being ideologues, were not even politicians. They were an assortment of businessmen, writers, teachers, planters; men, in short, who knew something of the world, which is to say, of Human Nature. Their struggle to draft a set of rules acceptable to each other was based on the assumption that we human beings, in the mass, are no damned good—that we are biddable, easily confused, and that we may easily be motivated by a Politician, which is to say, a huckster, mounting a soapbox and inflaming our passions.



The Constitution’s drafters did not require a wag to teach them that power corrupts: they had experienced it in the person of King George. The American secession was announced by reference to his abuses of power: “He has obstructed the administration of Justice … he has made Judges dependant on his will alone … He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws … He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass out people and to eat out their substance … imposed taxes upon us without our consent… [He has] fundamentally altered the forms of our government.”


This is a chillingly familiar set of grievances; and its recrudescence was foreseen by the Founders. They realized that King George was not an individual case, but the inevitable outcome of unfettered power; that any person or group with the power to tax, to form laws, and to enforce them by arms will default to dictatorship, absent the constant unflagging scrutiny of the governed, and their severe untempered insistence upon compliance with law.


The Founders recognized that Government is quite literally a necessary evil, that there must be opposition, between its various branches, and between political parties, for these are the only ways to temper the individual’s greed for power and the electorates’ desires for peace by submission to coercion or blandishment.


Healthy government, as that based upon our Constitution, is strife. It awakens anxiety, passion, fervor, and, indeed, hatred and chicanery, both in pursuit of private gain and of public good. Those who promise to relieve us of the burden through their personal or ideological excellence, those who claim to hold the Magic Beans, are simply confidence men. Their emergence is inevitable, and our individual opposition to and rejection of them, as they emerge, must be blunt and sure; if they are arrogant, willful, duplicitous, or simply wrong, they must be replaced, else they will consolidate power, and use the treasury to buy votes, and deprive us of our liberties. It was to guard us against this inevitable decay of government that the Constitution was written. Its purpose was and is not to enthrone a Government superior to an imperfect and confused electorate, but to protect us from such a government.



Many are opposed to private ownership of firearms, and their opposition comes under several heads. Their specific objections are answerable retail, but a wholesale response is that the Second Amendment guarantees the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. On a lower level of abstraction, there are more than 2 million instances a year of the armed citizen deterring or stopping armed criminals; a number four times that of all crimes involving firearms.



The Left loves a phantom statistic that a firearm in the hands of a citizen is X times more likely to cause accidental damage than to be used in the prevention of crime, but what is there about criminals that ensures that their gun use is accident-free? If, indeed, a firearm were more dangerous to its possessors than to potential aggressors, would it not make sense for the government to arm all criminals, and let them accidentally shoot themselves? Is this absurd? Yes, and yet the government, of course, is arming criminals.


Violence by firearms is most prevalent in big cities with the strictest gun laws. In Chicago and Washington, D.C., for example, it is only the criminals who have guns, the law-abiding populace having been disarmed, and so crime runs riot.


Cities of similar size in Texas, Florida, Arizona, and elsewhere, which leave the citizen the right to keep and bear arms, guaranteed in the Constitution, typically are much safer. More legal guns equal less crime. What criminal would be foolish enough to rob a gun store? But the government alleges that the citizen does not need this or that gun, number of guns, or amount of ammunition.


But President Obama, it seems, does.


He has just passed a bill that extends to him and his family protection, around the clock and for life, by the Secret Service. He, evidently, feels that he is best qualified to determine his needs, and, of course, he is. As I am best qualified to determine mine.


For it is, again, only the Marxists who assert that the government, which is to say the busy, corrupted, and hypocritical fools most elected officials are (have you ever had lunch with one?) should regulate gun ownership based on its assessment of needs.


Q. Who “needs” an assault rifle?



A. No one outside the military and the police. I concur.


An assault weapon is that which used to be called a “submachine gun.” That is, a handheld long gun that will fire continuously as long as the trigger is held down.



These have been illegal in private hands (barring those collectors who have passed the stringent scrutiny of the Federal Government) since 1934. Outside these few legal possessors, there are none in private hands. They may be found in the hands of criminals. But criminals, let us reflect, by definition, are those who will not abide by the laws. What purpose will passing more laws serve?


My grandmother came from Russian Poland, near the Polish city of Chelm. Chelm was celebrated, by the Ashkenazi Jews, as the place where the fools dwelt. And my grandmother loved to tell the traditional stories of Chelm.

Its residents, for example, once decided that there was no point in having the sun shine during the day, when it was light out—it would be better should it shine at night, when it was dark. Similarly, we modern Solons delight in passing gun laws that, in their entirety, amount to “making crime illegal.”


What possible purpose in declaring schools “gun-free zones”? Who bringing a gun, with evil intent, into a school would be deterred by the sign?


Ah, but perhaps one, legally carrying a gun, might bring it into the school.


If President Obama determines a need to defend his family, why can’t we defend our own?



Good. We need more armed citizens in the schools.


Walk down Madison Avenue in New York. Many posh stores have, on view, or behind a two-way mirror, an armed guard. Walk into most any pawnshop, jewelry story, currency exchange, gold store in the country, and there will be an armed guard nearby. Why? As currency, jewelry, gold are precious. Who complains about the presence of these armed guards? And is this wealth more precious than our children?


Apparently it is: for the Left adduces arguments against armed presence in the school but not in the wristwatch stores. Q. How many accidental shootings occurred last year in jewelry stores, or on any premises with armed security guards?


Why not then, for the love of God, have an armed presence in the schools? It could be done at the cost of a pistol (several hundred dollars), and a few hours of training (that’s all the security guards get). Why not offer teachers, administrators, custodians, a small extra stipend for completing a firearms-safety course and carrying a concealed weapon to school? The arguments to the contrary escape me.


Why do I specify concealed carry? As if the weapons are concealed, any potential malefactor must assume that anyone on the premises he means to disrupt may be armed—a deterrent of even attempted violence.


Yes, but we should check all applicants for firearms for a criminal record?


Anyone applying to purchase a handgun has, since 1968, filled out a form certifying he is not a fugitive from justice, a convicted criminal, or mentally deficient. These forms, tens and tens of millions of them, rest, conceivably, somewhere in the vast repository. How are they checked? Are they checked? By what agency, with what monies? The country is broke. Do we actually want another agency staffed by bureaucrats for whom there is no funding?


The police do not exist to protect the individual. They exist to cordon off the crime scene and attempt to apprehend the criminal. We individuals are guaranteed by the Constitution the right to self-defense. This right is not the Government’s to “award” us. They have never been granted it.


The so-called assault weapons ban is a hoax. It is a political appeal to the ignorant. The guns it supposedly banned have been illegal (as above) for 78 years. Did the ban make them “more” illegal? The ban addresses only the appearance of weapons, not their operation.


Will increased cosmetic measures make anyone safer? They, like all efforts at disarmament, will put the citizenry more at risk. Disarmament rests on the assumption that all people are good, and, basically, want the same things.


But if all people were basically good, why would we, increasingly, pass more and more elaborate laws?


The individual is not only best qualified to provide his own personal defense, he is the only one qualified to do so: and his right to do so is guaranteed by the Constitution.



President Obama seems to understand the Constitution as a “set of suggestions.” I cannot endorse his performance in office, but he wins my respect for taking those steps he deems necessary to ensure the safety of his family. Why would he want to prohibit me from doing the same?
_________________________
 
Mirra said:
Bocefish said:
Our 2nd Amendment guarantees that we will always have the right to keep and bear arms, period.

And our 18th amendment guarantees that alcoholic beverages will never be legally sold in the United States... oh wait.

And the 21st Amendment repealed the dumbass 18th Amendment on December 5, 1933 because it basically made every adult criminals and the jails were full.
 
The government has tried taking things away from Americans before. It doesn't work. During prohibition, you could still find a speak-easy in every non-redneck town, and a lot of people learned how to make their own moonshine, mead, or vodka. Nowadays, you find the same problem with the war-on-drugs. You can find a cocaine dealer in any town you want. It's not "the next state over has it", no, these were nation-wide bans on things. They always fail in the US. Why? Partly, it our ingenuity. Someone somewhere will figure out the loopholes, the security gaps. Partly, it's the corrupt cops. Someone will figure out how much of a bribe the cops need in order to look the other way, and others will find that they can actually buy the controlled substance from the cops themselves. (not saying all cops are corrupt, just that every town with more than 20 police are going to have a couple dirty cops)

So if they outlaw guns, it really will just be the criminals with the guns, not in that cute "they're criminals because they have guns and guns were outlawed" way. No, meaning, only people who are willing to break the law will have guns. Mostly thieves, probably gangs and drug lords. And suddenly the number of viable targets just became infinitely bigger...

No, I don't own a gun. But I feel safer because the criminals can't know I don't own one, unless I tell them somehow.
 
LadyLuna said:
The government has tried taking things away from Americans before. It doesn't work. During prohibition, you could still find a speak-easy in every non-redneck town, and a lot of people learned how to make their own moonshine, mead, or vodka. Nowadays, you find the same problem with the war-on-drugs. You can find a cocaine dealer in any town you want. It's not "the next state over has it", no, these were nation-wide bans on things. They always fail in the US. Why? Partly, it our ingenuity. Someone somewhere will figure out the loopholes, the security gaps. Partly, it's the corrupt cops. Someone will figure out how much of a bribe the cops need in order to look the other way, and others will find that they can actually buy the controlled substance from the cops themselves. (not saying all cops are corrupt, just that every town with more than 20 police are going to have a couple dirty cops)

So if they outlaw guns, it really will just be the criminals with the guns, not in that cute "they're criminals because they have guns and guns were outlawed" way. No, meaning, only people who are willing to break the law will have guns. Mostly thieves, probably gangs and drug lords. And suddenly the number of viable targets just became infinitely bigger...

No, I don't own a gun. But I feel safer because the criminals can't know I don't own one, unless I tell them somehow.


Exactly. The US is a long way from Australia or the UK in firearm legislation, and there is no point in trying to do that in one step. Better vetting and licencing is a start. Once the cost of that has been absorbed, repeal the second amendment, once that has been done, then worry about things like assault rifles. I'm sure Boce will say that the 2nd amendment will never be repealed, and I suspect he is right, but all this fucking about trying to get around the second amendment is a waste of everybody's money.

Vet people buying guns.
Health care for crazy people and depressed youngsters.
Mandatory firearm education. Learn how to use it, maintain it and store it safely.

The above three are huge and expensive targets, but might make a meaningful difference to the rate people die to firearms in the US, from accidents and mass shootings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LadyLuna
Red7227 said:
Vet people buying guns.
Health care for crazy people and depressed youngsters.
Mandatory firearm education. Learn how to use it, maintain it and store it safely.

The above three are huge and expensive targets, but might make a meaningful difference to the rate people die to firearms in the US, from accidents and mass shootings.

:clap: :clap: Now that would be common sense, meaningful legislation and the only portion of the new proposals that have a realistic chance of getting approved, atleast IMHO anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LadyLuna
Bocefish said:
Mirra said:
Bocefish said:
Our 2nd Amendment guarantees that we will always have the right to keep and bear arms, period.

And our 18th amendment guarantees that alcoholic beverages will never be legally sold in the United States... oh wait.

And the 21st Amendment repealed the dumbass 18th Amendment on December 5, 1933 because it basically made every adult criminals and the jails were full.
My point was that the amendments aren't written in stone. :p
 
jodeum said:
mynameisbob84 said:
Bocefish said:
mynameisbob84 said:
In the UK at least, you would have to search far and wide before you came across somebody who would be happier if every other person was carrying a gun.
Wrong...

It has nothing to do with thinking every American has a gun (88 guns per 100 people apparently compared to 6 per 100 people in the UK). But the stats speak for themselves. Around 10,000 gun related deaths per year (and that's not even taking into account injuries that don't result in death) in the US vs the 60 or so we get in the UK. That's around 3 per 100,000 people (the minority undeniably) vs 0.1 per 100,000 in the UK. Even if the chances of a civilian being killed by a gun in the US is small (which it is), an American is still 30 times more likely to be shot than a Brit. By and large we have no great love of guns over here, so we're perfectly happy the way things are.

So by that same twisted logic people from Hawaii, New Hampshire, Vermont and Rhode Island should avoid travel to England and Wales since that area has a higher murder rate than those states? A mighty feat considering your lack of guns. But then that does tend to lead credence to the simple the guns aren't doing the killing, it's the people.

But since we're playing with number let's have fun. Granted the current overall murder rate is a bit higher than in England, 4.8 murders per 100,000 in the U.S. vs. 1.2 in England. But it is interesting to note that 7% of those murders in England were still done by gun. Most of the murders were done by sharp instrument, 36 percent. Whereas in America only 13 percent were committed by knives. So in all honestly American's travelling to England should really be more afraid of getting savagely sliced to death while there. And in Scotland 52 percent of the murders were done by knives. My god how can you sleep at night knowing you're so much more likely to be hacked to death by a wee pointy thing. I for one am avoiding those barbaric areas now.

As for the 88 guns for every american. That is meaningless. It's an average, which if you asked anyone who's studied statistics is one of the more useless measure out there. There's Mean, Median, Geometric Mean, Standard Deviation, Interquartile Range, Median Absolute Deviation...the list goes on for methods of quantifying data. The one that tells you the least about anything is average. The data you cite is the same as if I told you a scientific study was done of 9 men and one woman. The men all had 7 inch dicks. So on average everyone in the study had a penis length of 6.3 inches. Accurate as fuck but that woman is still rather pissed about the results isn't she? 88 people out of a hundred do NOT have a gun, that is just stupid. There's a lot of people that have more bringing the average up, it's irritating that basic concept even has to be explained when stupid averages are used. As my math teacher pointed when explaining why averages would never be used in his class 'Every single person on Earth including all of you in this classroom has less than two legs on average. Now that I've pointed out that stupidity let's move on to real math.'

I'll freely admit the the number of deaths per capita I cite can be just as misleading. To really understand it you have to break it down way more than looking at that one number. 4.8 per 100K (or 48 per million) murders - does that mean 48 people killed 48 other people? Does it mean 4 people killed a dozen each? It tells us nothing about the actual number of people that have actually committed murder. For all we know the U.S. could have a higher number of multiple murderers counted in those numbers than England. So in reality there might be a higher number of psychotic people per capita walking around in England than in the U.S.. See how averages can be so much fun?

What is meaningful is to look at crime rates where there's not a lot of guns. The District of Columbia comes out top - with 12 firearms murders per 100,000 and yet it's one of the hardest areas for the law abiding citizens to own a gun. The criminals have no problem however, much like that 7% of the gun toting murderers in England.


http://libertarianhome.co.uk/2012/12/uk ... us-states/
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports ... ce-uk.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... e-us-state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

Who said anything about not travelling to America? I'd love to visit America and plan to do so one day (hopefully soon). I'm not anti-America. I'm anti-guns.

And as Jupiter pointed out, to say that the US murder rate is a "bit" higher than the UK's is a wee bit disingenuous (it's four times the amount). I would also be more fearful of a guy with a gun than a guy with a knife (though would obviously rather steer clear of both).

And the 88 guns per 100 Americans stat is just that - 88 guns per 100 Americans. I never said or implied that stat meant that there are 88 gun owners per 100 people in America. If you inferred differently, then I don't know what to tell you.
 
Bocefish said:
To all the non-Americans pissing and moaning about how you did this or that... newsflash... we don't give a rip.

Translation: "Okay so I can't actually debate legitimately using actual statistics so I'm just going to tell you to butt-out."

Btw I have a Leatherman and I carry it on my belt sometimes, no one cares or even looks twice at it. Still, I'd have to be some kind of fucking amazing ninja to kill 27 people with it before police could even arrive.

See this is what I really can't get my head around: no one is suggesting you shouldn't be able to have guns to protect yourself, or that your 2nd amendment should be repealed. There is clearly room for interpretation in the amendment though otherwise it would be legal to own nuclear warheads.

All that needs to happen really is background checks and paperwork for all gun sales - not to keep tabs on you but to make sure the right people can buy guns and the wrong people CAN'T. Also it would be helpful if we see Joe-Bob just bought 3000 rounds, 2 pistols and a carbine within the space of like a week, and the ATF can run a discreet check to see if he's maybe lost his job or been acting erratically or anything that might suggest he's about to go on a rampage.

Secondly...I just don't GET why anyone is against high capacity mag restrictions. The Aurora shooter had a drum magazine holding 100 rounds, he never even had to reload. WTF is the legitimate purpose of that? And does it outweigh the carnage it could potentially cause? 10 round mag is more than sufficient for anything. If you are defending yourself and you have a semi auto with a 10 round mag and it's not enough then either you're taking on an entire drug cartel single-handed or you need to spend less money on your gun and more time learning to fucking shoot.

If you're on the range carry a couple mags and, I know this is a novel idea, take two minutes to refill the empty ones when the mags are spent. How is any of this so crazy or difficult?
 
Jupiter551 said:
Bocefish said:
To all the non-Americans pissing and moaning about how you did this or that... newsflash... we don't give a rip.

Translation: "Okay so I can't actually debate legitimately using actual statistics so I'm just going to tell you to butt-out."

Go ahead, try and distort the obvious meaning just like all the other facts and figures that don't fit your opinion. Doesn't matter one way or the other.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.