Ferguson shooting grand jury verdict

[Felicity]

Absolutely disgraceful. :angry4:

 

[JickyJuly]

What gets me is that Obama was clearly disappointed the officer wasn't indicted during his speech last night and focused on the injustice of it all nation wide

Let's be honest. Obama doesn't care about the Ferguson decision. He's coming up on 8 years in office without doing anything to better the lives of black people. He's part of the problem, and he's rich enough that it doesn't affect him daily.

As far as the burning of flags goes, is it really disgraceful to burn the symbol of a country you feel has used you up and thrown you away? The violence can't be condoned, but the politicians stomp on the rights our flag stands for every day and get paid for it. If our flag now means that police can shoot unarmed citizens, spark it up.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

What gets me is that Obama was clearly disappointed the officer wasn't indicted during his speech last night and focused on the injustice of it all nation wide

Let's be honest. Obama doesn't care about the Ferguson decision. He's coming up on 8 years in office without doing anything to better the lives of black people. He's part of the problem, and he's rich enough that it doesn't affect him daily.

As far as the burning of flags goes, is it really disgraceful to burn the symbol of a country you feel has used you up and thrown you away? The violence can't be condoned, but the politicians stomp on the rights our flag stands for every day and get paid for it. If our flag now means that police can shoot unarmed citizens, spark it up.

The fact that I am able to burn the American flag and not get beheaded for it, is reason enough for me not to do it. Men fought and died for that right and I'm not going to disrespect them because they gave me the ability to. :twocents-02cents:

 

[GracieHart]

I don't really want to get into a gun debate cos I think it would take away from real the issues at play here but I do find it pretty strange that guns are handed out to cops who can't manage to avoid the head when shooting the 250lb guy who is running at them. Surely the arms and legs would to more to halt a suspect without killing them.

He was unarmed! He may have ran at the police officer but he was unarmed! And sure the police officer didnt know that for certain but why did he not halt him with shots to the leg? Or if he mistakenly thought he was reaching for something why not the arm? A shot to the head kills someone. What if he had been mentally ill and confused and was running towards him? Shoot first ask questions later?

I have a cousin who is huge in size and a grown man but the IQ of a 10 year old. He gets excited to see people he deems are "heroes" (cops, firefighters, anyone in uniform really) and runs at them every time. And I know from the faces of the cops that they freak out a little when it happens if we don't have a chance to explain. What if it was my cousin, who can look menacing, running at a cop?

I am not saying the cop didnt feel threatened. And I am not even saying he shouldnt have fired a shot. But 6 shots? 2 of which were to the head? In self defense? For future cases I hope to god they start to train officers in how to take down a threat without shooting to kill. Just in case ya know they get things wrong :twocents-02cents:

 

[Teagan]

Police are taught to shoot to kill, not shoot to halt. They are taught that as they are taught only to shoot when necessary, and when necessary it's to kill.

Being a cop is a dangerous job. So many people hate them and most for no or little reason. So when you are in a state of fear of being killed or attacked just for your job I think it's natural to be afraid for your safety when someone ignores your warnings to stop and runs towards you in a menacing fashion. Sucks but true. Hell i'm not a cop and if I saw some giant guy running at me i'd be afraid. You better believe my hand is going to whatever weapon I have on hand. I have a few in my purse, a few hidden in the car, and ones hidden in my own house too. Safety first cause it's your life you have to protect and no one values it as much as you do.

 

[GracieHart]

Police are taught to shoot to kill, not shoot to halt. They are taught that as they are taught only to shoot when necessary, and when necessary it's to kill.

Personally I think there in lies the issue. Even our armed response units here are not taught to shoot to kill. The aim should be to only use violence when necessary and even then to avoid lethal force if at all possible. Sure being a police officer is a hard and dangerous job but in a lot of countries they manage to do that job without even holding a gun. I just don't buy that when it is necessary to draw a weapon lethal force is always required. Life is too precious.

 

[Red7227]

Police are taught to shoot to kill, not shoot to halt. They are taught that as they are taught only to shoot when necessary, and when necessary it's to kill.

Being a cop is a dangerous job. So many people hate them and most for no or little reason. So when you are in a state of fear of being killed or attacked just for your job I think it's natural to be afraid for your safety when someone ignores your warnings to stop and runs towards you in a menacing fashion. Sucks but true. Hell i'm not a cop and if I saw some giant guy running at me i'd be afraid. You better believe my hand is going to whatever weapon I have on hand. I have a few in my purse, a few hidden in the car, and ones hidden in my own house too. Safety first cause it's your life you have to protect and no one values it as much as you do.

Yup. Its a decision made in a few seconds. People need to think of how many bad choices they make in any given year and then wonder what its like for someone like a police officer when those decisions can be life or death.

And police, as far as I'm aware, are trained to keep firing until the target goes down. That said, better training, supervision and accountability are needed of police because they have so much power.

 

[Gen]

Police are taught to shoot to kill, not shoot to halt. They are taught that as they are taught only to shoot when necessary, and when necessary it's to kill.

I'm the daughter of a cop, and at least here, they are not taught to shoot to kill. Their job isn't to play judge & jury, it's to play cop, which involves apprehending suspects, not murdering them. Obviously unavoidable situations happen, shooting someone repeatedly and to death who is unarmed & 150ft away isn't unavoidable.

Can someone cite which gang Mike Brown was allegedly in? Also while he may have been bulkier, he was the same height as Darren Wilson is.

Sad to see people get more upset about burning flags than murdered children.

 

[Felicity]

If he is old enough to vote and go to war he is not a child. Wtf is with people calling him a child. He was a man. It doesn't matter what side you believe, children do not rob stores for cigars!

 

[Gen]

If he is old enough to vote and go to war he is not a child. Wtf is with people calling him a child. He was a man. It doesn't matter what side you believe, children do not rob stores for cigars!

Sorry, 18 years old. A teenager. Such a stark difference :roll:

 

[VeeValencia]

If he is old enough to vote and go to war he is not a child. Wtf is with people calling him a child. He was a man. It doesn't matter what side you believe, children do not rob stores for cigars!

Sorry, 18 years old. A teenager. Such a stark difference :roll:

This family will always see him as a child.

I don't know very many people that would consider their 18 year old offspring full grown adults. His family didn't get to see him become ~a man~. He doesn't get to become a father or get a degree or do any of the things that many adults accomplish. A family has lost their son, grandson, brother but yes let's get upset over burning flags and shoplifting teenagers.

 

[JickyJuly]

What gets me is that Obama was clearly disappointed the officer wasn't indicted during his speech last night and focused on the injustice of it all nation wide

Let's be honest. Obama doesn't care about the Ferguson decision. He's coming up on 8 years in office without doing anything to better the lives of black people. He's part of the problem, and he's rich enough that it doesn't affect him daily.

As far as the burning of flags goes, is it really disgraceful to burn the symbol of a country you feel has used you up and thrown you away? The violence can't be condoned, but the politicians stomp on the rights our flag stands for every day and get paid for it. If our flag now means that police can shoot unarmed citizens, spark it up.

The fact that I am able to burn the American flag and not get beheaded for it, is reason enough for me not to do it. Men fought and died for that right and I'm not going to disrespect them because they gave me the ability to. :twocents-02cents:

I think your sentiment relies on the idea that your country gives you the right to exist. Most people believe that the value of their life and their right to live is not granted by or changed by their citizenship. It's beautiful to take pride in your country and to think of the servicemen who've fought under that flag. But, there's an entire group of citizens who don't feel safe. They have a right to express their emotions. The flag and country belong to all of us.

 

[Teagan]

@Gracie I agree they should not be taught that if they're gonna shoot it should be to kill. Sadly part of the reason they are taught that is if they shoot to halt they open themselves up to being sued. Just like if you shoot someone in your own home you have to actually kill them or they can sue you for hurting them. Even though they broke in your house yes people here get sued for defending themselves. And the criminals actually win the cases.

If they removed people being able to sue cops for shooting to halt I believe protocol would change greatly. A lot of the countries that dont give their police guns dont have guns to begin with so it's "even" like England. People dont have guns so the cops dont. Here though everyone can get a gun so the cops do too.

@Red Agreed. And they are taught to keep going till the person is down on the ground. So if he didnt drop immediately the cop is gonna keep firing until he is. Seeing as how big the attacker was and coming toward him and momentum taken into account many shots would be needed to do that.

@Gen That may be in Canada but that is not the case here. Ive dated a cop. I have many cop friends. I have friends who I went to school with who are cops. Or friends whos family is a cop. It's only draw your weapon when necessary and when necessary it should be a shoot to kill situation. You do everything you can to not get it to that point if necessary like warning them and such as the cop did in this situation. If it's not you keep your sidearm on your hip with your hand on it only. Theyre not even supposed to flip the clasp that holds it to their holster until theyre ready to pull it.

And yeah this guy was not a child or kid. He was a grown ass man capable of making his own decisions. He made the wrong ones though and paid the price. 18 is an adult anywhere in this country. Really though it doesn't matter. No ones stopping to ask for ID when they're being attacked and feel their life is in danger. I dont care how old he was, he was attacking someone.
He also was not 150ft away from him.
And i said it before and i'll say it again someone charging you with a weapon can be just as dangerous as someone without one. You have no idea what someone has on them at any given time or what their intent it. All you know is they are running toward you and it sure aint to give you a hello cuddly hug.

Also he was not murdered. He was killed. Murder is premeditated and no one can come close to saying the cop planned to kill this guy that day. If were gonna talk about stuff we should at least state facts about it.

@Vee I know lots of parents who consider their 18 year olds adults. They kick them out on their own, they start charging them rent, etc. but even so 18 is the law here. His family doesnt get to see him do more in life as he made the choices he did. That's not anyones fault but his own. He will always be THEIR child but he is not A child.
Also he didnt just shoplift, he assaulted someone in that store. He didnt sneakily go in and take a candy bar and leave. He took some drugs, he stole things, assaulted someone, and then attacked a cop. Sorry but he is not an innocent kid.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

One of the things that came out in the DA's press conference was how many of the "eyewitnesses" weren't in fact any where near the scene. These "eyewitnesses" were interviewed by the media, their stories amplified and distorted by social media. I would be suspicious of relying on ANY of the reports of what you heard happened at Ferguson, Mike Brown raised his hands, he was shot 175 away, Mike was member of the gang. At least some of these "facts" were created by an eyewitness who was blocks away. Even among the eyewitnesses who were actually there there is lots of conflicting testimony.

Beyond that basics that Officer Wilson shot and killed Mike Brown, I'd throw out everything you think you know what happened at Ferguson.
I am figuring that 9 white and 3 black members of the grand jury after spending 25 days listening to testimony know more than I do and reached the right decision. But if you'd like you are free to read the thousands of pages of testimony. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...cs-how-the-grand-jury-reached-a-decision#docs, or you can wait until your favorite news organization has had a chance to read the thousands pages and come to their conclusion.

 

[MrRodry]

If he is old enough to vote and go to war he is not a child. Wtf is with people calling him a child. He was a man. It doesn't matter what side you believe, children do not rob stores for cigars!

Ok, children do not rob stores for cigars but I think the medical investigator should do some work and gather some information on a crime scene instead of going "Hey! it is just another of those boring cases in which somebody shot somebody, fuck gathering vital evidence of those cases."

(...)
The medical investigator took no photos

The medical investigator did not take photographs at the scene of Brown's killing because the camera battery had died, the grand jury heard.

The investigator, who goes to the crime scene to collect evidence for the pathologist, also did not take measurements of anything at the scene because they "didn't need to."

The investigator, whose name was redacted, said: "It was self-explanatory what happened. Somebody shot somebody. There was no question as to any distances or anything of that nature at the time I was there."

Typically, a medical investigator will take crime scene photos in addition to the ones taken by police investigators.

The investigator testified that they did not see evidence of "stippling" (gunpowder) around the wounds on Brown's body.

source http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justi ... index.html

 

[mynameisbob84]

Even if we accept that all these murdered black teens were resisting arrest when they were killed (let's also ignore what they were doing at the time and whether the police had legitimate cause to be questioning them), do we really have to accept that shooting these people until they stopped breathing was the only viable option? Police are not army. Black people are not the enemy. Police are paid to protect and serve, and that includes black teens who may (or may not) have committed a crime. Black people make up around 13% of the American population and yet over a third of arrest-related homicides are black people. Why is that? Are black people simply unable to comply with police? Or is law enforcement guilty of systemic racism? There's an awful lot of anecdotal and statistical evidence to support the latter.

I don't think too many people are claiming that Mike Brown was innocent. That he committed a robbery isn't being questioned. The question being asked is "did he deserve to die and did the officer have to kill him?". To see said officer go to trial and be judged by his peers in a court of law seems reasonable, does it not? And yet he's not even indicted. To put this in to perspective...

Grand juries not resulting in indictments:

Police Officers: 80 of 81

Civilians: 11 of 162,000

If this doesn't send a loud and clear message to the people of Ferguson, I don't know what would.

And on the subject of the flag: nobody ever died for a flag. A lot of people did die for the freedoms of their country though, and that includes the freedom to burn a piece of cloth should someone choose. The people of Ferguson no doubt feel failed by their country right now, but they at least have the freedom to show the world what they're feeling. If that means burning a few flags, so be it. To take that freedom away from them just seems wrong under the circumstances.

 

[VeeValencia]

@Vee
Also he didnt just shoplift, he assaulted someone in that store. He didnt sneakily go in and take a candy bar and leave. He took some drugs, he stole things, assaulted someone, and then attacked a cop. Sorry but he is not an innocent kid.

Well it seems to me that there should have been a trial. Mike Brown is dead so clearly he never got one and now Darren Wilson isn't being indicted. Whether or not you feel like Mike Brown deserved death for his (unarmed) actions is another issue. If this had gone to trial and this cop was "innocent" then ok but that's not what happened and that's where the injustice lies.

 

[Gen]

He also was not 150ft away from him.

Wilson said he fired one shot from within the car, Brown was found ~150 feet away from there. If he was in fact running towards the shots as Wilson claims, then he shot at him when he was further away than that. Am I misinterpreting this?

Also he was not murdered. He was killed. Murder is premeditated and no one can come close to saying the cop planned to kill this guy that day. If were gonna talk about stuff we should at least state facts about it.

Sorry - second degree murder. An assault in which the victim's death is a distinct possibility. Still murder. In my opinion, this qualifies as an assault in which the victim's death is a possibility. Either way, it's a matter of semantics & opinion seeing as it's not going to trial, so I'll stick with calling it murder and you can stick with calling it not.


Either way, sure seems like it should have gone to trial. I can't imagine how frustrated and disappointed his family must be.

 

[GracieHart]

@Gracie I agree they should not be taught that if they're gonna shoot it should be to kill. Sadly part of the reason they are taught that is if they shoot to halt they open themselves up to being sued. Just like if you shoot someone in your own home you have to actually kill them or they can sue you for hurting them. Even though they broke in your house yes people here get sued for defending themselves. And the criminals actually win the cases.
If they removed people being able to sue cops for shooting to halt I believe protocol would change greatly. A lot of the countries that dont give their police guns dont have guns to begin with so it's "even" like England. People dont have guns so the cops dont. Here though everyone can get a gun so the cops do too.

There are plenty of criminals with guns in the UK and Ireland. And to honest if money (avoiding being sued) is considered more important than life in the US is it any wonder that people are burning their flags?

@Gen That may be in Canada but that is not the case here. Ive dated a cop. I have many cop friends. I have friends who I went to school with who are cops. Or friends whos family is a cop. It's only draw your weapon when necessary and when necessary it should be a shoot to kill situation. You do everything you can to not get it to that point if necessary like warning them and such as the cop did in this situation. If it's not you keep your sidearm on your hip with your hand on it only. Theyre not even supposed to flip the clasp that holds it to their holster until theyre ready to pull it.


Also he was not murdered. He was killed. Murder is premeditated and no one can come close to saying the cop planned to kill this guy that day. If were gonna talk about stuff we should at least state facts about it.

He shot him twice in the head and you already said that cops are taught only to use lethal force when drawing their weapons. Surely that means that he intended to kill him as soon as he fired his weapon? But honestly the use of the word murdered versus killed seems like semantics. An unarmed man was shot by a police officer 6 times and died. Whether he committed a crime before or not should not be the key issue - preventing this happening in the future should be everyones primary concern and it appears from the laws in place and the shoot-to-kill practices that is unlikely to happen :twocents-02cents:

 

[JickyJuly]

If he is old enough to vote and go to war he is not a child. Wtf is with people calling him a child. He was a man. It doesn't matter what side you believe, children do not rob stores for cigars!

My kid stole a sweet tart sucker from the comfort of her stroller before she turned two. My husband took it back and paid for it. She is not marked as a criminal and no one was shot. Age aside, petty theft is not something people in America are put to death for and everyone deserves a trial, right? Any assault is just alleged and will always remain alleged because his right to a trial was taken away when his right to live was.

 

[Felicity]

Jicky I had a problem with people labeling him as a child. I never said robbing a store deserves death.

 

[Gen]

Darren Wilson is doing his first TV interview tonight on ABC at 6:30pm EST, preview here.

 

[Kradek]

Defendants have rights to trials. In this case, should the grand jury have decided to indict (accuse Wilson of a crime), Wilson would be the defendant, not Brown.

I suspect had Wilson been tried, the current uproar would have just been delayed until the end of the trial.

 

[Teagan]

@Vee
Also he didnt just shoplift, he assaulted someone in that store. He didnt sneakily go in and take a candy bar and leave. He took some drugs, he stole things, assaulted someone, and then attacked a cop. Sorry but he is not an innocent kid.

Well it seems to me that there should have been a trial. Mike Brown is dead so clearly he never got one and now Darren Wilson isn't being indicted. Whether or not you feel like Mike Brown deserved death for his (unarmed) actions is another issue. If this had gone to trial and this cop was "innocent" then ok but that's not what happened and that's where the injustice lies.

I never said he deserved death. I believe I actually said the opposite when I said cops should not only be taught to shoot to kill. I actually never said whether or not I think he deserved to die but rather that he suffered the consequences of his actions. Attacking a cop means you may get shot and to think any different is stupid.

It may seem to you that there should be a trial but an entire jury who sat through everything decided it did not merit one. They heard every piece of evidence, deliberated for hours over it, and just did not see any evidence or wrong doing deserving this cop to be put through a trial in any way. Had he been put through a trial the decision would be the same as the evidence isnt even there for an indictment let alone a guilty verdict. That's not injustice, that's our justice system at work. You can personally believe it's wrong and I get that but a jury disagrees with you. Just like another one would if he was put to trial with no evidence of murder.

@Gen I dont believe this qualifies as an assault on the officers part. I believe it is a case of the cop defending himself from being attacked himself. One person went to attack another and the other party reacted. They just happened to be a cop and a black guy.

@Gracie I do know there are guns there but the difference is it's legal here for almost anyone to have one. So any person a cop talks to could be carrying where more than likely in another country that does not allow them it's less likely to run across one. I agree though it looks like money is put above life when being sued is taken into account in officer training. Or in self defense in general here. It really needs to be changed. Their whole training needs an overhaul.


Im just gonna say again that if you ignore a cops warnings and are going to attack one you should have the common sense to know you may be shot and killed in the US. They are not doing anything but protecting their own lives. They dont know you, your intent, what you have on you, what drugs you may be on or not, they dont know a damn thing but the fact that someone is about to attack them. In that situation with someone coming after me after I tell them to stop I would shoot their ass no problem. Its my life or theirs as far as I know and you better believe im shooting till they are down and can not keep coming after me. Self defense makes you a killer, not a murderer.

 

[Bocefish]

For the people that did not see it... St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch articulately describes step by step how the Grand Jury did their job to the best of their ability and arrived at the conclusion they did. It's part of how our justice system works. There was no fixed jury or coerced decisions. The evidence showed the officer acted well within the law and did what he was trained to do. Had Michael Brown been white, the same results would have happened. And he wasn't 150 feet away like someone exaggerated. He was 8-10 feet away when he finally dropped and Officer Wilson kept backing up while firing his weapon, otherwise Brown would have been on top of him.



ETA: Wilson's testimony...

According to the diagram of the crime scene, the placement of the spent shell casing supports Wilson’s testimony. He states that he fired twice while he was in the car, and two shell casings were found with the vehicle.

He then states that when Brown stopped, he also stopped, shot, and moved backward from his original position; shell casings suggest he was moving.“Well, after the last shot my tunnel vision kind of opened up. I remember seeing the smoke from the gun and I kind of looked at him and he’s still coming at me, he hadn’t slowed down.

At this point I start backpedaling and again, I tell him get on the ground, get on the ground, he doesn’t. I shoot another round of shots. Again, I don’t recall how many it was or if I hit him every time. I know at least once because he flinched again.

”“He keeps coming at me after that again, during the pause I tell him to get on the ground, get on the ground, he still keeps coming at me, gets about 8 to 10 feet away. At this point I’m backing up pretty rapidly, I’m backpedaling pretty good because I know if he reaches me, he’ll kill me.

”Wilson continues that Brown kept running at him, leaning forward, and he still had one hand in his waistband.“Just coming straight at me like he was going to run right through me. And when he gets about that 8 to 10 feet away, I look down, I remember looking down at my sites [sic] and firing, all I see is his head and that’s what I shot.”

 

[Shaun__]

Police cameras? All for it. Should we insist on it? You bet! Just wanted to emphasize that it needs to be implemented the "right way". And it won't happen tomorrow, either.

The amount of recordings would be daunting as its a legal issue rather than just being like Army helmet cams. There are laser units attached to a lot of guns these days that are operated by trigger pressure. Adding a camera to the laser and making them mandatory on all police firearms would be more practical.

They already have cameras in most cars, body cameras would be no more difficult and are already used in some cities. Places that already use body cameras saw complaints against cops drop sharply, I do not know if people are making less false reports, cops are behaving better, or a combination of the two.

 

[VeeValencia]

Police cameras? All for it. Should we insist on it? You bet! Just wanted to emphasize that it needs to be implemented the "right way". And it won't happen tomorrow, either.

The amount of recordings would be daunting as its a legal issue rather than just being like Army helmet cams. There are laser units attached to a lot of guns these days that are operated by trigger pressure. Adding a camera to the laser and making them mandatory on all police firearms would be more practical.

They already have cameras in most cars, body cameras would be no more difficult and are already used in some cities. Places that already use body cameras saw complaints against cops drop sharply, I do not know if people are making less false reports, cops are behaving better, or a combination of the two.

It's worked well in Rialto, CA. I don't have much trust in our justice system so I see this as our best option.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

He also was not 150ft away from him.

Wilson said he fired one shot from within the car, Brown was found ~150 feet away from there. If he was in fact running towards the shots as Wilson claims, then he shot at him when he was further away than that. Am I misinterpreting this?

You aren't. But the reporter is relying on an unnamed and unquoted source rather than forensic evidence and sworn testimony in front of grand jury. The 150 feet may or may not be true.

Also he was not murdered. He was killed. Murder is premeditated and no one can come close to saying the cop planned to kill this guy that day. If were gonna talk about stuff we should at least state facts about it.

Sorry - second degree murder. An assault in which the victim's death is a distinct possibility. Still murder. In my opinion, this qualifies as an assault in which the victim's death is a possibility. Either way, it's a matter of semantics & opinion seeing as it's not going to trial, so I'll stick with calling it murder and you can stick with calling it not.


Either way, sure seems like it should have gone to trial. I can't imagine how frustrated and disappointed his family must be.[/quote]

The criminal trials work differently in the US than in Canada or the UK.

The 5th amendment requires this "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury"

This is designed to prevent overzealous prosecutors from going after people they don't like. Canada no longer has these,and I think the country is worse due to their disappearance.

A common use of grand jury as in this case is to provide political cover for a prosecutor who is under political pressure "to hang the bastard"

 

[camstory]

It's only the first minute of this video that is relevant, and even that not so much to this thread, but it does show the huge difference between police in the UK and here. This guy would have been killed almost immediately here in the states, regardless of mental state. And personally I wish US cops were a bit more like those in the UK.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

It's only the first minute of this video that is relevant, and even that not so much to this thread, but it does show the huge difference between police in the UK and here. This guy would have been killed almost immediately here in the states, regardless of mental state. And personally I wish US cops were a bit more like those in the UK.

Most of the time the guy would be have tasered in the US not shot. There is also a big difference between having to deal with potentially dangerous guy when you have 8 turning into 20 cops with riot shields to help out vs, the situation where it is one or two officers.