Feminism and the Men's Right's Movements

[LadyLuna]

The mindfuck thread is getting derailed by this discussion, so a new thread was called for. I shall be the brave soul.

To understand where I and a couple others are coming from, it's important to watch the following things in the proper order. If you don't watch "Feminism and the Disposable Male" first, I guarantee you won't have a mind open enough for the rest of the message.

So, the exact post that started the debate:

Please keep an open mind as you watch these. And don't try to do it all in one sitting, I've been watching all the videos by these three people for the past... uh... month I think.

From Girl Writes What

Feminism and the Disposable Male

Look out! It's a Nice Guy! Destroy Him!!11!

Those privileged blue bundles of joy

Then Man Woman Myth

Equality Playlist (mostly about the view of war and the view of the pay gap)

Misandry Playlist (highlights how women are valued above men, how misandry isn't recognized but misogyny is, and about rape issues)

Then Typhon Blue

Why Feminism is Wrong About Patriarchy

We're Not a Hate Movement

Vleaks1.0: Female Submission as Emotional Dominance (please note, she isn't talking about BDSM lifestyle)

V-leaks1.1: Domestication of the Human Male

I Doubt I'll Have Any Subscribers After This One... MAN CRACK!

The Threat Narrative Playlist

 

[Aella]

I didn't see the debate, but I watched Girl Writes What and the Man Woman Myth ones.

Girl Writes What is awesome - her arguments are rational, emotionally neutral, and she is very articulate.

But the Man Woman Myth ones were awful. I just felt anger at women seeping through every word and it seemed to undermine everything they were trying to say.

I am a proponent of men's rights and disagree with many aspects of feminism and the attitudes presented there, but there is no excuse for warping statistics and accusing one gender of being inherently worse than another.

 

[SweepTheLeg]

May I ask what aspects of feminism you disagree with?

Granted my argument is always feminism is about the equality of the sexes, not women > men and that's where the term gets misused and misunderstood by both sides.

 

[Aella]

Yeah, it *does* depend on how you define and mean feminism. In general when I hear the word I generally end up disagreeing with portions of what is stated. There are occasions when I don't, though.

But yes. Equality for both. It gets complicated, though, because gender roles and evolutionary biology are real actual things that tend to mess things up.

 

[southsamurai]

Yeah, it *does* depend on how you define and mean feminism. In general when I hear the word I generally end up disagreeing with portions of what is stated. There are occasions when I don't, though.

But yes. Equality for both. It gets complicated, though, because gender roles and evolutionary biology are real actual things that tend to mess things up.

yes maam, very much so!
our genetics and biology make men and women different ( for which i am grateful). it also gives us advantages and disadvantages in any given area. for example men put on muscle faster and can gain more than women, but women tend to use their stored resources (fat and muscle) more efficiently. the list can go on, but that isnt the point. the point is that being different, having separate skill sets does not negate equality, it enhances it. (well it does imo).

it may seem silly in the modern era to refer to old school gender roles as a possible bastion of equality, but in a way it does. the hunter/homemaker duality brings a bit of cringe to a lot of modern people, feminists especially. but if we look at it and value those roles it can allow us to cherish the differences and view them as valuable and wonderful in their own right. those roles arent the only things that can be covered by the idea of equality through differences, but it carries the gist of it.

 

[Aella]

Right, exactly. We have a biological tendency towards certain roles, so it is, to a certain point, understandable when people behave that way. And I don't mind it at all when it's harmless - when a man opens doors for a woman, when a woman puts on makeup to try to appear more attractive, etc.

As long as no rights are being violated, and as long as a woman can potentially hold the same jobs as a man if she really wants to, and as long as a man can be the provider of the home with all the same legal rights to his children, then that's good.

People dislike that it's harder for one gender to do certain things than another, and on one hand I understand. I shouldn't have to work 150% harder for a position that a man gets just as easily.

But on the other hand, getting dealt a hand that puts you with an advantage at some things and a disadvantage with others is kind of how life works, and we don't decry it in a lot of other ways. If you're gonna bash at one advantage inequality, you have to bash at them all, not just in the realm of gender differences.

 

[SexySteph]

I watched a few of the videos, specifically "feminism and the disposable male" and I feel like that woman has almost no experience with the feminist movement. She might hear stereotypes or might have beenaround uneducated 'feminists' who go around with the mindset of 'men have the perfect life! Fuck men!' but what her idea of feminism is is not feminism at all. I'm a 5th year student in women's studies and I can tell you that we spend about 45-65% of our time discussing how societal expectations have hurt males. THAT'S what the feminist movement is working against. We're trying to help ALL of us, but men will be just as bad off until things get changed in our world.


From http://m.jezebel.com/5992479/if-i-admit ... g-prophecy

Feminists do not want you to lose custody of your children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to make alimony payments. Alimony is set up to combat the fact that women have been historically expected to prioritize domestic duties over professional goals, thus minimizing their earning potential if their “traditional” marriages end. The assumption that wives should make babies instead of money is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to get raped in prison. Permissiveness and jokes about prison rape are part of rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be lonely and we do not hate “nice guys.” The idea that certain people are inherently more valuable than other people because of superficial physical attributes is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to pay for dinner. We want the opportunity to achieve financial success on par with men in any field we choose (and are qualified for), and the fact that we currently don’t is part of patriarchy. The idea that men should coddle and provide for women, and/or purchase their affections in romantic contexts, is condescending and damaging and part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents, or toil in coal mines while we do cushy secretarial work and various yarn-themed activities. The fact that women have long been shut out of dangerous industrial jobs (by men, by the way) is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to commit suicide. Any pressures and expectations that lower the quality of life of either gender are part of patriarchy. The fact that depression is characterized as an effeminate weakness, making men less likely to seek treatment, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be viewed with suspicion when you take your child to the park (men frequently insist that this is a serious issue, so I will take them at their word). The assumption that men are insatiable sexual animals, combined with the idea that it’s unnatural for men to care for children, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be drafted and then die in a war while we stay home and iron stuff. The idea that women are too weak to fight or too delicate to function in a military setting is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want women to escape prosecution on legitimate domestic violence charges, nor do we want men to be ridiculed for being raped or abused. The idea that women are naturally gentle and compliant and that victimhood is inherently feminine is part of patriarchy.
Feminists hate patriarchy. We do not hate you.

 

[NataliaGrey]

I tend to look at gender roles this way. The Hunter is a masculine role, the Homemaker is a feminine role. However, there is nothing wrong with a man being feminine, or a woman being masculine. I think everyone has a mix of masculine and feminine traits, regardless of their biological sex, and that should be embraced.

I consider myself a feminist, but I don't like to use the word if it can be avoided, not because I'm ashamed, but because there are so many misunderstandings of it. And how is that really surprising, when you can ask five feminists what it means and get five different answers? Humanist is usually a much less alarming term. Men and women, even the ones that generally agree with the values, get defensive when they hear the word "feminist."

 

[zippypinhead]

I watched a few of the videos, specifically "feminism and the disposable male" and I feel like that woman has almost no experience with the feminist movement. She might hear stereotypes or might have beenaround uneducated 'feminists' who go around with the mindset of 'men have the perfect life! Fuck men!' but what her idea of feminism is is not feminism at all. I'm a 5th year student in women's studies and I can tell you that we spend about 45-65% of our time discussing how societal expectations have hurt males. THAT'S what the feminist movement is working against. We're trying to help ALL of us, but men will be just as bad off until things get changed in our world.


From http://m.jezebel.com/5992479/if-i-admit ... g-prophecy

Feminists do not want you to lose custody of your children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to make alimony payments. Alimony is set up to combat the fact that women have been historically expected to prioritize domestic duties over professional goals, thus minimizing their earning potential if their “traditional” marriages end. The assumption that wives should make babies instead of money is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to get raped in prison. Permissiveness and jokes about prison rape are part of rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be lonely and we do not hate “nice guys.” The idea that certain people are inherently more valuable than other people because of superficial physical attributes is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to pay for dinner. We want the opportunity to achieve financial success on par with men in any field we choose (and are qualified for), and the fact that we currently don’t is part of patriarchy. The idea that men should coddle and provide for women, and/or purchase their affections in romantic contexts, is condescending and damaging and part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents, or toil in coal mines while we do cushy secretarial work and various yarn-themed activities. The fact that women have long been shut out of dangerous industrial jobs (by men, by the way) is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to commit suicide. Any pressures and expectations that lower the quality of life of either gender are part of patriarchy. The fact that depression is characterized as an effeminate weakness, making men less likely to seek treatment, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be viewed with suspicion when you take your child to the park (men frequently insist that this is a serious issue, so I will take them at their word). The assumption that men are insatiable sexual animals, combined with the idea that it’s unnatural for men to care for children, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be drafted and then die in a war while we stay home and iron stuff. The idea that women are too weak to fight or too delicate to function in a military setting is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want women to escape prosecution on legitimate domestic violence charges, nor do we want men to be ridiculed for being raped or abused. The idea that women are naturally gentle and compliant and that victimhood is inherently feminine is part of patriarchy.
Feminists hate patriarchy. We do not hate you.

This. This. A thousand, million, billion times this!

The changing role of the male in contemporary society is a subject that I find incredibly interesting. I've done research projects on the subject, in fact. The findings and conclusions I've come to have run pretty consistently counter to what the "men's rights" movement claims. Yes, the role of the modern male has shifted as we've given greater considerations of equality to women, along with several other factors that have generated a greater overall dependence upon traditionally "feminine" roles and activities in everyday business. However, to me, "men's rights" is a childish reaction to an evening out of existing privilege. The complaints always strike me as on par with white racists complaining, "we're the real minorities!" It strikes me as a somewhat dangerous form of social conservatism, with the thinly-veiled overarching theme being, "remember when women knew their place?" I ain't gonna cotton to that. The endowment of rights to a disenfranchised group is not synonymous with the revocation of existing rights for those groups already enjoying them, even when the newly-given rights result in greater opportunities and rates of social success that would otherwise have been afforded to the group with existing advantage. The loss of one's advantage might be uncomfortable, but it's simply not the same thing as the loss of actual rights.

 

[mynameisbob84]

I watched a few of the videos, specifically "feminism and the disposable male" and I feel like that woman has almost no experience with the feminist movement. She might hear stereotypes or might have beenaround uneducated 'feminists' who go around with the mindset of 'men have the perfect life! Fuck men!' but what her idea of feminism is is not feminism at all. I'm a 5th year student in women's studies and I can tell you that we spend about 45-65% of our time discussing how societal expectations have hurt males. THAT'S what the feminist movement is working against. We're trying to help ALL of us, but men will be just as bad off until things get changed in our world.


From http://m.jezebel.com/5992479/if-i-admit ... g-prophecy

Feminists do not want you to lose custody of your children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to make alimony payments. Alimony is set up to combat the fact that women have been historically expected to prioritize domestic duties over professional goals, thus minimizing their earning potential if their “traditional” marriages end. The assumption that wives should make babies instead of money is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to get raped in prison. Permissiveness and jokes about prison rape are part of rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be lonely and we do not hate “nice guys.” The idea that certain people are inherently more valuable than other people because of superficial physical attributes is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to have to pay for dinner. We want the opportunity to achieve financial success on par with men in any field we choose (and are qualified for), and the fact that we currently don’t is part of patriarchy. The idea that men should coddle and provide for women, and/or purchase their affections in romantic contexts, is condescending and damaging and part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be maimed or killed in industrial accidents, or toil in coal mines while we do cushy secretarial work and various yarn-themed activities. The fact that women have long been shut out of dangerous industrial jobs (by men, by the way) is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to commit suicide. Any pressures and expectations that lower the quality of life of either gender are part of patriarchy. The fact that depression is characterized as an effeminate weakness, making men less likely to seek treatment, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be viewed with suspicion when you take your child to the park (men frequently insist that this is a serious issue, so I will take them at their word). The assumption that men are insatiable sexual animals, combined with the idea that it’s unnatural for men to care for children, is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want you to be drafted and then die in a war while we stay home and iron stuff. The idea that women are too weak to fight or too delicate to function in a military setting is part of patriarchy.
Feminists do not want women to escape prosecution on legitimate domestic violence charges, nor do we want men to be ridiculed for being raped or abused. The idea that women are naturally gentle and compliant and that victimhood is inherently feminine is part of patriarchy.
Feminists hate patriarchy. We do not hate you.

I read that Jezebel article when it was first posted a few weeks back and thought it was well-written and I mostly agreed with it... but... I can't help but think the whole 'misandry' thing is a distraction that's not gonna go away until both sides of the argument accept it for what it is - a pointless argument that men and women are equally to blame for. And I don't think that articles like the Jezebel one necessarily help matters.

Here be my take on misandry.

There are two sides to this argument and until both sides are acknowledged by both sexes, shit's just gonna go 'round in circles forever more (I have now firmly planted both feet on my soapbox and may be up here for a while :?)...

Firstly, misandry exists. To say that it doesn't is every bit as ridiculous as saying that misogyny isn't a thing. And every time a feminist argues that misandry is a myth, they propogate another, more damaging myth. They propogate the myth that feminists are man-haters and apologists for fellow man-haters and should therefore be ignored. Not just by men, but by other women who want to distance themselves from the stereotypes being unwittingly cultivated. And that's a problem, ya know?

The flipside of that, is that while misandry is unquestionably a shitty thing to experience, it's not the same as experiencing misogyny. The main reason being; we live in a patriarchal society and not a matriarchal one. It's the misogynists that (not exclusively, but enough of the time for it to be an issue) make the decisions that profoundly effect women in ways that men seldom encounter. Misogyny is prevalent in media, in politics, in sports, in business, in entertainment. Misandry... isn't. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it's not as damaging, ya know? (This isn't to suggest that a patriarchal society is always amazing for men, because it's not. It's a fundamentally flawed system. But it's clearly women who are most negatively effected by that flawed system).

I tend to think of both misogyny and misandry as noxious farts, right? They both smell equally crappy, the only difference is that, in this fart-based analogy, the misogyny fart is piped into the houses and workplaces of women the world over and they're pretty much forced to smell it on a daily basis. The misandry fart meanwhile... it's out there, sure, but it's not being force-fed to men; it's more like a floating cloud that men sometimes have to pass by in order to get to where they're going.

I think if feminists stopped ragging on men for being offended by misandry, men would stop seeing it as a reason to not listen to feminists, and wouldn't be able to use it as a crutch any longer. Misandry is just so far removed from what feminism strives for, that it's kinda depressing that it's become such a big part of so many people's idea of what feminism actually is. Feminism is (or at least I choose to believe it is) about embracing differences while promoting equality. It's not about tearing down the patriarchy, just so we can usher in a matriarchy. It's about working towards egalitarianism :twocents-02cents:

Tl;dr - Misogyny, bad. Misandry, bad. Patriarchy, bad. Equality, good.

 

[SexySteph]

This. This. A thousand, million, billion times this!

The changing role of the male in contemporary society is a subject that I find incredibly interesting. I've done research projects on the subject, in fact. The findings and conclusions I've come to have run pretty consistently counter to what the "men's rights" movement claims. Yes, the role of the modern male has shifted as we've given greater considerations of equality to women, along with several other factors that have generated a greater overall dependence upon traditionally "feminine" roles and activities in everyday business. However, to me, "men's rights" is a childish reaction to an evening out of existing privilege. The complaints always strike me as on par with white racists complaining, "we're the real minorities!" It strikes me as a somewhat dangerous form of social conservatism, with the thinly-veiled overarching theme being, "remember when women knew their place?" I ain't gonna cotton to that. The endowment of rights to a disenfranchised group is not synonymous with the revocation of existing rights for those groups already enjoying them, even when the newly-given rights result in greater opportunities and rates of social success that would otherwise have been afforded to the group with existing advantage. The loss of one's advantage might be uncomfortable, but it's simply not the same thing as the loss of actual rights.

Zippy... I just got a total brain boner for you...

EDIT: Also, what you said about the changing role of men in contemporary society, I find this topic FASCINATING as well. Men's role has changed SO much, but not because women are making them, but because this idea of "society" is telling them too.As women have become more powerful, the ideal man has become more and more buff and larger as if to keep the divide between men and women greater. That is not to say that a REAL man is larger and more buff, but what society is telling us is a real man is changing, so men have to work harder to fit the ideal. An easy way to see this is look at how the hero character has changed, or look at boys toys, GI Joes for example. My original intention in being a women's studies major was to teach literature and focus on men's changing roles in literature (and by literature I mean books, movies, cartoons, etc,). But, alas, I decided that I don't want to be in college for 6 MORE years so, I am opening a restaurant instead.

 

[bob]

The endowment of rights to a disenfranchised group is not synonymous with the revocation of existing rights for those groups already enjoying them

bravo..... :thumbleft:
until an individual gets enough empowerment or confidence...or whatever it has been, is, or will be called....movements of some persuasion or another are gonna resonant with various folks.....that's the whole point: to find those things that do resonate and make 'em a part of your life.

the mistake seems always to be to me that someone in the movement thinks the message is important enough to impress upon people, as in dogmatically...and the media of course helps with that, feeding us with its truth, as well as confusing us all by mashing everything together into a pablum fit for consumer sheep, and impressing upon us what's important to think about.

there's a lot about men's/women's right stuff to sift through, and some of it feels like just recognizing that we don't live in caves anymore...in spite of what we all know is true about biology....to me, that points to the importance of discussions like this, and a search for individual truth that is both tenacious as hell, and lighthearted as heaven.

because whatever society is gonna end up doing, it's gonna be slow and painful.....and we've only got one life to make it work for us.

 

[LadyLuna]

Misandry is EVERYWHERE in the media though. The fact that no one notices it is what is alarming to the people who do.

Men getting beat on being considered funny, why is that okay? We all agree that women being beat on isn't funny.

When was the last time you heard about brave men, when it wasn't in the context of "men, women, and children"? No, if a group of male firefighters does something, it's "firefighters". But if a mixed group of firefighters does the same thing, it's "firemen and women".

Fact: women are more likely to do abusive things than men.
Fact: men are more likely to be convicted of abusive things than women.

We are taught not to trust men so strongly, yet we're never taught about what damage women can do. Personally, I experienced it. Every bad experience when I was in foster care had a woman behind it. Most of the good ones had a man. I've always viewed men as protectors, and women to be feared, because that was my personal experience. Only when I hit college and went to an all-women's school did I get inundated with "don't trust men". And still, to this day, I have stronger negative reactions to women than I do towards men.

Rape culture- most women believe that the culture is "it's okay to rape women". That's not the rape culture. The rape culture is "men can't be raped." See, when a man is raped, they get cries of "why couldn't you just enjoy it?" Many times, the woman who raped him is held up as some kind of hero. When a woman claims rape, whether it was true or not, the man she accuses is shredded publicly, before it's even determined if he really raped her or not. And those times when it turns out to be false, his life has already been ruined by the charge. Even though he never did. Know what happens to rapists in prison? They have to be separated from the other prisoners. Even the criminals in our country don't want to associate with a rapist.

I went to a feminist college. I heard the misandry all around me, and I didn't even really see it. I did see through the cries of "misogyny!" when there really wasn't any going on. Chrome doesn't believe misandry exists, the word is highlighted in red every time I type it.

I will admit that early feminism did some really good things, but enough is enough! Women crying "misogyny!" at a man holding open the door is like the asshole who cried racism when I talked about my white car (as in, my car that had white paint...).

This blog post sums up my feelings about this stuff really nicely (it's the same one I linked to in the other thread, but plenty here haven't seen it).

 

[southsamurai]

honestly? about 90 odd percent of "men's rights" are more "father's rights". on pretty much every field except that one men are equal, or have an advantage (assuming we are speaking of legal footing and not just gender bias). there are a small handful of fields where men get the short stick, but oh well, they tend to be in ones that being male makes the job more difficult anyway.

childcare for example; yeah men can be great nurturers and can be compassionate, dutiful wonderful caregivers, but fear overwhelms that. men are statistically more likely to be the bad guy when it comes to crimes involving children other than their own (if memory serves the numbers are close to equal when it comes to one's own children). thus more restrictions are placed on and more attention given to men in that field. bias? certainly. but a realistic one at least.

where men really get shorted is in custody cases. any single parent has it rough, male or female, and neither gender is better capable of being a single parent. both have to work to provide for the young, both have to find a way to make time between work and nurturing the kids, so why the disparity? unrealistic bias.

the only other stuff that can really be noted is more recent in occurrence. the last 20 years or so there have been more cases of men being denied jobs and such in preference to women. i don't know that it is really bias, at least not from what i have personally seen. it seems to be more an attempt to find balance. i think that after another decade or two such things will find a place where the best person for the job is hired, regardless of gender (or race, religion etc...). just going to be a while before the pendulum of thought and action settles down into normality.


the rest of it falls under "misandry" which is less legal and more ethical. even in the courtroom (men being more likely to receive a conviction for the same crime, or receiving stiffer sentences) a lot of that isnt a matter of the law being unbalanced, its a matter of the people on the jury, or in places of power being biased unconsciously. definitely needs correcting, but i think it will do so over time by itself.

 

[SexySteph]

Misandry is EVERYWHERE in the media though. The fact that no one notices it is what is alarming to the people who do.

Men getting beat on being considered funny, why is that okay? We all agree that women being beat on isn't funny.

When was the last time you heard about brave men, when it wasn't in the context of "men, women, and children"? No, if a group of male firefighters does something, it's "firefighters". But if a mixed group of firefighters does the same thing, it's "firemen and women".

Fact: women are more likely to do abusive things than men.
Fact: men are more likely to be convicted of abusive things than women.

We are taught not to trust men so strongly, yet we're never taught about what damage women can do. Personally, I experienced it. Every bad experience when I was in foster care had a woman behind it. Most of the good ones had a man. I've always viewed men as protectors, and women to be feared, because that was my personal experience. Only when I hit college and went to an all-women's school did I get inundated with "don't trust men". And still, to this day, I have stronger negative reactions to women than I do towards men.

Rape culture- most women believe that the culture is "it's okay to rape women". That's not the rape culture. The rape culture is "men can't be raped." See, when a man is raped, they get cries of "why couldn't you just enjoy it?" Many times, the woman who raped him is held up as some kind of hero. When a woman claims rape, whether it was true or not, the man she accuses is shredded publicly, before it's even determined if he really raped her or not. And those times when it turns out to be false, his life has already been ruined by the charge. Even though he never did. Know what happens to rapists in prison? They have to be separated from the other prisoners. Even the criminals in our country don't want to associate with a rapist.

I went to a feminist college. I heard the misandry all around me, and I didn't even really see it. I did see through the cries of "misogyny!" when there really wasn't any going on. Chrome doesn't believe misandry exists, the word is highlighted in red every time I type it.

I will admit that early feminism did some really good things, but enough is enough! Women crying "misogyny!" at a man holding open the door is like the asshole who cried racism when I talked about my white car (as in, my car that had white paint...).

This blog post sums up my feelings about this stuff really nicely (it's the same one I linked to in the other thread, but plenty here haven't seen it).

I feel that, one, you didn't actually ready my argument, and two, you're going off false facts. About the men can't be raped thing, have you ever heard a feminists argument on that? To put it concisely, men can be raped, men are raped and our goal is to remove the shame surrounding a man admitting he was raped. The only people who ask a male victim of rape why they didn't enjoy it are MEN. And being an accused rapist ruining a mans life? Have you not heard of the most recent situation in which the two high school students convicted of rape were publicly given MORE SYMPATHY than the victim? As a rape victim I was told, it's your word against his, and, you're a lying whore. Who suffered because of him being an accused rapist? Me, the victim. I lost friends and his friends (and my own) just became stronger supporters of him in that trying time.

 

[JordanBlack]

Steph & zippy I wanna hug you both! :handgestures-salute:

I studied Feminism, from a political & societal point of view throughout 5 years of Uni and it makes me cringe when the term is misused improperly, by women and men alike.

 

[LadyLuna]

I feel that, one, you didn't actually ready my argument, and two, you're going off false facts.

I did read it, I just responded to a few things about it, not the whole thing. Which facts do you think are false?

About the men can't be raped thing, have you ever heard a feminists argument on that?

I never said feminists were saying that, but yes, I have heard that said from feminists. I simply put that up as a part of the rape culture that western civilization has.

Have you not heard of the most recent situation in which the two high school students convicted of rape were publicly given MORE SYMPATHY than the victim?

Nope, I haven't. I stopped following the news when I realized that a quarter of what they say is speculation presented as fact, and another quarter is outright lies presented as fact. That would be... high school? A couple years ago, I found out that people tend to believe the first thing they hear, whether it's true or not. Last year I found out that being presented with evidence against a belief tends to make people believe the false thing stronger. Thus, saying "___ has been accused of rape" sets in people's minds that he is a rapist, and trying to take it back later when it proves to be false leaves 70% of the people who believed he really did it shaking their heads at the tragedy of another rapist going free, even though he never was a rapist.

As a rape victim I was told, it's your word against his, and, you're a lying whore. Who suffered because of him being an accused rapist? Me, the victim. I lost friends and his friends (and my own) just became stronger supporters of him in that trying time.

I did not know you were raped. I am sorry for what happened to you. Yes, that is the other side. The tragedy of it is, in many communities, it's the person being accused whose life is ruined by it. In many other communities, it's the accuser whose life is ruined by it. Both are a damn shame. A rapists life being ruined is not good, but it is acceptable in my eyes. A person who was raped having their life ruined is never acceptable.

You and I do agree on many things. That a man can be raped. That a victim needs support. Probably agree that people who make false rape accusations are part of why your case was so hard. That does not make any of what I said any less true.

 

[JordanBlack]

I never said feminists were saying that, but yes, I have heard that said from feminists.

Labeling yourself a feminist doesn't actually make you one. That's the main problem in todays society, women who hate men usually are labeling themselves feminists in order to spread their non-sense and hatred without having to deal with the consequences. Feminist sounds much better than calling yourself a man hater.

It's the same as someone labeling themselves a "good christian" in order to justify their hatred for other religions or for atheists.

 

[Red7227]

honestly? about 90 odd percent of "men's rights" are more "father's rights". on pretty much every field except that one men are equal, or have an advantage (assuming we are speaking of legal footing and not just gender bias). there are a small handful of fields where men get the short stick, but oh well, they tend to be in ones that being male makes the job more difficult anyway.

One exclusion i find fascinating is a "rule" than unrelated men cannot sit next to unaccompanied children on aircraft. We had a article in the paper recently where a 30 something male pediatrician (with 2 kids) was asked to move because he was sitting next to two 10 year old boys. The Airline (Quantas) was asked to comment and they said that it was an international guideline established by airlines that had no basis in any legal requirement, they just thought that it was a good idea. That brought up a number of occasions when other men had been asked to move, (with the threat of being removed from the aircraft unless they complied). Personally I find this ridiculous. I know as many women as I do men who have no rapport whatsoever with children in general let alone 10 year old boys.

Exactly what one is supposed to do on the plane with said kids is another thing. I find myself completely uninterested in fondling the unformed genitalia of a 10 year old boy, and my carnel interest in girls only starts when they hit 30 or so.

 

[southsamurai]

just on the note red brought up, or sort of anyway. i have always had to be very very careful around kids. for some reason they flock to me. and i use the term literally. back when there were a passle full around the neighborhood and i would sit on the porch of an evenin i would have 10 or a dozen kids around me within 20 minutes. i've babysat probably 90 or so different kids over the years, and im considered extremely good at child care. but at the local elementary school they always had security on my tail as soon as i hit the building. why you ask was an adult male who has no kids of his own at an elementary school? because whenever anyone in my hood was sick or had an emergency it was me they called to get their kids. not grandparents, not aunts or uncles, me. weird as hell, but for some reason any kid from about 2 up til about 19 just seems to attach themselves to me very quickly.
if it was me on that airplane it would be a mess. i can just about picture me moving as requested, then the bloody kids following me around.
which is why im so damn careful. i always explain to the parents that i have rules. no kid ever ever ever comes into my house if im there alone. they arent allowed in unless the parent knows where they are. even in an emergency i would sit outside with them until their parents arrived. no way no how was i getting put in a bad position because some jealous ex or nosy neighbor decided to make assumptions.

and guess what? if i was a chick none of that would be even remotely thought about. no one would think it weird that kids make me happy. that i will protect them with my life. no one would blink that i would rather baby sit a kid all day than spend an hour talking to an adult. ok that might blink, but their assumption wouldnt be foul. oh well.

 

[Gen]

I never said feminists were saying that, but yes, I have heard that said from feminists.

Labeling yourself a feminist doesn't actually make you one. That's the main problem in todays society, women who hate men usually are labeling themselves feminists in order to spread their non-sense and hatred without having to deal with the consequences. Feminist sounds much better than calling yourself a man hater.

It's the same as someone labeling themselves a "good christian" in order to justify their hatred for other religions or for atheists.

I agree! This is the issue with feminism being such a vague, undefined term - when I say "I'm a feminist," I know what I mean, but whoever I say it to will interpret it based on their experiences with feminism/feminists. There are loads of feminists who I disagree with completely, but we're both under the same label. I mean, some feminists believe all sex work should be legalized and is empowering, while some believe it should all be abolished -- total polar opposites!

Like you said, a lot of people say "I'm a feminist" but I think that we can't fairly say "well a feminist, or some feminists, said this and that about an issue" because, aside from the "equal rights for women" idea, feminists really don't all agree on much.

 

[LadyLuna]

Fair enough.

My beef is not with the sorts of feminists I've heard on this forum. My beef is with feminists who believe that men are the root of all evil. And with the ones who believe that the patriarchy was created to shove women in the dirt while benefiting all men. (I do believe that patriarchy was created to push everyone in the dirt while benefiting the wealthy.) I have a problem with the women who refuse to let men into the women-only places while shouting that it's sexism to have men-only places.

I'm also fairly sure that women currently have the same opportunities that men do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the outcomes will be the same. For example, just because a 4' tall person can run a race with the 5' tall people, doesn't mean that as many 4' tall people will win races as 5' tall people.

 

[Gen]

I agree with a lot of that! The "men are evil, hate them all" feminists make me really angry because that attitude hurts the overall cause, and a lot of the causes I believe in. I think the best way to achieve equality is to work together - male allies to feminism (or male feminists/feminists who are men -- however you wanna word it!) are crucial to feminism's success, in my opinion. And I think a lot of the things that hurt women are also hurting men. For example, while as a woman I might be frustrated with the wage gap and not being taken seriously in the workplace, a man might be frustrated with the pressure on men to be the breadwinners or being looked down upon for taking a paternity leave. A lot of issues play off of each other, I guess.

What are the men's only places that some feminists are calling sexist? I guess it depends on what it is, to me. I think women's only support groups/forums/events can be really beneficial, and a lot of women feel safer there, which I think is important. If men feel they need that kind of space too, then I can't see why that'd be a problem. Most men's-only type of things I can think of are maybe gentlemen's clubs? But I feel like that's totally different than what I'm thinking of as a women's-only space.

Women definitely have many, many more opportunities than we used to, but there are still a lot of arenas where we don't. I guess it depends on your view as to why, and if it matters. I think if women are 4' and men are 5' and we're gonna race the same race, maybe we should do it in our heels.

 

[SexySteph]

Fair enough.

My beef is not with the sorts of feminists I've heard on this forum. My beef is with feminists who believe that men are the root of all evil. And with the ones who believe that the patriarchy was created to shove women in the dirt while benefiting all men. (I do believe that patriarchy was created to push everyone in the dirt while benefiting the wealthy.) I have a problem with the women who refuse to let men into the women-only places while shouting that it's sexism to have men-only places.

Women-only spaces? Such as...?? The only ones I can think of are battered women's shelters and from my experience with them they're not women only they're battered women and employees only. They're in secret locations, because too often boyfriends, husbands, the guys friends used to find these shelters and make the women return home or harass them. I'm sure you're going to say "But that's a stereotype, that men are dangerous!" but in this situation, it's far easier to disbar men from the shelter than to have the women collect pictures of men that are a threat to them, make the girls who work their memorize those faces and then allow all other men to come there. And, yes, they do have locations like that for men as well, but they're separate for the women's shelters because these women are often TERRIFIED of men because after their experience they're afraid that he is going to find them again. As far as I know, the only men-only spaces that are considered 'sexist' are the ones that are man-only for recreational reasons, which, is bullshit. "Oh man, this is no more fun, there's a woman here..."

I'm also fairly sure that women currently have the same opportunities that men do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the outcomes will be the same. For example, just because a 4' tall person can run a race with the 5' tall people, doesn't mean that as many 4' tall people will win races as 5' tall people.

Also, your metaphor is insulting, because it implies that women are the 4' tall persons and men are the 5', meaning that yes, women have the same opportunities as men but they don't get the same outcomes because they're not as capable as men.
I disagree. A better metaphor would be a race run with 5' tall people in t-shirts and 5' tall people in tanks but the people with tanks on get held back at the beginning while the t-shirt runners are allowed a lead. Or the tank runners have to run farther in the same amount of time to be considered a winner.
Men and women are EQUALLY capable of the same things.
And women don't have the same opportunities. Just look at how the break down of professors is at college. More women graduate from college, we also more women assistant professors than men but for some reason the ranks of full professors is PACKED with males. Even though for every 4 female APs there's one male. But the male's get the promotions. But, I guess the women have the same opportunities, they just wouldn't make as good full professors as the guys would, right?

 

[southsamurai]

Women-only spaces? Such as...??

here in the south (where men still have hold out places that are male only) the women only places i've run into is a pretty short list. gyms, spas, hair/aesthetics salons, tanning salons, exotic dancing revues with all male dancers, a few non-exotic dancing bars, one diet center, one reading/book meeting, one crafting class, and one cooking class (though that also had a male only class at a different time). ok maybe the list isnt as short after all.

imo nothing wrong with having space where either gender can mingle with others in a place free of the other. it can be very refreshing.

 

[krango]

The feminist movement works! Hooray for vaginas!

http://www.wlfi.com/dpp/news/crime/mom-who-deals-heroin-avoids-prison
http://www.wlfi.com/dpp/news/crime/meth-charges-bring-32-year-sentence

Everyone equates the feminist movement to the radical feminist who are the "man haters" and give all the women a bad name. Liberal feminist do good work towards equal rights such as voting and equal pay. I am all for common sense women's rights.

Since this is a cam girl forum why are there no cam men? You should petition MFC for equal employment rights for men on the website and not work in protest till they let men cam! While were making things equal and all you hard working ladies should be equal too. Lets pay all the cam girls the same rate since you all work so hard. All the tokens at the end of the month get divided equally and you ladies should be happy being equals right?

The biggest problem is men and women are inherently different and will never be the same, yet everyone is hell bent on making everything equal for some reason. There will always be winners and always be losers. Everyone wants to better themselves and someone will have to pay so you can get ahead. The Yin and the Yang.

All you lovely cam girls help this happen everyday. The men lose and the women win. Yes this is a little simplistic but it is the nature of the business. The men are more than happy to lose though since we love the women here.

Instead of settling for equality, we should strive to be better and make a better life for our self.

 

[NoelleBright]

Women-only spaces? Such as...??

here in the south (where men still have hold out places that are male only) the women only places i've run into is a pretty short list. gyms, spas, hair/aesthetics salons, tanning salons, exotic dancing revues with all male dancers, a few non-exotic dancing bars, one diet center, one reading/book meeting, one crafting class, and one cooking class (though that also had a male only class at a different time). ok maybe the list isnt as short after all.

imo nothing wrong with having space where either gender can mingle with others in a place free of the other. it can be very refreshing.

Wait. Are you telling me there's an actual "no men allowed" rule in these places? :shock:
I have never come across anything like this where I live.

 

[Gen]

I've seen women's only gyms...as for bars, the closest I've seen are lesbian bars, but that's a whole different topic. For some reason, there are a lot men's hair salons opening - not like barber shops, but like...come get a haircut and watch sports, its manly! Sadly they don't offer women's cuts or I'd like to go there

 

[southsamurai]

I'm also fairly sure that women currently have the same opportunities that men do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the outcomes will be the same. For example, just because a 4' tall person can run a race with the 5' tall people, doesn't mean that as many 4' tall people will win races as 5' tall people.

Also, your metaphor is insulting, because it implies that women are the 4' tall persons and men are the 5', meaning that yes, women have the same opportunities as men but they don't get the same outcomes because they're not as capable as men.
I disagree. A better metaphor would be a race run with 5' tall people in t-shirts and 5' tall people in tanks but the people with tanks on get held back at the beginning while the t-shirt runners are allowed a lead. Or the tank runners have to run farther in the same amount of time to be considered a winner.
Men and women are EQUALLY capable of the same things.
And women don't have the same opportunities. Just look at how the break down of professors is at college. More women graduate from college, we also more women assistant professors than men but for some reason the ranks of full professors is PACKED with males. Even though for every 4 female APs there's one male. But the male's get the promotions. But, I guess the women have the same opportunities, they just wouldn't make as good full professors as the guys would, right?

equally capable is somewhat.. i dunno.. generalized? in any given field of endeavor woman and men have capabilities that can make them equally useful. equally capable of success. but the skill sets probably are different. as an example: men in general have brains that have enhanced centers for spatial reasoning... or mentally manipulating dimensions in 3 dimensions. women score lower on average, and the highest percentile is lower than men's when testing that specific trait. so in a field where spatial reasoning is key like masonry for an instance then men will indeed perform better overall.
similarly, multi tasking is a skill that women out test men on to a similar percentile, so in tasks where that is key they will out perform. data processing is the job that comes to mind on that basis. being able to mentally balance several streams of data and merge them is essential for that job and therefore women will dominate in that field.

i believe that is the distinction luna was talking about, that there are differences between the genders that may give an inherent advantage in one thing or another. and in the case of a physical running race it would probably be males who finish first (depending on the individuals in the heat). i don't think it an insulting premise, nor do i feel that it should be construed that way

i dont mean to belittle or ignore the real intent of your post here miss steph. you are quite accurate that in a lot of fields there is still a huge disparity in promotion, pay, benefits and respect. professors being just one of many, business management is another biggie. the percentage difference for male vs female CEOs is still huge. lawyers given partnerships is another.
but, and this is a key but here, the time is long past when females are refused to even get the shot to achieve. the bias isnt nation wide, nor even industry wide in most cases. (the law enforcement old boy's club is a big exception to that) the bias seems to be slowly phasing out as younger men and women take over the reins of businesses, education etc... it will be another generation or two before t becomes a rare and unusual occurrence, but the trend is shifting towards equity at the top. i think that the root of the existing bias is that the previous generation always holds dominance at the top of a field until they are supplanted in some fashion, so old ways of thinking hold sway. given enough time and effort the smart folks will win out and the ignorance of thought that is the glass ceiling will go the way of the dinosaur.

 

[southsamurai]

Women-only spaces? Such as...??

here in the south (where men still have hold out places that are male only) the women only places i've run into is a pretty short list. gyms, spas, hair/aesthetics salons, tanning salons, exotic dancing revues with all male dancers, a few non-exotic dancing bars, one diet center, one reading/book meeting, one crafting class, and one cooking class (though that also had a male only class at a different time). ok maybe the list isnt as short after all.

imo nothing wrong with having space where either gender can mingle with others in a place free of the other. it can be very refreshing.

Wait. Are you telling me there's an actual "no men allowed" rule in these places? :shock:
I have never come across anything like this where I live.

yes maam. in the case of one of the gyms men cant even enter past the lobby, and no memberships are allowed. there is a spa up in the mountains of NC that will not accept bookings for men, and several others where you get put at the end of a looong waiting list that never seems to get to any males. i as far as the male dancers, the two in charlotte that have them wont even let a guy in the door at all (i tried one of them when my sis needed a pick up after too much drinking, and the other to drop off some money i owed to a friend who was one of the dancers). the others i have only been told about, but by people who were actual members or participants, so i tend to believe them