Don't We Have Things Backwards, or is it just me?

[Jupiter551]

Black Ops 2 just came out with a mature only rating. It made over $400 MILLION in sales over a 24 hour period. Fantasy violence and sex sells. That being said, it's ultimately up to the parent(s) how they raise their child. If they want violent electronics and salacious TV to raise their kids, that's what happens.

I've seen some of the kids interviewed that have endured the 2 week+ power outage from Sandy saying it's one of the best things that's happened to them because they have no access to electronic games and they're feeling healthier and all around happier without the games, closer to family, etc.

Before video games, kids used to run around with toy guns. Before guns they used to run around with sticks they pretended were swords. Video games aren't the problem, there might be more incidences of violence in society today - or they might be reported more reliably, or discovered more often - but there have always been murderers, rapists, child molesters: whether it's human nature, fucked up parenting, born "different" or whatever, the capacity for spiteful violence is as old as humanity.

 

[KikiPlumpAss]

art mirrors reality, reality doesn't mirror art.

 

[bob]

I think a lot of it stems from history.

We don't actually know how it use to be but it would seem that throughout history, sex and nudity has always been seen as taboo. Who knows how or when it started. Since then, through either culture and/or religion we have been tauught that sex and nudity is bad. Attitudes have been changing over time, we now live in a more open world towards sex but i would say there is still the majority against it.

i wonder about this....in the little bit of nudity and sex i've seen from "prehistory", i've never felt a taboo in it....rather it seems an acknowledgment of the sacred, or a celebration of passion.....giving credence to izzy's observation, imo

I think part of it is that a lot of people like nakedness to be special, like a treat, if we always saw people being naked it might lose some of its appeal. I think really it already has. People have different standards of what women especially should look like.

the very word taboo requires an acceptance of that idea that if you're gonna break the taboo, a certain amount of violence will be a part of it.....so it's virtually impossible for us to see incest, for example, as anything but the ruthless and/or manipulative use of domination and power....usually in the form of a man getting what he wants.

so we put taboos in place to protect us....at least that's the idea, imo.

in my musings however, i have to wonder how much monotheism played a part in our "backwardsness"....it's always struck me as a function of the male ego....the idea that there is one being around someplace to whom we are all accountable.....sort of like the first guy to collect a bunch of farmers together and build a wall to protect them, and set himself up as "mayor" :lol:

might raise your hackles some...but both Mohammed and Freud shared an understanding of the male psyche....and look where it's gotten us :whistle:

seriously.....the relaxation of sexual mores -the acceptance of the entryway to porn in the mainstream media- would only further serve to reinforce the idea that men need just as much sexual intimacy as women, that we can be just as vulnerable....and i believe that is percieved by many as undermining "masculinity"

which is, in itself, just another taboo

 

[camstory]

I have spent this afternoon on a 650 acre ranch picking apples and grooming horses. Leaving, the ribbon of road that stretched out in front of us dipped and weaved through gently rolling hills of Pine and Oak. A brilliant fading sunset painted the horizon in deep reds and orange, and, more than once silhouetted grazing dear, their stubby white tails flickering in the finishing daylight. It really made this quote poignant.

I also believe that nature is beautiful, whether it's a grove of trees, a placid pond or a naked human, and that people who live among beauty may indeed take if for granted, but they may also be less violent because beauty is like a hit of weed; it calms the soul.

It had been too long since I had been out. If you have not been in nature in some time, do it soon, it will be time well spent.

I dunno, there's been a couple generations, mine included that grew up with video games and gory movies. Everything from Marilyn Manson to Call of Duty gets blamed when something like the Columbine shooting happens - how come no one's blaming war, or the news

I don't like the blame game. It's inaccurate and solves nothing. I personally feel the video games, M.Manson, gory movies, etc. are reflections of our society. Popular culture is the spawn of the environment from which it springs. Therefor it would figure that war and the news are just as responsible for the violence in our midst as anything, if not more.

I agree historically sex and public nudity are considered taboo. If you look at the hundreds of civilization that have sprung up over the last several millennium, you can count on the finger and toes the number where nudity wasn't a crime/taboo. Egypt, Greece, a few Polynesia society, some Native American tribes, and some primitive tribes in New Guinea and South America. The bath practices of Roman and Japanese were accepting of public nudityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nudity but I'd argue that is a function of hygiene more than anything else. Even among South Pacific societies where the weather permits people to not wear clothes, it was the exception not the rule. These society were pretty isolated from each other and completely isolated from the world major religions, until the 18th century and still the cultural norms were you wore clothes that covered the genital areas and sex is done in private.

While I personally, am happy to see society become less uptight about nudity. I think is is worth noting that fastest growing religion in the world Islam, has very strict rules about immodest dress and at least part of the rise in the number of Muslims is a backlash against western media being filled with images of naked and half naked woman (e.g. Brittany, Shakira , and yes camgirls etc.). So while I think that a more relaxed view of nudity is a good thing and probably a sign of an evolving culture, you do have to ask yourself were all of the previous societies really wrong to make it a nudity and public sex taboo?

I don't dispute your facts that there have been very few peoples throughout history that have not made nudity/sex taboo. I don't think that is a very good reason to suggest it is correct though. Just because something has been very common among human cultures throughout history is a crazy reason to think it must be right, all by its self. We are very much still hairless apes. Nudity and sex being taboo, I would suggest has mostly to do with our primal nature. It has to do with man's jealousies, insecurities, and possessive nature. (We don't want our bitch running around naked so she can pop off behind a tree and get banged by some other bloke.) The fact that these taboos have shown up in different places and with totally separated populations makes all the sense in the world. It is our primal human nature. We need to try to work past those primal human natures when we can, if we see they are wrong headed. Not excuse them because that is how it has always been.
Or that's what makes sense to me anyway.

 

[Jupiter551]

Part of the issue is that cultures (esp recent ones) have mixed nudity and sex up together as one taboo.

There's no reason to associate nudity with sex. None. Being nude makes inconsequential difference to the ability to have sex - unless you're all wearing chastity belts anyway. You don't even have to be nude to HAVE sex, obviously. Nudity is a human's natural state, clothes were developed to address climate and protection issues.

Why do most cultures have a taboo about rampant sex? Well there are some evolutionary arguments that would provide an explanation. For example, the tendency toward monogamy and even the propensity for male jealousy, can be explained as successful mechanisms for passing on one's genes. Basically, the guys who didn't want their woman sleeping around were more likely NOT to end up raising someone else's kid in place of their own.

This is somewhat academic now because obviously we have contraception, and DNA tests, but for millions of years the males and females that survived to pass on their genes - then successfully raise that vulnerable child in a hostile world -to repeat the cycle and make us who we are today, are the ones who DIDN'T end up raising someone else's kid and becoming a genetic dead-end.

 

[Red7227]

i wonder about this....in the little bit of nudity and sex i've seen from "prehistory", i've never felt a taboo in it....rather it seems an acknowledgment of the sacred, or a celebration of passion.....giving credence to izzy's observation, imo

The Rules have always been lest strict, or at least different, for women.

2nd C Kushan

This is a drunken courtesan who is wearing somewhat less than the boys

14th BC Minoan which was copied by the peloponnesians and remained in fashion for another 500 years. Boobs out must have been fucking cold.

New kingdom Egypt (where you can see the differences for the lighter skinned Egyptians and the darker skinned Nubians. At the time the Nubians ran around butt naked, while the Egyptians had the other 3 fashions. Opaque clothes, transparent clothes and opaque clothes with the right breast exposed. Even more fashions existed, but this is really just supporting your point that showing skin and girly bits was as much a fashion then as now.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I'm also wondering what culture you're speaking about. In England I'm happy the way things are. We don't have a big crazed religious movement telling everyone evolution is bullshit and trying to stop schools teaching kids about sex. We get taught about sex, all kinds, we get taught how to use a condom and what oral sex is.

Essentially I've seen mentioned a couple of times things that imply you'd be seeing nice looking people. Well no, if you want nakedness you're also going to have to look at naked obese, sweaty men, and naked 80 year olds, and generally very unattractive people. These people are actually the norm, I mean you think about camgirls, most camgirls are in an age range of 10 years and even those that some think are less attractive cam girls, are still good looking for real life, people on tv too, aren't the norm.
Also people keep saying you can separate sex from nakedness. Well why? Personally I love the way my heart beats faster when someone I like see's me naked for the first time and I see him. I don't want to see everyone naked. And I love being naked and am very relaxed about nakedness. I've met guys who work in strip clubs behind the bars etc, and they no longer find a naked woman sexual in the same way. I personally don't want that. I already don't find pictures/videos of nakedness as sexual as I once did, and I rarely watch porn. I like sexuality being associated with nakedness. I enjoy that part!

 

[Jupiter551]

I'm also wondering what culture you're speaking about. In England I'm happy the way things are. We don't have a big crazed religious movement telling everyone evolution is bullshit and trying to stop schools teaching kids about sex. We get taught about sex, all kinds, we get taught how to use a condom and what oral sex is.

Essentially I've seen mentioned a couple of times things that imply you'd be seeing nice looking people. Well no, if you want nakedness you're also going to have to look at naked obese, sweaty men, and naked 80 year olds, and generally very unattractive people. These people are actually the norm, I mean you think about camgirls, most camgirls are in an age range of 10 years and even those that some think are less attractive cam girls, are still good looking for real life, people on tv too, aren't the norm.
Also people keep saying you can separate sex from nakedness. Well why? Personally I love the way my heart beats faster when someone I like see's me naked for the first time and I see him. I don't want to see everyone naked. And I love being naked and am very relaxed about nakedness. I've met guys who work in strip clubs behind the bars etc, and they no longer find a naked woman sexual in the same way. I personally don't want that. I already don't find pictures/videos of nakedness as sexual as I once did, and I rarely watch porn. I like sexuality being associated with nakedness. I enjoy that part!

Yeah and there's nothing wrong with being aroused at the sight of someone you're attracted to, naked. It's the attitude that sex and sexuality, and by extension nakedness, is shameful that all sorts of social and psychological issues come about.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I've grown up in a world where those feelings aren't deemed as shameful, I don't talk about it with my parents or anything, but I talk about sex etc lots with friends. I remember in school there were some people when they were younger who thought it was shameful etc, but that was because they were young, they grew out of it.

 

[lordmagellan]

I've grown up in a world where those feelings aren't deemed as shameful, I don't talk about it with my parents or anything, but I talk about sex etc lots with friends. I remember in school there were some people when they were younger who thought it was shameful etc, but that was because they were young, they grew out of it.

Here in America, nudity is something to be scorned. Even too much cleavage on a woman is interpreted as her being "slutty." I go through this with my wife all the time: she's been conditioned to think that her glorious tits are something to be ashamed of in general public. I blame her mother (go figure) as she will make snide remarks about how short a skirt is or how low a top is, etc.

This also gets into rape psychology with victim blaming: "She asked for it, wearing that top." And I've seen that cited as a reason behind the censorship of female nudity- "it will cause men to rape" - which is one of the most insultingly silly ideas I've heard. The same argument has been used to block strip-clubs from opening in places.

Personally, I support the idea of everyone being naked and being unashamed of it. Yea, you have to take the good with the bad, you may see some bodies which don't fit your perception of ideal, but you can deal with that- you're on the internet where we are assaulted daily, hourly, minutely with thoughts and arguments that don't fit our ideals- it's what makes the world a wonderful place. But then, I surround myself with nudity, both ideal and not so much. I remember visiting a nude resort and I was kind of surprised to find that when everyone is naked, everyone looks each other in the eye just a little more. And those people with the "less than ideal bodies?" they were some of the friendliest I've ever met.

I remember my first real encounter with nude censorship. I was in high school, senior year, I believe, and I saw my art teacher taking a marker to a stack of art history books. I watched in awe as she took a paint marker and drew "bikinis" on the paintings in the book- historical, classical paintings, reflections of cultural history and celebrations of the human form. I was on good terms so I asked, "What the hell are you doing?!" She informed me that she had been ordered to cover all the nudity appearing in the books so the young up and coming classes wouldn't be exposed to it. I was aghast. Even at that young age, where one doesn't know shit but thinks he knows it all, I recognized how destructive this could be to a generation's psyche. It was teaching kids to be ashamed of, not only their bodies, but of their sexuality. So I asked her whose idea was this and are they stupid. She laughed. And she agreed with me.

Violence is. Humans love a good blood sport. And when that's tossed in with sex, all the better (in some opinions). We're naturally attracted to it because our first instinct is to survive. I personally have no real issue with violence being portrayed, but I do agree that it should be less celebrated, or at least presented differently. I think the real damage, if any, that stems from violence in entertainment isn't from the act itself, but from a lack of empathy associated with it. Big bad tough guy heroes never regret their decision to shoot the bad guy. They rack body counts in the double digits and higher, then go get a beer and fuck the hottest thing in the bar. They are the manliest of men who don't have time to question whether or not things could have been handled differently. They have to find the nukes so the torture was necessary- who cares that torture rarely, if ever, works?

But who wants to watch a movie where the hero questions his decision? He has to be decisive. We want it simple: bad guy loses, good guy wins.

There's too much psychology at play for me to continue. I have chores to do and don't have time to write this novel.

 

[Rose]

I thought this was an interesting topic so I posted about it where my family and some close friends could respond. Not surprisingly everyone but my parents liked the topic.

The responses I got where as follows:
"I'd rather see a naked 80 year old man in the street scratching his balls than watch someone get murdered." (This was said by a man we'll call my friendly drunk uncle, he grew up with my parents and is very "worldly".)
"Naked old men and women are much easier to look at than violence and death." (Said by a friend in the military)
"Can I vote that I prefer just nudity (no sex) to violence too?" (Said by another military friend)
"My kids are allowed to see nudity but I don't let them watch violent movies." (Said by a paternal aunt with 3 daughters)
"Death and violence bother me." (Said by a longtime friend)
"What's wrong with being naked? Granted you aren't having sex in the streets it seems a lot less detrimental to children than graphic violence. I'd rather stick with nudity myself." (Said by one of my parents' college buddies that lives near me)
"I see nothing wrong with nudity. I see everything wrong with violence and murder. Just show me naked people and I'll have less nightmares." (Said by friend from school)

My parents' responses: "nudity is the worst thing in the world, it's worse to show a child nudity than violence." "If you posted this because you want to become a nudist, we're not coming to visit anymore and you aren't allowed to visit either." Funny enough, my maternal grandfather disagreed with both these statements and said while he isn't ok with public nudity, he said it's easier to explain and ignore than graphic violence. :lol: I'm guessing my mom got a lecture that night about her having 'wrong' opinions.

 

[Jupiter551]

My parents' responses: "nudity is the worst thing in the world, it's worse to show a child nudity than violence." "If you posted this because you want to become a nudist, we're not coming to visit anymore and you aren't allowed to visit either." Funny enough, my maternal grandfather disagreed with both these statements and said while he isn't ok with public nudity, he said it's easier to explain and ignore than graphic violence. :lol: I'm guessing my mom got a lecture that night about her having 'wrong' opinions.

hahah you should invite them to dinner and both be nude :lol:

 

[Rose]

My parents' responses: "nudity is the worst thing in the world, it's worse to show a child nudity than violence." "If you posted this because you want to become a nudist, we're not coming to visit anymore and you aren't allowed to visit either." Funny enough, my maternal grandfather disagreed with both these statements and said while he isn't ok with public nudity, he said it's easier to explain and ignore than graphic violence. :lol: I'm guessing my mom got a lecture that night about her having 'wrong' opinions.

hahah you should invite them to dinner and both be nude :lol:

I'll pass, Mom is already handsy with the quickly expanding belly. For some reason getting pregnant means my mother feels the need to pat my belly every time she sees me. Nudity would just make that doubly uncomfortable. :?

 

[Lacey Black]

We don't have a big crazed religious movement telling everyone evolution is bullshit and trying to stop schools teaching kids about sex.

Thats it!! im moving to the UK. :lol:

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I don't dispute your facts that there have been very few peoples throughout history that have not made nudity/sex taboo. I don't think that is a very good reason to suggest it is correct though. Just because something has been very common among human cultures throughout history is a crazy reason to think it must be right, all by its self. We are very much still hairless apes. Nudity and sex being taboo, I would suggest has mostly to do with our primal nature. It has to do with man's jealousies, insecurities, and possessive nature. (We don't want our bitch running around naked so she can pop off behind a tree and get banged by some other bloke.) The fact that these taboos have shown up in different places and with totally separated populations makes all the sense in the world. It is our primal human nature. We need to try to work past those primal human natures when we can, if we see they are wrong headed. Not excuse them because that is how it has always been.
Or that's what makes sense to me anyway.

Just to be clear I am not saying the old ways must be correct, just that they maybe right. Part of me really hopes you are correct and we'd be better off if nudity was no big deal and we should celebrate the human body; get rid of all laws that restrict nudity and move beyond our primal nature. But another part of me, fears the consequence of trying change our human nature. I'll go a bit further and suggest that before we abandon 4,000 years of human history and say the nudity is good, lets make damn sure that it really is. To be honest I have my doubts.

Part of the issue is that cultures (esp recent ones) have mixed nudity and sex up together as one taboo.

There's no reason to associate nudity with sex. None. Being nude makes inconsequential difference to the ability to have sex - unless you're all wearing chastity belts anyway. You don't even have to be nude to HAVE sex, obviously. Nudity is a human's natural state, clothes were developed to address climate and protection issues.

I really disagree, I think men are culturally (and probably biologically) conditioned to respond to a naked woman. That is why the one common area that is clothed in pretty much all societies is the genitals. Even in societies were it is standard for children to run around nude, when the kids hit puberty those dicks and pussies get covered only to be revealed on special occasions. The one common thing you see in art around the world, is lots of pictures of woman and plenty of them in various stages of undress. We should not misinterpret the amount of nudity in art as meaning that this was culturally acceptable. The nature of art is to be provocative and push cultural boundaries. I don't think it is exaggeration to say that most guys through out history are pretty obsessed about seeing naked chicks and naked chicks lead to boners.

So what's wrong with boners? nothing in moderation. Let's face it, MFC and most models on the forum, would be pretty poor if guys acted rationally when they were hard, but we don't. Guys do enough crazy shit normally, that societies are better off if we don't encourage them to think with their dicks. I've heard that a nudist lifestyle means that you become so use to naked woman that you don't react, but I really have my doubts, and I think is mostly a BS line that guys tell girls to get them to take off their clothes . While it is true that not every guy gets hard for every naked girl I bet there are hell of lot more boners at nudist colony than being out and about in Saudi Arabia.

I've seen a lot of article pointing out the potential dangers of the excessive nudity and sexualization we see now compared to the late 20th century. Now how many of these article are based on good scientific studies vs pure commercial reason, i.e. sex sells, I don't know. Writing about sex is great way of selling magazines or getting web readers, doing real research on sex is tough.

The main arguments against a more relaxed view of nudity are: porn addiction, unrealistic expectation by guys, and something that Isabella touch on which is the special feeling of seeing someone you care about naked. In the pre internet day it was hard to become a porn addict, cause outside of Playboy and Penthouse, you had to actively search out porn. Now days once you click on a few banners and give a porn site your credit card, porn will find you and there is an unlimited supply so getting hooked is easy. I have read that 20 something guys, having watched so much porn, now expect every girl to have porn star moves. Their girlfriends will happily do DP, three somes and love facials. Now on a forum of camgirls this probably isn't an issue, but I would be curious if you talk to your girlfriends with no link to adult entertainment if they think this is a real problem or a made up one.

Personally I love the way my heart beats faster when someone I like see's me naked for the first time and I see him. I don't want to see everyone naked.

If everyone is naked their is no mystery. I think it is also unfair to member's significant other, that almost none of them look nearly as good as any Miss MFC top 100 model. I know my reaction to seeing a girl I am dating naked for the first time is not damn this is most beautiful girl in the world but rather pretty good for 40 year old, cause I've now have tens of thousand of comparisons in my brain.

Finally, I am skeptical of our ability to change our primal instincts. Sure jealous and a possessive nature are bad traits, and having less them is a good thing. But they are human traits, and when I look at attempts to make people less jealous and less possessive through social engineer the results are not promising. Best case, I see nice harmless communes, or the Amish, hippie colonies and worse case crazy cult were lots of people die. Finally I think of the catastrophic fuck up call communism, which in its attempt to eliminate greed, jealous and ownership, created massive misery.

tl;dr Maybe the old folks are right and keeping our clothes on is generally a good idea.

 

[TashaDutch]

Just because something has been very common among human cultures throughout history is a crazy reason to think it must be right, all by its self. We are very much still hairless apes.

i had to quote this... because i think it's the most brilliant quote i read in months! this is exactly how i feel about sooo many things.. not just nudity and violence

 

[Jupiter551]

That is why the one common area that is clothed in pretty much all societies is the genitals. Even in societies were it is standard for children to run around nude, when the kids hit puberty those dicks and pussies get covered only to be revealed on special occasions.

Whether nudity is associated with sex or not, genitals are one of the most sensitive and vulnerable areas which is why we evolved with pubic hair. The idea of covering genitals, as far back as the earliest humans would have been foremost for protection, not modesty. It is a very strangely western and recent idea that most people had enough privacy to dress or bathe without others around. Most people lived in one-room dwellings, bathed in the local lake or shared bathwater, and had to endure the sounds of extended family having sex late at night.

The one common thing you see in art around the world, is lots of pictures of woman and plenty of them in various stages of undress. We should not misinterpret the amount of nudity in art as meaning that this was culturally acceptable. The nature of art is to be provocative and push cultural boundaries.

Wow. Stating the 'nature of art' for even one society is a bold move, claiming the nature of ALL art is to be provocative and push cultural boundaries is just blatantly wrong. What about religious art? What about art celebrating a successful hunt or a great victory? What about scenes of nature, or carved sea-serpents decorating the prow and hull of a viking longboat?
To suggest that the common depictions of nudity in classicly inspired western art is about pushing boundaries or being provocative is just ridiculous. They were an attempt at reviving classical Greek figures and sculpture, homages to the human form.

Obviously in scenes depicting mythical situations the nudity is for artistic sake, but to then conclude that say Van Gogh painting topless polynesian women going about their daily lives was just done because he was horny, and in actuality they all walked around in the tropical sun fully clothed... lol seriously?

How about explorers and historians who wrote about such things?

 

[camstory]

I like how it is now. Sex is taboo, which is good for business, and violence is popular, which is great because not only do I love it, but violence censorship in America is ALMOST gone (the US censored A Serbian Film because they can't tell the difference between a real baby and an obviously fake babydoll....oi.) For me, personally, it's the perfect combination.

I had a hard time thanking this ^^^^^^ VC, and I wonder if you are really good with the prevailing attitude and censorship of all things sexual, and nudity to a great extent? I mean I understand it is good for business, but on a personal level doesn't it feel a bit insulting that most ppl would publicly frown on, or outright denounce what you do for a living as something unhealthy, or even dangerous to society? I don't think most ppl truly feel that way, but that many do, and most would be compelled to say they did is what is unhealthy, and endangers a society to remain un-enlightened.

I'll try to keep the Word Count down, but I want to say a couple of things.

First, after returning to see the sort of response the OP got, I felt like the dumb monkey with the typewriter who got lucky enough to hammer out something worthy. As I went through the replies my response was, "Yes, Yes, Exactly", to most of them. I am so glad that I'm not alone on this, because it has bothered me for a long time. When I have tried to point out to others that something as lovely as the human form, and sexuality are so shunned that even conversation of it is uncomfortable to most ppl, while the public demand for things like the story of seal team 6, and the assassination of Bin Ladin are so great that there are currently 5or6 books being written, their response has been to uncomfortable change the subject.

I also should be a little more clear about how I feel about open unrestricted public nudity. I think it should be just that, unrestricted, and unstigmatized. That's not to say that I think it would be a good thing if everyone went out tomorrow butt naked. Besides being impractical, I think the game looses a bit of its mystique when all the cards are face up.

My objections are not with the restrictions and censorship of nudity and sex themselves, or the lack of such in relation to graphic violence. My concerns are with the attitude, with the mindset that facilitates these. To me it seems so clear just thinking of how these two different concepts lay on the spirit. On one hand, the naked body, physical love, and passion, - On the other hand the international act of causing injury, or death to another living thing. I feel nothing bad, or stressful, or disgraceful about the former, and feel all those things about the latter.

Does that mean I think all laws, restrictions, and censorship on nudity and sex should be lifted? No, I think eventually they should just go away because a healthy society will have no reason for such silly shit. That does not necessarily mean that running around butt naked will not be considered unfashionable, or crass. But not doing something because it is not something a healthy well adjusted person cares to do, is much different than not doing it because it is a shameful thing that everyone is made to feel uncomfortable about identifying with, or because it is restricted for those reasons.

Do I think the glorification and commercialization of graphic violence should be more restricted and regulated than it now is? No, again it is about attitude and a healthy understanding of what it is we subject our spirit to. I would hope we might eventually reach a place where there no longer is any profit in violence, because there is no longer any taste for it. I think I have a better chance of selling the previous paragraph than this one, but really I feel no less passionate in my belief that the stimulation provided by violence for violence sake is a vile thing, than I feel the stimulation of physical love, the naked form, and passion of sex is a wholesome thing.

So ideally what I think we may get to 100 or 200 or 500 years from now, is a healthy attitude where sex, sexuality, and the naked human are not shameful ideas only to be acknowledged in dark private places. I believe that part of that healthy attitude will be a greater respect for human life, and for the violence that is so much a part of our everyday world that we give very little thought to in this day and age. I think we may come to understand it as the cholesterol that over time hardens our collective spirits.

 

[bob]

Do I think the glorification and commercialization of graphic violence should be more restricted and regulated than it now is? No, again it is about attitude and a healthy understanding of what it is we subject our spirit to. I would hope we might eventually reach a place where there no longer is any profit in violence, because there is no longer any taste for it. I think I have a better chance of selling the previous paragraph than this one, but really I feel no less passionate in my belief that the stimulation provided by violence for violence sake is a vile thing, than I feel the stimulation of physical love, the naked form, and passion of sex is a wholesome thing.

yep....violence seems so much easier to "endorse" as an acceptable cultural component because it's really pretty simple to separate ourselves from each other....create the classic we/them distinction that gives violence permission....human nudity and sexuality is one of those things that -taken on almost any level- challenges the motives for that separation, imo.

 

[HarmlessSquirrel]

'Initially, I was going to skip this topic because I felt it was "low-hanging fruit," i.e., obvious and not really needing debate. Yes, of course the message that violence is more acceptable than sex is a bad one. I still think that's obvious.

So what's wrong with boners? nothing in moderation. Let's face it, MFC and most models on the forum, would be pretty poor if guys acted rationally when they were hard, but we don't. Guys do enough crazy shit normally, that societies are better off if we don't encourage them to think with their dicks. I've heard that a nudist lifestyle means that you become so use to naked woman that you don't react, but I really have my doubts, and I think is mostly a BS line that guys tell girls to get them to take off their clothes . While it is true that not every guy gets hard for every naked girl I bet there are hell of lot more boners at nudist colony than being out and about in Saudi Arabia.

This particularly caught my eye. I can't disagree with this more. It's ridiculous to suggest men can't think rationally with erections. If this were true, we'd have to lock up every teenage boy in the world and not let them go until they're middle aged or older. Do men notice naked women and take interest in them? Yep. Do they get aroused? Sometimes. Surely I don't have to point out that young guys sometimes get hard for no reason at all too. You can be aroused without being a raving lunatic though. Claims at not being in one's right mind because of nudity are just lame excuses for bad behavior. Furthermore, what do we see in places that require women to remain completely covered? Do they have less violence and more rational behavior? No, often it's quite the opposite.

The main arguments against a more relaxed view of nudity are: porn addiction, unrealistic expectation by guys, and something that Isabella touch on which is the special feeling of seeing someone you care about naked. In the pre internet day it was hard to become a porn addict, cause outside of Playboy and Penthouse, you had to actively search out porn. Now days once you click on a few banners and give a porn site your credit card, porn will find you and there is an unlimited supply so getting hooked is easy. I have read that 20 something guys, having watched so much porn, now expect every girl to have porn star moves. Their girlfriends will happily do DP, three somes and love facials. Now on a forum of camgirls this probably isn't an issue, but I would be curious if you talk to your girlfriends with no link to adult entertainment if they think this is a real problem or a made up one.

As has been said earlier in the thread, nudity and sex are not the same thing, but I'll disregard that for the moment. A major reason why porn can be addictive and create unrealistic expectations is because sex and nudity are not commonly seen elsewhere, thereby making porn the primary source for stimulation and information about sex and nudity. If public nudity was more common, everyone would know what "regular" people look like, and it wouldn't be expected that everyone looks like the beautiful people who get paid to be naked. If sex was discussed and taught more freely, there would be more understanding of it and less expectation that everyone does things just the way you see in porn.

 

[bob]

If everyone is naked their is no mystery

i understand your point, particularly wrt the fact that most guys really are visually oriented......still....i disagree with the lack of mystery part.
we have five senses.....and each of mine appreciates the mystery of woman's body.

Finally, I am skeptical of our ability to change our primal instincts. Sure jealous and a possessive nature are bad traits, and having less them is a good thing. But they are human traits, and when I look at attempts to make people less jealous and less possessive through social engineer the results are not promising. Best case, I see nice harmless communes, or the Amish, hippie colonies and worse case crazy cult were lots of people die.

this is an excellent point....while i've read about the "where lots of people die" part of "communes"....my experience with them vis a vis sexual intimacy/jealous/the stuff of "primal instincts" is that they require a level of honesty that turns the we/them separation of violence into it's very own mystery.....one that scares most people back into the shadows of taboo.

 

[camstory]

this is an excellent point....while i've read about the "where lots of people die" part of "communes"....my experience with them vis a vis sexual intimacy/jealous/the stuff of "primal instincts" is that they require a level of honesty that turns the we/them separation of violence into it's very own mystery.....one that scares most people back into the shadows of taboo.

I love the way you write, you very often point out for me those simple truths that I don't always see, and then am amazed that I didn't, and I reckon I feel about 80% of what you express is spot on. I think that # might be close to a 100% if it wasn't for the 20% I don't understand.

I think I get it a little bit, but if I'm right, you're suggesting that because most ppl are not up to the level of honesty that is required to deal with their understanding of violence then it is best to avoid the question altogether? (But I'm pretty sure that isn't exactly right)

The question of honesty is a key one though IMO. Maybe the most important question in this discussion, or for that matter, almost every question that us humans face as a whole. I don't mean the George Washington honesty, I mean our ability to be honest with ourselves. I really think we might become an evolved ppl if we could tune in a little better to our own honesty. I'm not sure why that seems so hard for so many ppl, myself included at times. I think the ego has a lot to do with it, bc often I find that when I am completely honest with myself there are things I discover about me, that the ego would rather deny.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

I have a few different opinions on this subject.
I like the fact that nudity is taboo because cam models wouldn't make money if it wasn't.
I don't think it's fair to have violence on tv, but not nudity.
I wouldn't want my children watching violence nor would I want them looking at nudity that is intended to be sexual. I would monitor their TV watching, but unfortunately, most parents don't. So having sex and violence on tv, IMO, is harmful because so many parents are not active enough in their children's lives.

 

[Jupiter551]

this is an excellent point....while i've read about the "where lots of people die" part of "communes"....my experience with them vis a vis sexual intimacy/jealous/the stuff of "primal instincts" is that they require a level of honesty that turns the we/them separation of violence into it's very own mystery.....one that scares most people back into the shadows of taboo.

Well jealousy is only an undesirable trait when you divorce sex from its original context - reproduction. From the point of view of animals competing to have their genes perpetuated (the primal driving force of all animals), jealousy has probably been a quite successful trait which is why it's one that has persisted.

It's fine to say we 'shouldn't be jealous' or that we can overcome such urges (or to say that we can't) but let's understand it in context rather than just from our (very) limited cultural perception as 21st century homo sapiens.

 

[DudeExtreme]

I have a few different opinions on this subject.
I like the fact that nudity is taboo because cam models wouldn't make money if it wasn't.
I don't think it's fair to have violence on tv, but not nudity.
I wouldn't want my children watching violence nor would I want them looking at nudity that is intended to be sexual. I would monitor their TV watching, but unfortunately, most parents don't. So having sex and violence on tv, IMO, is harmful because so many parents are not active enough in their children's lives.

I agreed with you. The TV has become the baby sister for too many children.

 

[Red7227]

Just to be clear I am not saying the old ways must be correct, just that they maybe right. Part of me really hopes you are correct and we'd be better off if nudity was no big deal and we should celebrate the human body; get rid of all laws that restrict nudity and move beyond our primal nature. But another part of me, fears the consequence of trying change our human nature. I'll go a bit further and suggest that before we abandon 4,000 years of human history and say the nudity is good, lets make damn sure that it really is. To be honest I have my doubts.

Nudity involves a serious lack of pockets, sunburn and the potential for skid marks on public seating. I don't particularly have a thing for nudity one way or another, and don't see it as a significant issue. What I would like is the freedom of expression and a movement away from the view that women who expose skin are asking for it. There was a 14 yo girl shot by the Taliban in Pakistan recently for speaking out in favour of education for women. That is the attitude that needs changing.

I agreed with you. The TV has become the baby sister for too many children.

Computer games are much better than TV for child minding, as they are interactive, but human interaction is much better than either.

 

[BlueViolet]

I wouldn't want my children watching violence nor would I want them looking at nudity that is intended to be sexual. I would monitor their TV watching, but unfortunately, most parents don't. So having sex and violence on tv, IMO, is harmful because so many parents are not active enough in their children's lives.

I don't have cable now and I certainly don't intend to have cable when I have kids, not just for the violence and sex part but for the mind-numbing affect of it.

 

[camstory]

I have a few different opinions on this subject.
I like the fact that nudity is taboo because cam models wouldn't make money if it wasn't.

I'm not so sure this is right. I not so it isn't ether, but I can imagine a more relaxed and less taboo attitude about sex and nudity actually being more conducive to paying cam site users. I wonder what % of MFC freeloaders who now don't dare use their cc to buy tokens might end up spending a couple hours a week with their wife/gf , spending a few tokens if things were not so taboo?

 

[bob]

I think I get it a little bit, but if I'm right, you're suggesting that because most ppl are not up to the level of honesty that is required to deal with their understanding of violence then it is best to avoid the question altogether? (But I'm pretty sure that isn't exactly right)

seems to me any topic/conversation that attempts to relate two seeming disparate parts of our natures are vital to the attempt to define ourselves, cam....collectively or individually.....it is akin to the interrelationships that the science of ecology seeks to describe in order to make the politics of environmental sustainability a consideration for our survival....and i write the way i do because i'm an indian who doesn't want one the white man's gun, but is content to ride around the circled wagons of our convictions, wondering what the hell we're all out here in the middle of nowhere and not smoking something.

which is all meant to say that there is an undeniable connection between human intimacy and human violence....in the cheesy, aquarian age sense, it is captured by the difference between "i/thou" and "we/them".....intimacy is maybe the autonomous nervous system, providing senses to experience each other, and violence one system of involuntary response to the information those senses gather....a society like ours then, that seems almost to celebrate violence, perhaps suffers from a kind of sensual deprivation where intimacy is concerned.....i'd make an arguement for the global implications of that statement, but i've only got 60000 characters :lol:

still -regardless of it's roots or it's manifestations- the primal urge of violence is always protection, imo....and if we have successfully captured that urge in a game or a movie or the attitudes of language, etc, then it strikes me that the question becomes "what is the end result of satisfying that urge?"

to me, we have to look across the aisle at intimacy for an answer, not because it's a better place to look, but because -just like joy having little meaning without sadness- violence has little meaning without intimacy, imo

and that's what my whole commune comment was about....our biological "roles" cannot be denied, but it is our ability to explore beyond their boundaries which make this topic of yours important....and yeah: honesty is the cornerstone

 

[camstory]

I wouldn't want my children watching violence nor would I want them looking at nudity that is intended to be sexual. I would monitor their TV watching, but unfortunately, most parents don't. So having sex and violence on tv, IMO, is harmful because so many parents are not active enough in their children's lives.

I agree completely that most parents aren't, and often can't be as active as would be ideal in their children's lives. And I would not want to subject my child to porno, but mostly bc it would bore them to death, and the questions it did raise would be ones that no answer could yet be in context for them. ( It's silly, but if faced with having to put my child in front of 2 hours of porn or 2 hours of graphic violence, well popular or not my answer would be without question the porn) and of course I am being extreme, no sane person would wish to expose their child to anything they were not ready to understand.

That said, I would have no problem with, nor do I think it would be damaging, for my 6,8,or10 year old to see the very tasteful pic that is now your avatar. I see it as quite sexually arousing, but that is not how my 8 year old is going to see it. (And in truth I believe a child that is not sheltered from such nudity in their pre adolescent years is likely going to have a more healthy understanding of sexuality when it becomes a factor, or a better place to start from.)

Proofing this ^^^^^^ I see that I should clarify that the porn I had in mind was anything but hard core, and nothing that in any sense blurs the line of intimacy and violence. And again it is a silly construct but having spent the time to poke it out on this 9 inch tablet I am going to post it, which is a silly excuse.