Do you believe that rape culture is real?

[AudriTwo]

I definitely agree about not having squeaky clean characters. (Only kind of related but I liked this article about how many superheroes geared towards girls are boring af in their attempt to be good role models: http://comicsalliance.com/female-heroes-good-girl-role-models/)

Anyway I do agree about parents and kids though I think it's becoming easier and easier for kids to access things beyond what they can easily decipher, without their parents knowing. I am 100% opposed to censoring media because kids might see it, there should be stuff made for adults - but I do think it's inevitable that kids will see stuff that can influence them, and even just knowing that reality and fantasy are different it can still impact them. It's like knowing ads are Photoshopped; even though we know this, the imagery is still impactful and influential.

But I do think it's important to look at repetition, like he was saying - so many roguish men taking what they want from women who say no but mean yes. Even if we take an essentialist perspective and believe that's just the nature of men and women, it's still reinforcing that and showing this relationship dynamic without any of the "ew what the fuck don't touch me" that would accompany it in real life at least some of the time. And seeing it over and over makes it seem normal, reinforces our preconceived notions that this is just how men and women are, etc. So I do think while it's a mistake to say "tv makes men bad", media representation is definitely a factor in how we all see and treat each other imo.

(Also I think talking about how media impacts us is almost always negative, like the video games make us violent panic. But I don't think it's inherently good or bad, and I think it's like, a loop. We influence media, media influences us, and so forth forever.)

I usually chop up the continuous rouge troupe to bad writing. The writer was simply not creative enough to come up with a different character traits that could bring different dynamics to the screen. Kinda like how vilians in b movies are usually rapist.

 

[AmberCutie]

That would be true to some extent. I'm new to camming.

It should be really common sense, but especially so for adult performers, that there is a time and a place that certain things and actions can be expected and utilized for financial gain, and times and places that it is not acceptable.

On cam = clearly accepting at least SOME sexual objectification because that's the job.
On the street/in person = in-a-fucking-propriate unless specifically given consent to.

-----

Wasn't really planning on being part of this (very insightful and *mostly* constructive) discussion as I don't know exactly where I stand on the exact question. The term "rape culture" is so difficult to really grasp, I can't fault anyone for either being very confused and hesitant or extremely on-board with it.

 

[Mila_]

It was this:

Speaking as if women who don't like aggro dudes are all secretly hiding their true feelings (that happen to align with yours).

Okay, yeah, I can see I took some poetic licenses there

Most women do like dominant men, just not all of them.

Edit: and yeah... tonnnnnns of women say they want one thing when they want another... it is actually one of the defining traits of women when it comes to love. So many women say they want a nice guy who makes them laugh but always ditch them for dominant men with ZFG personalities.

 

[Luckyfoxxy]

It should be really common sense, but especially so for adult performers, that there is a time and a place that certain things and actions can be expected and utilized for financial gain, and times and places that it is not acceptable.

On cam = clearly accepting at least SOME sexual objectification because that's the job.
On the street/in person = in-a-fucking-propriate unless specifically given consent to.

.

I think it's too late to point out Booty_4u said "objectified in public place" which also counts camming aywhere that allows free chat.
Sexual objectification on street that I was mostly defending was staring and fantasizing. But it all gets a bit muddled up with these rather vague defnitions.

 

[AmberCutie]

in public place" which also counts camming aywhere that allows free chat.

Absolutely not. When cam models make the distinction of "in public" they are NOT talking about on the cam sites in which they work. This is what I mean about "you must be new". You'll get this concept soon.

 

[SMuser69]

Depending on what video of mine it is, I might agree with them.


I think the "women want strong men" trope has to do with the fact that men are the ones who've ~created~ this ideal and upheld it for centuries. Men have historically held more social and legal influence than women, so to me it makes sense that they'd reinforce this idea that women are weak and need a strong man to protect her (because with women always dependent on them, they keep their powerful social statuses under the guise of "we're just trying to protect you!")
Edited to add: Lots of women wholeheartedly believe men are stronger & should protect women... but this idea didn't just come to fruition magically out of nowhere!

I'm pretty sure nature created this troupe. It's called survival of the species. Sex existed well before society. Choosing mating partners was instinctual for a very very long time. Like every other life form on the planet looking for a physically health partner was the instinctual choice. Now you do this for a few millennial and even early people notice a pattern emerge who woman are choosing. I'm fairly sure when society did finally evolve something basic like that was latched onto. Saying anyone created it is not giving credit to evolution. Now there's an argument to be made on how that basic idea was steered as society evolved but we wouldn't had made it this far as a species if woman didn't care at all who's genes they were using to build new life from.

BTW on average men are physically stronger than women. This isn't fake news used to trick people. There's no statically evidence but I do believe protection from males in most cases is more effectively done with another male because the territorial understand males do have with each other (another leftover from instinct). I've never seen or at least acknowledged a woman visibly claiming territory. Usually a boy claimed the sandbox in school.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

On cam = clearly accepting at least SOME sexual objectification because that's the job.
On the street/in person = in-a-fucking-propriate unless specifically given consent to.

Since I mentioned the cam thing, in case I wasn't clear...I fully agree with both of these.

Attributing a portion of blame for what happens On street/in person to a distant portrayal On cam = ???

That is what I was driving at.

 

[JoleneBrody]

so I have seen

But I wasn't talking about in your chat room, I was referring to external voices.

edit: and I haven't been trolling your room

I would disagree with them for that reason, was my point. The majority of people think what I do for a living negatively impacts the world, nothing new. I don't, so I don't care. I don't stress what people think of me too much.

Edit: I don't get many trolls so I figured, not that you aren't welcome

 

[Booty_4U]

I'm pretty sure nature created this troupe. It's called survival of the species. Sex existed well before society. Choosing mating partners was instinctual for a very very long time. Like every other life form on the planet looking for a physically health partner was the instinctual choice. Now you do this for a few millennial and even early people notice a pattern emerge who woman are choosing. I'm fairly sure when society did finally evolve something basic like that was latched onto. Saying anyone created it is not giving credit to evolution. Now there's an argument to be made on how that basic idea was steered as society evolved but we wouldn't had made it this far as a species if woman didn't care at all who's genes they were using to build new life from.

BTW on average men are physically stronger than women. This isn't fake news used to trick people. There's no statically evidence but I do believe protection from males in most cases is more effectively done with another male because the territorial understand males do have with each other (another leftover from instinct). I've never seen or at least acknowledged a woman visibly claiming territory. Usually a boy claimed the sandbox in school.

I hope this analogy isn't too out of line, but you know how white people invented racism centuries ago? "Educated" white folks used pseudoscience to convince everyone that POC were inferior, due to "evolution". I feel like similar tactics are used to "differentiate" between males and females. Sure there are some differences between us, but for the most part we are the same. Feminists who want to eradicate "gender" is kind of like like people who want to eradicate "racism". The physical differences still exist, but they would no longer be considered something that defines or limits a person.
From what I understand, most people who identify as trans feel as though their brain doesn't match their body, sometimes akin to intersex people (who can also be trans, as "trans" is an umbrella term). Obviously gender confirmation surgery is very new, so for most of human history trans people didn't have the option to modify their bodies to match the gender they identified with. Labels for being "trans", "queer", "heterosexual", etc didn't really exist prior to the 1930's... which is why I don't think it's unreasonable for society to go back to not giving a fuck about what someone's genitals look like, or who they have sex with.

Edited to add, I just saw this: https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliareinstein/this-teen-reported-her-chilis-manager-for-sexual-harassment

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Edited to add, I just saw this: https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliareinstein/this-teen-reported-her-chilis-manager-for-sexual-harassment

 

[Nikola Tesla]

do not allow people to talk to me in my cam room in a way I wouldn't be comfortable with outside

gosh

 

[Nikola Tesla]

I..have no words

You are having a lot of fun with this thread, aren't you JJTP

 

[AmberCutie]

Edited to add, I just saw this: https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliareinstein/this-teen-reported-her-chilis-manager-for-sexual-harassment

Holy crapola... that article, agh. I have all sorts of replies to that. But.... I don't think this has anything to do with the topic, ultimately. Just my opinion.

People being pushy =/= rape culture, IMO.

 

[Nikola Tesla]

BuzzFeed? Is that a reputable site now? Or still just clickbait?

 

[justjoinedtopost]

You are having a lot of fun with this thread, aren't you JJTP

To be honest, no Nikola. Very stressful. Distressing at moments.
I have had a chuckle or two along the way.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliareinstein/this-teen-reported-her-chilis-manager-for-sexual-harassment
Media spin. Precisely the agenda driven junk food news people love to gobble up.
Just enough details given that you can believe she is a beautiful, young helpless victim. Or, White She-devil practicing her evil craft.
(I didn't think either of these things, just noted the way the story is being told. My wonder was, are her parents around and did they know about the situation? But then, I know at that age most people start shutting their parents out of a lot of their personal affairs).

Looking for different sources (local), I came across a nearby story.
Won't get nearly the coverage or discussion I imagine.
Spoilered as a courtesy, it is unpleasant.

Spoiler: Depressing

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/04/judge_to_child_rapist_we_have.html
He started at 11-12 years old from what I can tell.

 

[SMuser69]

To be honest, no Nikola. Very stressful. Distressing at moments.
I have had a chuckle or two along the way.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliareinstein/this-teen-reported-her-chilis-manager-for-sexual-harassment
Media spin. Precisely the agenda driven junk food news people love to gobble up.
Just enough details given that you can believe she is a beautiful, young helpless victim. Or, White She-devil practicing her evil craft.
(I didn't think either of these things, just noted the way the story is being told. My wonder was, are her parents around and did they know about the situation? But then, I know at that age most people start shutting their parents out of a lot of their personal affairs).

I felt that sitcom vibe to that articles also. Did her parents walk up the stairs and never return? In the end Buzzfeed was the hero for reporting the cake?

 

[Nikola Tesla]

To be honest, no Nikola. Very stressful. Distressing at moments.

Sorry that this triggers you. I assume that you were the 10 yearold boy with his feet on the door.

So very out of character for you, tho

My apologizes. Carry on.

 

[n_i_c_u]

... tonnnnnns of women say they want one thing when they want another... it is actually one of the defining traits of women when it comes to love. So many women say they want a nice guy who makes them laugh but always ditch them for dominant men with ZFG personalities.

Yeah I get the nice guys finish last thing, but damn life is confusing.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Sorry that this triggers you.

If you want to express sympathy, direct it towards my lack of cake.
Just dawned on me I could go for a piece right now, and I don't have any here at the house.

 

[Mila_]

Edited to add, I just saw this: https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliareinstein/this-teen-reported-her-chilis-manager-for-sexual-harassment

I am torn between the "FUCK YOU EMILY HOUSER" cake and the bit about how after 5 years of rape culture in the shape of envelopes full of cash she decided to report him to HQ when the dude moved on to another girl. So hard to pick a favorite part.

 

[Booty_4U]

Edited to add, I just saw this: https://www.buzzfeed.com/juliareinstein/this-teen-reported-her-chilis-manager-for-sexual-harassment

I should've clarified on my original post: The comments on the article are what I find interesting. People who are commenting that she probably deserved it, she probably loved every minute of it, she was probably just jealous of the younger girl he targeted, etc I'd consider examples of "rape culture" thinking/a reflection of many people's attitudes toward "non-perfect" victims in Western society. (The young woman kept working with her stalker for 2 years, which some people are attempting to use as a means to "discredit" her harassment claims)
.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I should've clarified on my original post: The comments on the article are what I find interesting. People who are commenting that she probably deserved it, she probably loved every minute of it, she was probably just jealous of the younger girl he targeted, etc I'd consider examples of "rape culture" thinking/a reflection of many people's attitudes toward "non-perfect" victims in Western society. (The young woman kept working with her stalker for 2 years, which some people are attempting to use as a means to "discredit" her harassment claims)
.

Any "rape cake" jokes yet?

 

[SMuser69]

I should've clarified on my original post: The comments on the article are what I find interesting. People who are commenting that she probably deserved it, she probably loved every minute of it, she was probably just jealous of the younger girl he targeted, etc I'd consider examples of "rape culture" thinking/a reflection of many people's attitudes toward "non-perfect" victims in Western society. (The young woman kept working with her stalker for 2 years, which some people are attempting to use as a means to "discredit" her harassment claims)
.

HQ didn't "discredit" them they didn't find enough there for termination so they chose to separate them. The HQ was very reactive firing EVERYONE after proof of the "anger cake" turned up.

The article is unfortunately one sided because the guy refused to comment. We are only reading HER perspective.

But still this is more a "WHERE ARE THE PARENTS?" issue than anything else.

 

[SaffronBurke]

HQ didn't "discredit" them they didn't find enough there for termination so they chose to separate them. The HQ was very reactive firing EVERYONE after proof of the "anger cake" turned up.

The article is unfortunately one sided because the guy refused to comment. We are only reading HER perspective.

But still this is more a "WHERE ARE THE PARENTS?" issue than anything else.

The parents may not have known. My mother didn't know that her friend who was staying with us when I was 13 was molesting me nearly the entire time. I didn't say anything for two years, because I didn't realize that that was what it was until then.

 

[Booty_4U]

HQ didn't "discredit" them they didn't find enough there for termination so they chose to separate them. The HQ was very reactive firing EVERYONE after proof of the "anger cake" turned up.

I was talking about people in the comment section of the article, not the company's HQ.

 

[LioraVox]

Thank you for asking..

This post you agreed with...

Important to understand, camsites are just as much a part of the media now as reddit, twitter, youtube, movies, music, etc...Especially the free chat sites, the ones that are wide open to minors.
With that in mind, this next post of yours is either delusional, or hypocritical, or lacking in situational awareness, or...idk.

No. You don't get a free pass. You don't get an exemption. Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise. Never mind how you feel. You are relatively new part of the media.
I am not speaking with malice/trollishness in mind here.

Sure, I have seen some examples from the camworld (from performers) that could fit in right alongside other examples I have seen of "rape culture". But I feel some conflict about the whole issue, and coming from me I think it would constitute little more than attackish/trollish derailment, no matter how I worded it.

Hmm.. good point.

You might perceive this is the case but not true. Cam modelling is sexual because cam sites don't restrict it. If Twitch didn't have rules on clothing you can bet there be nude gamers with lush by now. There no cam site on earth that tells you that you have to get nude or even perform sexual acts. Models do that because pushing the limits attracts the largest paying consumer base there. The only thing you're required to do on any cam site is make money. There are models that find ways to make money without taking any clothes off. It's not easy and it won't appeal to a large portion of the customer base however getting the most customers possible doesn't always mean you're making the most money. A model's choice to go naked is a business decision.

What I see as rape culture in those types of media (sans reddit - i dont understand reddit) are more reflective on the average person or normal parts of society where not everyone wants to be sexualized/persued after they said no/ etc. And with camming on sites like mfc/cb/sm etc etc, we as performers, are consenting to being viewed sexually no matter what it is that we are doing.. like it's literally in the terms & agreement of being on those sites. "Here's the rules.. (dont do this list of things.. anything else is cool unless we contact you) Do you agree? Click yes" - we have all clicked yes.
@SMuser69 :If twitch didn't have rules for clothing and there were nude gamers those gamers would be presenting themselves in a sexual way.. if people came in and said something sexual to them.. then that is the tone they set for their stream.

This is really similar to how some people view porn. Does it play up the "no= yes eventually" tropes- absolutely. But the people in porn are giving their consent to partake in that content..if someone took what was happening in the porn and went out into the world trying to recreate it w/o the consent or invitation to do so.. I'd see an issue.

For example : I've had dudes who I previously (6 months - 1year+ prior) slept with - who don't know that I cam - randomly text me demanding sexy photos of me for fap material cause porn isn't enough for them in that moment, or randomly texting me scenarios of what they would do to me if we were together in that moment. Or back when I was on dating sites, and dudes I don't know message me "imagine we're on a beach together lookin at the sunset over the ocean and I come up behind you and slip my fingers between your pussy and start fingering you right there in the sand." as a first message. Like WHO THE FUCK? To me that's inappropriate. But change the situation to these being random dudes via camland and I'd send both of them a link for payment.

There's a time & place for everything.

 

[LioraVox]

Double Post :

I was talking about this thread with a friend last night.. and realized that to me rape culture isn't a thing that is necessarily bad or good.. it just is. To me, it's acknowledging that there are things we have normalized as a collective group that could lead to/influence a person to do bad things. That the acknowledgment of things like catcalling or the "no=yes eventually" trope existing can influence a person to do these actions themselves.. but end up going too far which lands them into the rapist/sexual assaulter category. It kinda stops the conversation of " Idk why this person would do such a thing!?" - like if you pay attention they did it because we say that these things are normal.. but this asshole doesn't understand when enough is enough and took it too far.

 

[SMuser69]

Hmm.. good point.



What I see as rape culture in those types of media (sans reddit - i dont understand reddit) are more reflective on the average person or normal parts of society where not everyone wants to be sexualized/persued after they said no/ etc. And with camming on sites like mfc/cb/sm etc etc, we as performers, are consenting to being viewed sexually no matter what it is that we are doing.. like it's literally in the terms & agreement of being on those sites. "Here's the rules.. (dont do this list of things.. anything else is cool unless we contact you) Do you agree? Click yes" - we have all clicked yes.
@SMuser69 :If twitch didn't have rules for clothing and there were nude gamers those gamers would be presenting themselves in a sexual way.. if people came in and said something sexual to them.. then that is the tone they set for their stream.

This is really similar to how some people view porn. Does it play up the "no= yes eventually" tropes- absolutely. But the people in porn are giving their consent to partake in that content..if someone took what was happening in the porn and went out into the world trying to recreate it w/o the consent or invitation to do so.. I'd see an issue.

For example : I've had dudes who I previously (6 months - 1year+ prior) slept with - who don't know that I cam - randomly text me demanding sexy photos of me for fap material cause porn isn't enough for them in that moment, or randomly texting me scenarios of what they would do to me if we were together in that moment. Or back when I was on dating sites, and dudes I don't know message me "imagine we're on a beach together lookin at the sunset over the ocean and I come up behind you and slip my fingers between your pussy and start fingering you right there in the sand." as a first message. Like WHO THE FUCK? To me that's inappropriate. But change the situation to these being random dudes via camland and I'd send both of them a link for payment.

There's a time & place for everything.

My comments about twitch were in regards to streamers that use twitch for income. There are rules that stop a twitch stream from what they can "offer" for tips. If there weren't those rules in place I predict that streamers would continue to out edge each other until twitch would look no different than any other existing cam site. For example streamers were starting to offer to twerk for tips at one point and twitch came down with the hammer and put a stop to it.

 

[LioraVox]

My comments about twitch were in regards to streamers that use twitch for income. There are rules that stop a twitch stream from what they can "offer" for tips. If there weren't those rules in place I predict that streamers would continue to out edge each other until twitch would look no different than any other existing cam site. For example streamers were starting to offer to twerk for tips at one point and twitch came down with the hammer and put a stop to it.

So you were just saying that camming ( cam people + game streamers) isn't sexual by nature but that the performers who decide to be sexual is what makes it sexual??

I'm not fully understanding the purpose of mentioning twitch streamers at all here, tbh.

 

[SMuser69]

So you were just saying that camming ( cam people + game streamers) isn't sexual by nature but that the performers who decide to be sexual is what makes it sexual??

I'm not fully understanding the purpose of mentioning twitch streamers at all here, tbh.

Camming does not have to be sexual at all. The cam person usually chooses themselves to be sexual because it interests a larger audience and more potential for income. Cam sites end up sexual because there are no rules stopping it.

Twitch has rules in place to limit sexually which forces monetary streamers to find non sexual ways to interest their audiences for income.