Conspiracy Theories

[Deleted member 8603]

You PCM and OB are people too and while I would expect better from them, they are just as prone to conspiracy theories as others. I am not saying you should not take the advice of your doctors but at least make an informed decision.

Listeria has been found in uncooked meats, uncooked vegetables, un pasteurized milk, foods made from un pasteurized milk, and processed foods. Did your PCM and OB tell you to avoid those?

It's pretty presumptuous of you to act like Rose has just been going blindly into this pregnancy and hasn't done any research or made informed decisions about her care and the care of her unborn child.

There's a list a mile long of things that a pregnant woman can't eat for one reason or another. Every OB, PCM, CNP, book and parenting magazine advises against consumption of most of these things.

I've heard several doctors advise against flu shots with pregnant friends.
I think if you're going to tell someone to go against their doctor's orders, you damn well better be a licensed medical practitioner specializing in that field.
Your internet searches and blanket releases do not trump a doctor's orders for a whole list of reasons.
Number one being, the doctor has gone to medical school and probably knows what they're saying.

 

[Just Me]

You PCM and OB are people too and while I would expect better from them, they are just as prone to conspiracy theories as others. I am not saying you should not take the advice of your doctors but at least make an informed decision.

Listeria has been found in uncooked meats, uncooked vegetables, un pasteurized milk, foods made from un pasteurized milk, and processed foods. Did your PCM and OB tell you to avoid those?

It's pretty presumptuous of you to act like Rose has just been going blindly into this pregnancy and hasn't done any research or made informed decisions about her care and the care of her unborn child.

There's a list a mile long of things that a pregnant woman can't eat for one reason or another. Every OB, PCM, CNP, book and parenting magazine advises against consumption of most of these things.

I've heard several doctors advise against flu shots with pregnant friends.
I think if you're going to tell someone to go against their doctor's orders, you damn well better be a licensed medical practitioner specializing in that field.
Your internet searches and blanket releases do not trump a doctor's orders for a whole list of reasons.
Number one being, the doctor has gone to medical school and probably knows what they're saying.

I know several doctors that believe homeopathy works. I am sure I could find many doctors on the internet that believe crazier things as well. Just because they are doctors it does not make them infallible.

I would appreciate it if people would stop putting words in my mouth. Not once I have I told someone to go against doctors orders. I posted current information on the safety and efficacy of the flu shot for pregnant women to refute the ridiculous claims that it causes miscarriages. People are free to do what they want with that information.

 

[Deleted member 8603]

I know several doctors that believe homeopathy works. I am sure I could find many doctors on the internet that believe crazier things as well. Just because they are doctors it does not make them infallible.

I would appreciate it if people would stop putting words in my mouth. Not once I have I told someone to go against doctors orders. I posted current information on the safety and efficacy of the flu shot for pregnant women to refute the ridiculous claims that it causes miscarriages. People are free to do what they want with that information.

You think that her doctor is wrong and that she should get the shot.
If that's not what you think, then you're a very confusing typist.

And yes, there are crazy doctors out there, but I'd be more likely to trust someone who has all of my information and is trained for years to tell me the safe thing to do. Her doctor thinks the best thing for HER is to not get it.
If anything happens due to the doctor's advice, then the doctor can be held accountable.

 

[AllisonWilder]

You PCM and OB are people too and while I would expect better from them, they are just as prone to conspiracy theories as others. I am not saying you should not take the advice of your doctors but at least make an informed decision.

Listeria has been found in uncooked meats, uncooked vegetables, un pasteurized milk, foods made from un pasteurized milk, and processed foods. Did your PCM and OB tell you to avoid those?

It's pretty presumptuous of you to act like Rose has just been going blindly into this pregnancy and hasn't done any research or made informed decisions about her care and the care of her unborn child.

There's a list a mile long of things that a pregnant woman can't eat for one reason or another. Every OB, PCM, CNP, book and parenting magazine advises against consumption of most of these things.

I've heard several doctors advise against flu shots with pregnant friends.
I think if you're going to tell someone to go against their doctor's orders, you damn well better be a licensed medical practitioner specializing in that field.
Your internet searches and blanket releases do not trump a doctor's orders for a whole list of reasons.
Number one being, the doctor has gone to medical school and probably knows what they're saying.

I know several doctors that believe homeopathy works. I am sure I could find many doctors on the internet that believe crazier things as well. Just because they are doctors it does not make them infallible.

I would appreciate it if people would stop putting words in my mouth. Not once I have I told someone to go against doctors orders. I posted current information on the safety and efficacy of the flu shot for pregnant women to refute the ridiculous claims that it causes miscarriages. People are free to do what they want with that information.

They might not be infallible but they know the patient and what's in her best interest.

You'll never carry a child, so you'll never have to make that call as to what to put in your body that may or may not be safe for your fetus. It's not a ridiculous claim, these things actually happen.

 

[LadyLuna]

1. Everybody's body works differently. Some people live longer from smoking than those who don't. Some people die sooner from cancer. Some people need milk daily to stay healthy, others can't drink it without getting sick.

2. Doctors don't always know what's going on. Medical studies come up one year which say one thing, and come up the next year which say something completely different. This is because of point #1.

So, from this, we can conclude that the flu shot will be risky for some babies, and not for others. But how do you figure out which ones can handle their mother taking the flu shot? This is what we need to focus on. Not "this is safe for everyone" or "this is unsafe for everyone", because there is NO SUCH THING as something that works the same for everyone. It doesn't exist. Instead, we need to figure out what factors make things safe or unsafe for various people.

Then, instead of saying "the flu shot will kill the unborn child" or "the flu shot is safe for the unborn child" we can say "the flu shot is safe if the unborn child meets these criteria, otherwise use at your own risk." But trials like that are so complicated that I doubt they will ever be done.

 

[Jupiter551]

Well from a common-sense viewpoint, one thing to think about is that a vaccination is a small amount of the virus applied in order for your immune system to learn to deal with it. Whatever goes into the mother's bloodstream goes into the baby's, so it would seem fairly obvious that an amount of flu used as a vaccine could be fine for the mother but harmful to a tiny unborn baby. :twocents-02cents:

 

[Avatar]

I don't see any medical conspiracies as to the efficacy or dangers of vaccines or other treatments; if anything, it would seem to be a lack of adequate, properly analyzed information. You're always better off making an informed decision than taking a guess or relying on a gut feeling.

 

[Jupiter551]

I don't see any medical conspiracies as to the efficacy or dangers of vaccines or other treatments; if anything, it would seem to be a lack of adequate, properly analyzed information. You're always better off making an informed decision than taking a guess or relying on a gut feeling.

right, but a conspiracy theory about vaccinations in general, and whether pregnant women should get flu shots are two entirely different things. One is a conspiracy theory, one is a potential health risk.

 

[Avatar]

right, but a conspiracy theory about vaccinations in general, and whether pregnant women should get flu shots are two entirely different things. One is a conspiracy theory, one is a potential health risk.

I did sort of conflate the two, but only to state that proper information is key to both. Making a decision without having real facts in front of you is a mistake in any case; belief doesn't usually cut it when you have the ability to know for sure.

 

[Shaun__]

Seats belts save thousands, but kill a few people. Flu shots save an unknown number of babies and kill an unknown number of babies. How many babies would have died of the flu if their mother had not gotten a seasonal flu shot? You can never know how many people would have gotten sick if they had not done something or how many would have died instead of getting better. The flu kills very few babies every year though, but circumstantial evidence seems to suggest the flu shot causes thousands of miscarriages a year. I understand why some doctors might not think flu shots are good for pregnant women.

Parents are often faced with such difficult decisions. I think if I had a child I would consider risking not getting the flu shot.

 

[Rose]

Just from a fact standpoint: in my city they do not offer or give the seasonal flu shot to children under 2 years old. Their reasoning is because the child's immune system is simply not strong enough to handle the vaccine yet; they also say that if your child has signs of the flu to bring them in to your pediatrician asap so they can be treated quickly.

BJ's opinion (as an expectant father) is that if they won't give the flu shot to newborns and small children, then he doesn't think it should be given to me because the fetus will also feel the effects of the shot.

To me this makes sense. If they recommend highly against giving small children the flu shot, then I don't want to put my fetus at risk since it's 'younger' than a small child.

Just my opinion from what I've researched and been told by my doctors, all hormones aside:twocents-02cents:

 

[jackie_O]

I know if you are in the US military, you are required to get the flu shot regularly. Anyone know what the military policy on giving the flu shot to pregnant soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen is?

 

[LadyLuna]

I know if you are in the US military, you are required to get the flu shot regularly. Anyone know what the military policy on giving the flu shot to pregnant soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen is?

Aren't pregnant women automatically on leave?

 

[AllisonWilder]

That's what I thought, Luna, but I did a little googling and it seems that it's not automatic so long as there are lower-risk things that can be done.

 

[Just Me]

Well from a common-sense viewpoint, one thing to think about is that a vaccination is a small amount of the virus applied in order for your immune system to learn to deal with it. Whatever goes into the mother's bloodstream goes into the baby's, so it would seem fairly obvious that an amount of flu used as a vaccine could be fine for the mother but harmful to a tiny unborn baby. :twocents-02cents:

If you read the links I posted you will see it is not harmful to the baby and is even beneficial. Since no one here seems to believe the CDC or not reading the links I will post a quote from the March of Dimes website: http://www.marchofdimes.com/pregnancy/complications_flu.html

Getting a flu shot during pregnancy is good for your baby, too. Babies born to women who get the vaccine during pregnancy are less likely to get sick with influenza.

 

[Just Me]

Seats belts save thousands, but kill a few people. Flu shots save an unknown number of babies and kill an unknown number of babies. How many babies would have died of the flu if their mother had not gotten a seasonal flu shot? You can never know how many people would have gotten sick if they had not done something or how many would have died instead of getting better. The flu kills very few babies every year though, but circumstantial evidence seems to suggest the flu shot causes thousands of miscarriages a year. I understand why some doctors might not think flu shots are good for pregnant women.

Parents are often faced with such difficult decisions. I think if I had a child I would consider risking not getting the flu shot.

Even if the risk from influenza is higher than any of risks associated with the flu shot?

How can influenza harm your pregnancy?
Health complications from influenza, such as pneumonia, can be serious and even deadly, especially if you’re pregnant. Pregnant women who get influenza are more likely than women who don’t get it to have preterm labor and premature birth. These are labor and birth that happen too early, before 37 completed weeks of pregnancy. Premature birth can cause serious health problems for your baby.

Influenza can be harmful during pregnancy because pregnancy affects your immune system. Your immune system is your body’s way of protecting itself from illnesses and diseases. When your body senses something like a virus that can harm your health, your immune system works hard to fight the virus.

When you’re pregnant, your immune system isn’t as quick to respond to illnesses as it was before pregnancy. Your body knows that pregnancy is OK and that it shouldn’t reject your baby. So, your body naturally lowers the immune system’s ability to protect you and respond to illnesses so that it can welcome your growing baby. But a lowered immune system means you’re more likely to catch illnesses like influenza.

Another reason influenza can be harmful during pregnancy is that your lungs need more oxygen, especially in the second and third trimesters, for you and your baby. Your growing belly puts pressure on your lungs, making them work harder in a smaller space. You may even find yourself feeling shortness of breath at times. Your heart is working hard, too. It’s busy supplying blood to you and your baby. All of this means your body is stressed during pregnancy. This stress on your body can make you more likely to get an illness like influenza.

 

[jackie_O]

I know if you are in the US military, you are required to get the flu shot regularly. Anyone know what the military policy on giving the flu shot to pregnant soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen is?

Aren't pregnant women automatically on leave?

I believe you are on leave a certain time period before and after the birth. But you can definitely be pregnant while on duty, enough to be showing and need a different type of uniform.

 

[Just Me]

Just from a fact standpoint: in my city they do not offer or give the seasonal flu shot to children under 2 years old. Their reasoning is because the child's immune system is simply not strong enough to handle the vaccine yet; they also say that if your child has signs of the flu to bring them in to your pediatrician asap so they can be treated quickly.

BJ's opinion (as an expectant father) is that if they won't give the flu shot to newborns and small children, then he doesn't think it should be given to me because the fetus will also feel the effects of the shot.

To me this makes sense. If they recommend highly against giving small children the flu shot, then I don't want to put my fetus at risk since it's 'younger' than a small child.

Just my opinion from what I've researched and been told by my doctors, all hormones aside:twocents-02cents:

Their reasoning is flawed. Direct quote from the CDC website:

Who Should Get Vaccinated This Season?
Everyone who is at least 6 months of age should get a flu vaccine this season. It’s especially important for some people to get vaccinated. Those people include the following:
People who are at high risk of developing serious complications like pneumonia if they get sick with the flu. This includes:
People who have certain medical conditions including asthma, diabetes, and chronic lung disease.
Pregnant women.
People 65 years and older
People who live with or care for others who are high risk of developing serious complications. This includes:
household contacts and caregivers of people with certain medical conditions including asthma, diabetes, and chronic lung disease.

 

[Shaun__]

Parents are often faced with such difficult decisions. I think if I had a child I would consider risking not getting the flu shot.

Even if the risk from influenza is higher than any of risks associated with the flu shot?

The risk of the flu shot is the death of the baby, and the risk of the flu according to what you posted is premature birth. Your idea of worse is different than mine.

 

[Just Me]

Parents are often faced with such difficult decisions. I think if I had a child I would consider risking not getting the flu shot.

Even if the risk from influenza is higher than any of risks associated with the flu shot?

The risk of the flu shot is the death of the baby, and the risk of the flu according to what you posted is premature birth. Your idea of worse is different than mine.

Preterm labor and premature birth can also mean the death of the baby. There is no proven risk of the flu shot resulting in the death of the baby.

 

[AllisonWilder]

Just from a fact standpoint: in my city they do not offer or give the seasonal flu shot to children under 2 years old. Their reasoning is because the child's immune system is simply not strong enough to handle the vaccine yet; they also say that if your child has signs of the flu to bring them in to your pediatrician asap so they can be treated quickly.

BJ's opinion (as an expectant father) is that if they won't give the flu shot to newborns and small children, then he doesn't think it should be given to me because the fetus will also feel the effects of the shot.

To me this makes sense. If they recommend highly against giving small children the flu shot, then I don't want to put my fetus at risk since it's 'younger' than a small child.

Just my opinion from what I've researched and been told by my doctors, all hormones aside:twocents-02cents:

Their reasoning is flawed. Direct quote from the CDC website:

Who Should Get Vaccinated This Season?
Everyone who is at least 6 months of age should get a flu vaccine this season. It’s especially important for some people to get vaccinated. Those people include the following:
People who are at high risk of developing serious complications like pneumonia if they get sick with the flu. This includes:
People who have certain medical conditions including asthma, diabetes, and chronic lung disease.
Pregnant women.
People 65 years and older
People who live with or care for others who are high risk of developing serious complications. This includes:
household contacts and caregivers of people with certain medical conditions including asthma, diabetes, and chronic lung disease.

Just because it's considered safe, doesn't mean that miscarriage won't ever happen because of a flu shot. I would never put so much as a Tylenol in my body if there was even a tiny bit of doubt in my mind about its safety to my unborn baby.

The bottom line in this discussion is that no matter what, it is always the pregnant woman (and the father of the baby) who has the only say in the matter of whether or not they will get the flu shot. That woman (or couple) will have to weigh the risks and benefits of getting a flu shot or not and they will be the only ones that will have to live with the consequences if they make the wrong choice for them.

 

[Shaun__]

Preterm labor and premature birth can also mean the death of the baby. There is no proven risk of the flu shot resulting in the death of the baby.

Or it can mean they live. We have advanced medical facilities in this part of the world. Again I will say your idea of worse is different than mine.

 

[Just Me]

You know what? This thread has gone beyond the conspiracy theories original topic and devolved into a back and forth about risk assessment. I apologize for my part in it. I am more than happy to debate flu shots, although my original post was not directed at any particular vaccine, in another thread. We can include how people in general are poor at risk assessment. :lol:

 

[Rose]

We can include how people in general are poor at risk assessment. :lol:

Really? Really?....

 

[Just Me]

We can include how people in general are poor at risk assessment. :lol:

Really? Really?....

Yes really. Do you always take everything personally and assume peoples posts are directed at you? People in general are poor at risk assessment and that includes me.

 

[LuckySmiles]

aliens! aliens! nikki minaj! illuminati!big foot! jay-z! lol I'm bouncing around in distraction...


oooh oooh I got one Tupac. Conspiracy, murder never solved who did it?producers to sell more records?
clearly not a "random act" of violence... never solved...

 

[Rose]

We can include how people in general are poor at risk assessment. :lol:

Really? Really?....

Yes really. Do you always take everything personally and assume peoples posts are directed at you? People in general are poor at risk assessment and that includes me.

Sorry, I was just pointing out that you made a pretty assy comment. Didn't realize I was taking it personally for pointing out that you were being rude.

:handgestures-salute:

 

[TashaDutch]

aliens! aliens! nikki minaj! illuminati!big foot! jay-z! lol I'm bouncing around in distraction...


oooh oooh I got one Tupac. Conspiracy, murder never solved who did it?producers to sell more records?
clearly not a "random act" of violence... never solved...

hmm hey thats one of those i really did go on research for... it's really intriguing.. the way he was prenounced dead and the way his autopsy was performed... and then no funural...
i can really see how that got people paranoid... and come up with all those questions..
his mom really did speak in riddles.. if you watch that interview they did back then.. it really gets you wondering...
i doubt that he's still alive... alot of people say we will know in 2014... if the world didnt end ray:
after everything i read about it... i have no clue... but i find that sugga guy really suspicious

 

[LadyLuna]

Thread about flu shots and risk assessment

 

[LuckySmiles]

aliens! aliens! nikki minaj! illuminati!big foot! jay-z! lol I'm bouncing around in distraction...


oooh oooh I got one Tupac. Conspiracy, murder never solved who did it?producers to sell more records?
clearly not a "random act" of violence... never solved...

hmm hey thats one of those i really did go on research for... it's really intriguing.. the way he was prenounced dead and the way his autopsy was performed... and then no funural...
i can really see how that got people paranoid... and come up with all those questions..
his mom really did speak in riddles.. if you watch that interview they did back then.. it really gets you wondering...
i doubt that he's still alive... alot of people say we will know in 2014... if the world didnt end ray:
after everything i read about it... i have no clue... but i find that sugga guy really suspicious

lol well his mom was a black panther and he was very outspoken politically. He was a very influential voice and motivator of his time. I believe he's dead though lol. His image was a gangster or whatever but he was a trained actor, highly intelligent and only 25 when he died(who doesn't just care about partying and bullshit in their early 20s?). He'd be about 41 now... and likely give obama a run for his money...
Jay-Z did it. lol.