Camgirls who scam

[SaffronBurke]

I actually had someone get cranky when I asked for 50% before shooting their custom because "how will I know if I like it". So, you only pay for videos you like? That's not how this works, bub. That was the end of that discussion, who would film a custom video for someone like that?

 

[zippypinhead]

As I'd said, to each their own. If it works for you, Teagan, it works for you. I'm not going to sit here, endlessly repeating myself, trying to convince you that another way would be better. It makes no nevermind to me how you run your ship, since I'm not one of your passengers.

 

[Teagan]

Like I said I understand that members get scammed but i'm simply saying payment on delivery rarely works for camgirls therefore that is no where near a better way to do it. If every girl sent a video or did a show and then expected payment we would be sol 9 out of 10 times and all be broke. And seeing as how this has been discussed to death in MO and tested repeatedly by various girls (myself included) this is just a fact and not speculation. That is not a way to run any business really on the internet. It's why so many companies do not offer CODs anymore. Its a failed experiment in reality of today. You dont order a delivery pizza exactly how you want it and to your specifications and then eat it and then pay. You pay at the door before they even hand it to you. Now restaurants yes you eat then pay, however restaurants have you in store and "captive" so to speak and have the option to call the police on you. Camgirls are working in the interweb and do not have that luxury so we more are like delivery companies in a sense and do get paid up front for our stuff otherwise we get dine and dashers and people treating us like yard sale hagglers otherwise.

Now if someone actually came up with a better way that is not the girl getting fucked over or the guy like a legit site then i'd be open to it but that simply does not exist right now.

And I understand you do not do business with me zippy but my reasoning for saying all this is to inform others here as well exactly why camgirls do not accept payment on delivery or half up front in the majority of instances. Or they wont even do customs at all because of all that can go with it. Guys just think they are protecting themselves but the girls are just doing the same especially when a multitude of guys who are out to scam us try to do so on a constant daily basis.

 

[Ambers Troll]

To answer the OP's question, being 'scammed' by a model is so common to most members it is boring. They are usually either accidental or systemic on the model's part. My last one was tipping a long term friend, she said she would send a gg video, I reminded her of it a few visits after, when she made the same offer. Got no response, and as yet no video. I wont bother reminding her again, not worth the hassle and risk spoiling my free time.

I still like the model, and will still tip her (as a top 100 model she does many things right), but never for anything like a video. Things like this are why members feel the need to test trust a little before spending on a model, or wait until they see that she is trustworthy before spending. Models only hurt themselves and other models by creating more lurkers and beggers, in short cautious spenders.

If custom videos are your thing there are some amazing models who always deliver, I would recommend looking for models with many non-custom videos for sale, and buy one of those 1st, to test the waters.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Like I said I understand that members get scammed but i'm simply saying payment on delivery rarely works for camgirls therefore that is no where near a better way to do it. If every girl sent a video or did a show and then expected payment we would be sol 9 out of 10 times and all be broke. And seeing as how this has been discussed to death in MO and tested repeatedly by various girls (myself included) this is just a fact and not speculation. That is not a way to run any business really on the internet. It's why so many companies do not offer CODs anymore. Its a failed experiment in reality of today. You dont order a delivery pizza exactly how you want it and to your specifications and then eat it and then pay. You pay at the door before they even hand it to you. Now restaurants yes you eat then pay, however restaurants have you in store and "captive" so to speak and have the option to call the police on you. Camgirls are working in the interweb and do not have that luxury so we more are like delivery companies in a sense and do get paid up front for our stuff otherwise we get dine and dashers and people treating us like yard sale hagglers otherwise.

Now if someone actually came up with a better way that is not the girl getting fucked over or the guy like a legit site then i'd be open to it but that simply does not exist right now.

And I understand you do not do business with me zippy but my reasoning for saying all this is to inform others here as well exactly why camgirls do not accept payment on delivery or half up front in the majority of instances. Or they wont even do customs at all because of all that can go with it. Guys just think they are protecting themselves but the girls are just doing the same especially when a multitude of guys who are out to scam us try to do so on a constant daily basis.

While I am sure there are other business where full payment up front is expected, it is certainly in the minority . Hell even the pizza example the transaction is simultaneously, they give you the pizza you give them $20. While you can give them a credit card upfront, AFAIK most pizza places will still let your order a pizza and pay when you get it. If you order a vegetarian pizza they gave you one with meat you certainly can, and often people will refuse payment. But forget the physical world we are dealing with virtual goods being exchanged across the internet.

I can order a custom website, a javascript backend for a database, a custom logo, a film script, musical jingle, somebody to provide me with the contact info for all the auto dealers in a particular city, a person to check out the happy hour promotions of all bars in neighborhood,and 100 other customized service request, and pay between 0 and 50% upfront. The balance is paid after you accept the final customized product. I can do this over the internet with people I've never meet in different countries. Amazon Mechanical Turk is just one such service. (It appears you can actually request custom adult video from Amazon but I could be totally wrong about this.).

I think we can all agree that current system is pretty bad. Yes for the most part it protects camgirls from doing the work and getting ripped off. However, the experience of being ripped is common enough that it leaves a sour taste in many members, and they response by not buying things from new models.

 

[Ann_Sulu]

So I guess a good question is "how can camgirls/members go about the process so as both sides won't be scammed?"

A few sites like Extralunchmoney offer an escrow option, but since tips on camsites are "gifts", I'm not sure if they can be used on camsites.

Edit: I missed that Gen beat me to it haha!

 

[kylexy]

Please let's not make this a discussion about who's more likely to scam the other (the buyer or the seller), that was not my intention.

But in my experience it is the way that Teagan describes in 99% of the cases. The buyer pays up front and then can only hope that she is not a scammer. And this way of doing business is strongly in favor of the cam girl, that we can agree on I hope?

I'm quite surprised that fellow camgirls don't seem to think that it's a problem when other camgirls scam people, or at best are very difficult to deal with. I understand that it's not your responsibility how others run their business but it's giving cam girls, as a group, a bad reputation, and that should not be very positive for the ones who are serious.

 

[Teagan]

Not sure where you got the idea that we dont care if other girls scam. I dont see anyone saying that. They absolutely give credible girls a bad name and make members wary to trust the good ones. The fact is though there is nothing we can do about it plus it takes care of itself. Scammers dont prosper and fizzle out when they screw over enough people and leave cause tips dry up. We can only keep up our good work and deliver our goods and not be a scammer ourselves.

My point like I said though was not to say who scammed more cause that is not questionable. It was to show WHY girls do ask for payment up front. We also have to hope members wont take our vids and post them places without our consent AND that he wont charge back for things as well. The risk is more on us every single time so that's also why I feel payment should favor us more. Yes it sucks girls scam but that's no reason for me to put myself at even more risk cause other people suck ass.

 

[kylexy]

Yeah but that reasoning can be used the other way around as well so it doesn't really say anything. "Yes it sucks buyers scam but that's no reason for me to put myself at even more risk cause other people suck ass.". If it's the buyer or the seller who's taking the "biggest risk" is debatable.

 

[Teagan]

If after everything I have said of the risks and all it takes for camgirls to put into content hasnt gotten through to you as to who is more at risk then.....man... I dont even know what to say. It is not debatable in any way dude. It's just not. But you go on thinking that all you want.

 

[Jillybean]

@zippypinhead I hope you can understand there's a really shitty thing going on here.

1) Good members are scammed by shitty models.
2) Good models are scammed by shitty members.

So, in order to mitigate losses: members are skeptical before doling out cash now for services rendered later; models are skeptical before performing services now for payments received later.

Basically, I don't blame you one bit for not budging in your policy of never paying now for something you won't receive until later.

And I hope you understand and don't blame models for not budging on their policies.

It is really frustrating to me that I've become so distrusting of every single member. Seriously, until you guys prove yourselves to me that you're not an entire waste of my time, then I don't trust you. I'm usually a pretty trusting and open person to other people, so it annoys me that this has become my attitude.

 

[zippypinhead]

You are still in possession of the content, though. You lost promised money, but if you see fit, you could still sell the video you made. If a customer pays for content that's never delivered, and he can't get the money refunded, what is he left in possession of?

EDIT: @Jillybean, I understand perfectly well the dynamic at play, here. I'm just of the mindset that a lot of this could be mitigated if the underlying attitude was less bitter and paranoid on both sides of the transaction.

 

[Teagan]

I already explained what we are out and it's more than promised money and why more often than not we can not resell the videos at all. I dont need to repeat myself. So guys can do like others said and make a smaller order first then go ahead with bigger orders once trust is built.

 

[AnneDVille]

This is new and interesting thingy to me brain....

I have never ever never done a custom before being paid up front. I don't really do customs these days but when I did... I would take the money upfront. It's a sex worker thing. You can't compare it to buying a pizza. (Although in the UK everything gets paid upfront, even the pizza. You order, you pay, you get your shit... must be a cultural thing).

I do understand people being skeptic (members). I also know that a lot of models have been scammed. But so have members. So now... the geek in me wants to do a survey and figure out the statistic possibility of that actually happening.

*Anne getting ideas... dangerous....*

 

[hapa74]

@zippypinhead I hope you can understand there's a really shitty thing going on here.

1) Good members are scammed by shitty models.
2) Good models are scammed by shitty members.

So, in order to mitigate losses: members are skeptical before doling out cash now for services rendered later; models are skeptical before performing services now for payments received later.

Basically, I don't blame you one bit for not budging in your policy of never paying now for something you won't receive until later.

And I hope you understand and don't blame models for not budging on their policies.

This is the unfortunate reality, and I heartily agree. This discussion can go on and on, and it has a few (or more) times on ACF in various forms, but this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

It is really frustrating to me that I've become so distrusting of every single member. Seriously, until you guys prove yourselves to me that you're not an entire waste of my time, then I don't trust you. I'm usually a pretty trusting and open person to other people, so it annoys me that this has become my attitude.

Because of past experiences on the members side, I only interact with a handful of models, and then there are only one or two that I actually fully trust. It's a sad state I've found myself in, and it stinks.

 

[Ann_Sulu]

This is new and interesting thingy to me brain....

I have never ever never done a custom before being paid up front. I don't really do customs these days but when I did... I would take the money upfront. It's a sex worker thing. You can't compare it to buying a pizza. (Although in the UK everything gets paid upfront, even the pizza. You order, you pay, you get your shit... must be a cultural thing).

I do understand people being skeptic (members). I also know that a lot of models have been scammed. But so have members. So now... the geek in me wants to do a survey and figure out the statistic possibility of that actually happening.

*Anne getting ideas... dangerous....*

When I first started making videos I did a lot of customs without charging upfront simply due to being new to making videos. I figured I didn't really know what to charge, and the quality wasn't as good back then. Rather that handing them the video before payment, I would make it post it, and let them know it was in my store. If they wanted to do payment through another site, that was fine. I got tons of suggestions for clips that were never bought, so yeah I'd never make a custom before they bought it. It was a huge waste of time considering how long it often takes to make even a 5 minute clip (with or without editing).

I feel sympathy towards members who've been scammed, but I'm not crazy about the idea of someone not paying or only paying 50% when I'd be doing waaay better financially spending time re-uploading old clips to promote my clip stores.

 

[Jillybean]

You are still in possession of the content, though. You lost promised money, but if you see fit, you could still sell the video you made. If a customer pays for content that's never delivered, and he can't get the money refunded, what is he left in possession of?

EDIT: @Jillybean, I understand perfectly well the dynamic at play, here. I'm just of the mindset that a lot of this could be mitigated if the underlying attitude was less bitter and paranoid on both sides of the transaction.

This I don't understand. A lot of what, exactly, could be mitigated? The way I see it, the "paranoia" is simply models & members acting in their own best interest. I don't do anything I'm not paid for, and therefore I lose nothing. The skeptical member doesn't pay for anything he isn't certain he will get, and therefore loses nothing. No loss=no mitigation needed.

I don't see how it's paranoid at all. There's a difference between paranoid and careful.

And like @GenXoxo said, if both are impassably skeptical of each other yet still wish to reach a deal, there are websites out there with escrow! I know of ELM and also I think MGF!

 

[Ann_Sulu]

This I don't understand. A lot of what, exactly, could be mitigated? The way I see it, the "paranoia" is simply models & members acting in their own best interest. I don't do anything I'm not paid for, and therefore I lose nothing. The skeptical member doesn't pay for anything he isn't certain he will get, and therefore loses nothing. No loss=no mitigation needed.

I don't see how it's paranoid at all. There's a difference between paranoid and careful.

And like @GenXoxo said, if both are impassably skeptical of each other yet still wish to reach a deal, there are websites out there with escrow! I know of ELM and also I think MGF!

Why do I get the feeling that not every member here knows what an escrow is lol?

Just in case...here's a summary. A date is set for when the video is delivered. The model sees the money has been sent by the member, but she won't get the money until the video is delivered. The member can cancel at any time. It really is a great system for making sure nobody gets screwed.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

You are still in possession of the content, though. You lost promised money, but if you see fit, you could still sell the video you made. If a customer pays for content that's never delivered, and he can't get the money refunded, what is he left in possession of?

I think that's a really good point. I've always given permission for a camgirl to sell my custom video. Perhaps more importantly I've bought scores of videos that started out as somebody elses custom video. Most of the time the only reason I know they are custom video is the filename of the video joesriding, custompanty etc. or the camgirl told me. So the actuall number videos that I've bought that started out as somebody else's custom is undoubtedly much higher. Often these custom videos are some of my favorites. Given the huge number of categories on various fetish sites, it seems to me that more often you could sell an unpaid video, with some minor edits like deleting the part where you moan Joes name. A couple of videos a guys name is still mentioned. So I am curious why Teagan doesn't think they are generally resellable

A member is completely shit out of luck. But clearly minds are made up here.

 

[zippypinhead]

But clearly minds are made up here.

Yeah.

Why do I get the feeling that not every member here knows what an escrow is lol?

Just in case...here's a summary. A date is set for when the video is delivered. The model sees the money has been sent by the member, but she won't get the money until the video is delivered. The member can cancel at any time. It really is a great system for making sure nobody gets screwed.

It's because as long as people are out there who are willing to input their credit card info with their free hand, people are going to be put in the position of not actually watching out for both sides of the deal. And the cycle will continue, and disdain for one another will continue to be business as usual in camland.

 

[Teagan]

So I am curious why Teagan doesn't think they are generally resellable

Cause as I said the crazy specific things most guys ask for in customs is not resellable. I get you guys dont see the paragraphs upon paragraphs we get requested but stuff like that is not something we can just easily edit and sell elsewhere. And specific requests are the majority of them and not the minority. So yes a lot of times we are out money and hours or days worth of work when we're scammed. It's not just edit a name here and there. And honestly I get the distinct impression you guys have no clue how long it takes to make vids for us and all the work that goes in to them. Saying were just out some money and have to do a few minor edits is completely untrue. Maybe it is cause most of the video talk is in MO so maybe that is our fault but when you're being told the facts I wouldnt just disagree with it and dismiss it.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Why do I get the feeling that not every member here knows what an escrow is lol?

Just in case...here's a summary. A date is set for when the video is delivered. The model sees the money has been sent by the member, but she won't get the money until the video is delivered. The member can cancel at any time. It really is a great system for making sure nobody gets screwed.

As a customer I'd be delighted with an escrow system. But so far only ELM, and MGF have been mentioned as having them and MFG was shit upon earlier in the thread.

 

[Ann_Sulu]

@HiGirlsRHot the reason why we often don't like the idea of trying to sell something that wasn't bought in the first place is because frankly...it often doesn't sell.

I realize I can't speak for every model, but I make way more off of my fetish porn than I do my vanilla porn. Vanilla porn is everywhere, so it makes more sense for them to send requests for fetish clips. On top of that the stuff that sells is generally very specific. If some guy tries to send me some troll request fetish video (yes, this has happened) then guess what? I have a video that nobody will buy Because it may have not been difficult to do, but it doesn't cater to any niche, and I wasted an amount of my time while feeling bad every time I see the video listed.

I have a few categories that I pretty much know will sell again. Everything else tends to be only one or two ever bought it.

Also, keep in mind that clip sites generally don't make near as much as camming. There's a reason why that site's called extralunchmoney. Not always, but often it may take months for some stores just to reach payout.

I can't think of a single time I've had a problem with ELM, but yeah MGF is sadly a very unprofessional site.

@zippypinhead I'm confused about where the distrust for escrows is coming from. Have you ever had issues with being scammed by escrows in the past?

 

[kylexy]

I think it's interesting to hear everyone's different thoughts about this, even though some minds are already made up and uncompromisable.

The idea of an escrow system sounds like a good solution imo. Hopefully more pages can offer this in the future.

 

[KylieJacobs]

The moral of the story is to either use an escrow service or find a model that you trust to make your custom content. At the end of the day, the model needs to do what she (or he) can to protect herself, and the member needs to do what he/she can to protect themselves as well!

@HiGirlsRHot There is also iWantClips where you can order a custom through their site. If the model doesn't upload the video to you by the deadline, you get your money back.

 

[zippypinhead]

@zippypinhead I'm confused about where the distrust for escrows is coming from. Have you ever had issues with being scammed by escrows in the past?

At what point did I say I distrusted escrows?

 

[Ann_Sulu]

It's because as long as people are out there who are willing to input their credit card info with their free hand, people are going to be put in the position of not actually watching out for both sides of the deal. And the cycle will continue, and disdain for one another will continue to be business as usual in camland.

I guess I just don't understand what you mean by this exactly.

The way this post read made it sound like you were saying you were either too burned with previous methods to try escrows, or perhaps you had tried them before with things turning out badly somehow.

 

[zippypinhead]

I guess I just don't understand what you mean by this exactly.

The way this post read made it sound like you were saying you were either too burned with previous methods to try escrows, or perhaps you had tried them before with things turning out badly somehow.

Sorry. I was speaking more in general terms, regarding a prevailing attitude in all this. I'll put it another way:

Because this sort of business is based so much on impulse buying, something that takes a bit of extra time and interaction, like escrow or payment plans, tends not to even be considered. People are making stupid purchasing decisions on both sides of the transaction, and so people on both sides of the transaction can get burned. It becomes cyclical, until it reaches the point where simple solutions that require a modicum of trust between two people are somehow radical ideas, and nothing other than all-or-nothing-right-now is acceptable.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I read Zippy's comments as meaning. The current system where members pay 100% up front is working fine for camgirls cause horny guys thinking with their small brain are willing to go along with the system. There really isn't much of an incentive for an individual camgirl to do anything differently. Of course what we don't know is how many guys having been burned a few times simply stop buying thus reducing overall income for all camgirls.

X-posted what zippy said.

 

[Ann_Sulu]

Sorry. I was speaking more in general terms, regarding a prevailing attitude in all this. I'll put it another way:

Because this sort of business is based so much on impulse buying, something that takes a bit of extra time and interaction, like escrow or payment plans, tends not to even be considered. People are making stupid purchasing decisions on both sides of the transaction, and so people on both sides of the transaction can get burned. It becomes cyclical, until it reaches the point where simple solutions that require a modicum of trust between two people are somehow radical ideas, and nothing other than all-or-nothing-right-now is acceptable.

Ah ok, yeah very true. Yeah, I wish there were some way to better inform members before they wind up in a thread like this. :/