ACF 2012 Presidential Election Poll

[tubby556]

Okay. Just wanted to know who I was talking to. What about "the life of the mother?"

What about it? That's not my choice to make. It's her life, her choice. I just don't want my tax dollars paying for her choice in how to care for her body. That's not my responsibility to care for her life. It's her own responsibility to care for her own life.

 

[Nordling]

Okay. Just wanted to know who I was talking to. What about "the life of the mother?"

What about it? That's not my choice to make. It's her life, her choice. I just don't want my tax dollars paying for her choice in how to care for her body. That's not my responsibility to care for her life. It's her own responsibility to care for her own life.

Ah! Okay. So it's not about abortion per se, am I right? If someone contracts cancer, it's their choice to get treatment and they should pay for it, right?

 

[tubby556]

Ah! Okay. So it's not about abortion per se, am I right?

Abortion isn't the issue for me, it's who pays the bill. Abortion is a woman's right without question. She should also pay for that procedure, not the tax payers. That's my point.

If someone contracts cancer, it's their choice to get treatment and they should pay for it, right?

Yes. Matter of fact, my grandmother has pancreatic and liver cancer. Started to spread. Might not make it to Christmas. She elected to let it run its course. She can afford the surgery to remove the tumors, but she neglected. Let it run its course. It would only buy a few more months that isn't guaranteed either.

 

[Nordling]

Ah! Okay. So it's not about abortion per se, am I right?

Abortion isn't the issue for me, it's who pays the bill. Abortion is a woman's right without question. She should also pay for that procedure, not the tax payers. That's my point.

If someone contracts cancer, it's their choice to get treatment and they should pay for it, right?

Yes. Matter of fact, my grandmother has pancreatic and liver cancer. Started to spread. Might not make it to Christmas. She elected to let it run its course. She can afford the surgery to remove the tumors, but she neglected. Let it run its course. It would only buy a few more months that isn't guaranteed either.

You seem to be avoiding the flow of the conversation. Moving the goal post even. When I say cancer treatment, I mean cases with a strong possibility of cure. In essence, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're a libertarian of some sort...whether you use the label or not. We really can't continue the discussion if so...because the discussion is no longer about abortion or cancer or any choices...it's about fundamental ideology. And that's for another thread.

 

[tubby556]

You seem to be avoiding the flow of the conversation.

Not intentional. Just answering questions as they arise and sticking to my opinion.

When I say cancer treatment, I mean cases with a strong possibility of cure.

Even then. Pay your own way. If you have insurance to assist, great. That's the entire point of health insurance and why it's not utilized as that is beyond me.

In essence, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're a libertarian of some sort...whether you use the label or not. We really can't continue the discussion if so...because the discussion is no longer about abortion or cancer or any choices...it's about fundamental ideology. And that's for another thread.

Republican with Libertarian influence in certain areas, not all. Some well versed in political science refer to me as a moderate Republican. Feel free to PM me about that topic, though I'm not on here much, but sporadically. Weekdays are better than weekends, as weekends are family time.

 

[Jupiter551]

Heh, well something does, because the UK has more people than the state of wisconsin (crime central USA huh?) and less murders per year than wisconsin. Btw not just gun murders, ANY murders. Look it up. I'm not trying to fool you, I'm quite happy living in a society where murders aren't on the news every night.

This coming from someone who lives in a country settled and founded by criminals. Crime rates went up significantly after your gun control laws went into effect. Violence went up, not with firearms, but with other weapons reported as knives, clubs, bats, and chains. The violence didn't decrease overall, it increased in other weapon categories.

A) My country wasn't settled or founded by convicts, it was settled by Aboriginals over 40,000 years ago
B) Is it supposed to be insulting to me that Australia was used (for a brief period) as a penal colony? I'm proud of my ancestors, coming from poverty, some transported willingly and some unwillingly across the world and starting a new life in a strange and distant land.
C) If you're going to quote statistics at me about my own country at least have the decency to post supporting evidence. Preferably from a credible source like police.

 

[Nordling]

Some libertarians are great people. But with that said, I don't want one in charge of the government. "Libertarianism" has the same relationship with "liberty" as Scientology has with science. I have learned that arguing with either a Libertarian or an Objectivist always ends up in a circular debate; it's difficult to argue with someone who holds to an "ism" which has at it's core "selfishness."

There are left libertarians, but they have little in common with right libertarians.

 

[Jupiter551]

I like to think of myself as a libertine.

 

[BullFrogBlues]

I thought the Libertines were quite a good band...

 

[Anonymous]

Your opinion of me is based on falsehoods.

I just call it like I see it.

I also don't eat popcorn. I prefer grilled corn on the cob.

How wonderful.

 

[tubby556]

Medical care needs to actually be affordable to the average taxpaying American if we are all expected to medically "care for our own lives" or die.

Yes and we do that by utilizing insurance as it was intended. The current system of insurance has a lot to do with why healthcare is so expensive. So is the costly process of research. Yes we need to care for our own lives or die. It's called life. We are responsible for ours. No one else is responsible for taking care of us.

 

[tubby556]

C) If you're going to quote statistics at me about my own country at least have the decency to post supporting evidence. Preferably from a credible source like police.

This is common knowledge to a lot of Americans I'm shocked you don't know this about your own country. Same in the UK. Gun control went up, so did crime.

http://www.wnd.com/2000/03/1933/

 

[tubby556]

Some libertarians are great people. But with that said, I don't want one in charge of the government. "Libertarianism" has the same relationship with "liberty" as Scientology has with science. I have learned that arguing with either a Libertarian or an Objectivist always ends up in a circular debate; it's difficult to argue with someone who holds to an "ism" which has at it's core "selfishness."

There are left libertarians, but they have little in common with right libertarians.

Nevada is perhaps the most Libertarian influenced state, and overall it isn't doing so well in many areas. There are many things of the Libertarian persuasion that I find laughable, mostly because I really, really like roadways. The Libertarian policy in that regard will never work.

 

[sweetiebatman]

C) If you're going to quote statistics at me about my own country at least have the decency to post supporting evidence. Preferably from a credible source like police.

This is common knowledge to a lot of Americans I'm shocked you don't know this about your own country. Same in the UK. Gun control went up, so did crime.

http://www.wnd.com/2000/03/1933/

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

Some actual statistics to mull over rather than the limited link posted :thumbleft:

 

[MrRodry]

:lol:

 

[JickyJuly]

The portion of help that Planned Parenthood gets from the government is NOT allowed to be used to subsidize abortion. The purpose of Planned Parenthood is NOT to act as an abortion clinic. Their main goal is to educate people about responsible sex and make sexual healthcare affordable to the masses in an effort to curb STDs, STIs and unwanted pregnancy. Sure, it's great to say everyone should pay full price for their contraceptive needs, but the cost of owning and operating a penis much less than what women deal with. Even a woman who abstains fully from sex can run into major problems with her reproductive organs any time after puberty. There are LOTS of things my tax dollars go to that I, personally, wouldn't be happy to fund. Womens health (which is FAR behind where it should be in our country) and educating idiots into not reproducing or spreading disease seems like a weird place to try to draw the line.

If a woman gets raped and doesn't want to bear the child, abort it, pay for it, then buy a gun and get training on situational awareness. Crime can be prevented. Criminals prefer unarmed victims. Don't be one. Some asshole tries to rape you, kill him and make fucking sure he's dead so he can't victimize some other woman in the same way he did you.

So your advice to a woman who has been assaulted is don't get raped again? :roll: Rape can be prevented. It can be prevented by teaching men that they don't have the right to treat women like blow up dolls. It can be prevented by making the laws harsher and not treating the victims like they somehow brought it upon themselves or should have been able to find a way to disarm their attackers. This "boys will be boys and women should be more prepared" attitude IS the problem.

 

[mynameisbob84]

If a woman gets raped and doesn't want to bear the child, abort it, pay for it, then buy a gun and get training on situational awareness. Crime can be prevented. Criminals prefer unarmed victims. Don't be one. Some asshole tries to rape you, kill him and make fucking sure he's dead so he can't victimize some other woman in the same way he did you.

So your advice to a woman who has been assaulted is don't get raped again? :roll: Rape can be prevented. It can be prevented by teaching men that they don't have the right to treat women like blow up dolls. It can be prevented by making the laws harsher and not treating the victims like they somehow brought it upon themselves or should have been able to find a way to disarm their attackers. This "boys will be boys and women should be more prepared" attitude IS the problem.

I've only been skimming and may have missed some important context (I'm too lazy to look back) but yeah, to suggest that it's up to a woman to not get raped as opposed to it being a man's responsibility to, you know, not rape people, is kinda ludicrous.

 

[Nordling]

C) If you're going to quote statistics at me about my own country at least have the decency to post supporting evidence. Preferably from a credible source like police.

This is common knowledge to a lot of Americans I'm shocked you don't know this about your own country. Same in the UK. Gun control went up, so did crime.

http://www.wnd.com/2000/03/1933/

World Net Daily? You're kidding, right? May as well use The Fascist Times to get information.

 

[mynameisbob84]

C) If you're going to quote statistics at me about my own country at least have the decency to post supporting evidence. Preferably from a credible source like police.

This is common knowledge to a lot of Americans I'm shocked you don't know this about your own country. Same in the UK. Gun control went up, so did crime.

http://www.wnd.com/2000/03/1933/

World Net Daily? You're kidding, right? May as well use The Fascist Times to get information.

Plus, there's different levels of crime. I would much rather see a thousand shops get looted than one gun massacre in which dozens of people lose their life.

 

[Jupiter551]

C) If you're going to quote statistics at me about my own country at least have the decency to post supporting evidence. Preferably from a credible source like police.

This is common knowledge to a lot of Americans I'm shocked you don't know this about your own country. Same in the UK. Gun control went up, so did crime.

http://www.wnd.com/2000/03/1933/

it isn't common knowledge, it's common pro-gun propaganda which is exactly why you know all about it while in our own countries we can still leave our front doors unlocked most of the time.

 

[Nordling]

 

[Jupiter551]

:lol:

hah say what you will but Obama is a charming, charismatic speaker that was great.

 

[Bocefish]

hah say what you will but Obama is a charming, charismatic speaker that was great.

Without a teleprompter or a prepared speech, he's a bumbling idiot:

Obama responded: 'Here's what I’ll say. If four Americans get killed, it’s not optimal.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z29mw7pVlV

 

[Jupiter551]

hah say what you will but Obama is a charming, charismatic speaker that was great.

Without a teleprompter or a prepared speech, he's a bumbling idiot:

Obama responded: 'Here's what I’ll say. If four Americans get killed, it’s not optimal.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z29mw7pVlV

did you actually watch the speech above? he definitely didn't have a teleprompter, and he was cracking jokes, it was seamless, funny...

 

[Bocefish]

hah say what you will but Obama is a charming, charismatic speaker that was great.

Without a teleprompter or a prepared speech, he's a bumbling idiot:

Obama responded: 'Here's what I’ll say. If four Americans get killed, it’s not optimal.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z29mw7pVlV

did you actually watch the speech above? he definitely didn't have a teleprompter, and he was cracking jokes, it was seamless, funny...

Yes I saw it but the jokes were written for him, all he had to do is memorize them. When he has to think and talk on his own, he ums and errs and says shit like he did last night about the 4 dead Americans.

 

[Bocefish]

CIA found militant links a day after Libya attack


Oct 19, 3:28 AM (ET)

By KIMBERLY DOZIER

(AP) In this Sept. 13, 2012 file photo, a Libyan man investigates the inside of the U.S....
Full Image


WASHINGTON (AP) - The CIA station chief in Libya reported to Washington within 24 hours of last month's deadly attack on the U.S. Consulate that there was evidence it was carried out by militants, not a spontaneous mob upset about an American-made video ridiculing Islam's Prophet Muhammad, U.S. officials have told The Associated Press.
It is unclear who, if anyone, saw the cable outside the CIA at that point and how high up in the agency the information went. The Obama administration maintained publicly for a week that the attack on the diplomatic mission in Benghazi that killed U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans was a result of the mobs that staged less-deadly protests across the Muslim world around the 11th anniversary of the 9/11 terror attacks on the U.S.

Those statements have become highly charged political fodder as the presidential election approaches. A Republican-led House committee questioned State Department officials for hours about what GOP lawmakers said was lax security at the consulate, given the growth of extremist Islamic militants in North Africa.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20121019/DA20G2701.html

 

[Jupiter551]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I understood from day 1 that there was a militant, deliberate attack under the guise of protest, or a protest had been stirred up to mask an attack - but even if there wasn't a mob I never for one second thought we were being told it was just some kind of spontaneous protest-turned riot lol.

 

[Bocefish]

Obama and his Administration said for weeks that the Benghazi attack was due to the video.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I understood from day 1 that there was a militant, deliberate attack under the guise of protest, or a protest had been stirred up to mask an attack - but even if there wasn't a mob I never for one second thought we were being told it was just some kind of spontaneous protest-turned riot lol.

Well most of us that were paying attention thought it was that. In fact the Libyan president said so the next day. However, I watched UN amb. Susan Rice go on two (she went on 4) Sunday news shows and explain that while we aren't 100% sure, we think the attack was reaction to the video. The conservative columnists, like George Will were pretty incredulous, but that is what the Amb. Rice said. I urge you to Google the Amb. interviews on those shows.

Now there are good political reasons why you would want to try to downplay the murder of a US Amb. on the anniversary of 9/11 by an terrorist group.
Being able to scapegoat a video which had been viewed a total of 2,000 times prior to the attack (I don't know about the Arab translations) is awfully convenient.
Unfortunately for the Obama administration the story quickly unraveled.

 

[Jupiter551]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I understood from day 1 that there was a militant, deliberate attack under the guise of protest, or a protest had been stirred up to mask an attack - but even if there wasn't a mob I never for one second thought we were being told it was just some kind of spontaneous protest-turned riot lol.

Well most of us that were paying attention thought it was that. In fact the Libyan president said so the next day. However, I watched UN amb. Susan Rice go on two (she went on 4) Sunday news shows and explain that while we aren't 100% sure, we think the attack was reaction to the video. The conservative columnists, like George Will were pretty incredulous, but that is what the Amb. Rice said. I urge you to Google the Amb. interviews on those shows.

Now there are good political reasons why you would want to try to downplay the murder of a US Amb. on the anniversary of 9/11 by an terrorist group.
Being able to scapegoat a video which had been viewed a total of 2,000 times prior to the attack (I don't know about the Arab translations) is awfully convenient.
Unfortunately for the Obama administration the story quickly unraveled.

I suppose, I think most people I know whose reaction I gauged were more concerned about the act than whatever pretext it was committed under. Even when we thought it was something to do with a video, didn't we all still believe a video isn't even the slightest excuse? The killing of 4 people because they represent a foreign country is an act of terrorism whether it's because of a video, a book, or whatever. It doesn't make it any more or less horrible or evil whether there was some kind of protest used as cover for a planned attack or simply a planned attack.

If an administration lied about the circumstances of the attack to minimise political fallout during an election I'm not defending that at all, BUT it's ridiculous to turn THAT into more of an issue than the attack itself.