AmberCutie's Forum
An adult community for cam models and members to discuss all the things!

ACF 2012 Presidential Election Poll

  • ** WARNING - ACF CONTAINS ADULT CONTENT **
    Only persons aged 18 or over may read or post to the forums, without regard to whether an adult actually owns the registration or parental/guardian permission. AmberCutie's Forum (ACF) is for use by adults only and contains adult content. By continuing to use this site you are confirming that you are at least 18 years of age.

2012 U.S. Presidential Poll Vote

  • Obama

    Votes: 109 66.5%
  • Romney

    Votes: 27 16.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 6 3.7%
  • Obligatory Other

    Votes: 22 13.4%

  • Total voters
    164
Status
Not open for further replies.
Nordling said:
What does Bill Clinton's blow job have to do with a scummy Time Share mogul? Yeah, Bill Clinton did something really stupid and he should have resigned; much as I liked him as a President, it would have been better if he had. Be that as it may, it was NOT an impeachable offense...neither was him lying about it. Lying about a blow job does not count as treason or sedition. Conservatives tend to be more interested in destruction than in governing.
I don't think he should have resigned over it, but I agree with you on everything else.

Plus the Republicans would have a lot more credibility if they reacted the same way when one of their guys is caught doing something as bad or worse. Vitter got revealed to be a client of the D.C. Madam and not only is he still in office he's still headlining fund raisers for the party.
 
morment said:
Nordling said:
What does Bill Clinton's blow job have to do with a scummy Time Share mogul? Yeah, Bill Clinton did something really stupid and he should have resigned; much as I liked him as a President, it would have been better if he had. Be that as it may, it was NOT an impeachable offense...neither was him lying about it. Lying about a blow job does not count as treason or sedition. Conservatives tend to be more interested in destruction than in governing.
I don't think he should have resigned over it, but I agree with you on everything else.

Plus the Republicans would have a lot more credibility if they reacted the same way when one of their guys is caught doing something as bad or worse. Vitter got revealed to be a client of the D.C. Madam and not only is he still in office he's still headlining fund raisers for the party.
Exactly...or why didn't they boot out Larry Craig? Yeah, they asked him to...but lamely.
 
Kradek said:
Just tossing some meat into the dog fighting pit.


Oh this is interesting! Let's see:

Gave for Obama:

Communications
Electronics
Layers
Lobbyists
Health

Gave for Romney:

Energy
Natural Resources
Agribusiness
Finance
Insurance
Real Estate


So the people who gave to Romney are the people who mostly just care about themselves, and the people who gave to Obama are mostly the people who actually know what the fuck is going on.
 
LadyLuna said:
Kradek said:
Just tossing some meat into the dog fighting pit.


Oh this is interesting! Let's see:

Gave for Obama:

Communications
Electronics
Layers
Lobbyists
Health

Gave for Romney:

Energy
Natural Resources
Agribusiness
Finance
Insurance
Real Estate


So the people who gave to Romney are the people who mostly just care about themselves, and the people who gave to Obama are mostly the people who actually know what the fuck is going on.

Yeah and check out how much Utah gave, like 3rd or 4th highest. I wonder who their money is going to. Romney's contributions primarily come from big business and the wealthy - ie the people who generally benefit the most when someone like him gets in office. A much larger share of Obama's come from small, private citizen donations - take that how you wish but to me that suggests real, working class people who actually give a damn. To me that's more heart.
 
(I know I could've posted this earlier, but... well, I didn't think this would bother me as much as it has.)

From MrRodry's post:

The CEO Who Built Himself America’s Largest House Just Threatened to Fire His Employees if Obama’s Elected
Hamilton Nolan

(snip out the irrelevant shit)

"The Queen of Versailles" depicts the dashing of Siegel's mansion dreams after the recession hit. But just months ago, he restarted construction on his personal Palace of Versailles (with the intention of selling it for $100 million) and told Reuters, "We're the most profitable we've ever been."

Huge mansion. Huge fortune. Profitable company. What could David Siegal have to complain about? Well, the demonization of the 1% by Barack Obama, for one thing. This truly amazing email went out to all Westgate employees yesterday. Bolding is ours.

Subject: Message from David Siegel
Date:Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:58:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: [David Siegel]
To: [All employees]

To All My Valued Employees,

(snip out the veiled threats and whining)
Here is what most people don't understand and the press and our Government has chosen to ignore – to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy.

Signed, your boss,

David Siegel

http://gawker.com/5950189/the-ceo-who-b ... as-elected[/quote]

While the business owners do create the jobs... if the middle class doesn't have any spending money, there will be no one to buy the services those jobs are for. Therefore, the jobs will have to be cut because there isn't enough business.

So who does the economy rest on? THE MIDDLE CLASS. Support the middle class and you support the economy. Support the people who are almost but not quite middle class, and you support the economy by helping them get to the point where they can spend.

Supporting the rich doesn't give the middle class any spending money. Most of the rich saves whatever excess they earn. So letting them keep more of their money simply means their savings accounts get bigger, and doesn't really generate new jobs.
 
Jupiter551 said:
Was any country EVER united over politics? I doubt it.

The point is to not let our differences divide us, not to be united in our beliefs.
 
Airwolfe said:
Are we ever going to be united again or are we just going to stay divided as a nation?

I'm sick of fighting.

[YouTube clip of Kid Rock and Sean Penn movie "Americans"]

There's a different ACF thread about moves you've sobbed through.

While I didn't sob uncontrollably, I did get a little misty-eyed during the montage. :shhh:
 
A little (actually a lot) more about Romney's "selfless" service as a missionary in France:

CNN Airs The Most Ridiculous Statement I’ve Ever Seen On Television VIDEO by Tommy Christopher

10:38 am, August 28th, 2012

When a friend tweeted me about a line from CNN’s Romney Revealed documentary, I thought he must have misheard or paraphrased it, but as it turns out, Gloria Borger‘s narration of the Mitt Romney profile really did contain the most ridiculous sentence I’ve ever heard on television, so ridiculous that I’m half-suspicious CNN is actually a cabal of master satirists who are making fun of the Republican presidential candidate.

The portion of the documentary in question covers Mitt Romney’s stint as a door-to-door Mormon recruiter in 1968 France, a duty which helped him to avoid military service in Vietnam. Earlier in the doc, narrator and interviewer Gloria Borger glossed over the fact that Romney sought, and received, four deferments during the Vietnam War (and later lied about it), instead saying simply that he was “exempt as a student, and with a high draft number.”

The doc also notes, as an example of Romney “becoming his own man,” that he protested in favor of the draft that he so skillfully avoided, before moving on to the time he spent in France, a time that Romney once described as “tough” because the French were “not happy to see Americans, because we were in Vietnam at the time.”

Yes, you heard that right. Not only did Mitt Romney protest in favor of sending other people’s children to die in Vietnam, even as he avoided service himself, he then complained about how those dying Americans made it “tough” for him while he was in France avoiding service.

Perhaps to avoid charges of bias, the documentary steers clear of these contradictions, but then takes the whitewashing to blindingly absurd levels by introducing the next segment with the aforementioned most ridiculous statement I’ve ever seen on television. “In 1968, France was a dangerous place to be for a 21-year-old American,” Borger says, “but Mitt Romney was right in the middle of it.”

Read the whole piece:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnn-airs-the-most-ridiculous-statement-ive-ever-seen-on-television/
 
So what? Everything Romney did was 100% legal. Thousands of other college students were also deferred. If his family wasn't so heavily into mormonism, I might be suspiscious about his missionary duties too, but it's common practice for his religion that 19 year old males do the same thing. In other words, it's a blown up non-issue lefties keep bringing up trying to make an issue of in order to avoid talking about Obama's failures.
 
Bocefish said:
So what? Everything Romney did was 100% legal. Thousands of other college students were also deferred. If his family wasn't so heavily into mormonism, I might be suspiscious about his missionary duties too, but it's common practice for his religion that 19 year old males do the same thing. In other words, it's a blown up non-issue lefties keep bringing up trying to make an issue of in order to avoid talking about Obama's failures.

It just shows he had no problems with people dying in a unjust war he supported, while he had a chief preparing his meals in a mansion located in France. Missionary work is so taxing. It was so taxing that they discourage the people who were over there with Romney from talking about it, I guess to prevent flashbacks.
 
Shaun__ said:
Bocefish said:
So what? Everything Romney did was 100% legal. Thousands of other college students were also deferred. If his family wasn't so heavily into mormonism, I might be suspiscious about his missionary duties too, but it's common practice for his religion that 19 year old males do the same thing. In other words, it's a blown up non-issue lefties keep bringing up trying to make an issue of in order to avoid talking about Obama's failures.

It just shows he had no problems with people dying in a unjust war he supported, while he had a chief preparing his meals in a mansion located in France. Missionary work is so taxing. It was so taxing that they discourage the people who were over there with Romney from talking about it, I guess to prevent flashbacks.
100% legal? Yeah. Moral to protest in favour of a war you actively dodge? Heh. No.

Yeah. Mormon young adults do commonly go do missions at that age. It's also common for them to do them later. He said somewhere that he wanted to go to Vietnam, that he wished he could have. Well, the fact is he could have, and if he'd come back alive (I'm sure daddy would have seen him stationed somewhere safe anyway) he could have done his mission and no one in his church would have blinked an eye.

Here's what I find a little...convenient shall we say.

The draft lottery didn't begin until 1971.

In the years beforehand (since WW1 I believe) any male over the age of 18 could be drafted and during wartime (drafting started in I believe 1965 or 66 for Vietnam) were required to report to their local draft office for classification. Exemptions existed for professions like police officers, church ministers, etc. Deferment was available for one (1) semester for college students. Deferment does not equal exemption.

As an unmarried male over the age of 18 Romney was in the most likely category to be drafted in a time when troop numbers, many of them conscripts or volunteers who joined from fear of conscription. He spent ONE year at Stanford (why? Stanford is one of the finest universities in the world, why leave?) getting deferred from the draft while he was there. Then he got an exemption as a minister (generally meant for actual ministers, you know, ones that studied at a seminary and lead a church, not mormons who call all their 19 year olds 'ministers), returned in 1969, promptly married, deferred again for study (not at Stanford this time but at the far less prestigious Mormon BYU), had a child in 1970 which effectively ended any chance of him being drafted (3-S - hardship on dependents category), then in 1971 the lottery was called and, like every adult between 18 and 26 he drew a number. If his number had been lower he still likely wouldn't have been drafted because he had a wife and kids (a second by 1971).

Yeah it's (mostly) by the book, except for the fact that most mormons didn't get granted a 4D exempt status for going on missions, and the church itself later disallowed it because it supported the Vietnam war, but it's also kinda sneaky and convenient.

Romney on Memorial Day:
romney_vietnam_rect-460x307.jpg
 
Bocefish said:
So what? Everything Romney did was 100% legal. Thousands of other college students were also deferred. If his family wasn't so heavily into mormonism, I might be suspiscious about his missionary duties too, but it's common practice for his religion that 19 year old males do the same thing. In other words, it's a blown up non-issue lefties keep bringing up trying to make an issue of in order to avoid talking about Obama's failures.

You mean like the blown up non-issues that righties keep bringing up? :roll:

Personally, I do not care if someone chooses to dodge the draft and use legal means. I do think you should be barred from government service after that, but that is just my opinion. They could have made some more non-issues for Romney and his missionary duties in France. Did you know a woman died while a passenger in the car Romney was driving and he blamed it on the priest driving the other car? Chappaquiddick Romney style or that is plausible that Romney is hiding that he was granted amnesty for tax dodging? Tax amnesty

What is a non-issue for one person, can mean everything to another.
 
Bocefish said:
In other words, it's a blown up non-issue lefties keep bringing up trying to make an issue of in order to avoid talking about Obama's failures.
Yea, like that flag poster...
 
Jupiter551 said:
The draft lottery didn't begin until 1971.

Wrong again, the draft lottery started in 1969.

University, France mission, marriage, and children: 1965–75
Romney attended Stanford University during the academic year of 1965–66.[17] He was not part of the counterculture of the 1960s then taking form in the San Francisco Bay Area.[17] In May 1966, he joined a counter-protest against a group staging a sit-in at the university administration building in opposition to draft status tests.[17][27] He continued to enjoy occasional pranks.[nb 2]

In July 1966, he left the U.S. for a thirty-month stay in France as a Mormon missionary,[17][30] a traditional rite of passage in his family.[nb 3] He arrived in Le Havre, where he faced physical and economic deprivation in cramped quarters.[10][32] Rules against drinking, smoking, and dating were strictly enforced.[10] Most individual Mormon missionaries do not gain many converts[nb 4] and Romney was no exception:[32] he later estimated ten to twenty for his entire mission.[37][nb 5] He initially became demoralized and later recalled it as the only time when "most of what I was trying to do was rejected."[32] He soon gained recognition within the mission for the many homes he called on and the repeat visits he was granted.[10] He was promoted to zone leader in Bordeaux in early 1968, and soon thereafter became assistant to the mission president in Paris.[10][32][39] At the Mission Home, he enjoyed far more comfortable accommodations than he previously had elsewhere in the country.[39] When the French expressed opposition to the U.S. role in the Vietnam War, Romney debated them in return, and their hostility on the subject reinforced Romney's support for the U.S. effort.[10][32]


Mitt's father George (pictured here in a 1968 poster) lost the Republican presidential nomination to Richard M. Nixon but later served in Nixon's cabinet.

Mitt's mother Lenore (promoted here on a button) lost a Senate race in 1970, and he worked for her campaign.
In June 1968, an automobile he was driving in southern France was hit by another vehicle, seriously injuring him and killing one of his passengers, the wife of the mission president.[nb 6] Romney was not at fault in the accident.[nb 6] He became co-president of a mission that had become demoralized and disorganized after the May 1968 general strike and student uprisings and the car accident.[40] With Romney rallying the others, the mission met a goal of 200 baptisms for the year, the most for them in a decade.[40] By the end of his stint in December 1968, he was overseeing the work of 175 others.[32][41] As a result of his stay, Romney developed a lifelong affection for France and its people, and continued to be fluent in French.[43][44]

At their first meeting following his return, Romney and Ann Davies reconnected and decided to get married.[45] Romney began attending Brigham Young University (BYU), where she had been studying.[46] The couple married on March 21, 1969, in a civil ceremony in Bloomfield Hills.[47][48] The following day, they flew to Utah for a Mormon wedding ceremony at the Salt Lake Temple (Ann had converted to the faith while he was away).[47][48]

Mitt had missed much of the tumultuous American anti-Vietnam War movement while away in France. Upon his return, it surprised him to learn that his father had joined the movement during his unsuccessful 1968 presidential campaign.[32] George was now serving in President Richard Nixon's cabinet as United States Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. In a June 1970 newspaper profile of children of cabinet members, Mitt said that U.S. involvement in the war had been misguided – "If it wasn't a political blunder to move into Vietnam, I don't know what is" – but supported Nixon's ongoing Cambodian Incursion as a sincere attempt to bring the war to a conclusion.[49] At that time there was a military draft; Romney had initially received two 2-S student deferments, then, like most Mormon missionaries, a 4-D ministerial deferment while in France, and then two more student deferments.[27][50] When those ran out, the result of the December 1969 draft lottery ensured he would not be selected.[27][50][51]

At culturally conservative BYU, Romney remained isolated from much of the upheaval of that era.[32][46] He became president of the Cougar Club booster organization and showed a new-found discipline in his studies.[32][46] During his senior year, he took a leave to work as driver and advance man for his mother Lenore Romney's eventually unsuccessful 1970 campaign for U.S. Senator from Michigan;[22][47] together, they visited all 83 Michigan counties.[52][53] He earned a Bachelor of Arts in English with highest honors, in 1971,[46] giving commencement addresses to both the College of Humanities and to the whole of BYU.[nb 7]

The Romneys' first son, Taggart, was born in 1970[34] while they were undergraduates at BYU and living in a basement apartment.[46] Ann subsequently gave birth to Matthew (1971) and Joshua (1975). Benjamin (1978) and Craig (1981) would arrive later, after Romney began his business career.[34]

Mitt Romney wanted to pursue a business path, but his father advised him that a law degree would be valuable to his career even if he did not become a lawyer.[56][57] Thus, he enrolled in the recently created joint Juris Doctor/Master of Business Administration four-year program coordinated between Harvard Law School and Harvard Business School.[58] He readily adapted to the business school's pragmatic, data-driven case study method of teaching.[57] Living in a Belmont, Massachusetts, house with Ann and their two children, his social experience in college differed from most of his classmates.[47][57] He was nonideological and did not involve himself in the political issues of the day.[47][57] He graduated in 1975 cum laude from the law school, in the top third of that class, and was named a Baker Scholar for graduating in the top five percent of his business school class.[54][58]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_Romne ... E2.80.9375
 
Bocefish said:
Jupiter551 said:
The draft lottery didn't begin until 1971.

Wrong again, the draft lottery started in 1969.
Yes, my mistake, why did you post that wikipedia section? Doesn't explain why he did 2 semesters at stanford, then when his deferments ran out gained an exemption and went to france, gained 2 more deferments upon his return, married as quickly as possible, and began having children immediately (admittedly a mormon trait, also a common draft-dodging tactic).

The fact of the matter is, for the majority of the time he was likely to ever be drafted, he used every possible tactic to avoid it.
 
Romney married and started a family all to avoid the draft? If that's what people believe, they probably need professional help.

Instead of uselessly harping over conspiracy draft theories from some 50 years ago, how about joining the present.

Obama lied, Americans died and the MSM tried to help him cover it up. Anyone with military experience knew the attack on the Consulate was not some protest against a stupid movie! Obama is incompetent as POTUS, PERIOD!

 
Bocefish said:
Romney married and started a family all to avoid the draft? If that's what people believe, they probably need professional help.

Instead of uselessly harping over conspiracy draft theories from some 50 years ago, how about joining the present.

Obama lied, Americans died and the MSM tried to help him cover it up. Anyone with military experience knew the attack on the Consulate was not some protest against a stupid movie! Obama is incompetent as POTUS, PERIOD!


WAIT! Obama attacked the embassy?! Where was Mittens in his magic underpants to defend them!
 
Jupiter551 said:
Shaun__ said:
Bocefish said:
So what? Everything Romney did was 100% legal. Thousands of other college students were also deferred. If his family wasn't so heavily into mormonism, I might be suspiscious about his missionary duties too, but it's common practice for his religion that 19 year old males do the same thing. In other words, it's a blown up non-issue lefties keep bringing up trying to make an issue of in order to avoid talking about Obama's failures.

It just shows he had no problems with people dying in a unjust war he supported, while he had a chief preparing his meals in a mansion located in France. Missionary work is so taxing. It was so taxing that they discourage the people who were over there with Romney from talking about it, I guess to prevent flashbacks.
100% legal? Yeah. Moral to protest in favour of a war you actively dodge? Heh. No.

Yeah. Mormon young adults do commonly go do missions at that age. It's also common for them to do them later. He said somewhere that he wanted to go to Vietnam, that he wished he could have. Well, the fact is he could have, and if he'd come back alive (I'm sure daddy would have seen him stationed somewhere safe anyway) he could have done his mission and no one in his church would have blinked an eye.

Here's what I find a little...convenient shall we say.

The draft lottery didn't begin until 1971.

In the years beforehand (since WW1 I believe) any male over the age of 18 could be drafted and during wartime (drafting started in I believe 1965 or 66 for Vietnam) were required to report to their local draft office for classification. Exemptions existed for professions like police officers, church ministers, etc. Deferment was available for one (1) semester for college students. Deferment does not equal exemption.

As an unmarried male over the age of 18 Romney was in the most likely category to be drafted in a time when troop numbers, many of them conscripts or volunteers who joined from fear of conscription. He spent ONE year at Stanford (why? Stanford is one of the finest universities in the world, why leave?) getting deferred from the draft while he was there. Then he got an exemption as a minister (generally meant for actual ministers, you know, ones that studied at a seminary and lead a church, not mormons who call all their 19 year olds 'ministers), returned in 1969, promptly married, deferred again for study (not at Stanford this time but at the far less prestigious Mormon BYU), had a child in 1970 which effectively ended any chance of him being drafted (3-S - hardship on dependents category), then in 1971 the lottery was called and, like every adult between 18 and 26 he drew a number. If his number had been lower he still likely wouldn't have been drafted because he had a wife and kids (a second by 1971).

Yeah it's (mostly) by the book, except for the fact that most mormons didn't get granted a 4D exempt status for going on missions, and the church itself later disallowed it because it supported the Vietnam war, but it's also kinda sneaky and convenient.

This is pretty accurate except for a couple of things. First the most common age that LDS member do their mission work is between 19 and 21. So Mitt was doing nothing out of the ordinary. Second the missionary exemptions were granted to all religions, Catholic and Protestant alike and were for typically two years so he didn't even need a second deferment.
Now you might not think that missionaries are real ministers, but the Supreme Court disagrees. The court has traditionally granted religion wide discretion to set their own qualifications for a minister. In fact in a recent case SCOTUS allowed the Luthern church to classify a teacher as a minister. By treating her as minister they were able to fire her when she was diagnosed with narcolepsy. She sued under the American with disability act, but the Supreme Court bared her suit. So if a teacher who occasionally takes part in prayer activities is a minister, than surely 19 year old Mormon kid knocking door to door in France selling the Book of Mormon would qualify.

As far Vietnam draft dodging goes I think Romney is more understandable than Joe Biden (or Dick Cheney) who both received 5 student deferments during the war and hell of lot better than outright deception Bill Clinton engaged in.

Thankfully this should be the last election Vietnam will come up.
 
HiGirlsRHot said:
Second the missionary exemptions were granted to all religions, Catholic and Protestant alike and were for typically two years so he didn't even need a second deferment.
I don't know, but not according to the Associated Press:
AP politely says his story has “evolved,” but tracks the puzzling changes. Running for president in 2007, Romney told the Boston Globe, “I longed in many respects to actually be in Vietnam and be representing our country there, and in some ways it was frustrating not to feel like I was there as part of the troops that were fighting in Vietnam.”

But in 1994, running against Ted Kennedy for his Massachusetts Senate seat while in his “I’m not a typical Republican” phase, he admitted “it was not my desire to go off and serve in Vietnam.” Fair enough: His father, George Romney, turned against the war, and so did a lot of Republicans (even if party hawks would later try to hang the “loss” of Vietnam on the antiwar left and their Democratic enablers). Indeed, in 1970, at 23, Romney told the Globe, ”If it wasn’t a political blunder to move into Vietnam, I don’t know what is.”

But while telling the truth about his lack of “desire to go off and serve” in 1994, Romney lied again, telling the Boston Herald he didn’t “take any actions to remove myself from the pool of young men who were eligible for the draft.” That’s absolutely not true. He got his first deferment while at Stanford University, where in his prep-school prankster phase he counter-protested a Vietnam draft protest. That’s another lie, in a way: While posing as pro-draft and pro-war, he was evading the draft with an “activity in study” deferment. After his freshman year, he got deferment status as “a minister of religion or divinity student,” which he’d keep while working in France as a missionary for his Mormon church.

Yet the AP reveals that other young Mormons were denied that deferment. And since the church itself strongly supported the war, its leaders eventually limited such deferments, but Romney kept his.

After his religious deferment, he got another academic deferment to finish school. By the time he was draft eligible, troop numbers were declining, and his lottery number was never called.
 
Jupiter551 said:
Yet the AP reveals that other young Mormons were denied that deferment. And since the church itself strongly supported the war, its leaders eventually limited such deferments, but Romney kept his.

After his religious deferment, he got another academic deferment to finish school. By the time he was draft eligible, troop numbers were declining, and his lottery number was never called.

70% of Utah is Mormon, obviously they couldn't grant as many to certain areas, but Romney was from Michigan. Of course, understanding that would require common sense.
 
Jupiter551 said:
Bocefish said:
Instead of uselessly harping over conspiracy draft theories from some 50 years ago, how about joining the present.

Obama lied, Americans died and the MSM tried to help him cover it up. Anyone with military experience knew the attack on the Consulate was not some protest against a stupid movie! Obama is incompetent as POTUS, PERIOD!


WAIT! Obama attacked the embassy?! Where was Mittens in his magic underpants to defend them!


Nice. It's apparently a joke to you what happened at the Consulate.
 
Jupiter I noticed you completely ducked my point that Joe Biden received 5 student deferments. There have been suggestion that Joe started his long career of plagiarizing to stay in law school to avoid the draft, but I haven't seen anything that would qualify as proof. More over Joe's deferments were obtained at the height of the Vietnam war unlike Romney where the last two were at the tail end.

I was a kid/teenager during the Vietnam war. I have studied the subject extensive, I literally, to use Joe's favorite word, have bookshelf filled with books on Vietnam, talked to scores of Vietnam era vets as well as those who stayed home,Vietnam refugees and traveled to the region . The media has a bad habit of dividing Vietnam era young men into two categories, the gung ho types who went Vietnam either as volunteers or were drafted. These guys are either hero's to folks on the right or during the 60s and 70s baby killers to folks on the left, which has since evolved to being poor sheep who duped by their government. The other group is those who stayed behind. Those are either brave protestors standing up to their government fighting an illegal or immoral war, or cowardly draft dodgers letting other do the fighting or dying.

Reality is far more complex. There was a lot of ambiguous feelings among young men of the era. Many, I suggest a majority, felt deeply conflicted. In era when government trust was higher, and being raised by members of the greatest generation, many felt a patriotic duty to serve. On the other hand certainly by 1968, the war was very unpopular and many establishment figures were questioning the wisdom of being over there. For young men, like Cheney, Biden,and Romney the patriotic choice of sweating in the jungle of Vietnam while being shot at was far less appealing than staying in school and getting a college degree or do your religious duty. They didn't feel right protesting against the war, but also didn't feel patriotic enough to turn down the get out of Vietnam card, their country offered college kids. I don't think what any of the the three did is deserving of either praise or scorn and as character test for potential presidents not all that important. The problem was not their actions, but rather LBJ's cynical and craven political calculations. I thank god we have a volunteer army now.
 
HiGirlsRHot said:
Jupiter I noticed you completely ducked my point that Joe Biden received 5 student deferments. There have been suggestion that Joe started his long career of plagiarizing to stay in law school to avoid the draft, but I haven't seen anything that would qualify as proof. More over Joe's deferments were obtained at the height of the Vietnam war unlike Romney where the last two were at the tail end.

I was a kid/teenager during the Vietnam war. I have studied the subject extensive, I literally, to use Joe's favorite word, have bookshelf filled with books on Vietnam, talked to scores of Vietnam era vets as well as those who stayed home,Vietnam refugees and traveled to the region . The media has a bad habit of dividing Vietnam era young men into two categories, the gung ho types who went Vietnam either as volunteers or were drafted. These guys are either hero's to folks on the right or during the 60s and 70s baby killers to folks on the left, which has since evolved to being poor sheep who duped by their government. The other group is those who stayed behind. Those are either brave protestors standing up to their government fighting an illegal or immoral war, or cowardly draft dodgers letting other do the fighting or dying.

Reality is far more complex. There was a lot of ambiguous feelings among young men of the era. Many, I suggest a majority, felt deeply conflicted. In era when government trust was higher, and being raised by members of the greatest generation, many felt a patriotic duty to serve. On the other hand certainly by 1968, the war was very unpopular and many establishment figures were questioning the wisdom of being over there. For young men, like Cheney, Biden,and Romney the patriotic choice of sweating in the jungle of Vietnam while being shot at was far less appealing than staying in school and getting a college degree or do your religious duty. They didn't feel right protesting against the war, but also didn't feel patriotic enough to turn down the get out of Vietnam card, their country offered college kids. I don't think what any of the the three did is deserving of either praise or scorn and as character test for potential presidents not all that important. The problem was not their actions, but rather LBJ's cynical and craven political calculations. I thank god we have a volunteer army now.
It wasn't my intention to duck it, I actually don't fault anyone for not wanting to go to war - no sane person would - and if my brother or father were to be called to a war on foreign soil, without volunteering, that they had a good chance of dying in and no belief in the cause I would probably urge them NOT to go. For myself, I can't say. I'd like to think I'd do my patriotic duty but when it came right down to it I'd have to look at Vietnam, or Iraq for that matter, or Afghanistan, and ask just what the hell patriotism actually has to do with it. In any case, if one were eligible for draft you're right - it would be far more appealing to do something OTHER than go die in a foreign jungle. My question over Romney isn't so much to do with his deferments, as the fact I find it really scurrilous to go back and forth lying about wanting to have been there/having no desire to go/never actively seeking to remove himself from the pool of draftees etc.
---------------------------------------------
Bocefish: The loss of life at the Libyan Embassy attack is not a joke. What IS a joke is that a few pages back you attack repeatedly Obama for taking credit for something done by someone else (killing of Bin Laden by DEVGRU), but now you claim he's responsible for things done by someone else (terrorists) and failures to bring the full facts to light (CIA fuckup/misdirection).

You say this makes Obama a liar, what about Bush? Was HE a liar when he said, based on credible intelligence repeatedly provided to him saying the opposite, that there WERE WMDs in Iraq, and used that as a basis for war? That was afterall, according to Bush himself, the main basis on which he sold the war to your people and by consequence, mine. It was a fabrication at best, at worst it was a lie that started a war and cost countless lives, on all sides. I'm willing to be charitable and suggest his heart was in the right place, but he made a deadly gamble against good advice, and the common people paid for his loss.

So tell me, if Obama was given faulty intelligence which he then passed on, does that make him a liar? Does it make him anywhere near as bad as Bush who went AGAINST intelligence advice? Even if he had lied, (and Obama had nothing to gain by lying about protestors being there, and everything to lose if it came out that he lied) would it have brought back 3 lives anyway? Did it ever occur to you that during a sudden and brutal attack in which several were killed, there may have been some confused reports coming out of a country like Libya?
 
  • Like
Reactions: LadyLuna
Not trying to derail this convo but:

Is anyone else trying to watch the debate from Canada tonight and can point me in the direction of a good live stream? The Fox News stream I was hitching a ride on for the last debate appears to have been locked down!
 
Bocefish said:
Romney married and started a family all to avoid the draft? If that's what people believe, they probably need professional help.

Instead of uselessly harping over conspiracy draft theories from some 50 years ago, how about joining the present.

Obama lied, Americans died and the MSM tried to help him cover it up. Anyone with military experience knew the attack on the Consulate was not some protest against a stupid movie! Obama is incompetent as POTUS, PERIOD!



You should get your facts straight. If anyone is to blame it is the republican congress who voted to cut the State Dept. budget which includes security. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/opinion/republicans-have-no-shame.html?_r=0 Also, if you you think this is incompetence how about 9/11 on your buddies Bush's watch? There were plenty of reports he ignored over "imminent attacks". His track record on protecting Consulates is the worst of any President. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...-sign-of-weakness-Bush-was-the-weakest-of-all http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/09/14/krauthammer-whitewashes-bushs-history-to-bash-o/189890

Remember your use of non-issues? Certainly did not take you long to regurgitate the latest one from Fox News and Rush Limbaugh. At least, pretend to be a somewhat discerning of the sources you use. Hell, I could do a better job of debating your side of the argument. :lol:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.