AmberCutie's Forum
An adult community for cam models and members to discuss all the things!

The Koch Brothers, & the best post you'll never read.

  • ** WARNING - ACF CONTAINS ADULT CONTENT **
    Only persons aged 18 or over may read or post to the forums, without regard to whether an adult actually owns the registration or parental/guardian permission. AmberCutie's Forum (ACF) is for use by adults only and contains adult content. By continuing to use this site you are confirming that you are at least 18 years of age.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Aug 14, 2011
3,382
3,181
233
I have spent the last week, off and on, working on a post. I was driven by the great disgust I feel for the Koch brothers. I was motivated by the comment here that those who felt the Koch brothers were the same as Al Qaeda are kooks. I also have become increasingly frustrated & irritated by the media, who so focus on the political manipulations of the Koch brothers that there has been very little attention paid to their horrendous and murderess environmental disregard. Also, if that were not enough, no ones seems to see through one of their most fundamental lies of acting in accordance to libertarian philosophies.

I had written what I think was a very good commentary on the actions of the Koch brothers & Koch industries. It showed very clearly their continued disregard and destruction of the environment. It also pointed out rather soundly that they do not act as libertarians, and regardless of propaganda do not hold to the philosophy of the libertarians. And I think I did a good job of pointing out some very fundamental similarities between the Koch brothers and terrorist groups. (With out suggesting they are the same as Al Qaeda, I made a strong argument that those who might suggest that, as not being so far off base, or kooky.)

After I had finished and was pleased with the 1500 word piece, I realized it was still a 1500 word piece, and I might as well tittle it, “the best post you'll never read”.

The Koch brothers are truly awful people yo! Their political manipulation is indeed corrosive to our already very sick democratic governmental system, and is key to moving forward most of their goals. But to me that is not their greatest evil – the Koch brothers and the actions of Koch industries have cost innocent human lives, and their continued disregard for the environment and the ppl they wilfully shit/pollute on will cost many more.

The thought that the Koch brothers have any chance to have things their way, is truly terrifying to me.
 
The Koch brothers are rich, powerful, and in their late 70s. That means they are like bald people outlawing shampoo, they will never suffer for their actions. They will die of old age long before their actions could impact their lives, beyond the ability of their money to shield them.
 
ACFFAN69 said:
What a tease! Did you back it up? 1500 words isn't that hard to read, espeically about an interesting subject like the Koch brothers. Post it! :thumbleft:

It's always interesting to read opinions, especially when they're on such a powerful and not-well spoken about topic.

I say post your original thoughts, it could turn into an interesting discussion where maybe everyone can learn something :)
 
Chellelovesu said:
ACFFAN69 said:
What a tease! Did you back it up? 1500 words isn't that hard to read, espeically about an interesting subject like the Koch brothers. Post it! :thumbleft:

It's always interesting to read opinions, especially when they're on such a powerful and not-well spoken about topic.

I say post your original thoughts, it could turn into an interesting discussion where maybe everyone can learn something :)

At worst only a handful of people will read it, and one or two of them will learn something. Surely this is worth the short effort it takes to hit "post reply", copy/paste, then hit "submit", since it is already written.

But I do get it, I'm a hypocrite. I've deleted dozens of posts after writing them.
 
Yeah, how dare those Koch brothers contribute $100 million to research cancer at MIT, not to mention providing $100 million to New York Presbyterian Hospital to build a new ambulatory care center, as well as $28 million to research causes.

Can't believe those assholes have sponsored the Special Olympics in Wichita, Kansas for the past 33 years either.

Not to mention Koch Industries and the Charles Koch Foundation’s partnership with the United Negro College Fund has resulted in a “$25 million grant that will provide nearly 3,000 merit-based awards to African American undergraduate, graduate, and post-doctorate students seeking scholarship assistance.”

What a bunch of pricks!

According to OpenSecrets.org, a campaign contribution tracking website run by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics, the Koch brothers rank pretty low in the grand scheme of political donors. The site’s “heavy hitters” list — a ranking of groups “that lobby and spend big, with large sums sent to candidates, parties and leadership PACs” — places Koch Industries at 59th, well below other organizations that are seen as less controversial than the brothers.

At the top of the list? ActBlue, a PAC that’s raised an impressive $121,099,109 since 1989 (99% of which has gone to Democratic candidates). Ranked 2nd on the list is the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Made up of 3,400 local unions the federation has raised $64,326,965 (80% of which has gone to Democrats). The nation’s largest teachers union, the National Education Association, rounds out the top 3 with $60,510,533 raised since 1989 (57% to Democrats).

Other names of interest that rank above Koch Industries include unions, trade associations, PACs, and corporations that contribute heavily or mainly to Democrats. By no means an exhaustive list, the highlights include the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (ranked 6th), the American Association for Justice (ranked 8th), and the Carpenters & Joiners Union (ranked 9th).

Analyzing the “heavy hitters” list, it becomes easy to question who the big bad wolf really is.

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/10/183154- ... -brothers/
 
I'd be interested in reading it.
But to give fair warning you'd have to have compelling reasoning backed up by sources for me to be swayed. Truth be told I've applied to them for a job and I have a different viewpoint on the 'evils' of the petroleum industry than many now that I'm almost done with my degree in the field. If it's just a general rant on subject...well, see Boce's post before this one. :lol:
 
  • Like
Reactions: camstory
I will post the original piece. I will have to pull up some sources for Jerry but have all the confidences in the world that they'er there - whether JBB will accept sources like green peace is debatable. (tho they have a near perfect record for being accurate.)

And I believe the Koch's have donated 500 mil to one cancer cause. But all their donations can be seen as good strategy, - when you have the second largest privatly owned biz you have to give away what seems like a lot of $. Koch industries makes 16.5 mil a day :shock:

Not going to source that or any now, cuz I have some sort of flu and was just up to shit and check things and could not help reply. I think I have to shit again but I will return when I am feeling better.
 
US Companies - it's all okay until you get involved in politics. Started reading the Rolling Stone piece - immediately wondered how they'd compare to other similar companies in both pollution and legal cases within the same sector(s). In other words, is their company awful when compared to contemporaries in those fields? Or about the norm... or actually better than the rest?

In which case, is the reporting solely down to the political persuasion of those reporting it? :D (meaning is it a smear campaign of opposition :p ).
 
Zoomer said:
US Companies - it's all okay until you get involved in politics. Started reading the Rolling Stone piece - immediately wondered how they'd compare to other similar companies in both pollution and legal cases within the same sector(s). In other words, is their company awful when compared to contemporaries in those fields? Or about the norm... or actually better than the rest?

In which case, is the reporting solely down to the political persuasion of those reporting it? :D (meaning is it a smear campaign of opposition :p ).
Just up, and still feel pretty bad, but am ready to find hard sources.

I think zoomers' post may have merit. I have not tried to do my own comparison, but only know that Koch industries was rated at some point 14th in the top U.S. polluters. (I'll source that as well.) There is no doubt that the recent wave of anti Koch media, (and yes I have read the RS article, thanks Zippy.) comes in the wake of the political backlash.

My personal dislike toward the Koch's has very little to do with political bent. Though it is few and far between, there are some examples of large business, energy and other, makeing change that in the short term can only hurt their bottom line, but are the right thing to do. With the exception of these few examples I hold all others more or less contemptible, and their actions or lack there of as awful.

We have had many examples of companies that have known with out a doubt that their practices where doing harm to the environment and/or the ppl effected by their actions, and we have found that contemptible, and held them responsible, if not always criminally accountable. Two examples might be the actions of the Johns Mansfield company who ignored, and even tried to hide evidence that asbestos used in their insolation and other building materials was a health risk. Or, the calibration, (yes conspiracy) of the three largest tobacco companies to deny the ill effects & addictive nature of their products. IMO these were awful actions, of awful ppl, who placed business concerns ahead of the health and well being of the public and employees their products did/do harm.

Regardless of any political stance, I hold all those engaged in business actions which clearly continue to do harm to the environment, without trying to make some change toward a more harmonious way of conducting that business, as contemptible and morally deficient.

The Koch brothers have not only made no attempt to correct harmful business practices, but they have attempted to hide or discredit evidence that is IMhO irrefutable.
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/campai ... ndustries/
In this way I see little difference between Koch industries and Johns Mansfield.

Anyone who behaves in such a manor I personally find to be at that level a awful person, - regardless of anything political.

Edit: Looks like there is a storm headed in, so the next few hours will be spent doing some things around here, but I will get back here tonight.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deleted member 8603
Zoomer said:
US Companies - it's all okay until you get involved in politics. Started reading the Rolling Stone piece - immediately wondered how they'd compare to other similar companies in both pollution and legal cases within the same sector(s). In other words, is their company awful when compared to contemporaries in those fields? Or about the norm... or actually better than the rest?

In which case, is the reporting solely down to the political persuasion of those reporting it? :D (meaning is it a smear campaign of opposition :p ).

So-called scientific truths have been manipulated in just about every way possible via political funding that it's beyond disgusting.

Any one entity that can manage to get that cockroach Harry Reid's senility panties in a major twist is OK as far as I'm concerned. :p
 
I started to gather and sort links to establish the most credible source references for the post below, but soon became perturbed with trying to fit these references into a piece that was not written as a journalistic documentation of facts, but rather something closer to an opinion piece. If that translates into a rant than so be it, though I would find that translation questionable. There is little doubt that the opinions expressed herein will spurn a measure of disagreement, but to accusations of questionable facts for which I have relied I leave that proof to the inquisitor, - good luck.

Preface: I would like to make some mostly overlooked observation in the post to follow. The continued well being of all life, and supporting environment becomes more dubious by the day, imo. Generally optimistic, while mounting a good deal of study to the subject herein, my optimism increasingly goes missing – fear, even a shuffling, relentless terror at times, I now find in its stead. That subject is the Koch brothers & Koch Industries, and the role they play in the wilful destruction of our natural world. I am haunted so often now by premonitions that much of life itself stands before the gallows steps...

This post is one of many I will make in the months that now separate us in the northern hemisphere from spring, and myself from the start of a multi state bicycle trip of 3200 miles, which I am calling, “Making Freedom Count”. The genesis for this trip was my realization that the human race now looks catastrophe squarely in the eye.
(“Population keeps on breeding
Nation bleeding, still more feeding economy
life is funny, skies are sunny
Bees make honey”
Lyrics from 'I'd Like To Change The World' by Ten Years After
)
But the bees are in decline, and so are so many of the creatures we share our world with. Complete ecosystems are failing at a rate unlike anything before experienced in human existences. To our knowledge there have been only 5 previous such declines of life on earth, and they are the markers we call great extinctions. We have set off, and are well on our way to the sixth, but we have the ability to make the changes needed to get things turned around, if we act soon. There will come a point that we will no longer have that ability, and I fear that point is rapidly approaching. The chorus of the song quoted above, “I'd love to change the world, But I don't know what to do, So I'll leave it up to you.” I do hope to change the world, and I don't know what to do, but so many seem to be leaving our fate up to someone else. So my trip will focus on one theme – independence. not just independence from fossil fuels, but also governmentally independence from corrosive forces like the Koch brothers, and the entrenched corporate interest who have bought up every exemption & loop hole, and bought off every restriction & overseer, and who, like the Koch brothers increasingly influence all branches of government, and care about nothing other than the bottom line. (I have purposely wondered a bit in announcing what has become my mission in life, and may well be my driving force for the remainder of my life. But that will be explained in more detail in another post soon to come.)

I will offer my POV, and hopefully convey it with some of the clarity the facts suggest to me. There is no way to look at the actions of the Koch brothers & Koch industries without first and foremost recognizing the manipulation of the political system in the United States. Though I understand this manipulation to be key to much of the strategies of the Koch brothers, I have chosen to give these political manipulations little attention, as I feel they are pretty clear, and more importantly have greatly distracted from the underlying policies of the Koch brothers. One might argue that any discussion of the Koch brothers that does not include their political manipulations, is at best incomplete, or even irrelevant. It is my concern that much of the discussion surrounding the Koch brothers has focused almost completely on the political aspects, and therefore have been incomplete in many other relevant concerns regarding the Koch brothers & Koch industries. In avoiding these hot button political issues, and in fact only touching on three points, I will agree this is not a complete assessment of the Koch brothers. It is my belief that two of these points, (1: false belief the Koch brothers follow libertarian philosophy, and, 2: that the philosophy of the Koch's is one of fanaticism) are of some relevance, if not directly quantifiable, then parenthetically in understand who the Koch brothers really are... The third, (a history of, and continued complete disregard of environmental well being) is of paramount relevance.

Finally, when I use, “Koch brothers” I am referring to Charles G. Koch & David H. Koch the two brothers who run Koch industries. Also, I hope to draw some clear comparisons between the Koch brothers and terrorist, as such comparisons have been labeled those of kook’s in recent post made here.

Libertarian philosophies: the idea that the Koch brothers are motivated by strong libertarian philosophies is inaccurate, and is one of the Koch's most fundamental lies. It is true that a bastardized version of libertarian philosophy is strongly promoted by the propaganda of the Koch brothers, but I suggest their motives have little to do with the beliefs of libertarians, and are just a convenient cloak used to hide their real motivations. One of the most fundamental beliefs/philosophies of libertarians, and it might seem the Koch brothers, is the need for little or no government control, and that maximum freedom without regulation take priority over almost everything else. The reason for these beliefs in the libertarian philosophy when distilled down, is because a society populated by correct minded individuals who mind their own business needs little government control. A good example of a law that is fundamentally intrusive and unnecessary in the philosophy of libertarians might be the law in Washington state that requires a garbage receptacle to be within arms reach of the driver of any vehicle stopped on state highways. This law that was passed in an effort to reduce the amount of litter being thrown from moving vehicles, flies in the face of the libertarian philosophy. It is the belief of libertarians that such laws are not needed, but what is needed rather be the understanding of all individuals that you do not throw litter from your car. It is a libertarians strong belief that one should have the right to run his/her life as he/she see fit, and should not be told/governed on how to do that. Though this belief alone is inadequate to assure harmony without the understanding that such freedoms only work when they do not foster actions that cause harm to others, or infringe on the liberties of others. That is, that one should be allowed to conduct his/her affairs in what ever way he/she sees fit, but only if that does not negatively impact others. If you understand that throwing trash out of your car causes harm to the environment, and therefore other people who live in that environment, you don't do it because to do so is not part of your belief system. If you hold this belief in its entirety to be a fundamental part of the true Libertarian philosophy, which as I understand it, it clearly is, then it is hard to find any of the actions of the Koch brothers to be truly grounded in the Libertarian philosophy. In fact it is my opinion that the beliefs and actions of the Koch brothers has no more to do with libertarian beliefs/philosophies, than the actions of extremist Muslims have to do with the beliefs/philosophies of Islam.

Fanaticism: I want to make a strong comparison between the actions of the fanatics who engage in what we label terrorism, and the actions of Koch industries. I don't wish to label all fanatics as negative influences in society, and certainly not as heartless killers of innocent life. It is not necessarily the actions themselves of a fanatic that make them dangerous, but rather their failure to see, or have any concern for anything beyond that which they are fanatical about. Therefore if the fanatic deems a course of action is necessary to further his goal, he takes that action regardless of any other concern, ethical, moral, or even criminal, if there is a reasonable belief he will escape the penalty of those criminal actions, or that such penalty is insufficient to detour the overall furtherance of his goal.

In all I have read, I truly did not find a single example of an action of the Koch brothers that could not be contributed to one single fanatical goal. That goal, being the fanatical self-interest to increase the wealth of Koch industries. One might cite philanthropic gifts of millions of dollars to universities, or cancer research centres, or to The United Negro College Fund, or any of the other charitable donations given by the Koch brothers as examples of concerns beyond a fanatical goal to increase the wealth of Koch Industries. But the fact is, that when your net worth is upward of 40 billion dollars, it makes financial sense to donate a certain amount of that money. So, it might be just as likely that the causes to which you give that money are calculated to be those who, for one reason or another, are going to benefit you in some way. In the case of the money given to universities, it might be given with conditions that staffing decisions be made within certain guidelines, or that a certain limited curriculum be offered, and others be excluded. In the case of the donations made/partnership entered into, to The United Negro College Fund, it might be seen as a beneficial PR campaign to distances yourself from the blatant racism of your father, and/or your own racist past.

The fact that you give money, you must give to be financially prudent, are given to good honourable causes does not prove your own honourable intentions, and might just as easily be attributed to a calculation that those causes best served your fanatical self interest. I think the absence of any donation of a formidable amount going to any cause that might in any way pose an obstacle to the goal of increasing the wealth of Koch industries says as much about the intentions of the Koch brothers as anything.

With the added prologue & rebuttals this post has well exceeded the 1500 words promised, so I will offer this video as one example of the practices of the Koch brothers and Koch industries, and then try to conclude in retaliative brevity.



The documented cases in which the Koch brothers showed absolutely no regard for environmental well-being is monstrous. Their repeated environmental indifference, and continuous violations of environmental laws, would suggest that these are not mistakes of mismanagement, but rather calculated strategies. Strategies to wilfully pollute, because it is more profitable to pay the fines at bargained prices when caught, than it is to abide by the laws.

But it is not just the environment that the Koch's seem to have no regard for, in fact one is hard-pressed to find a single concern beyond that of the increased wealth of Koch industries. It is not just their actions - “Koch industries has a philosophy that profits are above everything else.” younger brother Bill Koch. It is this total disregard for all else that to me suggest the fanatical mindset, and leads me to believe they are pretty awful people.
 
Are the Koch brothers the same as Al Qaeda? No, but they share some of the same dangerous qualities. Both spread carefully crafted propaganda to persuade specific groups of their alliance to, and alignment with their belief system or philosophy, in order to gain their popular public support, and/or enlist their efforts in forwarding their own true agenda. Both work in covert ways to destroy, dismantle, or damage the government of the United States. Both are driven by fanatical goals which result in actions that cause great harm in their wake. And, if you believe as I do that the coming extreme environmental change will be the cause of much conflict, and will result in the death of many innocent lives, then the Koch brothers funding of climate denial might be seen as an act of terror, or something not so different. I believe history will show the actions of the Koch brothers and others who promote climate denial while aware of the overwhelming contradictory evidence, to be grossly unethical, and morally bankrupt.

And, Jerry, I wish you luck, but truly hope you find gainful employment with someone who has concern for those other than themselves.
 
ramblin said:


Watch the whole 20 minutes, 'cause it's good, but otherwise: @9:40 S-Corps are effectively required by law to maximize value to shareholders at all costs, human, societal and environmental benefits bedamned. Yes, this is a problem.

see: http://www.virginialawreview.org/sites/ ... r_Book.pdf

thank you very much Ramblim. I really liked this TED. But what he said sas that, ghis was the law of the land, and you could get sued. That is a problem even at that. And this guy makes my case pretty well. But, it does not make me believe the Kochs do what they do because they are working for the shareholders.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deleted member 8603
Oh, especially b,c there are no shareholders. Sry a bit drunk atm.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deleted member 8603
I think they're dicks who only contribute money to things that get them something like tax breaks or political influence. But they're only doing what the system allows. They're far from the only people using money to wield unfair political influence. The entire United States political system is dominated by money. Our congressional representatives use a large majority of their time in office pandering for more money to stay in office. After money, their second highest objective is appeasing their own political party. Rather than actually serving the majority of citizens.

Would be nice if the Citizens United law was changed to limit campaign contributions and take power away from the Koch Brothers or lobbying groups. Be nice if electoral votes were eliminated so all the votes counted and the candidate who gets the majority of votes actually won. Be nice if there were limits on every office of how many terms a representative can serve so they are not in office for life. But I doubt any of those are going to happen any time soon unfortunately.
 
goldenaye666 said:
I think they're dicks who only contribute money to things that get them something like tax breaks or political influence. But they're only doing what the system allows. They're far from the only people using money to wield unfair political influence. The entire United States political system is dominated by money. Our congressional representatives use a large majority of their time in office pandering for more money to stay in office. After money, their second highest objective is appeasing their own political party. Rather than actually serving the majority of citizens.

Would be nice if the Citizens United law was changed to limit campaign contributions and take power away from the Koch Brothers or lobbying groups. Be nice if electoral votes were eliminated so all the votes counted and the candidate who gets the majority of votes actually won. Be nice if there were limits on every office of how many terms a representative can serve so they are not in office for life. But I doubt any of those are going to happen any time soon unfortunately.
Exactly, but I think one of our biggest problems is this belief that these are problems we can't solve anytime soon. (Which is the exact same sentiment echoed by one of my good friends here via email.) It seems this sense of hopelessness only exasperates the problem.

Please see my more recent post, "if you care about the republic".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nordling
Thank you for the in-depth and well thought out post Camstory! I really appreciate posts like these.
Here is my :twocents-02cents: .

camstory said:
(“Population keeps on breeding
Nation bleeding, still more feeding economy
life is funny, skies are sunny
Bees make honey”
Lyrics from 'I'd Like To Change The World' by Ten Years After
)
But the bees are in decline, and so are so many of the creatures we share our world with. Complete ecosystems are failing at a rate unlike anything before experienced in human existences. To our knowledge there have been only 5 previous such declines of life on earth, and they are the markers we call great extinctions. We have set off, and are well on our way to the sixth, but we have the ability to make the changes needed to get things turned around, if we act soon. There will come a point that we will no longer have that ability, and I fear that point is rapidly approaching. The chorus of the song quoted above, “I'd love to change the world, But I don't know what to do, So I'll leave it up to you.” I do hope to change the world, and I don't know what to do, but so many seem to be leaving our fate up to someone else. So my trip will focus on one theme – independence. not just independence from fossil fuels, but also governmentally independence from corrosive forces like the Koch brothers, and the entrenched corporate interest who have bought up every exemption & loop hole, and bought off every restriction & overseer, and who, like the Koch brothers increasingly influence all branches of government, and care about nothing other than the bottom line. (I have purposely wondered a bit in announcing what has become my mission in life, and may well be my driving force for the remainder of my life. But that will be explained in more detail in another post soon to come.)

I completely agree with you that the entrenchment of big business in the US government is probably the biggest threat that the world is facing. What was once a Republic now feels like a Plutocracy. I'd also like to counter that I believe it is not just corporate lobbyists, but all lobbyists, that are a corrosive force in government (on all sides of the political spectrum).

I applaud, appreciate, and am even a little envious of your commitment to improve the World. I do feel the need to mention that every generation before has had the underlying feeling that theirs will be the last, although your fear is likely positive in a manner to assist you in completing your goals.

camstory said:
I will offer my POV, and hopefully convey it with some of the clarity the facts suggest to me. There is no way to look at the actions of the Koch brothers & Koch industries without first and foremost recognizing the manipulation of the political system in the United States. Though I understand this manipulation to be key to much of the strategies of the Koch brothers, I have chosen to give these political manipulations little attention, as I feel they are pretty clear, and more importantly have greatly distracted from the underlying policies of the Koch brothers. One might argue that any discussion of the Koch brothers that does not include their political manipulations, is at best incomplete, or even irrelevant. It is my concern that much of the discussion surrounding the Koch brothers has focused almost completely on the political aspects, and therefore have been incomplete in many other relevant concerns regarding the Koch brothers & Koch industries. In avoiding these hot button political issues, and in fact only touching on three points, I will agree this is not a complete assessment of the Koch brothers. It is my belief that two of these points, (1: false belief the Koch brothers follow libertarian philosophy, and, 2: that the philosophy of the Koch's is one of fanaticism) are of some relevance, if not directly quantifiable, then parenthetically in understand who the Koch brothers really are... The third, (a history of, and continued complete disregard of environmental well being) is of paramount relevance.

Finally, when I use, “Koch brothers” I am referring to Charles G. Koch & David H. Koch the two brothers who run Koch industries. Also, I hope to draw some clear comparisons between the Koch brothers and terrorist, as such comparisons have been labeled those of kook’s in recent post made here.

Libertarian philosophies: the idea that the Koch brothers are motivated by strong libertarian philosophies is inaccurate, and is one of the Koch's most fundamental lies. It is true that a bastardized version of libertarian philosophy is strongly promoted by the propaganda of the Koch brothers, but I suggest their motives have little to do with the beliefs of libertarians, and are just a convenient cloak used to hide their real motivations. One of the most fundamental beliefs/philosophies of libertarians, and it might seem the Koch brothers, is the need for little or no government control, and that maximum freedom without regulation take priority over almost everything else. The reason for these beliefs in the libertarian philosophy when distilled down, is because a society populated by correct minded individuals who mind their own business needs little government control. A good example of a law that is fundamentally intrusive and unnecessary in the philosophy of libertarians might be the law in Washington state that requires a garbage receptacle to be within arms reach of the driver of any vehicle stopped on state highways. This law that was passed in an effort to reduce the amount of litter being thrown from moving vehicles, flies in the face of the libertarian philosophy. It is the belief of libertarians that such laws are not needed, but what is needed rather be the understanding of all individuals that you do not throw litter from your car. It is a libertarians strong belief that one should have the right to run his/her life as he/she see fit, and should not be told/governed on how to do that. Though this belief alone is inadequate to assure harmony without the understanding that such freedoms only work when they do not foster actions that cause harm to others, or infringe on the liberties of others. That is, that one should be allowed to conduct his/her affairs in what ever way he/she sees fit, but only if that does not negatively impact others. If you understand that throwing trash out of your car causes harm to the environment, and therefore other people who live in that environment, you don't do it because to do so is not part of your belief system. If you hold this belief in its entirety to be a fundamental part of the true Libertarian philosophy, which as I understand it, it clearly is, then it is hard to find any of the actions of the Koch brothers to be truly grounded in the Libertarian philosophy. In fact it is my opinion that the beliefs and actions of the Koch brothers has no more to do with libertarian beliefs/philosophies, than the actions of extremist Muslims have to do with the beliefs/philosophies of Islam.

I view Libertarians similar to how I view Socialists. Libertarians are generally opposed to government influence in economic or social issues, but how opposed varies widely by the libertarian. If they believe that there should be no government influence at all then they would be considered anarchists. One could also easily be a social libertarian, but not economic (I fall into this category). There are many different philosophies/theories in libertarianism to state if someone is one or not emphatically.

I suppose I'd need examples of things the Koch brothers have done that is anti-libertarian.

camstory said:
Fanaticism: I want to make a strong comparison between the actions of the fanatics who engage in what we label terrorism, and the actions of Koch industries. I don't wish to label all fanatics as negative influences in society, and certainly not as heartless killers of innocent life. It is not necessarily the actions themselves of a fanatic that make them dangerous, but rather their failure to see, or have any concern for anything beyond that which they are fanatical about. Therefore if the fanatic deems a course of action is necessary to further his goal, he takes that action regardless of any other concern, ethical, moral, or even criminal, if there is a reasonable belief he will escape the penalty of those criminal actions, or that such penalty is insufficient to detour the overall furtherance of his goal.

In all I have read, I truly did not find a single example of an action of the Koch brothers that could not be contributed to one single fanatical goal. That goal, being the fanatical self-interest to increase the wealth of Koch industries. One might cite philanthropic gifts of millions of dollars to universities, or cancer research centres, or to The United Negro College Fund, or any of the other charitable donations given by the Koch brothers as examples of concerns beyond a fanatical goal to increase the wealth of Koch Industries. But the fact is, that when your net worth is upward of 40 billion dollars, it makes financial sense to donate a certain amount of that money. So, it might be just as likely that the causes to which you give that money are calculated to be those who, for one reason or another, are going to benefit you in some way. In the case of the money given to universities, it might be given with conditions that staffing decisions be made within certain guidelines, or that a certain limited curriculum be offered, and others be excluded. In the case of the donations made/partnership entered into, to The United Negro College Fund, it might be seen as a beneficial PR campaign to distances yourself from the blatant racism of your father, and/or your own racist past.

The fact that you give money, you must give to be financially prudent, are given to good honourable causes does not prove your own honourable intentions, and might just as easily be attributed to a calculation that those causes best served your fanatical self interest. I think the absence of any donation of a formidable amount going to any cause that might in any way pose an obstacle to the goal of increasing the wealth of Koch industries says as much about the intentions of the Koch brothers as anything.

Agreed on this statement, but I sometimes wonder if any donation is entirely altruistic. The reason I donate money is because it makes me feel better about myself. I think the action should be considered more then the ulterior motive.

In a culture that glorifies success with money in the way that we do, I can understand where they are coming from with their emphasis on making money as their most important goal, Without condoning or condemning their actions. I think it is a bigger issue then just the Koch brothers.

camstory said:
With the added prologue & rebuttals this post has well exceeded the 1500 words promised, so I will offer this video as one example of the practices of the Koch brothers and Koch industries, and then try to conclude in retaliative brevity.



The documented cases in which the Koch brothers showed absolutely no regard for environmental well-being is monstrous. Their repeated environmental indifference, and continuous violations of environmental laws, would suggest that these are not mistakes of mismanagement, but rather calculated strategies. Strategies to wilfully pollute, because it is more profitable to pay the fines at bargained prices when caught, than it is to abide by the laws.

But it is not just the environment that the Koch's seem to have no regard for, in fact one is hard-pressed to find a single concern beyond that of the increased wealth of Koch industries. It is not just their actions - “Koch industries has a philosophy that profits are above everything else.” younger brother Bill Koch. It is this total disregard for all else that to me suggest the fanatical mindset, and leads me to believe they are pretty awful people.


If it is the case that they are willfully polluting because it is more profitable to pay the fines, then I think the focus should be on increasing the fines/laws for doing this. It should be less about the abusers then about the fine itself. If it wasn't the Koch brothers then it would be someone else.

Thanks for the video, I've got it queued up to watch tonight!
 
camstory said:
Are the Koch brothers the same as Al Qaeda? No, but they share some of the same dangerous qualities. Both spread carefully crafted propaganda to persuade specific groups of their alliance to, and alignment with their belief system or philosophy, in order to gain their popular public support, and/or enlist their efforts in forwarding their own true agenda. Both work in covert ways to destroy, dismantle, or damage the government of the United States. Both are driven by fanatical goals which result in actions that cause great harm in their wake. And, if you believe as I do that the coming extreme environmental change will be the cause of much conflict, and will result in the death of many innocent lives, then the Koch brothers funding of climate denial might be seen as an act of terror, or something not so different. I believe history will show the actions of the Koch brothers and others who promote climate denial while aware of the overwhelming contradictory evidence, to be grossly unethical, and morally bankrupt.

And, Jerry, I wish you luck, but truly hope you find gainful employment with someone who has concern for those other than themselves.

I feel like I'd need evidence to show that they are aware and believe the overwhelming contradictory evidence before lambasting them as murders for promoting climate denial.
 
Well, thank you ACFFAN69. I believe you are right to suggest my focus is off target some. It seems I may have been a bit fanatical in my Kochuttack
ACFFAN69 said:
I'd also like to counter that I believe it is not just corporate lobbyists, but all lobbyists, that are a corrosive force in government (on all sides of the political spectrum).
Agreed, the idea that special interest are allowed to petition government to a greater extent than any other citizen seems to me to be the definition of favoritism, whether it is the Sierra Club or Safeway.
I view Libertarians similar to how I view Socialists. Libertarians are generally opposed to government influence in economic or social issues, but how opposed varies widely by the libertarian. If they believe that there should be no government influence at all then they would be considered anarchists. One could also easily be a social libertarian, but not economic (I fall into this category). There are many different philosophies/theories in libertarianism to state if someone is one or not emphatically.

I suppose I'd need examples of things the Koch brothers have done that is anti-libertarian.
My understanding of libertarianism is one collected as a child when I found the curiosity of sitting out of sight, and trying to understand the adults, more desirable than playing hide and go seek, or later, spin the bottle, when I found myself one of the children at some quaker retreat. The core of their understanding, as I remember it, was that the responsibility of freedom from rule included a very strict consideration to never take actions that could result in an ethical or morial negative impact upon others.

My understanding is simple and defined in the singularity of my reference. From that perhaps limited understanding it is clear that there have been scores of actions of the Koch brothers that are decidedly, (indictments, convictions, etc.) those that impacted negatively on many ppl.

But, on this point what compelled me was my thought that the Koch's very much reminded me of many punks I spent too many years around, who beat their chest and spewed their membership in the, down, got your back, keeping it real, on my white skin, bros before hoes, bad ass hoodlum, homeboy club, who distorted the club rules, and only abided by them when it was convenient to do so. (for me this point was not about libertarianism or lack of, but rather what their sudo libertarianism said to me about their character.)

In a culture that glorifies success with money in the way that we do, I can understand where they are coming from with their emphasis on making money as their most important goal... I think it is a bigger issue...
Yes you are right, but I think the bigger issue is in that first line. It often does seem that the way we now define success is only about wealth. Wealth has always been a big part of that definition, but have we really lost so much decency and humanity that there is no other standard to which a man/woman must be concerned to be considered a success?

If it is the case that they are willfully polluting because it is more profitable to pay the fines, then I think the focus should be on increasing the fines/laws for doing this. It should be less about the abusers then about the fine itself. If it wasn't the Koch brothers then it would be someone else.
You are absolutely correct on this IMhO, and the subject of this point was/is clearly a system inadequate in it's penalties, even if I failed to clearly express that.

"then it would be someone else" is correct in reality, but absolutely an incorrect way of rationalizing, and suggest some pardon or lessening of culpability.

I have known way too many thieves, and most of them would in one way or the other at times use this excuse. And, I for some time justified my purchase of their stolen goods with this same excuse - if not me someone else would buy the stuff. 100% true - 100% no excuse!

I feel like I'd need evidence to show that they are aware and believe the overwhelming contradictory evidence before lambasting them as murders for promoting climate denial.
Of course. And, this is the only ethical stance to support, and is what I would endorse as a matter of principle. Publicly and in principle there is no other stance. ( We can not expect to champion official integrity, and not practice it ourselves.)

But as a matter of personal opinion, in honesty, I tend to believe C. Koch has no doubts about the sickened state of the environment. I see only one other possibility, that he does in deed believe climate denial in correct, in which case he may not be the awful person I diagram, but rather the crazy person who other facts suggest to me. None of the facts suggest C.Koch is anything but a highly intelligent man, excelling in studies at MIT for one. Again opinion, but it is my opinion that any highly intelligent person who does not believe in global warming at this point must be mad as a fucking hatter. And, if not crazy, and not stupid, than it seems a stretch at best to think he believes the climate denial lies.

“The human race is challenged more than ever before to demonstrate our mastery - not over nature but of ourselves” Rachel Carson
 
I am surprised that your outrage does not extend to George Soros, Hungarian Jew immigrant who via his billions funds Move On and other anti capitalist, secular progressive organizations and candidates. Where is your outrage toward Hollywood which feeds us anti family/immediate gratification crap such that our divorce rate is 50% and unwed birth's at 72% among blacks? Where is your outrage against Muslims who treat women like garbage and mutilate their genitals? Where is your outrage against an administration that has engaged in: Fast and Furious; Bengazi coverup, Obamacare lies, IRS targeting, NSA spying, Secret Service misconduct and cover up, a disasterous foreign policy in Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and the Ukraine? Where is your outrage at the 17+ trillion national debt that we have? How about the jobless recovery or the lowest workplace participation in decades or the underemployed?

Sure we need environmental regulation but that is the least of our problems. I find your outrage genuine but misplaced. :violin:

BTW if some of you models are for socialism and wealth redistribution then please lobby for an MFC policy that pays all models the same regardless of tokens earned or quality of work. No? I didn't think so:))

Rude Boy
 
RudeBoy said:
I am surprised that your outrage does not extend to George Soros, Hungarian Jew immigrant who via his billions funds Move On and other anti capitalist, secular progressive organizations and candidates. Where is your outrage toward Hollywood which feeds us anti family/immediate gratification crap such that our divorce rate is 50% and unwed birth's at 72% among blacks? Where is your outrage against Muslims who treat women like garbage and mutilate their genitals? Where is your outrage against an administration that has engaged in: Fast and Furious; Bengazi coverup, Obamacare lies, IRS targeting, NSA spying, Secret Service misconduct and cover up, a disasterous foreign policy in Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and the Ukraine? Where is your outrage at the 17+ trillion national debt that we have? How about the jobless recovery or the lowest workplace participation in decades or the underemployed?

Sure we need environmental regulation but that is the least of our problems. I find your outrage genuine but misplaced. :violin:

BTW if some of you models are for socialism and wealth redistribution then please lobby for an MFC policy that pays all models the same regardless of tokens earned or quality of work. No? I didn't think so:))

Rude Boy

Let's try to make this non-partisan and use some common sense. Not to put words in Camstory's mouth or white knight him, but I think it's a little early to accuse him of things that he hasn't even mentioned. In fact based on some of the things he's posted I would bet that he is not a supporter of President Obama, negating half of the things you mentioned. Not everyone follows a team believe it or not. In fact I agree with 90% of what you said are problems and 90% of what Camstory has said are problems.

Really the only things I disagree with you is thinking that the divorce rate and unwed babies "among the blacks" is an issue. if I were to run for office I'd run on a platform for more divorce and more unwed babies in fact. The less we take Marriage serious, the better this world will be, I believe. Also I'm not really as outraged with the Muslim issues you mentioned because I believe we in the West have serious feminist issues that need to be addressed ourselves, and are currently mutilating male genitalia mainly because women feel it looks better.

Finally the IRS targeting. This is nothing abnormal and has been the status quo since Roosevelt, and has occurred in EVERY administration since, from both parties. Is it corrupt? Yes, but it's a non-partisan issue. I'm actually more surprised that the NSA hasn't been caught spying on the opposition party. It's really just a matter of time if it hasn't occurred already (according to the Snowden leaks the NSA was spying on Obama when he was a senator).

Let's try to stay on topic and not start colouring ourselves red and blue, then getting rude and argumentative please?
 
RudeBoy said:
Where is your outrage against Muslims who treat women like garbage and mutilate their genitals?
First off, I have no time right now, but will address RB post in fuller detail shortly. ACFFAN had everything about right. I actually was a supporter of the green party, and in Ca. could vote so. Obama IMO was a huge sell out, or more likely he had duped us lefty pinko fages, and never planed to make the good fight for many of the things he ran on. My outrage for much of what you mentioned is absent, prolly only b/c I am not well enough informed on those matters. You see I am not so sharp and do not possess the quick absorption of multiple matters that a 25 year old might be, and I know that. For that reason I have become very focused on the problem I am most passionate about - the environment. All things are interconnected, and I understand how bad things are in the general management of the world. I understand much of what is sick now seems more important than the natural world, but its sickness is one of relatively gradual change, (though extremely rapid in environmental terms), and is buffered in the short term by adsorption of the vast expanse of systems on which it inputs. The feedback is far from immediate, but it is perhaps like trying to fry bacon quickly it a large cast iron pan. The environment is something like that cast iron pan - it will take that bacon 2 - 3 minutes before it starts to cook well. And when you turn the heat off the ramping down is as well a gradual process.

Bottom line, unless you can be certain that climate change is being vastly over exaggerated, it is prudent, and IMO a huge priority, to deal with it as if it really might get bad. Because if we do not, and it does - it is, not a game changer, but the one problem that could stop the game as we understand it. World/US economy, even the collapse of nation states, and the chaos of that can be survived as we are for the most part. But the collapse of the natural world once the pan starts feeding back could be the sort of catastrophic change that we do not have the ability to quickly adapt to without huge geographical migrations, starvation, and global conflict as a result. You may be alive in 50 years, and I hope you still do not see reason to make the environment a priority, but I'm sure that is very wishful thinking.

Way late for RW obligations, but finally, I have focused my outrage b/c I would rather know a lot about one thing, than know none proficiently. Being a jack of all, (or many), is fine for those few who have that capacity, but those who do not should be very aware of that so they do not propagate misleading info, at the expense of others, and continued ignorance.

The act of FGM is not a problem of the islamic ppl, and never has be practiced in the muslim faith, with the exception of a few tiny radical sub-sects. It is a problem found to a great extent in the central african countries, not the arab world. And in some places the christian woman who experience FGM out number the muslim woman by a factor of 20X. The fact is FGM predates any current religion, and has been practiced by many primitive cultures in many parts of the world. It is a sad part of several predominantly islamic countries/regions, but it is less islamic than many other things.

I think we should be certain of our outrage before we become righteously outraged.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ACFFAN69
The problem is that focusing on one thing, even if you are very passionate about it, can be destructive. The world, much like the human body, it a vast system that is interdependent. Radical "Green Party" change would cause an economic disaster at least.

You do not mention population control. We had about 3.5 billion people in the world 60 yrs ago. We now have 7 billion. Overpopulation causes more greenhouse gases, waste and pollution. The USA is at zero population growth. The EU, Eastern Europe and Russia are imploding @ about 1.4 kids per couple. OTOH Africa produces about 5-6 kids per couple, many of whom die. So. American, 4-5, The Islamic world 5-7.

What should this be a concern for you, a seeming very liberal 25 yr old? In every majority Muslim country other religions and atheists are persecuted, discriminated against and even killed on a regular basis. Examples would be Iraq and the Sudan. It is written in the Koran that this is justified. I know...but but but but what about the Crusades and the Inquisition? This was a human exploitation of Christianity and was never called for in the Bible. The men involved perverted the religion to get more power. There are no current majority Christian nations that discriminate against Muslims and their intolerance.

These same muslims are coming to a neighborhood near you. In Dearborn Michigan, they have their own vast hood. We have already seen domestic terrorists motivated by hate speech in mosques. England and France are about 12% Muslim and most are NOT assimilating but trying actively to change those societies to Sharia law. You my friend, as a green party, ultra liberal sexually and non traditional would be one of the first people to be arrested after they got all of the homosexuals and cam girls:)

WTF is my point? We need population control to help the environment.

RE: Family- The basic family unit produces the best outcomes in terms of education, incarceration, income and general productivity and happiness than any other system. It is the breakdown of this family unit that has fucked up society and devastated the black community. Why? Because having a mom and dad to teach you right from wrong works better than not having that. Single motherhood is also the biggest predictor of poverty...so I would suggest to you that your wish that we were just one big sex commune would not work.

Back to the Environment for a minute... China is now the biggest producer of pollution in the world. That is one of the reasons why they are able to make goods so cheaply. Virtually no environmental controls. You DO remember that when the Olympics were in China they had to ban all cars for 3 weeks to clear the air. Most of their food exports are contaminated with heavy metals. They are drowning in waste. Can I assume that you are boycotting all Chinese made products? Can I assume that you do not drive a car but instead bike when you can? What about the CO2 you are breathing out while biking? BTW I think global warming is 90% bullshit. The Earth has gone through thousands on cyclical climate changes and there isn't a damn thing man can do to change this. We can save this world by stamping out totalitarian philosophies, controlling population, developing non carbon forms of energy and encouraging behavior that helps others rather than just ourselves.

Rude Boy ( I said I was rude right?) :cool:
 
  • Like
Reactions: eyeteach
Well dude, I was with you on the pop thing. I had assumed, (You know that one is tricky), that my understanding for such facts were given. Population is the real heat were under. And, water is the battered mother.

But then I got a little, um, befuddled, almost like you were talking to someone else. From there I did a skip, and I was back in step; minny fantasy rant with great big shiny men on horses, and the rack!!!

And then, again, this time for sure you were talking with someone else. So, voices?

Or, em, yea Ok, dude, I think you may be hackin someone and you for reasons unknown think it is me. I've had that world is a orgy just for me fantasy same as you,,, and the other fella too, right? (post his email address – sounds like a blast!)

And then on the serious side: Full fuckin stop. Rude Boy, is exceptional, if that was yours, your on the board – way to go sport!

You are on dangerous footing, step back from your sour Juvenal contempt. Now put down the bullshit, ,, aw, fuck your all covered in it.

Now you can rince, scrape, shake it off, and think it away. Think, study good on that one first – it sometimes means different things to some ppl.

OK, here we are. I can see the finish right the other side of china, but it's a colossal shit road going your way.

Rude Boy, hey how'd you feel about seeing a blind fella, (do you see him as black too, lol) Shooting targets, or a guy missing both feet doing tap? I think I might feel a little embarrassed for him. Not that it's his fault exactly, but just watching any body, anything struggle with that which they are not well equipped, is hard to,,, Well, anyway. Hey you know on the naturiey shows, like I like? - do you ever find yourself rutting for the poor confused, wounded animal to get away, so you don't have to see the life be squeezed out of them? No, me neither

If you make it out alive, come back when you grow some feet, we'll put an act together champ.
 
camstory said:
it is my opinion that any highly intelligent person who does not believe in global warming at this point must be mad as a fucking hatter. And, if not crazy, and not stupid, than it seems a stretch at best to think he believes the climate denial lies.

Global warming?

At least try to keep up on current terminology. :lol:

It's been 18 years since there was any credible warming which is why the hucksters decided to rename it 'climate change' so they can make any type of weather fit their bogus agenda. None of their dire predictions have come true, yet they continue to make them. The only reason they blame weather changes on mankind is because they can't prove it's due to anything else, they're just guessing it's man made.

Climate change PROVED to be 'nothing but a lie', claims top meteorologist

THE debate about climate change is finished - because it has been categorically proved NOT to exist, one of the world's leading meteorologists has claimed.

John Coleman, who co-founded the Weather Channel, shocked academics by insisting the theory of man-made climate change was no longer scientifically credible.

Instead, what 'little evidence' there is for rising global temperatures points to a 'natural phenomenon' within a developing eco-system.

In an open letter attacking the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, he wrote: "The ocean is not rising significantly.

"The polar ice is increasing, not melting away. Polar Bears are increasing in number.

"Heat waves have actually diminished, not increased. There is not an uptick in the number or strength of storms (in fact storms are diminishing).

"I have studied this topic seriously for years. It has become a political and environment agenda item, but the science is not valid."

http://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/52 ... el-founder
 
:think: Curious..... this, judging by the replies, seems to have been a bit too far outside the boundary of camgirl interest....
 
  • Like
Reactions: camstory
SoTxBob said:
:think: Curious..... this, judging by the replies, seems to have been a bit too far outside the boundary of camgirl interest....
I guess a simple, "I told you so" would have left others in the dark. :lol:
 
rudeboy said:
The problem is that focusing on one thing, even if you are very passionate about it, can be destructive. The world, much like the human body, it a vast system that is interdependent. Radical "Green Party" change would cause an economic disaster at least.

You do not mention population control. We had about 3.5 billion people in the world 60 yrs ago. We now have 7 billion. Overpopulation causes more greenhouse gases, waste and pollution. The USA is at zero population growth. The EU, Eastern Europe and Russia are imploding @ about 1.4 kids per couple. OTOH Africa produces about 5-6 kids per couple, many of whom die. So. American, 4-5, The Islamic world 5-7. 

What should this be a concern for you, a seeming very liberal 25 yr old? In every majority Muslim country other religions and atheists are persecuted, discriminated against and even killed on a regular basis. Examples would be Iraq and the Sudan. It is written in the Koran that this is justified. I know...but but but but what about the Crusades and the Inquisition? This was a human exploitation of Christianity and was never called for in the Bible. The men involved perverted the religion to get more power. There are no current majority Christian nations that discriminate against Muslims and their intolerance. 

These same muslims are coming to a neighborhood near you. In Dearborn Michigan, they have their own vast hood. We have already seen domestic terrorists motivated by hate speech in mosques. England and France are about 12% Muslim and most are NOT assimilating but trying actively to change those societies to Sharia law. You my friend, as a green party, ultra liberal sexually and non traditional would be one of the first people to be arrested after they got all of the homosexuals and cam girls:) 

Oh, damn, try as I might, I just can't make a serious reply to this ^^^^^^^^^ I do however want to point out a thing or two to you. (BTW this is one of those things someone does for someone other than themselves, - your post was most entertaining, I owe ya.)

OK, if you really have any beliefs that are your own, and you want to express them, do so. If you are sure of some facts that you think are relevant, express those. If you have some prejudices, feel free to express those. (I don't much like Filipinos.) But don't mix it all up – well unless you are into abuse. B/C you will get abused, and rightfully so when you sound like you are trying to make an analytical argument, but every other line are pure crap. It may be the crap you believe, it may turn out to be accurate crap, but it does not belong in an analytical debate. (or only in tiny summary bits if that.)

What should this be a concern for you, a seeming very liberal 25 yr old? In every majority Muslim country other religions and atheists are persecuted, discriminated against and even killed on a regular basis. Examples would be Iraq and the Sudan. It is written in the Koran that this is justified. I know...but but but but what about the Crusades and the Inquisition? This was a human exploitation of Christianity and was never called for in the Bible. The men involved perverted the religion to get more power. There are no current majority Christian nations that discriminate against Muslims and their intolerance. 

This,^^^^^^^^^^^ for instance, is batshit crazy! There is so much that could be said, but I don't think any of it would matter. Figure out what you think. Then try to figure out why you think what you do. Then try to get that down, with out all the word salad dredged up from those fiery Limbaugh or Fox News commentaries. There is hardly a paragraph in all you have written that does not contain at least one statement that is argumentatively , absolutely, and without question wrong, or at best unverifiable.

These same muslims are coming to a neighborhood near you. In Dearborn Michigan, they have their own vast hood. We have already seen domestic terrorists motivated by hate speech in mosques. England and France are about 12% Muslim and most are NOT assimilating but trying actively to change those societies to Sharia law. You my friend, as a green party, ultra liberal sexually and non traditional would be one of the first people to be arrested after they got all of the homosexuals and cam girls:) 

This again, is, well, word salad. If I were not so amused, there is much I could take issue with, (count yourself lucky that you did not engage some other less easily amused forum member – you have set yourself up to be drawn & quartered.) One comment on this bit, is that if you knew me at all, (good idea to have some sense of ppl who you attact), you would know I am both a Cam Girl at times & also a homosexual at times, those being those times when I am a CamGirl.

WTF is my point? We need population control to help the environment.

This is not bad. You have left a question unanswered, but you are correct, we do need to to our best to reduce the rate of pop growth.


RE: Family- The basic family unit produces the best outcomes in terms of education, incarceration, income and general productivity and happiness than any other system. It is the breakdown of this family unit that has fucked up society and devastated the black community. Why? Because having a mom and dad to teach you right from wrong works better than not having that. Single motherhood is also the biggest predictor of poverty...so I would suggest to you that your wish that we were just one big sex commune would not work. 

Back to the Environment for a minute... China is now the biggest producer of pollution in the world. That is one of the reasons why they are able to make goods so cheaply. Virtually no environmental controls. You DO remember that when the Olympics were in China they had to ban all cars for 3 weeks to clear the air. Most of their food exports are contaminated with heavy metals. They are drowning in waste. Can I assume that you are boycotting all Chinese made products? Can I assume that you do not drive a car but instead bike when you can? What about the CO2 you are breathing out while biking? BTW I think global warming is 90% bullshit. The Earth has gone through thousands on cyclical climate changes and there isn't a damn thing man can do to change this. We can save this world by stamping out totalitarian philosophies, controlling population, developing non carbon forms of energy and encouraging behavior that helps others rather than just ourselves.
 Batshit, Batshit, Batshit! A final point: Your words are full of assumptions, speculation, and what seem to be just random shots in the dark. When these things are aimed at a person they will take it personally. You do not know what my wishes are, or what my beliefs are concerning sex, or anything else about me not in this thread. It turns out you are pretty much spot on with the whole sexual commune stuff. But I own no car, and do bike almost 100% of the time for transportation, using a car about 2 times a mouth on average. I use less than 50gal of water a day keeping myself and three dogs clean, and a small bonsai, and three other plants alive. And as for the CO2 while biking, I off set that with the bonsai which I am growing hydroponically in my ass.

BTW I think global warming is 90% bullshit.

See that ^^^^^^^^^ is good. We can work with that. You can tell me why and I can try to convince you you're wrong, and maybe we both learn something in the process.

and encouraging behavior that helps others rather than just ourselves.

This ^^^^^^^^ nice finish, and I think maybe something you truly believe. (With some effort I think you could be a part of the conversation – I manage it about a quarter of the time.) The other shit, let it go, and if you can't, at least somewhat, IMO go away, don't go away mad, just go away.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ACFFAN69
Status
Not open for further replies.