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Who would you vote for?

  • Donald Trump

  • Hillary Clinton

  • Bernie Sanders

  • Gary Johnson (Libertarian Party)

  • Jill Stein (Green Party)

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I have said from day one I would not vote for Hillary. But did anyone catch the speech she gave today at the American Legion? Very inspiring.

She talked about Democrats, Republicans, and Independents united as one. She also defended our great land from the criticism it endured from Putin and Trump (who incidentally couldn't even get his story straight about his meeting with the president of Mexico).

Very inspiring indeed.
Moving-picture-United-States-of-America-flag-waving-in-wind-animated-gif.gif
 
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i was simply wndering why ppl who hate american values insist on living in usa
as far as seeing things in my comment... is similar thinking pattern that makes comments about "mexico sends rapists" into "mexicans are rapists" and "hating mexicans"

so let me say this in a more politcally correct way for you Genxoxo : why do ppl who hate american values and want to make it into socialistic paradise by putting into use socialistic ideas (all that america does not stand for) why dont they simply leave usa and find a country that already has these ideas implemented to better fit their own value system
 
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i was simply wndering why ppl who hate american values insist on living in usa
as far as seeing things in my comment... is similar thinking pattern that makes comments about "mexico sends rapists" into "mexicans are rapists" and "hating mexicans"

so let me say this in a more politcally correct way for you Genxoxo : why do ppl who hate american values and want to make it into socialistic paradise by putting into use socialistic ideas (all that america does not stand for) why dont they simply leave usa and find a country that already has these ideas implemented to better fit their own value system
Many Americans feel that trump supporters hate American values, because the opinion of American values is different from person to person.
What you consider American values another may consider anti-American.
It is a little subjective and THAT is some real American values.
 
i was simply wndering why ppl who hate american values insist on living in usa
as far as seeing things in my comment... is similar thinking pattern that makes comments about "mexico sends rapists" into "mexicans are rapists" and "hating mexicans"

so let me say this in a more politcally correct way for you Genxoxo : why do ppl who hate american values and want to make it into socialistic paradise by putting into use socialistic ideas (all that america does not stand for) why dont they simply leave usa and find a country that already has these ideas implemented to better fit their own value system

Why should I have to leave my friends, family and property because my ideas of American values differ from yours? Why should I defer to what YOU think America stands for? I'm an American citizen, I have a say in what America stands for.
 
Many Americans feel that trump supporters hate American values, because the opinion of American values is different from person to person.
which values exactly that Trump or his supporters hold are anti american acording to these ppl ?
honest question not trolling i want to see the perspective better and think about it i really want to learn how others see things :)
 
I do have beef with the people in power which is mostly the intellectual class, and I do think they have their head up their asses. Not everyone, obviously, there are intellectuals who are honest and who are intriguing like Haidt who, by the way, is a democrat. But he is doing a disservice to his ideology by publishing this book which contradicts so many things the left shills for, so he probably faced cold shoulders in places like Berkeley who aren't fond of intellectual diversity even when his values do match up. What makes Haidt stand out is there is intellectual honesty to him that is not present in much of the liberal arts university world.

According to Haidt's and other important political morality theories (such as the Moral Foundations theory) people's morality is determined by their genes, it is hereditary, and it is not rational, it comes from gut reactions to things they see. When someone agrees or disagrees with something it is usually the result of a very basic instinct. For example, most people will react right away if they see someone kick a dog. You don't need to think whether it is a good or bad thing, your gut screams: "MAKE IT STOP!" it is the same way with most moral values.

In that regard it isn't hard as a conservative to understand what values rule the mind of a true liberal (not the vultures that use them). An idealist liberal moves in 2 basic moral foundations: the care/harm foundation which is the most important thing in their moral world (save the dog! save the children! save the poor! save the environment! etc), and the liberty/oppression foundation (fight the rich, fight the powerful, bring power to the people. They share this foundation with libertarians). Since a conservative shares these 2 moral foundations he can usually understand where liberals come from which is why you will hardly ever see a conservative labeling people on the left unreasonable, of being "the far left!" or "talibans!" as often as liberals do to them.

The problem is actually the other way around. Liberals often don't understand conservative values because they don't share them. It is similar to the way a libertarian treats a liberal because they don't understand the care/harm foundation. To a libertarian taxation is theft because they don't feel a gut instinct to help their fellow human who is in a rough spot in the same way a liberal does.

Conservatives feel all 6 dimensions of morality, the ones that liberals feel, plus other dimensions that liberals don't feel. These are the dimensions that liberals have a hard time understanding:

Fairness/cheating: to a liberal the concept of cheating relates only to equality. People who make much more than others are "cheating" in the liberal mind regardless of how they made their fortune. But a conservative thinks in terms of proportionality. People should receive in the proportion in which they give. So if someone works harder than everyone else he should receive more than everyone else. Even if that means that there will be inequality. If someone doesn't work he isn't entitled to the earnings of those who did. When a conservative tries to explain this to a liberal the liberal thinks he lacks the care/harm foundation, that the conservative doesnt care about poor families or hungry children. Conservatives care, they just don't care to the expense of fairness, so it isn't the only thing they see.

Loyalty/betrayal: this relates to in-group loyalty so it is the basis for ideas of patriotism, nationalism, pride and tradition. In my opinion this foundation is possibly the most problematic for liberals to understand. Because not only do they not understand this value, they actively fight it with all their might. I recently read an article about a couple who give away 50% of what they make to poor villages in Africa. The husband's mother was sick with cancer and they refused to give her money because it would be taking money away from africans who need it more than her. The article argued that in order to be truly good you need to give your money to people who are completely unrelated to you. This paragraph from that article sums it up nicely:



You can read the rest of the article here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ould-you-care-for-strangers-as-much-as-family

It is an interesting difference in world view, you see, since the liberal has no grasp of loyalty/betrayal he sacrifices that moral dimension in the altar of care/harm. Since the only value that truly matters is to take care of people who are struggling then the only thing that you must take into account is who is suffering more. The conservative understands taking care of people suffering, he just has to balance that feeling with the feeling of loyalty he feels towards his people.

But liberals often mock this and call this natural instinct regressive, even evil. Talking about nationalism for the left is a sin akin to calling yourself a nazi. Feeling proud of your group or of who you are beyond what your profession is, is something that the left finds insulting. So anyone voting for Trump who promises to "Make America Great Again" is a fanatic! How dare you want to Make America Great Again when there are other countries suffering more? Why don't you want to Make Mexico Great Again too? You must be Hitler.

Authority/subversion: this foundation is about hierarchy. Accepting vertical order or revolting against it. The conservative mind likes order, vertical order, the idea that there is a leader and followers, or an elite of people who are better than others at what they do, etc. But when a liberal sees hierarchy all he sees is oppression/liberty, they think any vertical order is arbitrary and most be abolished in order to end oppression.

Sanctity/degradation: a conservative feels a gut reaction when they see someone use the American flag to clean a toilet. Or when someone spits on a religious symbol like the cross. A liberal doesn't so he doesn't understand what the fuzz is about. It is even funny to a liberal to do these things just to irk the nearest conservative, which is why many pieces of modern art revolve around things like putting a toilet in a museum.

If you like this theory and are interested in learning more you can take tests on their website to see how you score in the moral foundations. Here is the link: http://www.yourmorals.org/explore.php

Well, I've taken 5 of the YourMorals tests. They're kind of addictive, lol. Here are my results from the first one, concerning distributive justice:

Screen Shot 2016-08-31 at 6.28.06 PM.png
I actually scored below the Conservative average in each category! Does this mean I'm not a liberal? No, it means I'm not a stereotype or archetype. Same is true of any individual, conservative or liberal. I think my score can be explained by the mindset I approached this with. For example, I believe that ideally, everyone should have at least their minimum needs met. But I know that this is not feasible at this time--hopefully in the future it will be. But today, it would create more problems, because most people, including me, do not believe that simply throwing money at poverty will accomplish much, and they would object to being compelled to do this. Society just hasn't evolved to the necessary level yet.

Your example of the couple who "give away 50% of what they make to poor villages in Africa" is an extreme case that should not be generalized to all liberals. These two people are almost certainly very liberal; no doubt about it. The fact that they are so unique and hard to understand--even for liberals--is why they made the news in the first place. If you could survey everyone in the USA who call themselves liberal, I would be surprised if more than one percent have done, or would consider doing, something like this. Personally, I find what they did morally abhorrent. Does that mean I'm not a liberal?

Only God is in the position to operate under the rule that "the only thing that you must take into account is who is suffering more." This is one reason I find their behavior morally objectionable. There's a big element of hubris in their approach. How do they know that these particular African villages are truly the most in need of their assistance? Obviously, they don't know and they can't know. Humans have limited knowledge and finite resources, which means that they must first take care of their own needs, along with the needs of their family and community.

Sanctity/degradation: You used some extreme examples of disrespecting the flag. Here again, extremes can be used to clarify a point, but they are not good for characterizing the qualities of a large group. Very few liberals would see those activities as acceptable. Some would react more strongly than others. A month or two ago in this forum, I expressed dismay at the recent fad of flying a bastardized American flag, aka the gratuitous and ugly "thin blue line" flag. (If liberals did something similar. . . .) Does this mean I'm not a liberal?

Reality/factual orientation: This is one that's not on your list, and I don't see it on the YourMorals list. Maybe it hasn't been traditionally considered a moral quality. As someone with a science background, I do consider it a moral matter. For example, when someone (usually on the right) denies the reality of climate change, I'm baffled. This issue has been politicized for reasons I can't fathom. The only reason I can think of that makes any rational sense is that the countermeasures (reducing emissions, etc.) will be a new cost borne by businesses and societies. However, I don't get the sense that this is the reason. It seems instead to be some kind of tribal marker of identity. The way I look at it, the experts in the field have made a good case, they're saying action needs to be taken, and that's good enough for me. Are science and facts liberal?
 
which values exactly that Trump or his supporters hold are anti american acording to these ppl ?
honest question not trolling i want to see the perspective better and think about it i really want to learn how others see things :)

Here are some big ways that his values are anti-American;

His ban on Muslims entering the country and a possible religious test goes against the American value of freedom of religion. Even as an atheist, I respect that value highly, if only to help protect my own rights.

His threats over strengthening libel laws and his fear of the press goes against our freedoms of speech.

I don't particularly idolize the military like many Americans but his lack of respect for veterans who disagree with him is especially egregious. It shows to me that he doesn't care at all for the people in our military and won't hesitate to use them to further his own ends only to discard them like trash.

He's actively undermining our system of elective government with his accusations of rigged this and rigged that and claiming the only way Clinton could win is through cheating. It boggles me how anyone can't see how dangerous this is. Especially at a time when peoples' faith in the system is so low.

I'll let you chew on that.
 
Well, I've taken 5 of the YourMorals tests. They're kind of addictive, lol. Here are my results from the first one, concerning distributive justice:

View attachment 65314
I actually scored below the Conservative average in each category! Does this mean I'm not a liberal? No, it means I'm not a stereotype or archetype. Same is true of any individual, conservative or liberal. I think my score can be explained by the mindset I approached this with. For example, I believe that ideally, everyone should have at least their minimum needs met. But I know that this is not feasible at this time--hopefully in the future it will be. But today, it would create more problems, because most people, including me, do not believe that simply throwing money at poverty will accomplish much, and they would object to being compelled to do this. Society just hasn't evolved to the necessary level yet.

Your example of the couple who "give away 50% of what they make to poor villages in Africa" is an extreme case that should not be generalized to all liberals. These two people are almost certainly very liberal; no doubt about it. The fact that they are so unique and hard to understand--even for liberals--is why they made the news in the first place. If you could survey everyone in the USA who call themselves liberal, I would be surprised if more than one percent have done, or would consider doing, something like this. Personally, I find what they did morally abhorrent. Does that mean I'm not a liberal?

Only God is in the position to operate under the rule that "the only thing that you must take into account is who is suffering more." This is one reason I find their behavior morally objectionable. There's a big element of hubris in their approach. How do they know that these particular African villages are truly the most in need of their assistance? Obviously, they don't know and they can't know. Humans have limited knowledge and finite resources, which means that they must first take care of their own needs, along with the needs of their family and community.

Sanctity/degradation: You used some extreme examples of disrespecting the flag. Here again, extremes can be used to clarify a point, but they are not good for characterizing the qualities of a large group. Very few liberals would see those activities as acceptable. Some would react more strongly than others. A month or two ago in this forum, I expressed dismay at the recent fad of flying a bastardized American flag, aka the gratuitous and ugly "thin blue line" flag. (If liberals did something similar. . . .) Does this mean I'm not a liberal?

Reality/factual orientation: This is one that's not on your list, and I don't see it on the YourMorals list. Maybe it hasn't been traditionally considered a moral quality. As someone with a science background, I do consider it a moral matter. For example, when someone (usually on the right) denies the reality of climate change, I'm baffled. This issue has been politicized for reasons I can't fathom. The only reason I can think of that makes any rational sense is that the countermeasures (reducing emissions, etc.) will be a new cost borne by businesses and societies. However, I don't get the sense that this is the reason. It seems instead to be some kind of tribal marker of identity. The way I look at it, the experts in the field have made a good case, they're saying action needs to be taken, and that's good enough for me. Are science and facts liberal?

The problem with what you are saying is there are exceptions and variations in everything but we need to simplify in order to talk about things and not everyone will be represented to the T in a generalization, but that is what generalizations are for, so we can simplify reality to talk about it.

We could say that a table is a piece of furniture with a flat surface used for eating that usually has 4 legs. You could then claim: "not all tables are for eating" true. "Not all tables are flat on the surface" true also and "not all tables have 4 legs" also true. So what do we do? Do we get rid of language? No, because we understand that even though there are exceptions and variations we agree on what the concept of a table means and most tables fall within that description.

With the couple from the article, I did not use them like they were a representation of a majority of liberals, I used them as a perfect example of what liberal ideology holds true. It is a good example precisely because of how extreme it is. And even when you call them "bizarre" the were the darlings of liberal media from the Guardian to the NY Times to the front page of Reddit for a month because of how "selfless" they are. So I think it is fair to say that liberals identify with the concept of helping others that have no connection to them before helping their own in-group. There are many others examples of this: adopting kids from Cambodia before adopting kids from your own city, accepting Syrian immigrants and giving them welfare that you don't even give your own poor people and a long list of similar things.

We can also agree that even if the Wise couple cannot know for sure whether each African person their money goes to is truly in more need than people elsewhere, we can safely say that there is a very slim chance that American people are going through the same hardships Africans are going to. They probably did quite a bit of research since they are giving away 50% of what they make to them.

Either way I think you are just nitpicking my posts for fun or to pass the time and I think everyone understands what I am trying to say well, it is a bit boring having to explain the same concepts 50 times and clarify what is already evident so I want to step back and let others interact with you on the thread.
 
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Forgive me, I'm not very educated; having a little trouble keeping up here.

If one story about a family sending money to Africa instead of paying Mawmaw's doctor bill is enough to make a case for liberals having a worldview with no grasp of loyalty/betrayal.....

...then how many white supremacists must support Trump before we label his movement racist?

Apologies if this is a dumb question. I'm in way over my head :(
 
Here are some big ways that his values are anti-American;

His ban on Muslims entering the country and a possible religious test goes against the American value of freedom of religion. Even as an atheist, I respect that value highly, if only to help protect my own rights.

His threats over strengthening libel laws and his fear of the press goes against our freedoms of speech.

I don't particularly idolize the military like many Americans but his lack of respect for veterans who disagree with him is especially egregious. It shows to me that he doesn't care at all for the people in our military and won't hesitate to use them to further his own ends only to discard them like trash.

He's actively undermining our system of elective government with his accusations of rigged this and rigged that and claiming the only way Clinton could win is through cheating. It boggles me how anyone can't see how dangerous this is. Especially at a time when peoples' faith in the system is so low.

I'll let you chew on that.
This pretty well sums up what I was going to answer with as well, for the most part. I can not speak for other peoples reasons but these are a small jist of mine... For someone who can't shut up about the second amendment he sure wants to undermine our constitution in other ways.
 
Forgive me, I'm not very educated; having a little trouble keeping up here.

If one story about a family sending money to Africa instead of paying Mawmaw's doctor bill is enough to make a case for liberals having a worldview with no grasp of loyalty/betrayal.....

...then how many white supremacists must support Trump before we label his movement racist?

Apologies if this is a dumb question. I'm in way over my head :(
Sarcasm aside, this is actually a pretty decent point.
 
I agree that feelers are more likely to vote Democrat, but I also think all decent Americans are kind of left in a pickle by the current state of both parties. The Republicans used to be the working man's party. That's certainly no so anymore, but many older folks whose hearts are genuinely for their fellow countrymen still vote Republican having done so all of their lives. The Republican party has been pirated by the fake religious extremists and rich people. The Democratic party has been taken over by fake liberals/progressives and rich people. I don't think the problem is so much in the average US citizen as it is in the party system and the illusions we're fed. Both parties are ultimately rich, egotistical money grubbers parading themselves as something they think will appeal to us.

Sidenote: It's weird to me that some of you are saying academics=democrat and working class=republican. Most of the people I know who are openly elephants vote with their wallet and are honest about it. They didn't get a wallet worth protecting without school. Meanwhile, most of the shop rats vote dem.
 
so let me say this in a more politcally correct way for you Genxoxo : why do ppl who hate american values and want to make it into socialistic paradise by putting into use socialistic ideas (all that america does not stand for) why dont they simply leave usa and find a country that already has these ideas implemented to better fit their own value system

I don't think that the goal is to make the US into a "socialistic paradise" but I want to point out that a LOT of things we have are socialist.

Libraries, fire departments, public schools, national parks? All funded by our taxes.

And wanting to see the country continuing to improve is not "hating american values", and even if it was, values change. Should African Americans been told during the civil rights movement, "If you don't like it, GTFO"? Or when women were fighting for equal pay or the right to vote? What about when we decided to legalize gay marriage? I've been told that homosexuality is going against American values, likewise 'woen as a homemaker and men working outside of the house, a traditional American family' is also supposedly one of the American values. Should countries never change/develop? Should we return to things as they were when the constitution was signed and stick with the values of those days? Or perhaps should we allow the knowledge we have gained over the centuries to help us further our nation?
 
Sidenote: It's weird to me that some of you are saying academics=democrat and working class=republican. Most of the people I know who are openly elephants vote with their wallet and are honest about it. They didn't get a wallet worth protecting without school. Meanwhile, most of the shop rats vote dem.

Let's not forget that labor unions are traditional allies of the Democratic party. Plenty of working class people in unions.
 
If one story about a family sending money to Africa instead of paying Mawmaw's doctor bill is enough to make a case for liberals having a worldview with no grasp of loyalty/betrayal.....
the story is what she used i am sure there are more stories but to give more examples she would have to be on the forum 24/7 and i think she has a job and needs sleep like anyone and for some it will never be enough no matter how many stories
 
The fact that the 1st lady is allowed to say things about the country that might be seen as negative IS an American value, btw. We don't have to bow down before our flag or leaders. That's American value number one. You don't have to like what she says. You don't have to agree with what she says. You can say anything you like in return. But, if you think someone making a negative comment about this country means they should leave or be made to leave, you're the one who doesn't understand American values and patriotism.
 
carro89.jpg regarding supremacist supporting trump comment( if any) is completely different topic as these will find their way into anything and it does not represent trump values sorry and what is this pic above anyway? i think that is like completely different topic
 
View attachment 65316 regarding supremacist supporting trump comment( if any) is completely different topic as these will find their way into anything and it does not represent trump values sorry and what is this pic above anyway? i think that is like completely different topic
I'm not understanding the conspiracy stuff you keep posting.

Hilary shaking a persons hand? Michelle whispering something to Obama that has dubbing put over it (side note, it's supposedly based on what someone who specializes in lip reading thinks she's said but anyone that knows anything about lip reading would tell you that context is a HUGE part of lip-reading, as in you need to be having a conversation with that person to know what they're saying because most lip movements can be filled in with any number of words).
 
The fact that the 1st lady is allowed to say things about the country that might be seen as negative IS an American value, btw. We don't have to bow down before our flag or leaders. That's American value number one. You don't have to like what she says. You don't have to agree with what she says. You can say anything you like in return. But, if you think someone making a negative comment about this country means they should leave or be made to leave, you're the one who doesn't understand American values and patriotism.
there we go again..i think i explained that one as in why do themselves dont want to leave as in omg...how many times can i explain however regarding first lady saying this bout american flag oh wow is completely ok and it shows how she feels and is american value but how come first lady feels this way bout american flag?
 
there we go again..i think i explained that one as in why do themselves dont want to leave as in omg...how many times can i explain however regarding first lady saying this bout american flag oh wow is completely ok and it shows how she feels and is american value but how come first lady feels this way bout american flag?
You can explain it as many times as you like, but you'll still be wrong. The point isn't that what she said is okay or isn't okay. It doesn't matter how you feel about or how I feel about it. She's allowed to say it. Why does she feel that way? Why does she stay? How should we know. Not for us to know. Not for us to question. She's an American. She has the right to stay and say what she likes.
 
conspiracy stuff? the video is right there on the internet
That's where conspiracy stuff is, the internet is where EVERYTHING is. I'm not sure what you mean by it's "right there on the internet". Like, does that make it true?

Also, we don't know if that's what Michelle even said for the reason I explained in the post you replied to. I'd need proof beyond "a lip reader said xyz" because lip reading is not an exact science.
 
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how do you know what you reading is true?

Politifact is a incredibly reputable site and they interviewed the director of The River School (the school attributed with translating what Michelle said) and they stated that they had nothing to do with it.

I'm more apt to believe a website like Politifact than some random youtube conspiracy channel.
 
I'm more apt to believe a website like Politifact than some random youtube conspiracy channel.
they are not let you join the alt-right with that sort of attitude
 
I don't think that the goal is to make the US into a "socialistic paradise" but I want to point out that a LOT of things we have are socialist.

Libraries, fire departments, public schools, national parks? All funded by our taxes.

And wanting to see the country continuing to improve is not "hating american values", and even if it was, values change. Should African Americans been told during the civil rights movement, "If you don't like it, GTFO"? Or when women were fighting for equal pay or the right to vote? What about when we decided to legalize gay marriage? I've been told that homosexuality is going against American values, likewise 'woen as a homemaker and men working outside of the house, a traditional American family' is also supposedly one of the American values. Should countries never change/develop? Should we return to things as they were when the constitution was signed and stick with the values of those days? Or perhaps should we allow the knowledge we have gained over the centuries to help us further our nation?

Spending on libraries, parks, welfare, and other social initiatives is not the essence of what socialism is, those are populist measures. Many socialist movements also have a strong populist streak, but many parts of right wing ideology do too. Right wing is not only libertarians and neocons. Some parts do advocate for the same things because populism is on both sides of the spectrum. The only difference is who each group considers the beneficiaries of these programs should be. Socialists advocate for "universal" programs, for example in Europe where they extend welfare to anyone who comes in the country: tourists, illegals, anyone at all. While the right wing thinks welfare is only for the citizens.

Populism wasn't born with socialism, they go as far back as civilization from Egypt to Babylon to Macedonia to Rome. Even what you label "the Far Right" is populist, dictators like Pinochet, Franco, Mussolini, or even Hitler had a strong welfare system and heavy spending on the people: building parks, libraries, hospitals, schools and huge monuments is part of any populist regime.

What makes socialism a distinct ideology is the use of politics to achieve material equality (redistribution of wealth) with policies such as heavy taxation on the rich, communal ownership of the means of production through seizing, and culturally it is a disregard for tradition, a negation of natural order, in favor of ideology, experimentation, and man made designs.
 
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