Who are you voting for?

[justjoinedtopost]

You don't have to reply to every single post I write on ACF @justjoinedtopost your obsession with me is kinda creepy.

It is because I find your posts intellectually stimulating.

They paint a picture of a brilliant mind at war with its own ignorance. It is a fascinating thing to behold.

 

[Mila_]

It is because I find your posts intellectually stimulating.

Ew.

 

[Lili_xo]

I am not even going to bother to take apart these comments and analyze. Just wanted to say I disagree with justijoinedtopost vision of trump and some other stuff.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

When someone crosses the border illegally they skip this process so you have no idea who is going in, who they are, what is their intention in the US, if they can sustain themselves or not, or if they have a 5 page long rap sheet. You don't know who they are. Maybe it is a good person full of hope but kinda cooky who dislikes rules and that is why she skipped the legal procedure. Maybe it is a sex offender escaping the law from his country of origin who wants to rape children. Maybe the goal for illegal immigrant #1 is to feed his family, maybe the goal for illegal immigrant #2 is to sell meth for his drug cartel. The US doesn't know. And there is a risk involved for you and your children when people are pouring in that you have no idea who they are. Crossing a border is a huge red flag.

First, thanks for explaining why you support Trump. Now here is where we disagree.
At least 1/2 the problem with Mexican and South Americans crossing the border to look for the jobs is the same problem with have with drugs crossing the border. America has a high demand for two things, cheap labor, and illegal drugs. In this case, cheap labor Donald Trump has been part of the problem not the solution. There have been numerous examples of Trump's company either directly or through sub-contractors hiring illegal immigrants from Poland, Mexico, the Carribean etc and paying them low wages. If you want to solve the problem with illegal immigration you also have to reduce the demand. Trump says nothing new about making it harder for employers to hire illegal workers, and hardly ever talks about things like E-Verify that responsible politicians like Rubio focused on.
When the economy tanks like it did in 2008/2009 one of the first thing that occurs is we saw a dramatic decrease in the number of illegal crossing of the Southern border. So maybe Trump's secret plan to stop illegal immigration is to fuck up the economy so there is no demand for cheap workers.

But illegal immigration you describe is only 60% of the problem. 40% of the problem with illegal immigration problem in this country is people either over staying their visas, or working illegally here on while on tourist, education, spousal visa etc. This is hardly a problem just limited to Mexicans. I know dozens of camgirl from Canada, UK, Europe, South America etc. who have come to the US and cammed illegally while attending an Exotica, or a Camgirl Mansion-like event. I have yet to hear of any of them obtaining a B1-2, or H Visa to work here. I know at least that MFC turns a blind eye to this practice, and I suspect other websites do also. This is also hardly just a problem of foreigners being rule breakers, I also know of dozens of American camgirls that have traveled overseas, in some cases live in places like Mexico or Australia who cam illegally on a tourist visa.

I've met many immigrants over the years. Broadly speaking there are two groups: guys with engineering degrees who got H1B visa sponsored by a company, and then there is everybody else. The engineer generally worked for the sponsoring company until they got a green card, at which point many of them found a new job. Everybody else includes spouses, students, tourists who feel in love with the place. In the vast majority of cases, because the process of getting a green card takes so long in the US, these people took an illegal job at some point during their stay where they were paid cash or given free rent. Now maybe you were one of the lucky people that got your green card quickly and never worked here illegally but I think you'd be the exception, not the rule.
There are lots and lots of people who breaks laws in this country, why we should come down particularly hard on folks who break immigration laws is a bit of mystery.

 

[LuckySmiles]

I understand this is Bill... not Hillary.... and they are two different people... but let's keep it real. They share politics. Start the vid somewhere around 8 minutes up until 11 min. This is the warped logic that I cannot wrap my head around...

Ok... he talks about how in some places in the midwest there is large Syrian population already. assimilated Americans. Correct.
He goes as far to say, "talk bad about them and you'll get in a fight with an Irish or a Polish or an African American person defending them.."

correct. most americans are not bigots.Correct correct. I'm with ya billy boy!

BUT THEN he goes on to say... about how detroit... how there is so much job opportunity for all the syrian refugees to go there and rebuild the city....

hold the fucking phone Bill. Because... there are not enough....Americans... in Michigan of all places.... who... need jobs... who... are unemployed....

????????????????

Because we could not set up the same program in America... for Americans to benefit the Americans... who ARE ALREADY HERE from all these countries.

????????????????

does no one else take issue with this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills... I will have some chill pills if you can spare.

There are over 200,000 people unemployed in Michigan... Something like 80,000+ of them live within Detroit city limits alone. I do not comprehend. None of the people already there might want dibs on those jobs?? It's not like the Syrian/Lebanese population of Michigan just got here last week, they've been there for over 100 years, too Bill. Many of them worked for THE AMERICAN AUTO INDUSTRY.

Maybe they would like in on some of this magically detroit job fairy dust as well? or is that just for refugee Syrians...

My family has not even been in America 100 years and something smells off so... I can't be the only one.
It's impossible to take seriously though because it's such a joke. You mean you've had this magically job plan for the area for such a long time, and have been hiding it or something?! lol. like... hey! I know where we can make jobs! Detroit! For syrians! and they can fix the city! Because... America! WAAATTTT. I give up.

( also Syria is not the only country involved in sending refugees,it includes Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan, etc)

 

[Mila_]

First, thanks for explaining why you support Trump. Now here is where we disagree.
At least 1/2 the problem with Mexican and South Americans crossing the border to look for the jobs is the same problem with have with drugs crossing the border. America has a high demand for two things, cheap labor, and illegal drugs. In this case, cheap labor Donald Trump has been part of the problem not the solution. There have been numerous examples of Trump's company either directly or through sub-contractors hiring illegal immigrants from Poland, Mexico, the Carribean etc and paying them low wages. If you want to solve the problem with illegal immigration you also have to reduce the demand. Trump says nothing new about making it harder for employers to hire illegal workers, and hardly ever talks about things like E-Verify that responsible politicians like Rubio focused on.
When the economy tanks like it did in 2008/2009 one of the first thing that occurs is we saw a dramatic decrease in the number of illegal crossing of the Southern border. So maybe Trump's secret plan to stop illegal immigration is to fuck up the economy so there is no demand for cheap workers.

But illegal immigration you describe is only 60% of the problem. 40% of the problem with illegal immigration problem in this country is people either over staying their visas, or working illegally here on while on tourist, education, spousal visa etc. This is hardly a problem just limited to Mexicans. I know dozens of camgirl from Canada, UK, Europe, South America etc. who have come to the US and cammed illegally while attending an Exotica, or a Camgirl Mansion-like event. I have yet to hear of any of them obtaining a B1-2, or H Visa to work here. I know at least that MFC turns a blind eye to this practice, and I suspect other websites do also. This is also hardly just a problem of foreigners being rule breakers, I also know of dozens of American camgirls that have traveled overseas, in some cases live in places like Mexico or Australia who cam illegally on a tourist visa.

I've met many immigrants over the years. Broadly speaking there are two groups: guys with engineering degrees who got H1B visa sponsored by a company, and then there is everybody else. The engineer generally worked for the sponsoring company until they got a green card, at which point many of them found a new job. Everybody else includes spouses, students, tourists who feel in love with the place. In the vast majority of cases, because the process of getting a green card takes so long in the US, these people took an illegal job at some point during their stay where they were paid cash or given free rent. Now maybe you were one of the lucky people that got your green card quickly and never worked here illegally but I think you'd be the exception, not the rule.
There are lots and lots of people who breaks laws in this country, why we should come down particularly hard on folks who break immigration laws is a bit of mystery.

You raise very interesting points. I wish I was on my computer so I could look up and link you to the actual policies Trump has talked about cause he has actually touched on many of the issues that you brought up. I will do it when I get a chance. Meanwhile I will give you my opinion.

As a business person Trump did many questionable things. Among them he donated to the Clintons a few times. He donated to democrats often even when he has been a declared republican since the 80s and he has talked about it. What he says is being a business owner is not like being a political leader. As a business owner you take advantage of everything you have at your disposal because that is what business is. As a president or as a citizen he acts a different way. You can't hold a person who is not in office like they were. I haven't seen anything convincing about Trump knowingly hiring illegals but I also haven't done a research on it. He works with many different contractors and media loves to twist stuff so I will look it up when I am on my computer and see what is up.

On the subject of immigration and "why this why now" there are many problems with immigration including the ones you mention and others like h1b visas being abused by tech companie and since workers cannot quit without losing their visa they end up treating them as slaves, overworking them and underpaying them and Americans in STEM aren't even considered for those jobs anymore. Many many problems.

However we have to see that if we want to fix immigration we need to set priorities. Is a tourist who overstayed his visa for a week breaking the law? Sure. Is he our priority? Not really. He is just spending more money in the US and he has a visa so he was already vetted to begin with. Is a Canadian camgirl who goes to Portland to cam with her American camgirl friend breaking the law? Sure. Should it be the US priority? Hardly.

Your immigrant friends all sound like middle class professionals from similar cultures. This is a universe apart from the kind of people who are currently crossing the border. The people crossing the border are criminals involved with the cartels and these people are nothing like you and me. South American gangs are as scary and violent as ISIS, they cut heads and kill people in the most medieval ways without even flinching. Obviously not every person who crosses is like this but there are many people like this crossing and small time criminals and people who are so poor and unskilled they will be a burden to the US. The top priority is stopping the influx of people coming in without a filter. The US needs to vet them. This is the first priority with the wall.

The second priority is fixing the illegal worker problem and I have to say you are right on the money with your point that Trump should put pressure on companies to crack down on illegal workers too, not just depend on the wall. I have to say I thought his plan included some form of e-verify and self deportation, but I don't remember now if he has ever said anything about it. I think he hasn't. He did say though but he took it back since, that he was going to change the h1b visa requirements to make it impossible for companies to abuse it. I hope he talks more about things like that.

Then, once these 2 issues get fixed we can start to crack down on British girls who missed the plane and overstayed their waiver for a day or tourists who have a conference call with their office back in France while vacationing in LA.

 

[Worship Jaclyn]

I understand this is Bill... not Hillary.... and they are two different people... but let's keep it real. They share politics. Start the vid somewhere around 8 minutes up until 11 min. This is the warped logic that I cannot wrap my head around...

Ok... he talks about how in some places in the midwest there is large Syrian population already. assimilated Americans. Correct.
He goes as far to say, "talk bad about them and you'll get in a fight with an Irish or a Polish or an African American person defending them.."

correct. most americans are not bigots.Correct correct. I'm with ya billy boy!

BUT THEN he goes on to say... about how detroit... how there is so much job opportunity for all the syrian refugees to go there and rebuild the city....

hold the fucking phone Bill. Because... there are not enough....Americans... in Michigan of all places.... who... need jobs... who... are unemployed....

????????????????

Because we could not set up the same program in America... for Americans to benefit the Americans... who ARE ALREADY HERE from all these countries.

????????????????

does no one else take issue with this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills... I will have some chill pills if you can spare.

There are over 200,000 people unemployed in Michigan... Something like 80,000+ of them live within Detroit city limits alone. I do not comprehend. None of the people already there might want dibs on those jobs?? It's not like the Syrian/Lebanese population of Michigan just got here last week, they've been there for over 100 years, too Bill. Many of them worked for THE AMERICAN AUTO INDUSTRY.

Maybe they would like in on some of this magically detroit job fairy dust as well? or is that just for refugee Syrians...

My family has not even been in America 100 years and something smells off so... I can't be the only one.
It's impossible to take seriously though because it's such a joke. You mean you've had this magically job plan for the area for such a long time, and have been hiding it or something?! lol. like... hey! I know where we can make jobs! Detroit! For syrians! and they can fix the city! Because... America! WAAATTTT. I give up.

( also Syria is not the only country involved in sending refugees,it includes Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan, etc)

I'm just watching this thread without getting involved but I think people familiar with Michigan and Detroit tend to be very overprotective of Detroit because literally not one fucking person understands what is going on in that damn city. I feel like people don't want to put money in Detroit as it is with it's current population because they have no faith in it/us. But now we have young professional hipsters who are originally from Michigan moving there hoping it'll be the next Brooklyn in twenty years and people take so much pride in living there and working there because they want to rebuild. Detroit is just this horrible thing that no one with any power wants to fix because it's so far gone but it's also this sad thing that they can use for votes and empathy. Like just in saying he wants to help rebuild Detroit, he is getting praise from people because it's more than anyone else has will say.

So yes, I definitely agree with you. If it's our broken city then let our unemployed people get jobs there. 100%. Detroit is just a punch line and/or attention getter and until it turns around (because Michiganders do it for ourselves) it always will be.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

hold the fucking phone Bill. Because... there are not enough....Americans... in Michigan of all places.... who... need jobs... who... are unemployed....

????????????????

Because we could not set up the same program in America... for Americans to benefit the Americans... who ARE ALREADY HERE from all these countries.

????????????????

does no one else take issue with this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills... I will have some chill pills if you can spare.

You are not alone, not by a long shot. I hear you loud and clear on this.

American corporation built a factory. They needed a large sanitation crew, which they subcontracted out. It was 100% Latin Americans. They could not speak english. These weren't temporary positions either.

These were jobs that could have benefited people in the local area. They didn't. Amusingly, the immigrants showed a complete understanding of the principles of organized labor when their Mexican translator had a beef with the company. They all walked out . This was not a minimum wage issue either.

These Latin Americans were hard working, sure. They put up with some ridiculous work schedules. That does not make what happened socially responsible. It can only be justified if a corporate bottom line is the only thing that counts for anything.

 

[LuckySmiles]

Detroit is just this horrible thing that no one with any power wants to fix because it's so far gone but it's also this sad thing that they can use for votes and empathy. Like just in saying he wants to help rebuild Detroit, he is getting praise from people because it's more than anyone else has will say..

Exactly that is what is so evil about it. Because on the surface if you don't think about it critically he's painting himself as this big humanitarian!! Like broken city! lost refugees! BOOM! I saved the world! Go me!

No.... no Bill, you're just a dick.

 

[SexySteph]

I know dozens of camgirl from Canada, UK, Europe, South America etc. who have come to the US and cammed illegally while attending an Exotica, or a Camgirl Mansion-like event. I have yet to hear of any of them obtaining a B1-2, or H Visa to work here. I know at least that MFC turns a blind eye to this practice, and I suspect other websites do also. This is also hardly just a problem of foreigners being rule breakers, I also know of dozens of American camgirls that have traveled overseas, in some cases live in places like Mexico or Australia who cam illegally on a tourist visa.

To be fair, the laws haven't caught up with technology. Camgirls camming while in a country other than their own are not taking money or jobs away from the country they are in, they're taking money from the economy of the country they are from and putting it into where they are currently spending. The whole point of work visas are to limit taking jobs away from residents of that country. So if anything the US should be happy Canadian camgirls are visiting their friends and camming and spending their money in the US rather than leaving their money at home.

ETA: I was stopped at the Canadian border and they suspected I was traveling to Canada to strip (which would be taking jobs from legal residents) when one of the officers realized I was camgirl he helped to hurry things along because "you're not taking any jobs away and you're bringing American money into the country. The laws will catch up eventually".

 

[justjoinedtopost]

http://time.com/4466108/donald-trump-democracy/
Raises some interesting points on how a Trump loss might shape America. Important that we start thinking about this, since it is beginning to look more like a certainty with every word he utters.

Of course, he's not completely out of it yet. It is possible the election could be compromised. By hackers. From Russia. Who want to see Trump elected. Who he has openly appealed to for assistance in the form of cyberespionage. Even openly said they would be rewarded.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/fbi-states-voting-systems-digital-assualt-227523

Let's forget the accusations of bigotry, racism, dishonesty, or being completely unqualified. As an American, I now find myself asking the question "Is Donald Trump a traitor? Is he trying to undermine the Republic?"

I think the answer is a resounding yes. He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and from the time he learned to walk, he was doing it on the backs of the commoners. He doesn't want to serve this country. He wants to own it. He wants to rule it. He wants to hole up in a penthouse and lie naked beneath his own Presidential portrait while a bevy of scantily clad European women feed him peeled grapes.

Many of my fellow Americans have been seduced by Donald Trump. He has convinced them that their fears, their troubles, their struggles, their pain, is something he shares in; it is not. He wants them to hoist him on their shoulders and carry him to his rightful place on the throne, so that he can dismiss them with a wave of his hand and a recommendation that they eat cake.

 

[Nikola Tesla]

Something like 80,000+ of them live within Detroit city limits alone. I do not comprehend. None of the people already there might want dibs on those jobs??

The only people who haven't fled Detriot are hoodrats who are sitting on porches waiting for their next handout. Of course they don't want to work. Welfare pays better.

 

[Crumb]

there are times I actually believe that Trump once partook in a game of billionaire truth or dare. Trump obviously choose dare and the dare was "run for president.. and lose."
with some of the shit he spews, there can be no other explanation

 

[JickyJuly]

The only people who haven't fled Detriot are hoodrats who are sitting on porches waiting for their next handout. Of course they don't want to work. Welfare pays better.

Not sure if you're trolling or just have an understanding of Detroit created by the media for you, but you're definitely wrong. Anyone with half a brain can see the potential in Detroit just by being there for 5 minutes. Most of the people who stay in cities that are failing do so out of pride and family history.

 

[Nikola Tesla]

I have been in Detriot a hell of a lot longer than you have, You also fled for better places than Flint so don't start.

 

[JickyJuly]

I didn't say I was staying in my shit city out of pride. I'll be proud of it from afar. My choosing palm trees over shit weather, shit jobs and shit prospects doesn't mean other people aren't sticking with their stomping grounds out of love.

 

[Nikola Tesla]

 

[justjoinedtopost]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/donald-trump-model-management-illegal-immigration

Exactly what I have been saying all along. Trump has the high reward points, but when it comes to hitting that tip button, he's got some tiny, tiny hands...

 

[Osmia]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/donald-trump-model-management-illegal-immigration

Exactly what I have been saying all along. Trump has the high reward points, but when it comes to hitting that tip button, he's got some tiny, tiny hands...

Wouldn't it be funny if Trump was an actual cam site member? Ya never know. I can't decide if he would be a whale or a freeloader.

 

[Osmia]

In the August issue of Mother Jones, there's an article about Trump supporters, by Arlie Hochschild, who is a sociologist at UC Berkeley. If you're of a certain age, you may remember one of her many books called The Second Shift, from the late 1980s. For this article (and the book to be published in early September, titled Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right), Hochschild spent five years immersed in that culture. She seems to be empathetic and down to earth, because people talk to her quite freely.

Well worth a read if, like me, you're always trying to understand why Trump has such fervent support from a certain segment of the population (and why that segment's political demands won't go away if/when Trump is defeated and--hopefully--withdraws from politics). In fact, I think it's a mistake to overly identify Trump's supporters with Trump. He will go away (hopefully), but they won't. This is a political force that must be recognized and its concerns addressed by the mainstream political system, if future Trumps (or worse) are to be avoided.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Wouldn't it be funny if Trump was an actual cam site member? Ya never know. I can't decide if he would be a whale or a freeloader.

Probably a whale in the sense that he would tip a lot in the short term, which would pale in comparison to the things he promised.
Freeloader in the sense that he would screw over many small people to get those tokens with a bankruptcy and shady business moves.

More interesting to me is the question "What kind of room member would he be?". I think Penn Jillette's interview sheds a lot of light on this...


Trump's antisocial behaviours date back to his childhood. If he was not fortunate enough to be born into a family of means, he probably would have been a serial killer. We are lucky that he was able to channel his deceit, aggression, and desire to prey on others, into legal avenues (assuming he doesn't manage to get his finger on the button).

One thing I can't stand is the love bombing that has become synonymous with his name. You hear it all the time...Trump loves America...Trump loves us...or even Trump himself saying things about how someone came up to him and said "Mr. Trump, you know I love you...".

This is a huge red flag. This is boundary crossing in my book.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

In the August issue of Mother Jones, there's an article about Trump supporters, by Arlie Hochschild, who is a sociologist at UC Berkeley. If you're of a certain age, you may remember one of her many books called The Second Shift, from the late 1980s. For this article (and the book to be published in early September, titled Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right), Hochschild spent five years immersed in that culture. She seems to be empathetic and down to earth, because people talk to her quite freely.

Well worth a read if, like me, you're always trying to understand why Trump has such fervent support from a certain segment of the population (and why that segment's political demands won't go away if/when Trump is defeated and--hopefully--withdraws from politics). In fact, I think it's a mistake to overly identify Trump's supporters with Trump. He will go away (hopefully), but they won't. This is a political force that must be recognized and its concerns addressed by the mainstream political system, if future Trumps (or worse) are to be avoided.

Something else I have pondered. Suppose Trump gets elected. Let's say for the sake of argument, he manages to avoid disaster and just turns out to be a mediocre president. How would this political force respond to that disillusionment?

With more radicalization. More lies. More blame. More anger.

More incitement from their leaders. More misrepresentations from their propagandists. More exploitation of their plight. Because there is profit in it, and profit is the only thing that matters.

This happens on the left too, but it is nothing like what is taking place with the right. Not even close.

 

[LuckySmiles]

It does have to come from within. You have to feel a reason to want or be invested in your own community... which many Americans just don't anymore. For a multitude of reasons.

But if you feel like getting depressed about Detroit...
"what do you see as the main problem right now?"
"killing"
Also this video is crazy because pay attention to what they're saying on the news radio at the end. Spoiler alert. Clinton.



That whole youtube channel is full of videos of the bad stuff and it's all recent. But there's improvements, and change and people that are more hands on and involved in their community than in other places in America. That's what draws in a lot of people, or keeps them sticking around. But also why most are less inclined to worry much about people in other countries, when there's enough of this going on right here.

And for all of Trump's issues he's going to a Church this weekend in the middle of town. Clinton usually doesn't stray too far from where all the white people live.

Let's not forget Clinton was a senator in NY... there are plenty of the fallen "rust belt" economies in Western NY state. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, etc. that she never paid any attention to until now. The nutbar promised 200,000 jobs in upstate NY as senator... how'd that workout lolol.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...e-new-york-jobs-plan-was-a-bust/#ac18f4a96f57

People always citing her experience and record....Except it's terrible?

 

[Mila_]

In the August issue of Mother Jones, there's an article about Trump supporters, by Arlie Hochschild, who is a sociologist at UC Berkeley. If you're of a certain age, you may remember one of her many books called The Second Shift, from the late 1980s. For this article (and the book to be published in early September, titled Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right), Hochschild spent five years immersed in that culture. She seems to be empathetic and down to earth, because people talk to her quite freely.

Well worth a read if, like me, you're always trying to understand why Trump has such fervent support from a certain segment of the population (and why that segment's political demands won't go away if/when Trump is defeated and--hopefully--withdraws from politics). In fact, I think it's a mistake to overly identify Trump's supporters with Trump. He will go away (hopefully), but they won't. This is a political force that must be recognized and its concerns addressed by the mainstream political system, if future Trumps (or worse) are to be avoided.

This is the mindset that most regular people from the working class hate about the left: that they are mainly an intellectual class who looks at them over the shoulder with condescension.

The left doesn't engage with common sense workers at all. They simply try to "explain the phenomenon" because they don't think people who dissent are on their same level. Instead of looking at people who disagree like equals who are part of the same society, the left sees dissent as an error that must be fixed

 

[fandango]

Looking in from afar and chatting with my American friends from my time living there I think Trump will win quite comfortably. I see a lot of similarities to the Brexit vote we had recently in the UK. All the polls showed Brexit losing the same way they show Trump losing because a lot of people didn't want to come out and openly support Brexit for fears of being labelled racist, xenophobic or whatever label people like to throw around. So just like with the hidden Brexiters when the hidden Trump voters get to the voting booth his real percentage will be much higher than all the polls suggest and I'd bet that will be enough to tip it in his favour.

 

[Osmia]

This is the mindset that most regular people from the working class hate about the left: that they are mainly an intellectual class who looks at them over the shoulder with condescension.

The left doesn't engage with common sense workers at all. They simply try to "explain the phenomenon" because they don't think people who dissent are on their same level. Instead of looking at people who disagree like equals who are part of the same society, the left sees dissent as an error that must be fixed

Such a tendentious reading of my summary of an academic's attempt to do what they do best: to try to systematically understand the world around them, and to share that knowledge. (Or maybe you actually read the article, in which case, I'd be interested in your reaction to it.) Understanding leads to empathy and the finding of common ground, which supplants erroneous stereotypes on both sides. These are generally regarded as Good Things.

The left doesn't engage with common sense workers at all. They simply try to "explain the phenomenon" because they don't think people who dissent are on their same level.​

Reading the article, it seems like the author was nothing but engaged. She was seeking systematic understanding, beyond anecdotes and stereotypes, that can be published and then read by those who most need this understanding.

Instead of looking at people who disagree like equals who are part of the same society, the left sees dissent as an error that must be fixed.​

The tea party/Trump followers are equals, but in some senses they are not part of the same society as everyone else. "The Left" or academia, or whatever you want to call it, recognizes that this is not healthy for society as a whole nor for the political system, and so they have been trying to understand it, which is a precondition to doing something about it (not "fixing" it).

 

[justjoinedtopost]

"The Left" or academia, or whatever you want to call it, recognizes that this is not healthy for society as a whole nor for the political system, and so they have been trying to understand it, which is a precondition to doing something about it (not "fixing" it).

This is the first step, and it is much easier said than done: shutting down the propaganda on the right. Damned if I know how it can be done.

It is not the politicians. It is the politicians, the pundits, and the pastors. They encourage ignorance and bigotry. They demonize education and government. The more they dumb down their base, the dumber their base demands for them to be. They are caught in an infinite loop of lies and stupidity. They will drag America to the bottom if something does not change.

I'm speaking very generally here, of course. Not saying all on the right are like this; but we have definitely achieved critical mass.

I see the flaws on the left too. I've run afoul of the PC crowd myself. But the problems there are a molehill compared to the mountain of dysfunction on the right.

But hey...
as long as somebody profits...
it's all good...

 

[Osmia]

This is the first step, and it is much easier said than done: shutting down the propaganda on the right. Damned if I know how it can be done.

It is not the politicians. It is the politicians, the pundits, and the pastors. They encourage ignorance and bigotry. They demonize education and government. The more they dumb down their base, the dumber their base demands for them to be. They are caught in an infinite loop of lies and stupidity. They will drag America to the bottom if something does not change.

The problem is that both "sides" live largely in their own news/media world, and mostly talk to each other, which can lead to nothing good. That's what Hochschild's book is trying to redress. Another recent book is Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis. (Note: the author is one of the "hillbillies," and while he's "escaped" that life, he still considers himself to be from and of that culture. It's his term.) I haven't read this book yet, but I listened to a very interesting podcast in which the author was interviewed.

Here's an interesting article that basically upends the conventional wisdom that Fox News is the media arm of the Republican Party.

"They thought Fox News was the media arm or comms department of the GOP. But at some point the GOP, the institutional Republican party, the people who run campaigns, formulate policy or try to enact it, became a junior operational affiliate of Fox News. Whether Fox is principally a hugely profitable media company or an ideological endeavor is largely beside the point: the balance of power had shifted fundamentally. Like in decrepit, fragmenting imperial states where the powers-that-be keep on a powerless nominal emperor because he is so easy and convenient to dominate, a figure like John Boehner was kept at the helm by the fringe figures who had become the dominant force in GOP politics along with Fox News. Of course, that's the conceit of Trumpites and Fox, a populist rebellion against the 'establishment' and 'party elite.' Only that conceit is mainly self-flattery and it obscures the deeper fragmentation and institutional collapse within the GOP."​

Now, if I could just give myself a Facepalm to save a certain person the trouble..

 

[justjoinedtopost]

The problem is that both "sides" live largely in their own news/media world, and mostly talk to each other, which can lead to nothing good.

At the consumer level, a big part of this is the conditioning I think. I was raised extremely religious, extremely conservative. I reject those views now, but when I am in the car, I still listen to conservative talk radio or AM sermons. Feels more comfortable.

Very interesting article you linked. No chance of finding it now, but it reminds an article from years back regarding the influence of Limbaugh (think it was from the Clinton presidency era, read it in one of those old fashioned newspapers).

Our country is America. Love America
People who don't love America are your enemies
People who love America are just like you
Work for America
Be proud of America and all it has sacrificed
Anyone who speaks out against America is your enemy
We must fight with those who are against America
Don't believe liberal lies
Do not be ashamed of the America of yesterday. Stand up for her
We must make America great again

 

[Osmia]

At the consumer level, a big part of this is the conditioning I think. I was raised extremely religious, extremely conservative. I reject those views now, but when I am in the car, I still listen to conservative talk radio or AM sermons. Feels more comfortable.

Very interesting article you linked. No chance of finding it now, but it reminds an article from years back regarding the influence of Limbaugh (think it was from the Clinton presidency era, read it in one of those old fashioned newspapers).

Our country is America. Love America
People who don't love America are your enemies
People who love America are just like you
Work for America
Be proud of America and all it has sacrificed
Anyone who speaks out against America is your enemy
We must fight with those who are against America
Don't believe liberal lies
Do not be ashamed of the America of yesterday. Stand up for her
We must make America great again

From that same website, here's an article about Rush Limbaugh saying--on the air--that he never took seriously Trump's mass deportation promise:

The caller accused Limbaugh of "doing a disservice to all of us Republican primary voters" by refusing to call Trump's shift a flip-flop.

Limbaugh tried to defend Trump by arguing he hasn't shifted that much on the issue, while the caller pointed to Trump's comments during the primary where he said he would deport the 11 million immigrants.

"This is gonna enrage you. You know, I could choose a path here to try to mollify you, but," Limbaugh went on to say, "I never took him seriously on this."

The caller responded that millions people did.

"Yeah, and they still don't care! My point is they still don't care! They're gonna stick with him no matter what," Limbaugh said.​