TOS does not state "no pee" on CB??

[NotYou]

Hi. Some guy just asked a model for pee to be added to her tip menu, she and myself both said it's against the TOS and he said he doesn't see it int he TOS page. I could have sworn it is against he terms AND it is in print so I went to look. No where can I see it state no pee - or poo or vomit, even though I could have sworn they were specifically written there too.

I don't care at all about the latter too, just the "pee" one as so many ask for it.
So I am unsure, is this allowed or not? I have seen many models get warned and/or suspended/banned for it, yet I can not find it in the TOS anywhere - I read the section thoroughly and also tried searching (ctrl+f) for words such as pee, wee, urine, piss, poo, vomit - which yields no results.

https://chaturbate.com/terms/
Section 5 - I didn't read other sections maybe it is stated in one?

@punker barbie
I would really love this clarified please, for my sake and everyone else's - I understand pee is a very big desire/demand (I see a lot of guys asking for it from models). So if I am saying to them it's not allowed, I wanto know it definitely isn't.

Thanks in advance

 

[NotYou]

Just to add, I did find in 7a that it does state not to UPLOAD:

7. Content Posted on the Site.
Users and others are prohibited from uploading, sharing or in any way sharing or describing to anyone on or through the Site/Service any images or matters which, in our sole opinion, might be illegal or offensive, including, but not limited to, any content involving bestiality, urination or other bodily excretions, defamatory material or otherwise obscene material or any conduct that violates the prohibitions set forth under Chaturbate.com's Code of Conduct or any part of this Agreement



So they can stream ad do it but not upload a photo or video to sell/share of them doing it? I am so confused.

 

[shapman88]

This may or may not be what you're looking for. This is from previous conversations that @roydz and I have had with both @punker barbie and CB support.

It was explained to us that while pee, poop, vomit, bukkake and goatse used to be all specifically mentioned in the TOS, they have made the change to specifically mention bukkake and goatse while shifting the others into section 5O - Any action that may be deemed obscene in your community is prohibited. Since public urination and defecation would be deemed obscene and likely illegal in most areas, this would make it against the TOS to perform these acts on cam.

That being said, I 100% agree with your confusion. From my personal perspective, I think that having section 5O in the TOS to serve as an insurance policy to cover CB from any backlash stemming from needing to remove a user for doing something obscene that wasn't specifically outlined in any other item in section 5 is a great idea, however for acts such as pee, poop, vomit, bukkake, and goatse these should be explicitly mentioned as to not leave any wiggle room for personal interpretation that something may or may not be obscene and therefore not allowed on the site.

The TL;DR? It's still not allowed anywhere on CB.

 

[NotYou]

This may or may not be what you're looking for. This is from previous conversations that @roydz and I have had with both @punker barbie and CB support.

It was explained to us that while pee, poop, vomit, bukkake and goatse used to be all specifically mentioned in the TOS, they have made the change to specifically mention bukkake and goatse while shifting the others into section 5O - Any action that may be deemed obscene in your community is prohibited. Since public urination and defecation would be deemed obscene and likely illegal in most areas, this would make it against the TOS to perform these acts on cam.

That being said, I 100% agree with your confusion. From my personal perspective, I think that having section 5O in the TOS to serve as an insurance policy to cover CB from any backlash stemming from needing to remove a user for doing something obscene that wasn't specifically outlined in any other item in section 5 is a great idea, however for acts such as pee, poop, vomit, bukkake, and goatse these should be explicitly mentioned as to not leave any wiggle room for personal interpretation that something may or may not be obscene and therefore not allowed on the site.

The TL;DR? It's still not allowed anywhere on CB.

Thanks, much appreciated.
I think they need a "proper" section on these though, as there will be a lot of guys who will try manipulate the situation make the model believe it is fine to do. We all know they will.

Luckily myself and the model who was asked were very adamant on the fact it was against TOS, even though the guy said "it's not in print". He did accept the findings I saw and then dropped it, but we all know not everyone would be like that and they would continue on and on and end up getting a model in trouble.

 

[shapman88]

Thanks, much appreciated.
I think they need a "proper" section on these though, as there will be a lot of guys who will try manipulate the situation make the model believe it is fine to do. We all know they will.

Luckily myself and the model who was asked were very adamant on the fact it was against TOS, even though the guy said "it's not in print". He did accept the findings I saw and then dropped it, but we all know not everyone would be like that and they would continue on and on and end up getting a model in trouble.

You're completely, 100% correct. I would love to see this come back to the TOS to make it explicitly clear.

 

[Dan Epstein]

I can never listen to the "Scatman" song from the 90's ever again...

 

[Lelo1]

I can never listen to the "Scatman" song from the 90's ever again...

yah was just as disturbing in the 90s.
especially if you read into the whole

Ba-da-ba-da-ba-be bop bop bodda bope
Bop ba bodda bope
Be bop ba bodda bope
Bop ba bodda
Ba-da-ba-da-ba-be bop ba bodda bope
Bop ba bodda bope
Be bop ba bodda bope
Bop ba bodda bope

 

[Lintilla]

Just to add, I did find in 7a that it does state not to UPLOAD:

7. Content Posted on the Site.
Users and others are prohibited from uploading, sharing or in any way sharing or describing to anyone on or through the Site/Service any images or matters which, in our sole opinion, might be illegal or offensive, including, but not limited to, any content involving bestiality, urination or other bodily excretions, defamatory material or otherwise obscene material or any conduct that violates the prohibitions set forth under Chaturbate.com's Code of Conduct or any part of this Agreement



So they can stream ad do it but not upload a photo or video to sell/share of them doing it? I am so confused.

To stream you must upload data. But if you don't buy that for some reason, streaming is definitely "otherwise sharing", is it not?

 

[shapman88]

To stream you must upload data. But if you don't buy that for some reason, streaming is definitely "otherwise sharing", is it not?

You're right (and I missed that). But while it may state that in section 7, it doesn't make any mention of it in section 5, which is where 99% of people will look. So it's still excessively confusing and next to impossible to find a quick answer on the spot if needed.

 

[Dan Epstein]

I’m lost here. Do you mean to say that people are trying to stream pre-recorded shows, and then they get banned?

 

[AmberCutie]

You're right (and I missed that). But while it may state that in section 7, it doesn't make any mention of it in section 5, which is where 99% of people will look. So it's still excessively confusing and next to impossible to find a quick answer on the spot if needed.

Section 5 DOES mention obscenity, which should be known to include pee, poo, and fisting. Maybe the average person doesn't know that, though.

 

[Dan Epstein]

There's a limit to how much you can cover all scenarios and idiot proof something.
You wouldn't call an ant-farm in the frame bestiality, however, why would you put it there to begin with?

 

[shapman88]

Section 5 DOES mention obscenity, which should be known to include pee, poo, and fisting. Maybe the average person doesn't know that, though.

For people with a knowledge of what that means, that is more than enough. But not everyone is going to be as well versed in the obscenity laws as we are. A while back, CB had a single item in Section 5 that mentioned urination, defacation, vomiting, menstruation and other forms of bleeding, gaping either hole (goatse), bukkake, choking, and excessive bondage (meaning having all 4 limbs restrained at the same time).

While I agree that what they have now is enough for them to legally cover themselves, my opinion is that a few additions should be made to the language to specify the most requested things to allow for someone (either model or vierwer) to quickly search the TOS and not have any room to interpret "Is this allowed? I'm not sure if this is obscene or not."

Thats really the only point that i'm trying to make.

 

[shapman88]

There's a limit to how much you can cover all scenarios and idiot proof something.
You wouldn't call an ant-farm in the frame bestiality, however, why would you put it there to begin with?

You're right, even though i do believe there is a fine line between dumbing something down, and using language that allows someone to figure out the answer to their question on their own.

Some newer models that are camming on CB for the first time may not yet be aware of what can be considered obscene, and I've seen from experience that new models are constantly getting bombarded with things like "pee for me bb" or "you're on your period? spread it and show me" without any idea that what they're being asked for is against the rules. The assumption that if you are old enough to be broadcasting on a camsite, you should know the rights and wrongs of being there isn't always correct as so many young people will turn to camsites thinking it is easy money for them without reading the rules and thus will do things that are not allowed.

 

[Dan Epstein]

Shapman, I had a long post in mind, but I'll try to keep it brief. If I were to be a Chaturbate industry rep, I wouldn't ask myself why users are getting banned. The bigger you are, the more banned users you will have. A boutique camsite, will have less bans you know of, because you are less likely to know of them to begin with. I would strategically ask myself why does banning become the source of weekly drama and fiasco.

 

[shapman88]

Shapman, I had a long post in mind, but I'll try to keep it brief. If I were to be a Chaturbate industry rep, I wouldn't ask myself why users are getting banned. The bigger you are, the more banned users you will have. A boutique camsite, will have less bans you know of, because you are less likely to know of them to begin with. I would strategically ask myself why does banning become the source of weekly drama and fiasco.

True, but with CB being one of the major sites that people that are new to this industry will use in their first attempt at this sort of work, having documentation that as accurate and detailed as possible should not be an afterthought. Accurate documentation is not difficult to create, and occasional edits and improvements aside, do not require additional staff or money to be poured into the project.

I can understand how you could view things the way you do based on your experience, but from my point of view, a service is only as good as the documentation and infrastructure behind the scenes of said service that makes it as easy and painless as possible for someone new to begin using it and say "hey, I may not understand everything right now, but if I have questions, I know where i can look to get accurate information". In my eyes this doesn't just apply to camsites, but to any and all UI based infrastructure.

I totally understand that in some instances this is not a possible scenario, but to allow inaccurate documentation of what is and is not allowed on a site simply because of a change in verbiage in the TOS that can cause people that are working hard to earn a living using a service is inexcusable.

That all being said, I totally respect that you have different experience from what I do, and I am only arguing my case and viewpoints with you to hopefully allow me to learn more about what helps you to think the way you do, and for you to see what makes me think about things the way that I do.

 

[Dan Epstein]

Whatever you do, do not listen to John Scatman!

 

[Lintilla]

The ToS is a legal document. If they don't already have something like it, it might be better to create a page like MFC's Rules for Models to restate things in plain language. I'd assume they have good reasons for stating things how they do in the actual terms.

 

[shapman88]

The ToS is a legal document. If they don't already have something like it, it might be better to create a page like MFC's Rules for Models to restate things in plain language. I'd assume they have good reasons for stating things how they do in the actual terms.

As of right now, they've been using the TOS Section 5 as their rules page. But with their proven inability to update the TOS with any changes to the rules until days, weeks, or sometimes months later, I can't say with any kind of assurance that this would be a good thing.

 

[Lintilla]

As of right now, they've been using the TOS Section 5 as their rules page. But with their proven inability to update the TOS with any changes to the rules until days, weeks, or sometimes months later, I can't say with any kind of assurance that this would be a good thing.

I guess they should do nothing, then. What do you want :/

 

[shapman88]

I guess they should do nothing, then. What do you want :/

I'm simply arguing the point that they need to do a better job of making their TOS clearer for the specific things that CB support consistently states is against the rules. No need to snap at me for doing so, I've been nothing but respectful while presenting my argument.

 

[Lintilla]

I'm simply arguing the point that they need to do a better job of making their TOS clearer for the specific things that CB support consistently states is against the rules. No need to snap at me for doing so, I've been nothing but respectful while presenting my argument.

TOS are not really meant to be clear to the average reader. They're legal documents, in this case mainly to protect CB's own interests. If you can't interpret them on your own, it's a good idea to have a lawyer go over them. Realistically, that won't usually happen, but if you're making a significant amount of money somewhere, I'd suggest it.

If, in addition to their TOS, CB wants to make a more plain language document to explain their rules to models, I think that would be a good idea. But it would be silly to edit their actual TOS. Those need to be in legalese, that's just the way things are. A plain language version would probably come with a disclaimer that the TOS have priority. And I'm sure that the TOS will ALWAYS include the legalese version of "if we don't like you or what you're doing for any reason, we will cut you off immediately". That's just how being a contractor works. They are not required to provide anyone the use of their site, whatsoever.

 

[Dan Epstein]

A video tutorial, is always a good idea. We can use Shapman’s avatar in an animation as well, break youtube, and bring in some serious quality traffic

 

[Dan Epstein]

Shana Tova Shapman !

 

[shapman88]

Shana Tova Shapman !

Shana Tova to you as well.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

Just a thought...

Perhaps something such as the below might work?

"Any action deemed as obscene in your community is prohibited. This may include things such as urination, defication, vomiting, or similar actions."



I understand why they leave it vague, due to the various laws. But, placing a possible few items would be beneficial.

 

[shapman88]

Just a thought...

Perhaps something such as the below might work?

"Any action deemed as obscene in your community is prohibited. This may include things such as urination, defication, vomiting, or similar actions."



I understand why they leave it vague, due to the various laws. But, placing a possible few items would be beneficial.

Thats all that people are asking for.

 

[sorendaen]

CB Terms > Section 5. Illegal and Prohibited Conduct > Item h: 'Displays or reference to menstruation, vomit, feces, or urine are not permitted.'

 

[NotYou]

CB Terms > Section 5. Illegal and Prohibited Conduct > Item h: 'Displays or reference to menstruation, vomit, feces, or urine are not permitted.'

Was not there at the time of me posting this, so they must have updated it - which is great to see.

 

[Catscratch_and_Moose]

i couldn't get to the conclusion in this post rather it is allowed or not to perform urination action in public show.
assuming it is disallowed, my question would be, rather in a password protected room and/or a private show it would be allowed?
one could argue from legal prospective that a private show or password protected room is not considered "public" as one created an action to make it not accessible to the public,
hence making it private.
by the fact he/she placed a password , his action/intention is to make it private and no longer public (group show is a bit of a controversy rather it is Private or public by definition) .
in general by law, things that are disallowed in public, are allowed in private.
so does online follow the same rules as real life do?