The Confederate Flag

[gingerhobbit]

Those who are ignorant of history (as well as other disciplines) always assume that advancing time equates with advancing social and scientific progress. It doesn’t. But given that in 2015 in the United States public education and the fourth estate have both been annihilated, such ignorance is only to be expected.

These two statements are correct.

This statement is theoretically correct.

This conclusion however, is a non sequitur, for you’ve made no logical argument to justify it. You’re simply advancing your personal opinion as fact – which it isn’t. As eyeteach fruitlessly attempted to point out, the majority of southerners weren’t slave owners; therefore directly equating the Confederate flag and state’s rights with slavery and racism is ignorant at best and deliberately deceptive at worst.

I imagine most people know that blacks owned black slaves in Africa. But how many people know that the first slaveowner in America was a black man? How many people know that Jews provided the ships, the crews and the captains that transported the majority of slaves to the New World? How many people know that the majority of the slave owners in the South, and in particular the largest slave owners, were Jews?

But let’s not talk about inconvenient facts. Instead, let’s pretend that we can eliminate 350+ years of racial strife by throwing around a simplistic social meme and banning a few symbols. Let’s ignore the fact that the average Southerner during the Civil War was no different from the average American today, fighting and dying in wars that they never chose and never understood.

In fact, after we ban the Confederate flag, let’s ban the American flag too, because, hey, it’s just as racist and imperialistic too, isn’t it? I’m sure there must be someone in the United States who finds it offensive; and once it’s gone, this will be a perfect world, won’t it? No more racisim in the hearts of men, peace on earth and good will towards all.

False. Both Amazon and Ebay have been forbidden to sell the Confederate flag by the US Government.

One person’s right to “free speech” doesn’t give them the right to trespass onto another person’s private property to steal and desecrate, much less to dig up graves at public monuments.

Extraordinary renditions, Iraq and Afghanistan, Ruby Ridge… any of this ringing a bell?

You must be referring to the Obama’s administration’s demand that the anti-slavery clause in the Trans-Pacific Partnership Trade Agreement be removed, thereby allowing Malaysia (a major hub for human trafficking) to be a part of said agreement. Of course this was only a month before Obama attacked the Confederate flag as a symbol of slavery. Hypocrisy much? 2,000 years and what has changed? The masses are still pacified with bread and circuses while the ruling elites carry on business as usual.

You actually had a legitimate point or two, but that was lost in all the frothing-at-the-mouth blather and stupid falsehoods that you picked up from Fox News or some other extremist source. Sounds like you'd be right at home standing next to Cliven Bundy.

 

[gingerhobbit]

People need to calm the f*ck down. Seriously. All of this politically correct cr*p is going to turn the entire country into a bunch of imbeciles.

Looks like we've already got at least one.

 

[Teagan]

Oh great. Now were name calling. We all know how much that helps.

 

[Azhrarn]

Oh great. Now were name calling. We all know how much that helps.

Nothing says defeat like resorting to ad hominem attacks.

 

[gingerhobbit]

Nothing says defeat like resorting to ad hominem attacks.

Almost everything you've said so far reads as if you're going down a checklist of rallying cries for the extreme far-right militia movement: Ruby Ridge, the Jewish conspiracy, blacks started slavery, the American government is tyrannical. Whether intentional or not, you're parroting the same tired old shit that we heard from Timothy McVeigh 20 years ago.

If you honestly believe that aligning yourself with those political ideals puts you on the side of victory, you have lost all touch with reality. And there's no arguing with a person who has a delusional worldview. No matter what anyone says, it's just going to reinforce your confirmation bias. Talking about this with you any further is just pointless.

 

[Teagan]

The thing is regardless what anyone else says and whether you agree with it doesnt matter. You are responsible for how you respond and name calling (on both sides, not just picking on one person) is not called for. I dont care if someone is right wing/left wing/or a conspiracy theorist ...that's no reason not to behave yourself like a damn adult. Name calling is childish and so is personally attacking someone cause you dont like their point of view.

 

[gingerhobbit]

The thing is regardless what anyone else says and whether you agree with it doesnt matter. You are responsible for how you respond and name calling (on both sides, not just picking on one person) is not called for. I dont care if someone is right wing/left wing/or a conspiracy theorist ...that's no reason not to behave yourself like a damn adult. Name calling is childish and so is personally attacking someone cause you dont like their point of view.

If that's meant for me, sorry, but I have absolutely zero patience for far right-wing bullshit. I think it's dangerous and destructive.

Propaganda on the internet like this guy is espousing is exactly what helped lead Dylann Roof into that church, that led John Houser into that theater and that will continue to contribute to strife and death in the places where we live.

It's time to stop pretending that both sides have equal merit.

 

[Teagan]

I was clear it was not directed toward one person. My stance doesnt change though that just cause you dont agree does not give any person a right to be disrespectful and name call. Come on now. Debate facts not insults. You're grown men here and when you take to insults your point becomes muddled and less valid. And again you look like a child who cant use their words. You have your view, they have theirs, both of you as human fucking beings deserve not to be name called. Pick apart ideals all you want but theres no reason to go further than that.

 

[gingerhobbit]

I was clear it was not directed toward one person. My stance doesnt change though that just cause you dont agree does not give any person a right to be disrespectful and name call. Come on now. Debate facts not insults. You're grown men here and when you take to insults your point becomes muddled and less valid. And again you look like a child who cant use their words. You have your view, they have theirs, both of you as human fucking beings deserve not to be name called. Pick apart ideals all you want but theres no reason to go further than that.

I guess we'll have to disagree about this. I sure as hell don't feel like I crossed any lines or even remotely approached childishness.

 

[Teagan]

You literally just blamed 2 recent shootings done by mentally unstable people on someones elses political ideals. And accused them of losing touch with reality. With NO proof, evidence, or facts. Just your thoughts on it and that you dont agree with them. ...and you dont see how that could be looked at as childish? Really? Alright then.
Im not gonna debate this with you and the other side is not clean either but just fyi yes you as well are acting like a child. When someone doesnt agree with you and you mud sling and make pretty outrageous assumptions (about things you could not possibly know the reasons for mind you) that is spot on to how children act and act out. Its a tantrum. Yall might as well be calling each other a stupid face and making them try to eat dirt.

 

[AmberCutie]

I guess we'll have to disagree about this. I sure as hell don't feel like I crossed any lines or even remotely approached childishness.

Sorry, but you won't be allowed to disagree with it. Name-calling in a debate here at ACF is not cool. Both sides of the argument here need to check themselves.

 

[gingerhobbit]

@Teagan, extreme right-wing propaganda does contribute to things like these shootings. Read Dylann Roof's manifesto, where he expressly says he was influenced by what he read on the internet. Like I said, I think the time has long since passed for politely debating people with these kinds of views.

@AmberCutie, sorry but yeah, I disagree and will continue to. I'm going to speak my mind when someone is spreading extremist propaganda, being misogynistic, or shitting on poor people, black people or anyone else who gets shit on all the time.

I enjoy hanging out on your forum, but if you don't want me to post here because of that, well, it's your party and you get to decide who's invited and who isn't.

 

[Teagan]

Jesus Christ what dont you get here? No one said dont speak your mind but have some respect when you speak as you would like done to you. Easy peasy. Its not hard to not name call someone. Its just not. Name calling is not the same as speaking your mind.

And secondly you have no clue all of what someone read on the internet and how that correlated to political views and how mentally fucked up in the head someone is. He is a 21 year old with obvious problems and people who are not all there will always find what they wanna find to excuse their behavior. That's just a fact and happened before the internet and happens without politics and has since the dawn of time. Crazy people are just crazy. Dont act like you know someones motives when you dont and try to pass it off as fact to back yourself up. You also brought up the other recent shooting which very little info has been released/known and tried to correlate that as well with NO evidence of such. That's ridiculous to go around making up your own claims and assumptions especially when there is plenty of real and actual facts to be used.

Now I agree this flag has no place in government buildings just like religious stuff has no place as well. However when someones arguments for such is just name calling and making stuff up I can not get behind that shit. I like facts, not made up shit in peoples minds. So debate away however be a big boy and use actual truths.

 

[AmberCutie]

sorry but yeah, I disagree and will continue to. I'm going to speak my mind when someone is spreading extremist propaganda, being misogynistic, or shitting on poor people, black people or anyone else who gets shit on all the time.

I enjoy hanging out on your forum, but if you don't want me to post here because of that, well, it's your party and you get to decide who's invited and who isn't.

You're allowed to disagree with people about the discussion, ABSOLUTELY, but you may not resort to name-calling. (That's what I said you cannot disagree about, when Teagan said name-calling should not be involved.) That's just childish and has no place in a debate.

Debates are allowed and encouraged here, fights are not. The difference between debates and fights is flaming and name-calling.

 

[gingerhobbit]

Jesus Christ what dont you get here? No one said dont speak your mind but have some respect when you speak as you would like done to you. Easy peasy. Its not hard to not name call someone. Its just not. Name calling is not the same as speaking your mind.

And secondly you have no clue all of what someone read on the internet and how that correlated to political views and how mentally fucked up in the head someone is. He is a 21 year old with obvious problems and people who are not all there will always find what they wanna find to excuse their behavior. That's just a fact and happened before the internet and happens without politics and has since the dawn of time. Crazy people are just crazy. Dont act like you know someones motives when you dont and try to pass it off as fact to back yourself up. You also brought up the other recent shooting which very little info has been released/known and tried to correlate that as well with NO evidence of such. That's ridiculous to go around making up your own claims and assumptions especially when there is plenty of real and actual facts to be used.

Now I agree this flag has no place in government buildings just like religious stuff has no place as well. However when someones arguments for such is just name calling and making stuff up I can not get behind that shit. I like facts, not made up shit in peoples minds. So debate away however be a big boy and use actual truths.

@Teagan, Dylann Roof said in his own words that he was influenced by what he read online. That's what makes this extreme far-right crap so dangerous...because it helps inflame crazy people. Take a look at the death toll from these extremist ideals you want me to politely debate. I think it's naive to argue that the environment created by Fox News, right-wing websites and right-wing propaganda on random message boards, like this one, does not contribute to the violence.

@AmberCutie, sure I won't call anyone names. I didn't really think I had, aside from insinuating that Azhraran might be one of the imbecile's to which he was referring, but I'll be sure to refrain from name-calling. I just wish you guys were as concerned about the destructive propaganda that he is perpetuating here as you are about the tone of the discussion.

Conservative BS is one thing, yeah, we can more-or-less politely argue that stuff. But Ruby Ridge, Jewish conspiracies, minimizing slavery, myths about US government tyranny (banning Amazon from selling Confederate flags, ffs), those are all documented talking points for right-wing extremists. And it's dangerous.

Reasonable people have a responsibility to call that shit out wherever they see it.

ETA: John Houser, Louisiana theater shooter, seems to have left his own internet tracks. Surprise, surprise, it'all extremist BS.

 

[Teagan]

 

[AmberCutie]

I just wish you guys were as concerned about the destructive propaganda that he is perpetuating here as you are about the tone of the discussion.

It is not my job to be concerned about that, I don't/won't go and research topics in order to be able to sort out what is "propaganda" and what is mere silly opinion and what is faulty facts. And I don't mind the tone, but referring to someone as an imbecile is name-calling with no constructive point within the debate and only used to put down the other poster(s), and my job as the Admin is to remind people that isn't allowed.

Given the title of this thread and the nature of the topic, it's pretty obvious that it's going to get some emotional responses, but I expect people to behave appropriately even in the heat of the moment. There is a big difference between telling someone "I disagree with that, I think it's bullshit" (disagreeing with heated language and tone) and "You're an imbecile for having that opinion" (direct name-calling).

While we're on the topic: while not directly name-calling, saying "go to fucking hell" would also be considered inappropriate.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Nor did I say that “some” of the people in the slave trade were Jews. I said the majority were Jews; just as the majority of the white slave trade today is in the hands of Israel.

Interesting. I take it very personally when "the Jews" start getting dragged into this. And no, I'm not Jewish .

Can you offer your source for these for these allegations?

 

[CherryChu]

Religion and politics eh

 

[dilligaf0]

My opinion ( and mine alone ) is the Confederate flag should not be flying over Government buildings any more than a Nazi flag should.
The Government is not banning that flag other than on Government buildings.
Ebay, etc. made business related choices not to sell those items.
You have the right to fly ANY flag you want to at your home, you DO NOT have the right to try to force me to fly it at my home.

 

[dilligaf0]

Late edit regarding my post above. The "you" I used is a generic you, not a you aimed at any one specific person.

 

[Azhrarn]

Interesting. I take it very personally when "the Jews" start getting dragged into this. And no, I'm not Jewish .

Can you offer your source for these for these allegations?

I’ve already indirectly referred to that elsewhere. In order to protect my privacy, I can’t go into too many details, but not long ago I happened to attend a few meetings on illegal immigration and heard some really odd things from a member of the Dept of Health & Human Services. Things that really did not add up. Basically there’s this term used to refer to the number of illegal immigrants who start out for the United States versus the number of illegal immigrants who actually arrive. It’s called the “filter rate.” Well, the filter rate for women and young girls is extremely low, and this is one of the hidden scandals connected to all of the illegal immigration from Mexico and Central America. So I decided to try to find out what’s happening to all those women, and the answer I came to is that those who aren’t being raped and killed en route wind up being forced into sex slavery, either here in the United States or elsewhere. And in the process of researching modern-day sex slavery that lead me to white slavery which in turn lead to Israel, which then lead me back to black slavery and the Civil War. By all rights, Israel should be designated as a Tier-3 nation with regards to white slavery. The only reason it’s not is because it wields enormous financial and political power, as well as the fact that the second anyone criticizes Israel or any facet of Zionism they get accused of being… well… just read gingerhobbit’s posts.

And as long as we’re on the subject of hidden scandals, people need to start researching the link between mass shootings and anti-depressant drugs. I have never heard of a single mass shooting where the perpetrators weren’t on some type of psychiatric drug, which is extremely worrisome given that the pharmaceutical industry seems hell-bent on getting every single American on some type of drug, even to the point of falsifying clinical diagnoses. There have been reports in the European media that ADHD for example, is largely a fictitious disease per Leon Eisenberg, the man who first developed the diagnostic criteria for it. As proof of this, witness the fact that in the United States almost 10% of all children are now diagnosed with ADHD, while in France the percentage is less than one half of one percent. People need to start reading the side effects caused by these psychiatric drugs and taking them seriously.

One final comment, unlike others on this forum, I have absolutely no interest in restricting speech in any way. Unlike others, I do have respect for differences of opinion, I do have respect for the First Amendment, and I do have respect for the Bill of Rights. What I do not have respect for however, are those who lower their discourse to the level of tweets and hashtags, who allow their social and political activities to be manipulated by social media, and whose ignorance of history and politics leads them to ascribe benign motives to government actions which are anything but. To give just one example, gingerhobbit has already admitted that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Left unsaid however, is the fact that numerous American political leaders deliberately lied about Iraq’s involvement in order to justify the invasion of that country, leading to war crimes charges being filed against the Bush administration by human rights groups in Germany, Switzerland and elsewhere.

With the exception of not doing enough fact checking on my Amazon/Ebay comment, I will stand by everything I’ve written in this thread. However, even “mistakes” may serve their purposes, and I think it’s become rather clear that those who believe as gingerhobbit do would be more than happy to not only ban symbols wholesale, but free speech as well, because there’s no contradiction at all in arguing that in order to protect our rights we have to surrender them.

Finally, I invite anyone who disagrees with anything I’ve posted to do their own research, preferably with books, those fast-disappearing relics of a bygone age.

 

[Sevrin]

The whole thing about "the South" going to war makes sense because they felt "their rights" was being infringed upon only works if you don't consider the black slaves were people. The fact that they had no franchise meant that their voices were not heard in the debate as to whether the legitimacy of their enslavement was something worth going to war over.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I’ve already indirectly referred to that elsewhere. In order to protect my privacy, I can’t go ...

I read no further. You cannot back up these allegations. You can only double down when questioned about them, offering up more allegations.

 

[Azhrarn]

The whole thing about "the South" going to war makes sense because they felt "their rights" was being infringed upon only works if you don't consider the black slaves were people. The fact that they had no franchise meant that their voices were not heard in the debate as to whether the legitimacy of their enslavement was something worth going to war over.

I can answer this on at least two levels.

First question, who is “they”? If by “they" you mean the ordinary White southerner, do you really believe that “they” - regardless of their beliefs - had any voice in the debate as to whether to go to war or not? How much voice does the average citizen of today - black or white - have in decisions of war? Supposedly the government exists to serve the citizens, but when wars are declared and drafts are issued, demonstrators and conscientious objectors are sent to prison.

Something to bear in mind is that when the United States was founded, it wasn’t just blacks who couldn’t vote, but poor whites either. Suffrage was restricted to men of property, the ruling elite, and to men of that class, there was little if any difference between a black man and a poor white. Of course women couldn’t vote either, whether poor or propertied; but the issue which I will pose is whether the ruling elite of today sees any difference between whites who lack property and blacks.

Second, assuming by some miracle the human race doesn’t destroy itself, how do you suppose our descendants will view us? Some of us I’m sure are self-righteously secure in our smug belief that we are morally superior because we aren’t racist. But will later generations condemn us because we slaughtered and ate animals for food? Will we someday be considered barbarians because we thoughtlessly and criminally polluted our planet, without ever once questioning whether it too might not be a living and conscious life form?

Will our descendants choose to tear down statues, burn flags, ban works of art because we failed to meet the moral standards of a later and different time? Or will they look back upon us in humility and try to understand that we after all were not so different from themselves?

This politically correct movement has been a blight upon public discourse since the day it began, and today it has reached such extreme lengths that I fear we are not that far from the thought crime and the constant rewriting of history which is described in George Orwell’s 1984.

 

[Azhrarn]

I read no further. You cannot back up these allegations. You can only double down when questioned about them, offering up more allegations.

For those wishing to learn about Jewish involvement in the colonial slave trade, one has merely to consult dozens of Jewish scholarly works, written by Jewish academics for Jewish audiences.

For those too lazy to do their own research, but who instead choose to believe whatever is told to them, whatever confirms to their already existing beliefs, I can only say, "Here's a tomato. Aim well."

 

[sweetiebatman]

I'm not entirely sure it is much of a leap to say that people are morally superior because the are not racist. Racism is bad.

I'm English, and forgive me if i'm being in any way charmingly naive in a Hugh Grant fashion but isnt the crux of the argument about the flag being flown on the State Capitol building. I have no argument with people wanting to fly that flag by themselves, do what you want and let people judge you as they will but to fly that flag, with all its connotations on a federal government building seems a bit odd to me

 

[Azhrarn]

I'm not entirely sure it is much of a leap to say that people are morally superior because the are not racist. Racism is bad.

I'm English, and forgive me if i'm being in any way charmingly naive in a Hugh Grant fashion but isnt the crux of the argument about the flag being flown on the State Capitol building. I have no argument with people wanting to fly that flag by themselves, do what you want and let people judge you as they will but to fly that flag, with all its connotations on a federal government building seems a bit odd to me

Choose who you want to believe. One side argues that the flags were put up to protest the civil rights movement. The other side argues that the flags were put up to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the civil war.

My attitude, if it isn't readily apparent, is that symbols such as flags are multifaceted, with various and multiple meanings which only deepen and evolve over time. And when I see that someone like Obama, who is intentionally supporting slavery in the 21st century for profit, is so anxious to tear this symbol down, that only strengthens my resolve that it needs to be protected.

 

[gingerhobbit]

Just for shits and giggles, I tried to look up some of this Israeli white slavery bullshit.

I was not at all surprised when the topic turned out to be a favorite of far-right fringe websites like David Duke's (Duke is a well-known former KKK leader from Lousiana) and Stormfront, a message board for neo-Nazis. One of the first search results went to a website with a link to the "Jewish problem" at the top of its first page.

Yes, Israel does have to deal with human trafficking, just like almost every developed country in the world. And yes, 15 years ago, the country was criticized for not doing enough to stop the trafficking of women from Eastern Europe for prostitution.

But since then, the Israeli government has responded by tightening its border and increasing the prosecutions of those involved in "white slavery."

The Global Slavery Index ranks Israel no. 142 out of 167 countries (with 1 being the most slaves and 167 being the least). The estimated portion of the nation's population that was enslaved: 0.081 percent. By the way, the US was no. 145 on that list, only slightly better than Israel.

Even the US State Department's most recent Trafficking in Persons Report from July 2015 puts Israel in Tier 1 (out of three tiers, with three being the worst) and acknowledges that Israel is working hard to curb trafficking. The only complaint: that the courts aren't sentencing harshly enough.

So the upshot is that Israel was slow to deal with the problem 15 years ago, but is taking care of business now. And yet, here we have current propaganda trying to paint "Zionists" as white slavers run rampant.

(By the way, I'm not Jewish, and I'm actually fairly critical of Israel for its treatment of Palestinians.)

On the subject of free speech, @Azhrarn, I completely support a person's right to say whatever he or she wants. Which means that when someone is spouting dangerous misinformation, I also fully support the right of other people to call "bullshit."

The people who say destructive things, then crow about their First Amendment rights always seem to forget that a strong response to your words is also free speech. I was a journalist for 11 years; the right to free speech is very important to me. But I think that what you're doing is the online equivalent of yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater.

 

[JoleneBrody]

... Oooooook