Smart people sometimes do stupid things

[camstory]

WOW, a lot here to get to, and no time now, getting ready for sale tomorrow. I'll be back tonight. And yes this has taken a side road from the OP, but that is not bad since the path it has taken is much more relevant IMhO then what the aim of the OP might appear to be.

 

[Nordling]

I see no reason to "respect an office." It's a cliché and a dumb idea. Should we also respect the President's left shoe? The only person who can bring dishonor to the "office of the President" is....

The President.

I wasn't offended by Kathy Griffin's bloody effigy because it was a representation of the President; I just find such images disgusting, no matter who or what they represent. On the other hand, I don't think one dumb idea should ruin a comic's career. She's apologized. End of story.

 

[camstory]

I see no reason to "respect an office." It's a cliché and a dumb idea. Should we also respect the President's left shoe? The only person who can bring dishonor to the "office of the President" is....

The President.

I wasn't offended by Kathy Griffin's bloody effigy because it was a representation of the President; I just find such images disgusting, no matter who or what they represent. On the other hand, I don't think one dumb idea should ruin a comic's career. She's apologized. End of story.

I gave this an agree, but it is only the last part that I agree with. I will start by saying that in this case, this president, that I think there is a very good case for putting aside any respect.Trump has no regard for respect. He has no respect for the american ppl or anyone as far as i can see. The last president I truly liked was Jimmy Carter. Everyone to hold that office since has more or less IMO not shown the respect wholly deserved by the ppl, all the ppl, for whom they have served. Though I have never felt, as I do now that they did not deserve to be given a certain amount of respect. And, I guess that is because I felt a respect for the office. Also I felt like I could reserve a bit of respect because as people they still conducted themselves in a respectful manor regardless of how disrespectful some of their polices were. Something I don't think Trump is capable of.

WE should respect the office because of the history of honorable men who have ppled it, and because we expect who ever holds that office to be an outstanding and honorable person. If that is what you expect then you must address that place/office from a place of respect

Respect is not a submissive posture. I would argue respect is of much greater value when it is not submissive, when it is respectful disagreement. Respect is what makes great diplomats, great. Respect has stopped the coming of wars, and the lack of respect has brought them fourth. Respect is why you do not torture your enemy. Respect is why you do not reverse treaties that are in the best interest of the vast majority of the ppl you have been granted the honer of severing. Respect is what allows civil discourse, when otherwise there would be violent upheaval. Respect is not a dumb idea. Approaching an office of someone who should be of high integrity, and of great power, is not a dumb idea. And as much as I have no respect for Trump and know that showing him any respect in light of his complete disrespect, is a very hard thing to do, I am not sure it is a dumb idea. In fact I suggest this side of armed revolution, not showing respect for the office of president of the U.S. even when you don't respect the person holding it, is the dumb idea.

That said, I hate this motherfucker so much, if I had to chose between respecting him and joining in a revolution...

 

[Deleted member 37064]

WE should respect the office because of the history of honorable men who have ppled it, and because we expect who ever holds that office to be an outstanding and honorable person. If that is what you expect then you must address that place/office from a place of respect

Respect is not a submissive posture. I would argue respect is of much greater value when it is not submissive, when it is respectful disagreement. Respect is what makes great diplomats, great. Respect has stopped the coming of wars, and the lack of respect has brought them fourth. Respect is why you do not torture your enemy. Respect is why you do not reverse treaties that are in the best interest of the vast majority of the ppl you have been granted the honer of severing. Respect is what allows civil discourse, when otherwise there would be violent upheaval. Respect is not a dumb idea. Approaching an office of someone who should be of high integrity, and of great power, is not a dumb idea. And as much as I have no respect for Trump and know that showing him any respect in light of his complete disrespect, is a very hard thing to do, I am not sure it is a dumb idea. In fact I suggest this side of armed revolution, not showing respect for the office of president of the U.S. even when you don't respect the person holding it, is the dumb idea.

Well said, thank you. Much of what I was getting at in regards to respect. Much better stated than I have.

Also, kind of touching on one item above.. Let me give a real-world example of showing someone respect when they really didn't deserve it:

You find yourself in a situation where tensions are high. Shouting, screaming, anger, verbaly assaulting people, clenched fists, etc. primarily from one side. Though, others are starting to get agitated and it starts to escalate the situation further. Someone steps in, calmly takes the lead and begins talking to the agitated person. Asking them what's wrong, what they feel can be done to hep alleviate the situation. As this person is doing so, the other starts to calm down a little which deescalates the scene and it returns to normal. Or, at least as close to a calmer setting so that progress is made.
The person who took the lead, and calmly started working with that person showed respect and concern for the person's well being, as well as the general welfare of all involved. Had they of come in hot under the collar, shouting threats, obscenities, etc the situation would have severely escalated. One of the biggest issues I see today is that so many allow themselves to be susceptible to emotions while being less rational. Which, tends to escalate things quickly, and causes so many problems such as we're seeing now with polar opposites and intolerance.

 

[Bocefish]

People don't care about politics, they just want something to be mad about, a devil to target.

With all due respect, please speak only for yourself when you make statements like that.

For the most part, I agree... with the exceptions of the military, higher taxes, job-killing legislation without providing re-training, blah, blah, blah.

The GOP hater that opened fire on unarmed republicans playing softball for charity earlier this morning apparently cared about politics way too much.

Hopefully, there will be a proverbial "silver lining" from his nut-job actions and politicians will finally wake the fuck up to the realization they represent all the people instead of special interests and learn how to compromise when partisan politics are stifled.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

Hopefully, there will be a proverbial "silver lining" from his nut-job actions and politicians will finally wake the fuck up to the realization they represent all the people instead of special interests and learn how to compromise when partisan politics are stifled.

Won't happen. Look at 9/11. The outpouring of the majority of people supporting those whom lost their lives in the towers, Pentagon and planes. The nation had come together for only a very brief period of time before it split even harder into partisan politics with the Republicans/Conservatives being segregated more by Tea Party, etc. Now, it will be interesting to see the fallout from the Democratic debacle and publicly showing of how corrupt they are too.

Nothing changes, everything stays the same...

 

[JoleneBrody]

With all due respect, please speak only for yourself when you make statements like that.

For the most part, I agree... with the exceptions of the military, higher taxes, job-killing legislation without providing re-training, blah, blah, blah.

The GOP hater that opened fire on unarmed republicans playing softball for charity earlier this morning apparently cared about politics way too much.

Hopefully, there will be a proverbial "silver lining" from his nut-job actions and politicians will finally wake the fuck up to the realization they represent all the people instead of special interests and learn how to compromise when partisan politics are stifled.

I'm not speaking about myself either. it's a general statement in relation to the topic of this thread that I'm sure you can easily understand.

I agree with the rest of what you said though, just didn't think it really needed to be a reply to my post over-analyzing what I said. We Americans understand generalizations. Obviously some people do care greatly, but my post was about about the general public at large.

 

[dilligaf0]

I'm not speaking about myself either. it's a general statement in relation to the topic of this thread that I'm sure you can easily understand.

I agree with the rest of what you said though, just didn't think it really needed to be a reply to my post over-analyzing what I said. We Americans understand generalizations. Obviously some people do care greatly, but my post was about about the general public at large.

There were at least two other mass shootings yesterday (that did involve deaths) that were ignored by media because of the nut in Virginia.
Too many people believe violence is an answer to disputes.
It's not....we need to grow up.
Before many have a shit-fit, this has been a problem for more than a decade. No one party or individual is to blame directly, it's just a giant clusterfuck.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

There were at least two other mass shootings yesterday (that did involve deaths) that were ignored by media because of the nut in Virginia.
Too many people believe violence is an answer to disputes.
It's not....we need to grow up.
Before many have a shit-fit, this has been a problem for more than a decade. No one party or individual is to blame directly, it's just a giant clusterfuck.

Too many people believe the simple answer is to remove the guns. What about stabbings? Shall we remove all knives? What about beatings with baseball bats? What about people whom fight each other with fists? Maybe we should just get rid of all the cars too...

It isn't an easy fix, as you remove a weapon and they'll find another. Look at the bridge attack in London where they used hammers. Or, all the stabbings in China, or the St. Cloud mall in Minnesota. What about domestic violence? Rarely does that involve firearms. Yet, is a major problem.

I agree though, that this isn't the cause/fault of one party. This has been going on for centuries when you look at violence in general.

 

[Shutterbuck]

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Too many people believe the simple answer is to remove the guns. What about stabbings? Shall we remove all knives? What about beatings with baseball bats? What about people whom fight each other with fists? Maybe we should just get rid of all the cars too...

I would like to see the 2nd amendment shown the same treatment as the 4th. If we need a War on Drugs to protect us, I say it is time we stop slow-walking towards a War on Guns. Let's just set aside our hypocrisy and do it already. Enough of these feeble bureaucratic fumblings by a limp wristed left. Pass the laws overnight, use the gun registry to decide whose doors to start kicking in.

Fill the prisons with those who dare to possess, buy, or sell a gun without government consent.

 

[dilligaf0]

Too many people believe the simple answer is to remove the guns. What about stabbings? Shall we remove all knives? What about beatings with baseball bats? What about people whom fight each other with fists? Maybe we should just get rid of all the cars too...

It isn't an easy fix, as you remove a weapon and they'll find another. Look at the bridge attack in London where they used hammers. Or, all the stabbings in China, or the St. Cloud mall in Minnesota. What about domestic violence? Rarely does that involve firearms. Yet, is a major problem.

I agree though, that this isn't the cause/fault of one party. This has been going on for centuries when you look at violence in general.

Maybe our society should explore trying to help those with mental health issues.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Maybe our society should explore trying to help those with mental health issues.

Problem is, violence is completely normal human behavior. Helping (whatever that means) the mentally ill wouldn't make much of a dent from the looks of it.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...caught-on-tape-criticizing-rep-steve-scalise/

“I’ve been in politics and community organizations for the past 20 years,” [Nebraska Democratic Party Chair Jane Kleeb] said. “I’ve seen political rhetoric get heated, especially during the George W. Bush times, but we have reached a completely different level in our country now, and it is terrifying, and it is scary, and it just has to end.”

Gasp!




http://www.heraldextra.com/entertai...cle_6101a33d-ec4d-502d-988c-09d5c7403217.html

“The joke is no laughing matter,” Kellyanne Conway, counselor to the president, told The Washington Post in a phone interview. “These things are real.”

Heaven help us!

 

[Deleted member 37064]

Problem is, violence is completely normal human behavior. Helping (whatever that means) the mentally ill wouldn't make much of a dent from the looks of it.

Exactly, much of the gun violence isn't due to mental issues. exclusively. Violence goes back to the earliest times of man, whether you believe in evolution or creationism. It's heavily embedded in culture.

As I eluded to in my previous post, remove the guns and they'll find a way to kill/maime/injure with other weapons such as knives, baseball bats, hammers, etc. Look at the countries, and US cities, which have the strictest gun laws.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Exactly, much of the gun violence isn't due to mental issues. exclusively. Violence goes back to the earliest times of man, whether you believe in evolution or creationism. It's heavily embedded in culture.

As I eluded to in my previous post, remove the guns and they'll find a way to kill/maime/injure with other weapons such as knives, baseball bats, hammers, etc. Look at the countries, and US cities, which have the strictest gun laws.

To be honest, I am a former "2nd amendmenter" and NRA supporter. Sort of feel honor bound to argue against that position now.

Part of the reason for that is the blatant hypocrisy from the US government, specifically with regards to the Drug War.

But what really turned me against that view was listening to the bullshit out of the 2nd/NRA crowd after Sandy Hook.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

To be honest, I am a former "2nd amendmenter" and NRA supporter. Sort of feel honor bound to argue against that position now.

Part of the reason for that is the blatant hypocrisy from the US government, specifically with regards to the Drug War.

But what really turned me against that view was listening to the bullshit out of the 2nd/NRA crowd after Sandy Hook.

Personally, I don't like the NRA for a number of different reasons. Same goes with many different non-profits, across many sectors. But, what you talk about is common in many different non-profit organizatons as they are highly political, and use extremism to further their own agenda. And, there's many areas the Gov't is full of hypocracy much worse than what it does with drugs.

For the record, I'm one whom believes that we have far too many laws on the books and many should be outright removed as most were already covered by more generic laws. I also believe that Gov't should be very minimal, not this bloated behemoth it is. I could go on. But, will stop for brevity.

My previous posts were honest in content, without an agenda, by trying to reference recent examples of non-gun violence such as knife attacks in China, hammer attacks in London, etc.

I am not attempting to say that mental health isn't a cause for a number of incidents, as I believe there are many relations which need to be figured out. But, just like you stated, violence has been a part of human life since the beginning and can be from things such as hate, anger, jealousy, etc. Which, may not be specific to mental health.

 

[Bocefish]

Problem is, violence is completely normal human behavior. Helping (whatever that means) the mentally ill wouldn't make much of a dent from the looks of it.

JoleneBrody said: ↑
People don't care about politics, they just want something to be mad about, a devil to target.

t's a general statement in relation to the topic of this thread that I'm sure you can easily understand.

not speaking about myself either. it's a general statement in relation to the topic of this thread

So... violence is completely normal, helping the mentally ill doesn't really matter and the only people that care about politics just want something to bitch about.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

So... violence is completely normal, helping the mentally ill doesn't really matter...

Violence is encouraged. A virtue. Normal as any other human behavior.

How are you going to a) define the mentally ill, and b) what you consider helping them.

 

[Bocefish]

Violence is encouraged. A virtue. Normal as any other human behavior.

Where have you learned violence is normal and encouraged?

How are you going to a) define the mentally ill, and b) what you consider helping them.

Can you define the mentally ill or have ideas how to help them?

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Where have you learned violence is normal and encouraged?

Oh gee, idk. All of recorded history maybe? The USA has certainly made no break with that trait.

Can you define the mentally ill or have ideas how to help them?

I can go a hell of a lot further than this...

/s helping the mentally ill doesn't really matter... ~ Bocefish

 

[Bocefish]

Oh gee, idk. All of recorded history maybe? The USA has certainly made no break with that trait.

I can go a hell of a lot further than this...

So can I, your point is what?

You're part of the solution or part of the problem

 

[justjoinedtopost]

So can I, your point is what?

My point is, if you can, why don't you go ahead and do it?

You're part of the solution or part of the problem

I think that is a gross simplification.

You can be part of the problem, part of the solution, collateral damage, amused spectator, etc...

If you can find the time in between dropping smugassed trollish one-liners (without ever bothering to say much of anything at all), you should go read this interesting article.
http://canadafreepress.com/article/there-aint-no-more-middle-ground

 

[JoleneBrody]

JoleneBrody said: ↑
People don't care about politics, they just want something to be mad about, a devil to target.



So... violence is completely normal, helping the mentally ill doesn't really matter and the only people that care about politics just want something to bitch about.

You and I are not even remotely having the same conversation, so I'll leave you to it.

 

[Bocefish]

If you can find the time in between dropping smugassed trollish one-liners (without ever bothering to say much of anything at all), you should go read this interesting article.

So your solution is that I should read some so-called interesting article and all will be what??

 

[justjoinedtopost]

So your solution is that I should read some so-called interesting article and all will be what??

Solution to what problem?

 

[opphs]

The triumph of spectacle. Cult of the self.

Spoiler

I don't care about Imus or Griffin. Their jokes didn't amuse me, nor did they anger me.

This is what I know; the Al Sharpton crowd howling after the Imus incident, and the Hannity crew bemoaning Griffin's wtf-er, they both want the same thing.


I think that is utterly daft.

You are misconstruing things. This was a ridiculous photoshoot and a teacher acting dumb. These were not violent acts; only a fool, or someone with ulterior motives would label them as such.

Whether they represent a credible threat or not, I wouldn't be surprised to hear the Secret Service has already inquired. Who knows.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/08/in_the_line_of_ire.html



You want to show respect for the office of president, go right ahead. Demand it of others? Sounds like you want some blasphemy laws to me.

Chris Hedges is a great writer in the sense that he's one of the few brave enough to dig for the deeper truths beyond all the bullshit. He's also a terrible writer in the sense that I wish he knew how to craft a good sentence. For that reason I prefer authors who have covered similar ground like Thomas Frank and Christopher Lasch. But yeah, hard endorse on the idea of the cult of the self.