SlutWalk

[Morefunner]

I found this kinda amusing.

you can read more here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42927752/ns ... slutwalks/

 

[Teagz]

I dig it. That cop is a real doucher.

 

[Jupiter551]

That cop should have been fired, an attitude like that from the general public is ignorance. From a police officer it's an indication he may not be able to do his job properly.

 

[LadyLuna]

The police officer made his comments in January to a group of York University students at a safety forum.

Context is everything.

While I don't agree with the way he worded it, the point he was trying to make is NOT that it's okay for someone to rape you if you dress provocatively, but simply that some people are not in control of themselves, and if you dress provocatively, you might set them off.

He did NOT say "if you dress provocatively, you will be raped". He said "women should avoid dressing like "sluts" to avoid being raped or victimized", or something close to that. Actually, the article does NOT quote him, therefore, we don't know exactly how he worded it.

I took a safety course when I was in the all-women's college. We were told "Just because you dress provocatively does not give them the right to rape you. Still, common sense says that if you don't want it, don't advertise that you do."

 

[Teagz]

Plenty of women or even men that don't dress as 'sluts' get raped. As well as kids.
A sick fuck is a sick fuck at the end of the day and he's going to rape someone no matter how they're dressed.
The officer was way out of line and it was terrible of him to say such a thing.

 

[Lydia_Deetz]

Plenty of women or even men that don't dress as 'sluts' get raped. As well as kids.
A sick fuck is a sick fuck at the end of the day and he's going to rape someone no matter how they're dressed.
The officer was way out of line and it was terrible of him to say such a thing.

This^^^ There is no such thing as asking for it.

 

[Jupiter551]

Yeah, well as I read in another article - there's no evidence to support women being dressed provocatively get raped more or less than women who don't. Rapists don't decide to rape someone based on whether they have on a mini-skirt or not.

It's just an out of date, stupid comment made by someone whose JOB it is to know better.

It's cops like that who make women feel "partly to blame" when they come forward and say they've been raped...or their attitudes make women not want to come forward at all.

 

[harry]

Context is everything...

Absolutely, context in dress as in language. The officer failed to recognise his audience and the likely response his provocative language.

CBC News Posted: Apr 3, 2011
In January, Toronto Police Const. Michael Sanguinetti told a personal security class at York University that "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized."

Sanguinetti apologized for his comments, but his apology failed to satisfy walk organizer Sonya Barnett.

"It was evident that if you're going to have a representative of the police force come out [and say that] then that kind of idea must be still running rampant within the force itself and that retraining really needs to happen to change that mentality," she said.

A statement on the event's website says: "Toronto Police have perpetuated the myth and stereotype of the slut, and in doing so have failed us."

Meanwhile, LAPD advise tourists "Remember that any expensive items left in plain view [in your car] invite theft."

I don't know if tourists take that as LAPD saying they're 'asking for it' if their possessions are stolen, but that would be one literal interpretation of the advice.

LAPD seem to suggest those who want to avoid becoming victims consider the wisdom of their actions in context of the time, the place, the people around, and how they may draw the attention of an offender, especially opportunist ones.

That would be the implication I'd take from it.

In this case the struggle seems to be more about the control of language, within the police and general discourse, rather than increasing personal safety in practice.

 

[LilyVonShtupp]

Rape is an issue of control, not an issue of "i'm so horny I can't stand it." This is something a cop should be aware of. Some rapists will actually pick out the more demure girls because they like taking what is not offered.

That being said, there are other issues to consider with this sort of logic.

Where do you draw the line between what is or is not slutty? It is a subjective term. It is generally accepted that seeing whatever is most often not seen is provocative but in this day and age what body parts are not seen day in and day out by everyone?

If we start saying that girls should not dress slutty or they will invite rapists then we'll have to start dressing with our skirts covering our ankles and our bodices buttoned up to the chin again because we will never be able to define slutty. This is why we have consent. There is nothing subjective about consent. You either said yes or no. You either consent or you don't.

If I am a tourist and someone steels my rental car because I forgot to lock it that thief is still in the wrong because I did not hand him the keys and say "steel this car".

If I am a woman and I am dressed for a night out and someone rapes me they are in the wrong because I did not lie down, spread my legs, and say "please fuck me."

We all know the difference between right and wrong and the majority of us will not steel that car just because it is unlocked or attack that woman just because she is sexy. You know that without consent it is wrong to take what is not yours.

I see no reason that we should accept anything less from the thieves and the rapists.

 

[Just_mark__]

I can see both sides and on so, so many levels I loved the slutwalks.

Women have the right (in Canada, US and UK at least) to dress however they want to and should be able to without fear of being raped.

The caveat to that there's some fucked up people out there ladies, watch your back.

My lodgers little brother used to get beat up on the school bus coz he dress oddly (He sort of went for a clockwork orange makeup and bowler hat thing. Looked creepy tbh). I respect his right to do it, but if you share a bus every day with a bunch of dick heads who beat up kids who dress different, you make your life easier by accepting that there are bad people out there and making yourself less of a target. It's bullshit, it's not right but it's a shitty fact of life.

 

[Jupiter551]

Yeah but...why are you comparing rape to theft? or bullying? Why assume the motives and motivations are the same or even similar?

Rape has a high rate in countries where most women are obliged to cover themselves completely.

There are no mitigating circumstances for rape. Someone could walk around nude with "I'm a filthy slut" written across her tits and it STILL wouldn't be her fault AT ALL if someone raped her. Rape is the point, rape is by definition not the victim's fault. There are no ifs or buts - if she "wanted it" and told you so then it wasn't rape, if she told you to stop and you didn't even after she'd given you head it's rape.

The point is not whether the cop should have toned down his language in the context, the point is that the cop apparently believes "sluts" deserve to be raped - and if girls don't want to be raped they shouldn't dress like that.

Even grandmothers get raped, in their own homes, so do children, and everyone in between...are you seriously going to suggest 'provocative' dress has anything to do with a violent sex-offender's MO?

 

[FifthElephant]

There are no mitigating circumstances for rape. Someone could walk around nude with "I'm a filthy slut" written across her tits and it STILL wouldn't be her fault AT ALL if someone raped her.

It not being her fault is unlikely to make her feel better after the event.
Some fraction of stranger rapists will pick victims that are (in their terms) 'asking for it' by dressing provocatively.
Is this fraction high or low - I'm unsure, not having done the research.
It seems unlikely to me that it's zero.

 

[JickyJuly]

I read somewhere that Ponytails draw rapists because they can latch onto hair and subdue a victim. I think sweatpants and overalls were on the list of draws too for their ease of access. I guess frumpy soccer moms and farmers are asking for it too? Personally, I'd rather dress slutty or however I like and carry mace.

No one is asking to be raped. For an officer of the law to insinuate that gives predators an excuse or thought process that they don't deserve at all. Not to mention that rapists ARENT turned on by their victim but by what they themselves are doing to said victim.

 

[Jupiter551]

There are no mitigating circumstances for rape. Someone could walk around nude with "I'm a filthy slut" written across her tits and it STILL wouldn't be her fault AT ALL if someone raped her.

It not being her fault is unlikely to make her feel better after the event.
Some fraction of stranger rapists will pick victims that are (in their terms) 'asking for it' by dressing provocatively.
Is this fraction high or low - I'm unsure, not having done the research.
It seems unlikely to me that it's zero.

I never said it was zero, I said there's no evidence it has a significant impact on who gets raped one way or the other.

Equating sexual attraction to rape - a crime about violent physical and psychological domination of another person - is idiotic.

 

[Wilfy84]

Whatever the circumstances (what they wear, how vulnerable a position they put themselves in, etc) the victim is never the one to be blamed.

In society, as an adult, you should know that rape is extremely wrong and any normal person would never do this, even if they knew they could get away with it.

What the policeman said was wrong and not backed up with any facts, simple as.

 

[Zoomer]

the point is that the cop apparently believes "sluts" deserve to be raped - and if girls don't want to be raped they shouldn't dress like that.

Holy FUCK that conclusion about what he thinks isn't even justifiable from what the cop said...

Since when does "don't dress like a slut" remotely give the indication that "sluts deserve to be raped".
Yeah, the cop was stupid saying what he said, but shit on a stick what you say is retarded too...

 

[Jupiter551]

the point is that the cop apparently believes "sluts" deserve to be raped - and if girls don't want to be raped they shouldn't dress like that.

Holy FUCK that conclusion about what he thinks isn't even justifiable from what the cop said...

Since when does "don't dress like a slut" remotely give the indication that "sluts deserve to be raped".
Yeah, the cop was stupid saying what he said, but shit on a stick what you say is retarded too...

Really? The cop said

“I’ve been told I’m not supposed to say this, however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.”

Okay, let's carry that thought through to its logical conclusion.

First off he says "dress like sluts", not "women should avoid being sluts", does that mean he's concerned that women who dress that way may inadvertently appear to be sluts and therefore be giving off mixed signals to rapists? If they were actual sluts instead of just dressing like them, would that mitigate the rape even more?

Saying that women who dress like sluts are deliberately doing something that increases their risk of being raped is tantamount to saying they're asking for it, and logically if women who just dress like sluts are asking for it, then under this line of thinking it would seem women who are in fact "sluts" (by I don't know who's definition) are asking for it even more.

The issue of consent is central to rape, obviously, and how many times have you heard a joke about how "you can't rape a hooker, it's theft" or whatever? I don't think it any stretch of the imagination to suggest this cop is implying something very similar - "if you dress like a slut you'll probably get treated like one" - ie raped, because y'know, it's okay to rape sluts right? :naughty:

 

[LadyLuna]

1. I don't see where the article gives an exact quote from him.

2. I don't see where the article says he was told not to say it before the fact. It seems to indicate that he was told that's not the way to teach people after the damage was done.

3. I do not believe that dressing non-provocatively will keep the real crazies away, but it might do something to keep from getting targeted by drunk fratboys.

4. I do not believe that any woman is asking to be raped, even if she talks about a fantasy in which it happens. Actually, especially that, because in the fantasy, it's always someone she wants to have sex with anyway. Which is why rape play is in no way a precursor to rape.

 

[Jupiter551]

On Jan. 24, Sanguinetti and another officer from 31 Division came to a York University safety forum at Osgoode.

Joey Hoffman, a residence fellow and member of the Osgoode student government, said only about 10 people attended but the room came to a stunned silence when the officer interrupted the more senior officer and made the reference to “sluts”.

“You know, I think we’re beating around the bush here,” the officer said, according to Hoffman. “I’ve been told I’m not supposed to say this, however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.”

The senior officer was silent for a moment and then picked up the presentation.

Full article http://www.thestar.com/news/article/940665--cop-apologizes-for-sluts-remark-at-law-school?bn=1

 

[FunsizeNerd]

“You know, I think we’re beating around the bush here,” the officer said, according to Hoffman. “I’ve been told I’m not supposed to say this, however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.”

It's entirely hearsay, just because of that. Unless it's a direct quote, anything can really be spun out of control. I'm not saying he didn't overstep his boundaries. It's utterly deplorable that this is a topic to begin with. It's obvious he did say something insensitive in some form or another, but you cannot say those words actually came out of his mouth.

 

[Zoomer]

On Jan. 24, Sanguinetti and another officer from 31 Division came to a York University safety forum at Osgoode.

Joey Hoffman, a residence fellow and member of the Osgoode student government, said only about 10 people attended but the room came to a stunned silence when the officer interrupted the more senior officer and made the reference to “sluts”.

“You know, I think we’re beating around the bush here,” the officer said, according to Hoffman. “I’ve been told I’m not supposed to say this, however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.”

The senior officer was silent for a moment and then picked up the presentation.

Full article http://www.thestar.com/news/article/940665--cop-apologizes-for-sluts-remark-at-law-school?bn=1

Seriously, "The Star" is the source? That article is written in such a way as to illicit the exact response you are showing... bear in mind that quotes aren't verbatim - they've taken pieces and patched them together (rather than giving the whole statement). You don't even know if they said it in one continuous sentence, or whether they've stuck together two or three sentences either. Who knows...

A quick pointer:

Rosemary Gartner, a University of Toronto criminologist, said linking style of dress to sexual assault is “ridiculous.”

“If that were the case, there would be no rapes of women who wear veils and we know there are rapes in those countries,” she said.

Her statement is misleading and her reasoning flawed.
"In those countries" where women aren't allowed to wear anything "provocative" anyway - so there's no "choice" of whom the rapist will rape, they go for it.
Secondly, as noted by statistics, a lot of ladies know their rapist - so it doesn't necessarily matter what they wear either.

However, that's not the actual points I wish to make. Her "reasoning" is utterly flawed.
You can deduce that ladies wearing full clothing/veils being raped does not mean rapists only prey upon those who wear skimpy clothes.
You cannot, however, deduce that because ladies who wear full clothing are raped that the nature of clothing may does not affect your risk/chances of being raped.
With records of the instances of rape, and all the various factors - drink, drugs, clothing, attacker (as in friend/stranger), circumstances - you may be able to draw out whether clothing (or lack of) is a statistically significant factor or not. If she had figures, and said this, then she'd be quite correct to do so. But she doesn't...

Linking provocative clothing to sexual assault “is a huge myth” and all it does is “blame the survivor of a sexual assault while taking the onus away from the perpetrator,” she said.

Note that "and all it does is" - added in by the editor, not what the lady said. Who knows what context EITHER portion was said in.

However - without hard statistics that take into consideration all the factors involved during a rape - including classification of "date rape" through spiked drinks (which is personally where I'd have thought clothing may be significant) - she's left saying "myth". If there is statistical evidence, she could say "we can say with a high degree of certainty that..." instead of "myth".

As for blaming the survivor - honestly, I've yet to see or hear anyone say it's the girls fault and not the rapist. I only see it in this thread...derived from the leading statements given in that source.

Without the entire transcript of the presentation, who knows what the police were saying. For that guy to put it into "layman's terms" (as we call it), I wouldn't be surprised if they were listing out factors that alter the risk of rape - such as being alone, being in poorly lit areas, drink/drugs and attire.

Just the way that cop said it was retarded - but I still maintain you cannot say, and that it is highly irresponsible to do so, that he believes girls who wear skimpy clothing deserve to be raped.

 

[tightlockup]

It's simple - No means no - English motherfucker do you speak it?

Next thing you know they'll be making wimmen wear burqas.

 

[harry]

Yeah but...why are you comparing rape to theft? ...

I made the comparison with what the LAPD are able to say about victims' behaviour, not the crimes themselves. LAPD can say tourists positively "invite theft" if they leave expensive items "in plain view", but this Toronto Police officer was apparently told he was not supposed to say that "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized".

I didn't know the officer was aware he was saying something contrary to instructions, so I'm even more surprised he failed to recognise likely response his audience would have to such provocative language.

Apparently he also failed to anticipate the reaction of his senior officer.

I would have paid to be there to savour that moment of silence. With just 10 in the room it's a relatively intimate setting, with time to scan the reaction of each and every person. :shock:

Obviously some would construe it as implying rape victims 'deserve it' or 'asking for it' because of how they dress, even if that wasn't what he said. The issue still seems to be more about the control of language, within the police and in general, rather than increasing personal safety in practice.

... Rape has a high rate in countries where most women are obliged to cover themselves completely. ...

...the point is that the cop apparently believes "sluts" deserve to be raped ...

I was quite struck by this assertion. What's the evidence that there are high rates of rape in countries where most women are obliged to cover themselves? I don't know of any evidence of a correlation. Perhaps survey responses, some research? Is this the flip-side of what the officer said? Asserting a correlation between dress and rape with the potential implication of a causal link too.

Comparing crime statistics is problematic, and reporting of rape and other sexual assaults especially so, but for what it's worth I had a look at the most comprehensive set of international data I could find: Wikpedia: UN [Recorded] Rape statistics - original survey data is linked in the footnotes.

From that set of UN collated data I tried to pick out states where cultural and religious norms tend to oblige women to dress modestly (largely Muslim or Hindu states). The correlation looks to be the reverse of what you said. Reported rates are particularly low in those states. Could non-reporting really explain that, especially when other states of similar levels of social and economic development have much higher reported rates?

Could cultures and religions that tend to oblige modest dress actually be less violent against women, especially in relation to sex, than advanced liberal states?

I don't imagine the data is comprehensive, I'm sure it reflects reporting rates of allegations as much as incidence of the crime, and the notes indicate wide variation in definitions used -- with rates highest in states where definitions are not the common definition of rape, like Sweden where rates have soared. Anyway, I plotted:

Mainly Muslim or Hindu states & reported rape rates 2006 & 2008
Given the difficulty of international comparisons, it's perhaps more interesting for the changing rates in each country over years -- those above trend increased between 2006 and 2008, those below decreased.



Significantly Muslim or Hindu states & reported rape rates 2006
2006 because that year has the most data for relevant states. This is slightly easier on the eye and to interpret:



Both link to the graphs, which you can manipulate, and the data set which you can re-present.

Personally I'm intrigued by the struggle over contrasting taboos in both language and dress arising from western liberal and traditional religious cultures.

...Next thing you know they'll be making wimmen wear burqas.

In many parts of continental Europe the 'next thing' is to actually ban the burqa. It's become taboo to western liberalism, I think of it as veil rage.

 

[Jupiter551]

Well, to respond in short form...if you do a bit of research about islamic law, customs, and society regarding rape (actually it's considered a form of adultery in islam, rape isn't apparently mentioned anywhere in the quran) the onus is put squarely on the woman to prove she was raped, prove it wasn't consensual, is required to produce 4 male witnesses, and therefore often hard or impossible to prove, and even in cases where the man or men involved are convicted, the woman herself is punished for being put in a position of having been raped.

Reported rape rates in Muslim countries are in fact the lowest in the world...precisely because a woman risks everything to report it, and even if the men are convicted routinely faces shame and retribution from her community.

Rape within marriage is also considered not to exist in Islamic culture because a wife should be sexually available to her husband at all times...

I'm not going to bother citing sources since you guys apparently don't like any of the ones I pick - look it up yourself, it's very easy to find.

“You know, I think we’re beating around the bush here,” the officer said, according to Hoffman. “I’ve been told I’m not supposed to say this, however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.”

It's entirely hearsay, just because of that. Unless it's a direct quote, anything can really be spun out of control. I'm not saying he didn't overstep his boundaries. It's utterly deplorable that this is a topic to begin with. It's obvious he did say something insensitive in some form or another, but you cannot say those words actually came out of his mouth.

No, hearsay is when one person tells another person something and neither of them were there. This isn't hearsay, because the person who the reporter cites as the source was in the room and heard it himself. It's an eyewitness report, and short of being caught on tape, you don't get any more concrete than that. Besides which, the cop has apologized for saying those words - it's not as if he's denied saying them.

And I disagree Zoomer, a law enforcement professional stating that women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be raped is another way of saying "if women dress like sluts and come across the wrong guy, they're provoking him" aka asking for it. If he wasn't implying they were provoking the rapist/asking for it, there would be NO conceivable argument against dressing how one likes.

 

[Zoomer]

For sources - you've provided one - the paper's article which reports it.

And I disagree Zoomer, a law enforcement professional stating that women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be raped is another way of saying "if women dress like sluts and come across the wrong guy, they're provoking him" aka asking for it. If he wasn't implying they were provoking the rapist/asking for it, there would be NO conceivable argument against dressing how one likes.

No, it really isn't. You are placing that interpretation into what he said. If it was obvious that is what he meant, he'd have been fired :roll:

"Dressing in excessively revealing clothing may, under certain circumstances, increase the risk a women faces from sexual predators."

Now, are you going to sit there and tell me that I obviously believe women deserve to be raped... :roll:

 

[Teagz]

That cop should have been fired. It doesn't matter if he flat out said 'I think sluts ask to be raped' he said it through context, perhaps unintentionally but that's what the way it came across.

 

[harry]

Well, to respond in short form...if you do a bit of research ...

Reported rape rates in Muslim countries are in fact the lowest in the world ... precisely because a woman risks everything to report it ...

I'm not going to bother citing sources since you guys apparently don't like any of the ones I pick - look it up yourself, it's very easy to find. ...

I already did a bit of research and cited the source so anyone can check the details if they like.

I asked what's the evidence that there are high rates of rape in countries where most women are obliged to cover themselves? I'm already very familiar with western liberal critiques of Islamic theology and culture, but they're not evidence of the correlation you said exists.

Crime statistics are problematic but surveys and other research can be designed to overcome some of the issues with relying solely reported crime rates. I did wonder if your assertion might be based on some research of that sort, which would be interesting, but apparently it's just an inference based on a view you have of Islamic theology and predominantly Muslim states.

What would explain the variation in reported rates between predominantly Muslim countries in the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia?

I already assumed you were talking about predominantly Muslim states, so I'd included India among the countries where modest dress is the cultural norm. Do you think Hindu theology explains their reported rates too? Perhaps south Asian cultural norms common to both Muslims and Hindus, as distinct from religion?

Perhaps non-religious cultural norms might also explain variations between reported rates in the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia.

I'm guessing there isn't a source to back up your assertion. I'd readily accept that Islamic theology and culture are significant factors in under-reporting. However, I don't think your blanked assertion that there are high rates of rape in such countries stands up, because your only evidence seems to be the very absence of reported cases.

 

[Jupiter551]

http://articles.cnn.com/2007-11-17/...1_saudi-women-victim-saudi-arabia?_s=PM:WORLD -a woman sentenced to 200 lashes and 6 months imprisonment for being gang-raped.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...s-gang-rape-claim-to-avoid-lashes-prison.html - woman withdraws gang rape allegations because she's scared of being punished by the court.

The point is that the lack of believeable rape statistics, combined with the brutality of specific incidents and punishment toward women who are raped is in itself highly suggestive of a culture that promotes repression of women's rights and punishes the ones who dare to come forward.

These are NOT matters of my opinion of Islamic countries, they're matters of Islamic Law - Shari'ah - and they are available for reference should you care to look.

Statistics aside, are you somehow asserting that a culture of repression and subservience for women, including blaming and shaming victims engenders a climate where women are not exposed to the same levels of sexual violence that they are in the west?

If you want to discount all of that for a lack of rape convictions in those countries...well that's a really slimy argument, and you're welcome to it.

Regarding Hindus...I'm not familiar enough to comment, though I would be suspicious that violence against women isn't prevalent in EVERY culture at the current point. I do know that again, Hindi culture is sometimes very repressive toward women.

I lived for 2 months with an older Hindu couple in England a few years ago, who were friends of my parents. They were lovely people, but it was odd that I never even learned the wife's name...because she was just referred to as "She" the entire time I was there. She also didn't eat with the rest of us. She'd cook a meal, lay it out and myself, the husband and her two sons would sit down to eat, then afterwards she'd clear it away without a word and I wouldn't see her again til the next meal.

I never suspected there was domestic violence going on, but I know enough to know that a culture like that makes it VERY HARD for women to report or do anything about violence and rape.

 

[Rose]

slightly off topic but i find that tight jeans make for difficult entry/exit...just my :twocents-02cents: has anyone ever tried to have a quickie in tight jeans? it's darn near impossible, so when i want to dress sexy without "asking for it" i wear some painted on pants, stilettos and carry my pocket knife. if i can't reach the knife then i bet a quick shoe popping off would make for a good eye poker..... :whistle:

 

[harry]

...Statistics aside, are you somehow asserting that a culture of repression and subservience for women, including blaming and shaming victims engenders a climate where women are not exposed to the same levels of sexual violence that they are in the west?

If you want to discount all of that for a lack of rape convictions in those countries...well that's a really slimy argument, and you're welcome to it.

I said I'd readily accept that Islamic theology and culture are significant factors in under-reporting. Convictions are another matter, not the same as reported offences or unreported ones.

I'm also saying you made an blanket assertion about the statistics, that there's a high rate of rape in countries where women are obliged to dress modestly, that you can't back up in any way.

Instead you're relying on incidental evidence, sweeping cultural generalisations, and repeatedly directing others do the research and find sources to back up your point rather than doing that yourself.