Pros and Cons of Cam Sites

[ryannnnnn]

I'm new here, let me introduce myself, my name is Ryan. I am a software developer from California. I've been juggling around a few ideas with a couple buddies of mine about possibly starting a new cam site. Knowing very little about the actual community I figured I'd best make this post and see what kind of feedback I can receive. So a few questions...

What are the biggest pitfalls to the current popular sites?

What are some of the best pros that some sites offer that others do not?

How often as a model are you responsible for charge-backs and fraud?

What is a good percentage of donation payouts for a model?

Opposed or supportive of video ads with shared revenue?

What features from each cam site appeal to you most?

What features do not exist that you wish did?

I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking of right now. Any input helps a ton.

 

[AmberCutie]

couple buddies of mine about possibly starting a new cam site. Knowing very little about the actual community

Just fair warning before other folks get a hold of this thread: this bit of info right here will make people pretty much auto-reject your idea.

Good luck.

 

[ryannnnnn]

Just fair warning before other folks get a hold of this thread: this bit of info right here will make people pretty much auto-reject your idea.

Good luck.

That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I figure gathering as much knowledge as possible and engaging in the community will put me leaps and bounds ahead of yesterday.

 

[Emberblaze]

You lost me at the word donation. Nothing we receive is a donation.

 

[TashaRose]

Honestly, search through ACF. There are at least a few similar endeavors over the last few years that I can think of. Look at the feedback to those dudes, look up Chloe Lewis's struggles with getting nood off the ground (and she was an experienced camgirl beforehand), and decide if this is still something you want to pursue. You probably won't get a lot of positive feedback from camgirls, after acknowledging you don't really know the industry. Regardless of whether it's true, the lack of community knowledge/investment makes you look like someone after a quick buck on the backs of ladies who tend to work their asses off, in a highly stigmatized industry.
If you still want to pursue things, I'd spend a whole lot of time familiarizing yourself with the in's and out's of the current major camsites, looking at what frequent complaints are, making sure you have the capital to do this (you're not going to get things going without paying for traffic initially, plus making sure you're paying models, even when you're running at a loss), and that you have an adult work friendly payment processor. That last bit is already difficult, and tbh with recent legislation, it may not get worse but I don't see it getting any better.

 

[ryannnnnn]

Honestly, search through ACF. There are at least a few similar endeavors over the last few years that I can think of. Look at the feedback to those dudes, look up Chloe Lewis's struggles with getting nood off the ground (and she was an experienced camgirl beforehand), and decide if this is still something you want to pursue. You probably won't get a lot of positive feedback from camgirls, after acknowledging you don't really know the industry. Regardless of whether it's true, the lack of community knowledge/investment makes you look like someone after a quick buck on the backs of ladies who tend to work their asses off, in a highly stigmatized industry.
If you still want to pursue things, I'd spend a whole lot of time familiarizing yourself with the in's and out's of the current major camsites, looking at what frequent complaints are, making sure you have the capital to do this (you're not going to get things going without paying for traffic initially, plus making sure you're paying models, even when you're running at a loss), and that you have an adult work friendly payment processor. That last bit is already difficult, and tbh with recent legislation, it may not get worse but I don't see it getting any better.

As you mentioned there is a lot of work involved to get something like this off the ground. Making a quick buck is out of the question as you see how much time and energy would have to go into such a thing. I want to build a platform that is shaped by the community's input during it's earliest stages of planning and development. My goal is to provide a good product in all it's technical aspects. As far as shaping the experience, I would like to leave that up to it's potential users. There are plenty of integral parts that I do not know the best way to go about and would love input, criticism, and professional insight. I want to make sure everyone is rewarded who participates, streamers, models, and viewers alike.

Examples of issues where I would need input would be the rating/scoring algorithms, what's the perfect balance of fair exposure between top producers and newbies a like. What would be preferred methods of payment, like you mentioned. What levels of control do model's want over their streams/channels. Nuances such as these issues really make or break a project and would be impossible for me to figure out on my own without going to forums and asking questions or camming on my own. Some of these things I can read enough and get a good idea, other issues I need and value the opinions of people who have been there and done that.

 

[TashaRose]

or camming on my own.

Honestly, I think that is a great idea and has been a suggestion many times when someone new to the industry wants to start a new business or service. It will give you hands on knowledge and experience. If that isn't something you're up for though, I'd suggest getting some people to work with you to help shape your plan.
If you are serious about wanting models' input and valuing their time and effort, I know previously a handful of ladies have said they are willing to do consulting on an hourly basis. That would be your best bet.

 

[ryannnnnn]

I know previously a handful of ladies have said they are willing to do consulting on an hourly basis. That would be your best bet.

I would love to pick someone's brain with years of experience on different platforms, that information would be well worth the money.

 

[Mila_]

If you have no knowledge or experience with camsites, how did you come up with the idea of building one?

 

[Ronaldod]

Main problem with cam sites is good traffic. The rest is easy'er. Take first how other sites handle their traffic. CB has an interesting system of 20% referral fee other have a one time sign up fee.
Next problem is the reimbursement system of the payment gateways. A lot of fraud happening so the gateways take a lot of % from the fees. And if you have to much fraud they close the gateway. To be honest the real % a cam site make is lower then you think. It is all about volume.
So if you have like $250k spare and a load of connections you can try to get it running. Else you can have a performer friendly site but no traffic means no $$ means performers will leave.

And this just for starters.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Ryan, my big question is why? I've invested in many startups, mostly but not exclusively technology ones. One of the key factors in investing if figuring out do the founders have domain expertise, or the more difficult one is their technology so good that it could be potentially disrupting in many markets. Of the most important aspects of camsite, I think the software is probably no higher than #5. What do you guys think your secret sauce/competitive advantage is?

1. Driving traffic
2. Marketing to both members and models
3. Customer support
4. Banking
5. Software (including UI, network efficiency etc.)

Model placement is a good question, but in truth, a website can be successful with a wide variety of placement algorithms. MFC uses highest revenue model are displayed first but has other options. Most other websites use a combination of most popular room, and the quality of the model's stream. In many cases, the placement algorithm is somewhat of a mystery. I've seen little evidence that camsite do extensive A-B to determine what's most effective.

 

[EdenUk]

Avoid it like the plague. Here are some reasons why:

1. The sex industry is constantly being cracked down on, trying to comply with ALL those things is not only costly, it's constant and at any point can result in loss of income or your entire business.

2. A fair selection of top girls in this industry have pockets deeper than anything, I'm talking millionaires. Along side a wealth of knowledge, following, experience, connections and the list goes on. IF setting up a cam site was such a wise idea, d'ya not think they could simply hire a guy like you, pay him well & combine that with the other crucial components they have?

3. It's being done, we have everything from two well established free chat/token sites, many group/ptv sites, phone sex operator sites, video platform sites, fan base sites and god knows else what. A new cam site isn't going to be a game changer for anyone. The guys are not too fussed on functions & layouts, they tend to stick to the site of the girls they like the most. The girls moan about ALL site functions, we're hard to please.

4. TRAFFIC, the holy friggin grail. Trust me when I say NO and I mean NO girl will bring traffic to the site. We want traffic there first. We certainly won't bring it (despite the % you pay) and 50% of $1000 is better than 90% of $100.
Advertising on other porn sites just brings the freeloading asses we all hate. Hell even girls moan about freeloaders on myfreecams.
Kinkbomb is a good example, they pay 90% tributes, highest in the industry. Girls still close most their stores on there because it's dead.

 

[EdenUk]

Infact, why don't you contact iwantclips if you are a software developer and offer your services to them.
Their website is always bloody down.

 

[Gen]

I’m trying to think of the last game-changing site, my guess is ManyVids? Not sure when they opened. But they are the most recent site I can think of that had much of an impact, and they’re a content site, not a cam site. They filled a nice, surprisingly basic niche (somewhere for vanilla models to sell videos, and for guys to go for basic, non-fetish/dom stuff), and partnered with some really successful models at a time when most weren’t selling on non-MFC sites.

I’m curious what the next impactful site is.

Sorry, not helpful for @ryannnnnn’s questions but just a ponder prompted by the thread.

 

[ryannnnnn]

I’m curious what the next impactful site is.

Determining where there’s a need for innovation seems like half the battle. Right now we’ve been throwing around ideas. The live streaming entertainment industry as a whole is who we want to cater to.

Sorry, not helpful for @ryannnnnn’s questions but just a ponder prompted by the thread.

Very insightful, thank you.

 

[AmberCutie]

Determining where there’s a need for innovation

live streaming entertainment industry as a whole

Currently no void to fill in that area.

As was suggested, maybe find a struggling site that's already started to delve into.

 

[Chojin]

What is a good percentage of donation payouts for a model?

Chaturbate take 40 to 50% of a model's earnings which is way too high. 3 to 10% would be fair.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Chaturbate take 40 to 50% of a model's earnings which is way too high. 3 to 10% would be fair.

Yup the way to make $10 million running a camsite is to start with $100 million and give models 97% of the earnings.

 

[Ambers Troll]

Avoid it like the plague. Here are some reasons why:

1. The sex industry is constantly being cracked down on, trying to comply with ALL those things is not only costly, it's constant and at any point can result in loss of income or your entire business.

2. A fair selection of top girls in this industry have pockets deeper than anything, I'm talking millionaires. Along side a wealth of knowledge, following, experience, connections and the list goes on. IF setting up a cam site was such a wise idea, d'ya not think they could simply hire a guy like you, pay him well & combine that with the other crucial components they have?

3. It's being done, we have everything from two well established free chat/token sites, many group/ptv sites, phone sex operator sites, video platform sites, fan base sites and god knows else what. A new cam site isn't going to be a game changer for anyone. The guys are not too fussed on functions & layouts, they tend to stick to the site of the girls they like the most. The girls moan about ALL site functions, we're hard to please.

4. TRAFFIC, the holy friggin grail. Trust me when I say NO and I mean NO girl will bring traffic to the site. We want traffic there first. We certainly won't bring it (despite the % you pay) and 50% of $1000 is better than 90% of $100.
Advertising on other porn sites just brings the freeloading asses we all hate. Hell even girls moan about freeloaders on myfreecams.
Kinkbomb is a good example, they pay 90% tributes, highest in the industry. Girls still close most their stores on there because it's dead.

I suggest reading this post again... every word carefully until you understood it.

Will make my contribution to the question while here.
If you are for real, not dreaming, the first thing you will need is a few of these 'top girls' to start using whatever you produce. Save them time, save them money, or a way to increase/ improve business i.e.make them money: models are very practical.
I'd ask where they waste their time, what their biggest costs are, and what gets most in the way of their earnings.

One for earnings is on time off/ away from producing content or being on cam. Models tend to lose customers each time they take a break. Finding a platform for models to keep earning while on break and keep customer interest until returning would be a salable feature.

Another may be ways to determine when their biggest customer base is online. Models often talk about optimum camming times... being on when your customers aren't is a horrible thing for a model. For members the same is true, sometimes finding the best model for us can be a challenge.
If one of you is good with metadata there may be an opportunity there. I remember watching a talk on new ways of searching the net based more on exploration than keyword/ tag methods that better helps you find what you are looking for, this would sell in the cam industry.

You will note that all these 2 suggestions on problems to solve are about Traffic as Loulou said earlier.

 

[SaffronBurke]

Chaturbate take 40 to 50% of a model's earnings which is way too high. 3 to 10% would be fair.

While that would be nice, it's just not feasible with operating costs.

 

[PrettyPistol21]

I'm just trying to figure all this shit out !!

 

[Chojin]

Yup the way to make $10 million running a camsite is to start with $100 million and give models 97% of the earnings.

For example, eBay charge 10% commission and they're making a mint. Obviously, you can't really compare Chaturbate to a giant like eBay, but 40 to 50% is nuts. I personally find eBay's 10% cut extortionate. I would imagine 3 to 10% of 100 mil would cover server costs and then some. Would you take half the tips from a waitress? Chaturbate are doing nothing wrong with their charges as they'e not forcing anyone to cam there. With that in mind, what are everyone's thoughts on why Chaturbate is one of the most popular camsites? The layout is nice and easy for newcomers to adopt. I don't view any other camsites but that one.

 

[Ronaldod]

Chaturbate take 40 to 50% of a model's earnings which is way too high. 3 to 10% would be fair.

You forget some details. CB takes 50%. They pay out 20% to referrals. They also give discount to members that buy large amounts of tokens. also another 15-20%. They have to deal with the payment costs and then also the rest of company. Administration, Hardware and software maintenance. The margin is low and it all about the huge volume they make the money to keep it running. For a startup these margins are to low.

But then again if you change the system to something like skypeprivate. It has no need for a huge backend system. Only a payment/booking portal. For the rest is traffic and good reputation with customer and performers and slowly let it grow. There you can have a better margin for it.

Or myfan sites. Only hosting video's and let the perfomers make their advertising. Also a neat trick.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

For example, eBay charge 10% commission and they're making a mint. Obviously, you can't really compare Chaturbate to a giant like eBay, but 40 to 50% is nuts. I personally find eBay's 10% cut extortionate. I would imagine 3 to 10% of 100 mil would cover server costs and then some. Would you take half the tips from a waitress? Chaturbate are doing nothing wrong with their charges as they'e not forcing anyone to cam there. With that in mind, what are everyone's thoughts on why Chaturbate is one of the most popular camsites? The layout is nice and easy for newcomers to adopt. I don't view any other camsites but that one.

Part of the reason Ebay has low commissions is that it uses Paypal which has much lower merchant charges than credit cards. Of course, Paypal doesn't allow porn, in large part because porn industry is notorious for huge chargebacks. Nor is eBay super profitable making 14 cents per dollar of revenue compared to 22-23 for Apple or Google. So banking is particularly hard for porn sites, between the high fraud charges and the various crackdowns by the government.

50% may seem excessive but it's not unusual. My sister is an artist and the art galleries that have her painting keep 50% of the revenue. Writers typically only keep 10%, even digital books typically only pay out 35% for the authors. Similarly payout in the music industry. Strip clubs typically don't pay strippers rather the girls pay the club so much per dance/night for the privilege of stripping. I'll let girls who've done it talk about how much they keep. Waiters only keep less than 15% of the price of a meal, since they share tips with others.

It is also worth noting that the 40-50% that Chaturbate and MFC take is more generous than most camsites. Streammate takes 65% and I think others have similar low payouts,.

There are other expenses, servers, bandwidth, admin, customer support. But the huge expense is driving traffic to the site, especially with MFC and Chaturabates business model where the vast majority of folks watching pay nothing.and even with several hundred (or thousands in the case of CB) watching, only dozen or so tip. Plus you have to drive traffic to your site without using the two most cost-effective websites on the internet Facebook and Google.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I’m trying to think of the last game-changing site, my guess is ManyVids? Not sure when they opened. But they are the most recent site I can think of that had much of an impact, and they’re a content site, not a cam site. They filled a nice, surprisingly basic niche (somewhere for vanilla models to sell videos, and for guys to go for basic, non-fetish/dom stuff), and partnered with some really successful models at a time when most weren’t selling on non-MFC sites.
.

Manyvids also hit a really good one when they allowed you to host your videos on their site and send a free download link to members. This meant at the time that whenever a lot of girls were on MFC they had a link to their Manyvids store and every time they sold a video they'd be linking someone over to Manyvids where they'd have to make a free account to download the video. Now of course MFC has tapped into the video market (finally) and this is no longer allowed as videos can be purchased directly through MFC share.

Honestly as everyone else has said, in terms of a regular run of the mill camsite you're unlikely to grab a new niche. You could maybe do a kink only site (I don't know if there are any already), which could attract kink based models and members. Clips4Sale has tapped into this market in terms of clips, but I don't know if you can do live camming there. I also don't know how well live kink stuff would pay as much of it needs to be prepared in advance. The OP actually comes across very nice and professional which is rare, so I'll give my best tips.

Another option could be tapping into the online gaming market and creating a Twitch competitor which allows streamers more freedom in terms of outfits. I don't know how this would work in terms of legality due to potential underage viewers, but even if there weren't nudity, having a more encouraged tip culture and allowing performers to do more stuff like cosplay without kicking them off would be cool. You might also be able to bring in a fair few former Twitch streamers/youtubers who were kicked off Twitch. There is clearly a market for watching hot girls gaming in cute outfits/underwear, how big I do not know, but an adult's only version of Twitch might potentially work. Bear in mind that MFC has already being creating a non nude spin off of MFC which has been in beta for about a year now. Like any site it may well completely flop.

You're not in England so this probably wouldn't be possible, but there is a site here called AdultWork which as well as being a cam site also allows independent escorts to advertise and book from their site. Prostitution is legal in the UK, though I am not entirely sure about how the legality of this works as advertising services is not technically legal. The site Adultwork is notorious for being badly run and not treating those using the site for work well. I imagine if someone with a professional, sex worker positive attitude wanted to create a website offering similar services, it may not be hard to get the workers to cross over. But you would have to be based in the UK I think so that's probably not necessarily the best idea. I have considered this as a project as it's clearly a requirement, but I'm not big on creating websites so I'd have to employ others to do all the work. I mention this here as there are lots of escorts being treated poorly by this horrible site yet not having anywhere else to work from, so if someone were to have a look into that idea it might be worthwhile. I put emphasis on being sex worker positive though. The last thing anyone needs is another arsehole who thinks sex workers are scum getting involved in the industry.

Honestly, as others have already mentioned, this is currently not a great industry to get into. The big sites are now huge, and are catching onto what models want/don't want already. Some sites I didn't ever believe would go anywhere are still running, so it is possible to get in there, but at this point the market is saturated. You're really going to have to spend a long time researching to find the niche. I have no idea if there truly is one in mainstream camsites.

The only other niche I can think of is a really good camsite aimed towards straight women, I thought of this years ago and still have no idea if it'd make money. It might though. It'd have to be very different to camsites aimed towards men though, and even sites which allow male models to cam. Probably more like MFC/Twitch in terms of friendship/conversation rather than just guys who want to get their junk out on display. The quality of the models would need to be good in terms of being approachable and good to chat to/entertaining to watch without being intimidating. I have no idea if this type of site would make a penny, though with more women working hard and having good income, and many divorced women with spare cash there might be a niche. Women are also gradually becoming more looks focused. I guess it'd be like "boyfriend experience". Might be worth doing some research into.

 

[EdenUk]

Regarding percentage that the sites take. Nobody has considered other costs revolving around the adult industry.

For example payment processors charge much more fees and higher % to these companies for processing adult related transactions. It’s deemed as a high risk business.

Legal fees surrounding this industry are more on going than many others. Many legal implications, not to mention them having to be up to date legally with all the new rules and restrictions to ensure they are above board.

They are essentially saving any model marketing costs, usually involved in any business. We go onto the site and usually most of the traffic is provided to us. Yes we can and do bring our own but they do provide our market audience. That costs them and no extra cost to us.

So I think most girls who can recognise this are reasonably ok with the % they take. We have the luxury to charge our own prices to make the profits we wish to make.

 

[EdenUk]

I suggest reading this post again... every word carefully until you understand .

I don’t think the OP @ryannnnnn was interested in my post. I’m not convinced he is interested in knowing the hardcore realities of having a business in the adult industry or even coming into it for the right reasons. Money isn’t the right reason.
No business is good enough to open based on money.
So he probably didn’t give my post a second look.

 

[Ronaldod]

Oh one detail it is not about the share that the performer makes it is about the amount the performer gets paid at the end of the shift.

 

[Majora Mink]

The only other niche I can think of is a really good camsite aimed towards straight women, I thought of this years ago and still have no idea if it'd make money. It might though. It'd have to be very different to camsites aimed towards men though, and even sites which allow male models to cam. Probably more like MFC/Twitch in terms of friendship/conversation rather than just guys who want to get their junk out on display. The quality of the models would need to be good in terms of being approachable and good to chat to/entertaining to watch without being intimidating. I have no idea if this type of site would make a penny, though with more women working hard and having good income, and many divorced women with spare cash there might be a niche. Women are also gradually becoming more looks focused. I guess it'd be like "boyfriend experience". Might be worth doing some research into.

Or we can just binge watch Japanese host club dramas XD My guiltiest pleasure~

But for reals, from what I hear about them, those hosts are MEGA HOT and masterful speakers. This is just regards to East Asia though, I'm not sure how it would work for other audiences... Too rich for my blood, but hey, I'll keep you posted if I ever do some investigative research China was famous for having a fake boyfriend to introduce parents to get them off your back about marriage... I remember a older-man from Japan offering his... older-man services (non-sexual?) but kind of like a date?

Western men just get a greater feeling of reward interacting with women than the other way around... But I think it is more likely other women in the sex industry would be the most accepting initially (but far more discerning)... As a mainstream concept, maybe it would be good to start it as something innocent and playful:

"PAY HOTTIES TO READ POEMS DESCRIBING YOUR BEAUTY!"

"ENJOY PRETEND CAFE DATE WITH DAVID BECKHAM LOOKALIKE *online now!!!*"

"ALL I WANT IS TO LISTEN TO YOUR PROBLEMS, BB"

 

[SaffronBurke]

Oh one detail it is not about the share that the performer makes it is about the amount the performer gets paid at the end of the shift.

Absolutely! I make more at the end of a shift on a site where I make 30%, than I do on a site where I make 60%. My paychecks are so much bigger, it doesn't even feel like I'm making a smaller percentage.