One year since Trump's election

[Val Vega]

For Republicans, sexual assault and harassment only matter as much as they can weaponize it against the other side. When the head of your party is a self-confessed sexual predator, you cannot claim any moral authority here. I don't want to hear what some Republican has to say about Al Franken until I hear them attack their own president for his repeated and willful attacks on the bodies of women that he has corroborated himself on TAPE.

The only Moore is an issue for them even is because he is not the candidate they wanted in the Senate. They wanted Luther Strange, someone more likely to vote along their lines and to head off a populist wave of being primary'd by Trumpists.

 

[heybarkeep]

Tell me how it is ignorant when the same groups that celebrate "MAGA" and wear those hats are also the same ones that wear swastikas and white hoods. When "MAGA" is simply a coded phrase for driving out non-white, non-straight, non-cis elements of society. You just don't want to acknowledge reality because it is inconvenient for any argument you want to make here.

I'm happy to not live in your angry and hate filled illogical make believe reality. Seems like a terrible place.


Any comparisons to Moore from the right are disingenuous and laughable. Any attempts to downplay or excuse Franken's actions via comparison are demoralizing and unjustifiable. Should be an issue that transcends political allegiances.

 

[Gen]

They wanted Luther Strange, someone more likely to vote along their lines and to head off a populist wave of being primary'd by Trumpists.

I know nothing about this man but jeeeez what a super villain name.

Any comparisons to Moore from the right are disingenuous and laughable. Any attempts to downplay or excuse Franken's actions via comparison are demoralizing and unjustifiable. Should be an issue that transcends political allegiances.

I agree with this.

 

[dilligaf0]

Any comparisons to Moore from the right are disingenuous and laughable. Any attempts to downplay or excuse Franken's actions via comparison are demoralizing and unjustifiable. Should be an issue that transcends political allegiances

Okay, let's look at non-political facts that are known now.

Al Franken has one accuser and she was an adult at the time. He has admitted to it and apologized.
Roy Moore has multiple accusers, (nine I believe) most of whom were teenagers and one under the legal age of consent in this country.
Donald Trump has multiple accusers, admission of misbehaving on video tape and another admission (on audio tape) of walking into the dressing room of the Teen Miss Universe pageant while many of the contestants were in various states of undress.

There, facts.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Since her accusations of "he groped me/touched my breasts while I was sleeping" are clearly an exaggeration (there's photo evidence that it wasn't even a touch) makes me unconvinced that the kiss scene was as dramatic as she may recall**. And Franken says while he accepts her story and apologizes for it, doesn't remember it the same way.

Having this strike against him, sure I agree he should be removed from office. I think anyone in a government position should be removed if they've committed a crime or have harassed anyone. I was just explaining how icky it is that his incident is even be placed on the same level as Moore's given the actual details of each.

edit to add**:Add in the fact that it appeared to be a pre-planned announcement and a coordinated publicity stunt only makes it seem more suspect.

As a society, we have to start differentiating between the Al Franken/George Takai and the Moore/Weinstein/Clinton/Trump.
It seems that some of the purposes the #metoo movement was for women to tell their stories to make everybody aware of how prevalent sexual harassment and when one woman goes forward saying Joe BigWig did this to me it would encourage other women to do the same.
For me, once 3 women have come forward (or one minor), I don't need any more evidence. The dude is a sexual predator, and I want to see him jailed, if not I'm happy to grab a pitchfork and a nasty tweet, and urge that he lose his job and be shunned by society. It's possible that all 3 women are lying but the odds are slim.
But it scares me if we are to the point, where it is one accusation and your done. Do we really every guy who's ever in their life tried to force a kiss, grabbed a boob, or a butt is to lose their job and be forever labeled as a predator? It seems to me that guys deserve some type of due process.
We already have 6 million felons (many of whom were convicted of pretty low-level crimes) who struggle to get jobs because of their felony conviction. If Franken is the new standard, we are going to have a boatload of unemployed guys.

 

[JickyJuly]

I don't really understand why there have to be a number of complaints against a person. If these dudes had one complaint that was loud enough to draw unwanted attention, they'd be fired from a regular job. If we're not talking about sending Al, or whomever is next, to prison, their guilt or innocence doesn't really need to be proven. Do Franken's all of female colleagues feel comfortable dealing with him anymore? Do all of his constituents feel comfortable calling his office? The damage is done professionally speaking. It needs to be dealt with whether he professes innocence (and he doesn't) or not.

I've never been accused of sexual misconduct in the workplace. Even working in a sex shop...never. I've only in my 19 years of working seen one person fired for something sexual. I can't imagine that this is a big enough issue that there needs to be policy in place to protect men.

 

[dilligaf0]

Donald Trump has multiple accusers, admission of misbehaving on video tape and another admission (on audio tape) of walking into the dressing room of the Teen Miss Universe pageant while many of the contestants were in various states of undress.

Too late to edit.
CORRECTION: It was the Teen Miss U.S.A. pageant.

 

[dilligaf0]

As a society, we have to start differentiating between the Al Franken/George Takai and the Moore/Weinstein/Clinton/Trump.
It seems that some of the purposes the #metoo movement was for women to tell their stories to make everybody aware of how prevalent sexual harassment and when one woman goes forward saying Joe BigWig did this to me it would encourage other women to do the same.
For me, once 3 women have come forward (or one minor), I don't need any more evidence. The dude is a sexual predator, and I want to see him jailed, if not I'm happy to grab a pitchfork and a nasty tweet, and urge that he lose his job and be shunned by society. It's possible that all 3 women are lying but the odds are slim.
But it scares me if we are to the point, where it is one accusation and your done. Do we really every guy who's ever in their life tried to force a kiss, grabbed a boob, or a butt is to lose their job and be forever labeled as a predator? It seems to me that guys deserve some type of due process.
We already have 6 million felons (many of whom were convicted of pretty low-level crimes) who struggle to get jobs because of their felony conviction. If Franken is the new standard, we are going to have a boatload of unemployed guys.

I'll go even farther.
Franken / Moore / Trump are people in a position of power over the entire country (or in Moore's case.......wants to be such a person).
Clinton was impeached and that issue was dealt with and in the past. Over and done with.
The others are entertainment people and are not running the country. Let their employers / fans / companies deal with them.

 

[dilligaf0]

I don't really understand why there have to be a number of complaints against a person. If these dudes had one complaint that was loud enough to draw unwanted attention, they'd be fired from a regular job. If we're not talking about sending Al, or whomever is next, to prison, their guilt or innocence doesn't really need to be proven. Do Franken's all of female colleagues feel comfortable dealing with him anymore? Do all of his constituents feel comfortable calling his office? The damage is done professionally speaking. It needs to be dealt with whether he professes innocence (and he doesn't) or not.

I've never been accused of sexual misconduct in the workplace. Even working in a sex shop...never. I've only in my 19 years of working seen one person fired for something sexual. I can't imagine that this is a big enough issue that there needs to be policy in place to protect men.

There actually was a statement today from women that have worked for and in Al Franken's office since he was elected and they stated there was no questionable behavior towards them by him. They felt he respected them and valued their work.
We can't really consider sending anyone "to prison" unless there are charges pressed by an accuser. Franken's accuser doesn't want to prosecute him. She said so publicly.

 

[JickyJuly]

Agree. I'm not suggesting he be sent to prison. I just think one instance of questionable behavior is enough to create an issue at his workplace. Even if the current women there feel fine with it, what about future openings? Will as many women apply? It's a government position. This should be zero tolerance. I've been fired for less. I wouldn't group these folks the way HiGirls by the severity of their actions. I would group Takei/Weinstein together in that their behavior effects their own livelihood, and Franken/Trump/Clinton/Moore together in that they are employees or potential employees. Honestly, given the political climate, I think that if Franken had any loyalty to his party, he'd already have packed up his desk.

Have we talked about the tax cuts, pipeline spill or big game trophies yet?

 

[Val Vega]

The tax bill is a massive transfer of wealth from the poor and middle class to the already insanely wealthy. It is a massive theft.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Clinton was impeached and that issue was dealt with and in the past. Over and done with.

I strongly disagree there. "That issue was litigated..."; that was Hillary's weak assed line in one of the interviews I watched, giving herself a free pass while decrying all the moral ills and thought crimes that exist in others. Made me want to vomit.

Another interesting turn in the Franken story
http://www.dailywire.com/news/23720/feminist-writer-frankens-accuser-probably-lying-hank-berrien

 

[dilligaf0]

Agree. I'm not suggesting he be sent to prison. I just think one instance of questionable behavior is enough to create an issue at his workplace. Even if the current women there feel fine with it, what about future openings? Will as many women apply? It's a government position. This should be zero tolerance. I've been fired for less. I wouldn't group these folks the way HiGirls by the severity of their actions. I would group Takei/Weinstein together in that their behavior effects their own livelihood, and Franken/Trump/Clinton/Moore together in that they are employees or potential employees. Honestly, given the political climate, I think that if Franken had any loyalty to his party, he'd already have packed up his desk.

Have we talked about the tax cuts, pipeline spill or big game trophies yet?

If you saw my earlier post (sorry they were broken up into 3 different ones, my bad) I did break those up almost the exact same way.
The only exception is Clinton. He was impeached and whatever punishment that was deemed necessary at the time was dealt out to him, so that's history.
Tax cut is a gift to the rich donors at everyone else's expense.
Pipeline spill, well we really knew that was going to happen didn't we?
Big game trophies, well Uday and Qusay Trump want more trophies.

 

[dilligaf0]

I strongly disagree there. "That issue was litigated..."; that was Hillary's weak assed line in one of the interviews I watched, giving herself a free pass while decrying all the moral ills and thought crimes that exist in others. Made me want to vomit.

Bill Clinton was dealt with, period, over, history.
Hillary Clinton didn't do that, Bill did.
SEPARATE ALLEGATIONS!
Franken's accuser's motives and reasons don't matter once he apologized. Franken did say he didn't remember the incident the same way she did but he didn't use it as a way out. He still apologized for making her feel uncomfortable regardless.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Bill Clinton was dealt with, period, over, history.
Hillary Clinton didn't do that, Bill did.
SEPARATE ALLEGATIONS!

Bullshit.
She is neck deep in it with him. She was/is complicit. And it isn't just sex stuff either.
"Protecting women and children"...I remember her mentioning that during the campaign. A matter of political expediency; a facade behind which evil lurks? And it isn't just her.

 

[JickyJuly]

If you saw my earlier post (sorry they were broken up into 3 different ones, my bad) I did break those up almost the exact same way.

Yes! Sorry to echo you. I missed one. I totally hate the way Bill Clinton was dealt with. If he was managing a Pizza Hut and bent a lower employee over in the back office, he'd have been fired. Not a great moment for our country.

Do we really every guy who's ever in their life tried to force a kiss, grabbed a boob, or a butt is to lose their job and be forever labeled as a predator? It seems to me that guys deserve some type of due process.
We already have 6 million felons (many of whom were convicted of pretty low-level crimes) who struggle to get jobs because of their felony conviction. If Franken is the new standard, we are going to have a boatload of unemployed guys.

Do you think that's how it would go? I suspect people would behave better and my daughters would be safer in work environments twenty years from now. So, it sounds pretty good to me. Either way, I'm not saying private businesses should be required to fire ass grabbers. If they keep them, it's their own liability to deal with should lawsuits follow. I'm just saying that government jobs/positions should have a zero tolerance policy. Their liability is our country's liability. They're not a private group. They should be held to a higher standard.

 

[dilligaf0]

Bullshit.
She is neck deep in it with him. She was/is complicit. And it isn't just sex stuff either.
"Protecting women and children"...I remember her mentioning that during the campaign. A matter of political expediency; a facade behind which evil lurks? And it isn't just her.

Then why wasn't she ever charged or prosecuted?
Why didn't anyone press charges against her?
Her political views are a different thing from her husband's offences.
Quit conflating them.
You disagree with her, fine.
She lost, celebrate.
Trump's running the country, that's a fucking shame.

 

[AmberCutie]

I strongly disagree there. "That issue was litigated..."; that was Hillary's weak assed line in one of the interviews I watched, giving herself a free pass while decrying all the moral ills and thought crimes that exist in others. Made me want to vomit.

Another interesting turn in the Franken story
http://www.dailywire.com/news/23720/feminist-writer-frankens-accuser-probably-lying-hank-berrien

Facepalm at the story, not you.

But holy cow, man, if there was ANY reason to doubt the seriousness of the accusation or the actual incident's details, it wasn't gonna be because she was previously naked in a magazine. That Vivian chick is a dingus, not helping anything.

 

[Bocefish]

And Trump avoids responsibility for the 4 Green Berets that died in Niger.

I haven't been keeping up with current events as much as I'd like lately.

How do their deaths compare with Hillary's failures in Benghazi?

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Then why wasn't she ever charged or prosecuted?
Why didn't anyone press charges against her?

Good question.
Maybe it will happen, I don't know. I find it very strange that her and John Podesta both have come out with warnings about what an investigation into them would mean for the "democracy" (*cough-cough) we have enjoyed for the last few decades.

Her political views are a different thing from her husband's offences.

The role she played in covering for her husbands offenses is a perfect example of the blatant hypocrisy that permeates the morally and intellectually superior "do as I say not as I do" crowd.

 

[Bocefish]

I think either way we'd be disappointed. Not sure if we'd be more embarrassed by Hillary though, seeing as how current POTUS has acted like a kinder-gardener in social media, tweets, and all other forms of communication since being sworn in.

Can you envision Hillary making ANY progress with Korea or Iran the way Trump has done?

I totally agree he's an overgrown infant when it comes to social media among certain other things, but given the current situation being what it is... I'd much rather have D in office than H.

.02

 

[Bocefish]

Good question.
Maybe it will happen, I don't know. I find it very strange that her and John Podesta both have come out with warnings about what an investigation into them would mean for the "democracy" (*cough-cough) we have enjoyed for the last few decades.

The role she played in covering for her husbands offenses is a perfect example of the blatant hypocrisy that permeates the morally and intellectually superior "do as I say not as I do" crowd.

The ONLY reason she stayed with slick Willy was due to the fact that it was in her best political interests. She tried to diminish all the women slick willy sexually abused with his power in just about every way possible.

 

[Bocefish]

The MAGA hat is a symbol of oppression.

Please explain how a "Make America Great Again" slogan is a symbol of oppression?

 

[dilligaf0]

How do their deaths compare with Hillary's failures in Benghazi?

They died on his watch. That's all that's needed isn't it?

Maybe it will happen, I don't know. I find it very strange that her and John Podesta both have come out with warnings about what an investigation into them would mean for the "democracy"

What's the source of these "warnings"? I've never heard of them.

The role she played in covering for her husbands offenses is a perfect example of the blatant hypocrisy that permeates the morally and intellectually superior "do as I say not as I do" crowd.

Laura Bush should be investigated because her husband invaded Iraq for no reason?

Can you envision Hillary making ANY progress with Korea or Iran the way Trump has done?

What progress? Iran can still develop nukes and North Korea still has them?

I'd much rather have D in office than H.

Neither was a good option.

The ONLY reason she stayed with slick Willy was due to the fact that it was in her best political interests. She tried to diminish all the women slick willy sexually abused with his power in just about every way possible.

Why were there no indictments of her then?
Do you have any proof other than opinions?

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Do you think that's how it would go? I suspect people would behave better and my daughters would be safer in work environments twenty years from now. So, it sounds pretty good to me. Either way, I'm not saying private businesses should be required to fire ass grabbers. If they keep them, it's their own liability to deal with should lawsuits follow. I'm just saying that government jobs/positions should have a zero tolerance policy. Their liability is our country's liability. They're not a private group. They should be held to a higher standard.

I think, and certainly hope, that life will be better for your daughters due to this. I frankly hate all zero tolerance policy, because I think they routinely lead to significant injustice. That said I could certainly see zero-tolerance for government official while in office. But this was a dozen years ago and Franken wasn't a government official he was a comedian and he wasn't even in a position of authority over LeeAnn.
Back in 1999, Congressman David Livingston was supposed to become Speaker of the House after Newt Gingrich, but he resigned after reports that had affairs (not with staffers) came to light. He resigned and urged Clinton to do the same. What Franken did is worse than what Livingston did so it's not unreasonable to say Franken should step down. But both Clinton and Trump have down worse and that seems very unjust that we treat, what seems like a single instance of awful behavior worse than predators like Clinton and Trump.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

What's the source of these "warnings"? I've never heard of them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...d366c8-ca2a-11e7-aa96-54417592cf72_story.html
http://www.motherjones.com/politics...ounsel-threat-this-is-such-an-abuse-of-power/

Laura Bush should be investigated because her husband invaded Iraq for no reason?

Tut tut, that is a "whataboutism", a well known Russian propaganda technique.

Laura Bush was more of a traditional First lady. Hillary and Bill are more of a crime partnership. Hillary was all up in there with her healthcare plan, Whitewater, and all that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/06/...-first-lady-powerful-but-not-always-deft.html
And that is just Bill's administration, not her time as Secretary of State. Or the underhanded (criminal?) stuff that supposedly went on behind the scenes of her campaign, which I am now pretty convinced is true after seeing one "conspiracy theory/Russian propaganda" confirmed.

If she ever winds up getting an indictment rape-cultured right up her wage gap, I won't be the least bit sorry.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

That is patently ridiculous. People defending themselves from hate groups, like the Nazis and KKK, are in no way shape or form "stooping to the same level." It must be easy to sit where you are not having your life regularly threatened by others and to not have to defend yourself constantly.

You absolutely are. You are saying people defending themselves from attack are just as bad as the groups attacking them. That's exactly what you're saying here.

I'm not saying they can't defend themselves if attacked. What I am referring to is statements you've made where blanketly calling anyone who wears a MAGA hat is a KKK/Nazi supporter. That is no different than someone making a blanket statement against the LGBT community.

Statements such as you've made in this post, is what I am referring to:

Wearing a MAGA hat is tantamount to saying you support racism and homophobia. No different than wearing a swastika or white hood. You better be prepared for whatever happens to you.

Meaning, if you or others are going to assault (physically or verbally) someone just for wearing a hat, it is NO DIFFERENT than the groups you accuse them of doing.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

I think, and certainly hope, that life will be better for your daughters due to this. I frankly hate all zero tolerance policy, because I think they routinely lead to significant injustice. That said I could certainly see zero-tolerance for government official while in office. But this was a dozen years ago and Franken wasn't a government official he was a comedian and he wasn't even in a position of authority over LeeAnn.
Back in 1999, Congressman David Livingston was supposed to become Speaker of the House after Newt Gingrich, but he resigned after reports that had affairs (not with staffers) came to light. He resigned and urged Clinton to do the same. What Franken did is worse than what Livingston did so it's not unreasonable to say Franken should step down. But both Clinton and Trump have down worse and that seems very unjust that we treat, what seems like a single instance of awful behavior worse than predators like Clinton and Trump.

Clinton and Trump should have/should step down as well. As has mentioned, they are in a position of power, and therefore should be held to a higher standard. Yes, people make mistakes. But, these are acts where "normal people" have lost their jobs due to said acts. The same should be true for entertainers and athletes.

Why should there be two sets of standards? Everyone should be subject to the same laws, same punishments. This is one of the biggest issues I have with legislatures. They make laws which they exempt themselves from.

 

[heybarkeep]

I'm not saying they can't defend themselves if attacked. What I am referring to is statements you've made where blanketly calling anyone who wears a MAGA hat is a KKK/Nazi supporter. That is no different than someone making a blanket statement against the LGBT community.

Statements such as you've made in this post, is what I am referring to:


Meaning, if you or others are going to assault (physically or verbally) someone just for wearing a hat, it is NO DIFFERENT than the groups you accuse them of doing.

She had already begun pretending that her plight was comparable to the Jews and the Holocaust as soon as Trump won. I'll save her the embarrassment and won't link to the cringe inducing drivel. Still no camps. Still no Nazis. Still peddling the same fabricated and alienating narrative. Her persistence is admirable at least.

 

[Val Vega]

Can you envision Hillary making ANY progress with Korea or Iran the way Trump has done?

I totally agree he's an overgrown infant when it comes to social media among certain other things, but given the current situation being what it is... I'd much rather have D in office than H.

.02

What progress has he made with them? Please enlighten us. As it stands, North Korea is hurtling itself towards a fully-functional nuclear program. Trump has only managed to undermine the progress that was made with Iran. And in the meantime he has utterly destroyed any soft power that the USA had.