Line between being selfish/practising basic rights

[sahi]

So yeah.....been meaning to post this for a while now. Might be a bit of a long one so bare with me, lol.
Basically I wanted the forum's view on what the line is between a person (a girl in this case) being selfish & practising their basic rights.
Up until around a year ago I would meet up with this older girl from time to time & sometimes we'd fool around. But during that time I really struggled to figure her out, know what to say & know if I was in the right or not regarding certain things.
And so that brings me to the subject of this thread. At times I got really fustrated when we fooled around. Because I felt like we would get to a certain point & then she'd basically get up & start putting her clothes back on. I once texted her about this after a meet-up when a situation like that occured. I now know that the way I said things was really jerky & it upseted her. I said stuff like "past few times we've met have been like torture for me. It's not a very nice feeling when us guys get intimate with a girl, only for things to end when they've barely even begun". And then continued by saying other wrong things like "especially when the guy has heard that the girl has had regular relations with another guy. Makes the guy think why doesn't she do the same with me? What have I done wrong?"
I later apologised to her for this & told her how ebarrased I was of my behaviour.

But looking back on those meet-ups with her I started to think that maybe I was in the right, but only the way I said it was wrong. Because I do think that maybe she did act selfishly at times. She never really seemed to care if I was having fun. It always seemed like it was whatever she wanted to do. Like for e.g. one time she took off her top when we were fooling around but said she didn't want me taking off my pants. Another time we had fooled around at hers & I said I brought condoms (I know, I know, mood killer!) & she said she didn't have a bed at hers. So I suggested we do it on the floor. She then told me to lie down on the floor & demonstrate how that would go (something like that anyway, lol). And when I did she was like nah, lets get you to the train station.
As well as those examples she was just really diffcult. Constantly changing her mind, blowing from hot to cold. Total mind-fuck.
But let me make something clear. I'm not writing this as a rant or feeling sorry for myself. I made this thread because I wanted the forum's view on what the line is between a girl being selfish & just thinking of herself & someone who is just practising her basic rights.
Because if I'm being totally honest I'm a late blomer & don't have much experience in these matters so am really not sure about this one.

 

[Mila_]

Ugh man.. just ugh.

 

[Teagan]

There is no line between any human practicing their rights and being selfish. We always have our rights. We always can practice them. At all times and in any situation.The decisions we make though can be selfish or not and that is up to the individual. Some are more selfish than others of course.

Really though it sounds like the girl just really did not want to have sex with you or wanted to wait. And it seems like the more you got frustrated the more you were willing to make your first time together pretty terrible (THE FLOOR!) which if she was entertaining sleeping with you would be a bad thing to say. If she's the type of girl who wants to wait you suggesting the very unspecial floor is gonna make her feel unspecial too. Some girls need time before taking that step and when you continually push boundaries and put pressure on her she's gonna back the fuck off and either break it off completely or make you wait even longer. For instance she gives you topless and you wanna push it further and be pantsless. Just be happy with what you get when a girl is ready to give it. Pressure and pushing is gonna get you no where near where you wanna be. (And it works both ways, girls should respect a mans decisions too.) And just cause she was with someone else is no grounds for you to bring up to her, throw in her face, or try to use to your advantage. You were way wrong to bring that up ever to her in that way.

Of course she also could have just not wanted to fuck you like I said. For whatever reason she does have that choice. Im just speaking as a woman who makes guys wait before they get any where near sleeping with me.

 

[SexySteph]

I'm going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're NOT a total douchebag but...

In sexual interactions it's always up to the person that wants to do the LEAST what's going to happen. In this scenario it sounds like she doesn't want to go as far as you do and that means it's up to her.

Taking off her shirt =/= taking off your pants. It's been awhile since I've fooled around but when the guys pants are off it's a lot easier for him to try to slip it in than it is when pants are on and tits are out. Again, it's been awhile and I might have no idea how intimacy works these days.

Sex with other people =/= another person's right to sex. "Sarah fucked Josh but whenever we hook up she ends things at handjobs" Well, that's Sarah's decision. Maybe she doesn't want to have sex with you and that's not something she should feel guilty about.

Honestly, it sounds to me like she enjoys messing around with you but she's not ready/doesn't want to have sex and every time you push the issue she "blows cold" as you said, because you're not taking a hint. "I don't have a bed here" was her non-confrontational way of saying "no I don't want to" (a phrase that guys don't react well to).

I think it's incredibly insulting that you are under the impression that someone can cross the line between "practicing basic rights" and "being selfish" when it comes to sexual encounters.

 

[sahi]

Wow, just wow! Really wasn't expecting a backlash like that. I did explain two very important points. The first being that I did apologise to her & tell her how embarrased I was of what I said. Secondly at the end I did mention that I'm a late blomer & don't have much experience in these situations.
I guess what I expected was people to offer friendley advice instead of having thoughts of me being a douchebag.
Having said that I thank those who have now made it clear to me that there is no line. Basic rights are basic rights. End of. As the old saying goes.....you live & learn.

 

[dilligaf0]

I'm not saying this is the case because I don't know either of you. I have dated a couple of women that were the same as this woman seems to be, including the "other partner" part.
Eventually I found out they were sexually abused when they were young (by relatives) and this contributed to their hesitation to go beyond a certain point. If you don't know all of her past (and don't ask ) you don't know why. She'll tell you if / when she wants to.
Until then either deal with it or move on.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Selfish isn't the word you're looking for. "Indecisive", maybe? It also sounds like there's a communication barrier.

The important thing to keep in mind at all times is that sex with another person isn't something you're entitled to. Ever. It doesn't matter if she sleeps with other guys, it doesn't matter if she's sending mixed signals, or even if she's actively trying to lead you on. Consent is something you can't be "selfish" with. Nobody should ever feel like they have to consent to sex when they don't want to. The moment they feel that way, it ceases to be consent and becomes coercion. So don't be that guy who pressures someone into sex when they don't want it, yo (not that you are that guy or were ever going to be that guy. It's just an important thing to be weary of , whoever you are).

It's impossible for any of us to tell you "hey, she's being a bit shitty by leading you on" because we don't have the facts, just one side of the story that may or may not be omitting facts, may or may not be coloured by raging libido and chronic blue balls, and only takes in to account one person's feelings on the matter when there are two people involved. So talk to her, sir. Find out exactly what she wants out of the relationship and see if it syncs with what you want. If it doesn't, then you have a decision to make about whether or not you want it to continue.

 

[JoleneBrody]

Wow, just wow! Really wasn't expecting a backlash like that.

 

[Mila_]

Part 3.7 OP

http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Gentleman

When you have to reach for wikihow to educate a grown up

 

[Vera]

mynameisbob beat me to it, but yeah, NO ONE has a "right" to sex, and it is not selfish for someone to say no if they are not ready. You are not entitled to the use of another person's body. I don't have time to go into a diatribe, but it sounds like you need to have an adult conversation with her.

 

[Teagan]

Honey that's not backlash. It's education on the other side of what a girl may be thinking or feeling if she's one to wait. You said yourself you dont have much experience and that is completely fine so take the advice for what it is and dont just assume it's people being harsh and brush it off. I can only go on what you said and the instances you described I get to you look like her being back and forth but to me could be her waiting and you pressuring. (Again the example of her giving you boobs and you wanting to push it even further.) Pushing in any way does not build trust and comfort which this girl may have been looking for and you failed to provide. I also get you apologized and that's admirable to do when you are in the wrong but you also then questioned that saying maybe you were in the right, but you werent. What I offered was friendly advice for the next girl you're seeing if she wants to wait. Ignore it if you want but that's only not gonna get you laid by a lot of girls.

 

[Sevrin]

Worst.Dear.Penthouse.Ever.

 

[sahi]

Let me just make something clear.....I do not in any way shape or form think that I have a right to sex or am entitled to the use of anyone's body. I agree however that I may have inadvertently been pushy & that is something that I'll definately be careful not to do in the future.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

The only advice I can offer is to talk to her about it. Seeking advice for this kind of thing online is usually a bad idea. And tbh, this is the last place on the internet that you'd want to ask for this advice, probably figured that out. Surprised you got a few helpful responses and it wasn't just all ugh posts.

 

[dilligaf0]

Let me just make something clear.....I do not in any way shape or form think that I have a right to sex or am entitled to the use of anyone's body. I agree however that I may have inadvertently been pushy & that is something that I'll definately be careful not to do in the future.

May I suggest you just be her friend, forget any relationship with her. Then what you have will be honest.

 

[BritneySiren]

I think a girl has a right to stop things when it gets to a point that she's not comfortable just as a guy has that same right. No one is obligated to do anything. If you didn't like what was happening or her limits because you have no idea why she wouldn't want to do certain things unless you talked to her about it.

If fooling around and going all the way is a deal breaker for you... I would've just let that be known and not done it again. Just as you want what you want and that's fine that you want that but... to feel as though you're entitled to sex is silly.

but if it were me and I were done this way (which I have been actually) Come to think about it... I didn't take it personally or cry about it as I know that I can take care of myself/ most situations like these have never been just about sex/ I'm a chick and it's not that hard to get sex as well so I dunno...

I guess my point is if you're not getting what you want with someone it might be time to find someone else who meets your needs.

 

[yummybrownfox]

"especially when the guy has heard that the girl has had regular relations with another guy. Makes the guy think why doesn't she do the same with me?"

You heard that she had "relations" with some other guy? You're getting yourself worked up over a rumor. Some people (immature people, that is) actually do lie about that stuff sometimes. And even if she did go further with some other guy, that's her and his business. There is no rule stating that if you give Tony a blowjob on the first date, that you have to "make it fair" and suck Dave's dick on the first date too. LOL. She's probably not yet at that comfort level with you that she was with this other guy.

And I gotta tell you...if some guy said to me "I heard that you and Tony hooked up, so why won't you do that with me?," I'd be disgusted. That's nice that you apologized and all, but don't expect the panties to drop (or your dick to be getting licked) just because you said sorry.

 

[JickyJuly]

Sex doesn't require negotiations. If you're negotiating, you're already in the wrong. Do you like not have a hand or something? Did I miss the part where your hands were blown off saving a million babies and 50 puppies so every woman is now indebted to your cock?

 

[yummybrownfox]

LOL at the "bad troll attempt" ratings (for us ladies trying to help this dude out). Gotta love it.

 

[sahi]

Just to mention something.....this isn't an ongoing thing. Was asking this question for future reference. As I said in my first post the last I saw of her was about a year ago. When we met up then she explained to me that she isn't interested in casual stuff anymore. She wants to find a guy who is ready for marriage/having a family. I said to her that's fair enough, no worries. I do want to date girls/have a relationship (I'm not just into the sex part). But I'm not ready for the whole nine yards just yet. That's why I kept pursuing the casual stuff with her. Because I did ask her in the past if she wanted to make things official/be in a relationship. But she told me that I'm not the kinda guy she's looking for.
To be honest I have tried meeting up with her couple times since. Thought maybe she may have changed her mind. Because at the end of the day some girls do tend to do that & also they don't often make the first move. So I thought maybe she may have changed her mind but doesn't want to make the first move. Maybe I still have a lot to learn, I dunno, lol.

 

[gingerhobbit]

OP, just out of curiosity, how old are you ? Because you sound very...young.

Also this part...

She then told me to lie down on the floor & demonstrate how that would go (something like that anyway, lol). And when I did she was like nah, lets get you to the train station.

...makes me think she's just mocking you in a not-affectionate way. And when a woman mocks you like that, it means she doesn't respect you enough to ever fuck you. Given some of the things that apparently have come out of your mouth, I don't blame her.

Btw, you say "I'm sorry, baby" when you forget to stop at the store like she asked, or when she's just trying to vent and you get all manly and try to fix the problem, instead of simply listening. In cases like that, you can expect to be forgiven -- eventually.

But there are some lines that just can't be un-crossed. She's never going to see you the same way again, and as far as she's concerned, you can shove that sorry right up your ass. Telling her you 'hear' she fucks other guys but not you is right on the edge of calling her a whore...and that's one of those lines.

My advice: Back off from this woman (and any other for a while), grow up a little, and then when you've matured some, try to ease back into the game.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

But during that time I really struggled to figure her out, know what to say & know if I was in the right or not regarding certain things...At times I got really fustrated when we fooled around. Because I felt like we would get to a certain point & then she'd basically get up & start putting her clothes back on.

It is good you realize that you must figure this situation out. And your frustration is understandable; I am sure most men have felt it. But the girl you describe in this last line...there is no type of woman I would rather be playing with than this one.

I once texted her about this after a meet-up when a situation like that occured. I now know that the way I said things was really jerky & it upseted her. I said stuff like "past few times we've met have been like torture for me. It's not a very nice feeling when us guys get intimate with a girl, only for things to end when they've barely even begun".

Personally, I think a better move here would have been to thank her for the tease. Then I probably would have thanked her for stopping when she did, because she was driving me up the wall. From there I would have moved on to letting her know that she was one of a kind. Any frustration I felt would have been carefully hidden (and hopefully forgotten) behind a veil of amused appreciation.

And then continued by saying other wrong things like "especially when the guy has heard that the girl has had regular relations with another guy. Makes the guy think why doesn't she do the same with me? What have I done wrong?"

Yes, you must indeed have an eye on the competition. Finding out what they did right/wrong can be invaluable. But you must approach this with the analytical side of your brain. If you allow your emotions to get involved in this, and you are tempted to say things like you just shared, you must remind yourself to grow up. Much easier said than done.

This was a huge mistake imo, but it sounds like you realize this.

She then told me to lie down on the floor & demonstrate how that would go (something like that anyway, lol). And when I did she was like nah, lets get you to the train station.

You have just single-handedly embarrassed every man on the planet. If you are hoping to get to a point where this woman is down on the floor begging for you to f*ck her, letting yourself get manipulated like this is probably not going to get you there. You reek of desperation here.

If you did get laid here, you would have been a pity f*ck. Just me, but I would rather do without.

As well as those examples she was just really diffcult. Constantly changing her mind, blowing from hot to cold. Total mind-fuck.

Sounds like she may have been selfish, difficult, maybe not worth the trouble, and yes, a mind-f*ck. But consider this: our capacity to engage in advanced mind-f*ckery is one of the main things that distinguishes us from the rest of the primates. Without it, we would be nothing more than glorified bonobos.

While she is f*cking with your mind, carefully study her so that you can return the favor. Makes the game a lot more fun.

I made this thread because I wanted the forum's view on what the line is between a girl being selfish & just thinking of herself & someone who is just practising her basic rights.

There is no line between the two, because being selfish and thinking of herself IS one of her basic rights (assuming no law-breaking or gross immorality is involved).

Because if I'm being totally honest I'm a late blomer & don't have much experience in these matters so am really not sure about this one.

Yah. Get a game. Then get to work on improving it.

This is all based on my own trial and error, and the limited info you shared. I may be way off here, or I may have hit the nail right on the head, idk. Hope I didn't offend, but if I did, please let me know, as I simply thrive on negative attention (I once went two weeks with no food or water, surviving only on a single angry scowl that was cast in my direction).

P.S. For when you are dealing with these types in the future: jerk off before you go to meet them, and keep in mind that you can jerk off after they leave if you need to. Have fun.

 

[VallieBeuys]

It's already been said but it's worth repeating because in 2015 people still don't get it.....

Someone's sexual history does not suddenly mean that they don't have the right to remove their consent for current/future sexual encounters. That's like assuming that because someone ate tacos that one time that they will gladly eat tacos for every meal for eternity without complaint. And then getting angry with them when you serve them tacos that they don't want without asking if they would prefer something else first.

I love me some tacos, but I still have the right to refuse tacos whenever I don't want to put them in my mouth.

Communication is key. And damn, if this girl makes you feel bad then just stop trying to fuck her! Why would you want to be with someone who doesn't seem keen on you? That's just a waste of everyones' time. Find someone who is ENTHUSIASTICALLY into you! And then get clear consent before doing the deed.

 

[sahi]

OP, just out of curiosity, how old are you ? Because you sound very...young.

I'm actually 33. Like I said I'm a late blomer.
And those of you thinking that I sound like a virgin, I'm not, lol. I lost my v card when I was 23.

 

[gingerhobbit]

I'm actually 33.

I...have no words.

 

[sahi]

It's already been said but it's worth repeating because in 2015 people still don't get it.....

Someone's sexual history does not suddenly mean that they don't have the right to remove their consent for current/future sexual encounters. That's like assuming that because someone ate tacos that one time that they will gladly eat tacos for every meal for eternity without complaint. And then getting angry with them when you serve them tacos that they don't want without asking if they would prefer something else first.

I love me some tacos, but I still have the right to refuse tacos whenever I don't want to put them in my mouth.

Believe me I know. A few other's have also mentioned this in this thread. It was totally the wrong thing for me to say. Not long after I sent the text I realised it was none of my business who she's done what with in the past. That was then & this is now. And that was that guy & this is me. Doesn't mean she has to do the same with me.

 

[Mila_]

OP maybe I read you wrong and you are just terribly confused. Perhaps you are very young and your dad didn't talk to you much about this so all the info you got came from high school sex ed classes. Can't blame you.
Will try to give you a hand:

1) Women and men are completely different. Especially when it comes to sexual wants/needs/urges. I want to make this clear because if you believe that we are the same thing, if our sexualities are the same, then the only reason why a woman could reject your advances is because she doesn't like you. After all, a guy would nail almost any girl he meets. The only criteria for selection is whether or not he likes her enough to go through with it. Think about it from the point of view of evolution: a pregnancy has no biological cost for men, so spreading the seed is cheap and the best strategy to pass down your genes. Women are NOT wired this way. We are less motivated to have sex, we approach it much more carefully and when we see a guy we are looking for safety more than for someone to do the old in-out-in-out with. A girl can find you really attractive and still reject your sexual advances because she doesn't feel safe around you. And by "safe" I don't mean that she might think you are an axe murderer, although of course that is off-putting, I mean she needs to feel like you are a strong guy who could take care of her. If we go back to the biological pov, a pregnancy for a woman is costly, she will be forced to carry a baby inside her, consume resources for 9 months, and be vulnerable and defenseless while pregnant. So for women the most sound strategy was always to find the right man that will take care of her after the deed is done so she can pass down her genes and not die in the process. This makes us incredibly different. Men pursue sex aggressively and women are more naturally inclined to modesty (it isn't simply a matter of culture) Our social structures aren't the same as they used to be, but our bodies are wired the same way, so before a woman has sex with you she needs to feel safe around you. So naturally you can see how you pushing her in this way makes you look weak, not in control of the situation, and more unattractive to her by the minute. Justjoinedtopost does the opposite: he doesn't confront her, he doesn't push her, he simply enjoys playing with her, and this makes all the difference.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Believe me I know. A few other's have also mentioned this in this thread. It was totally the wrong thing for me to say. Not long after I sent the text I realised it was none of my business who she's done what with in the past. That was then & this is now. And that was that guy & this is me. Doesn't mean she has to do the same with me.

Yes this shit can be incredibly hard to control sometimes, even after you know better. Have a bad day, you get caught by surprise, next thing you know...

 

[PunkInDrublic]

LOL at the "bad troll attempt" ratings (for us ladies trying to help this dude out). Gotta love it.

lol huh? Well, I fail to see the humor and I only gave turds to what I felt were shit/not helpful posts. You want to know what I do find funny? Hilarious even? Miserable and cowardly old women that talk shit about others behind their backs.
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?197796-Camgirls-Take-Events!/page2
Needless to say, I find you hilarious.

 

[Teagan]

I doubt the OP was coming from a place of "well she opened her legs for him so she auto should for me too." It was probably more of a "well she did with him so what am I doing wrong she wont with me?" And plain and simply we will never know the answer. It could be 1,000 things. We can only speculate. I also dont think it's from a place of asking about rights vs selfishness in a malicious way either. I think he's just curious of others opinions of is she was being selfish and using him or just choosing to not have sex. Again we will never know the answer and can only speculate someone elses intentions. Just trying to play devils advocate and no need to lynch the OP and make assumptions here.

To me it seems like traditional dating I do. You get to know each other slowly and along with that comes slowly getting sexual. You kiss and it stops there. When you're ready to go further you can rub boobs and it stops there. And so on. If a guy tries to push my limits it breaks my trust with him and either the relationship is gonna be reset or ended by me. If you keep doing it and never seem satisfied with what I am giving you then i'm gonna end it right quick cause obviously we are not a good match. Not only does putting pressure on me make me uncomfy it also doesnt build trust with me, doesnt make me feel safe or secure, loved and cared for, respected, etc and why would I waste time with someone whos goal seems to just be to get in to my pants and acts out when he doesnt get his way when HE'S ready and lacks the thinking to realize I am NOT yet.

There is also a lot of other reasons I have stopped sexy times. Maybe he's bad at it. Maybe he said or did something very unsexy in my eyes. Maybe he's a bad kisser. Fuck maybe I ate something that didnt agree with me and I wanna go burp alone in privacy. Maybe he's said and did some things Im not sure I can get past. (I stopped a date before cause the guy legit said he didnt believe in evolution.) Who knows but what any of this girl is thinking we can never know. I will say stop contacting her. She wants marriage and a family and not with you so dont waste your time any further.