Ferguson shooting grand jury verdict

[bawksy]

So I've been watching the announcement live (spoiler alert: the jury chose not to indict officer Wilson), and it's interesting observing how people behave. The county prosecutor is, for the first time, going over in detail all of the evidence that was presented to the grand jury. It's quite interesting, because the whole story has never been released to the public before. Hearing the evidence presented this way, it's pretty clear (in my opinion) that there was not enough evidence to support charges against the officer. I'm a bit disappointed, because I fucking hate cops, and I hate that they too often shoot first and ask questions later. But after months of misinformation from false witnesses and the media, when I hear the facts laid out as they are, the decision of the grand jury seems reasonable.

As I write this, the county prosecutor is still reviewing the evidence. Rather than listen, many (most) of the people who have gathered in Ferguson are screaming and shouting and crying and not listening at all to what is being said. All they care about is that there won't be charges against the officer. They don't even care why. Without having all the evidence, these people had made up their mind that they wanted this officer brought to trial. It makes me sad that people can be so willfully ignorant, so resistant to hear to evidence, so dedicated to believing only what they want to believe.

It's worth noting that a grand jury does not decide guilt or innocence. It only decides whether or not there is enough evidence to merit a trial. The fact that the grand jury has chosen not to indict means that there is very little chance a jury would have convicted the officer.

 

[bawksy]

It's now Q&A time. One reporter just asked the prosecutor whether or not any of the witnesses who supported the officer's story were black. The answer was "yes", there were several black witnesses who supported the officer's story.

 

[Shaun__]

I hope this this helps force cops to wear body cameras in the future. It is obscene that a person whose job sometimes involves killing other people does not have a camera recording all day to show an unbiased factual record of events.

 

[Bocefish]

I was just thinking that Obama and Holder better come out with a statement supporting the grand Jury decision and a news byte just said Obama will make a statement at 10pm ET. They should not have gotten involved in the first place, but it shows their own racism along with not so sharp Sharpton.

:twocents-02cents:

 

[bawksy]

Obama is smart enough to not say anything that would piss off Obama voters, so he would never imply he agrees with the grand jury decision. He'll probably just encourage people to stay nonviolent.

 

[bawksy]

A cop car near the protests just got its windows smashed. I wish these animals (violent protesters, not to imply all black people) would follow the advice of wise men like MLK Jr. and Gandhi and make their political statements without violence.

 

[Bocefish]

Live streaming: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/bassemmasri/pop-out

 

[JickyJuly]

Engaging Bawksy in a talk about race isn't on my to do list even on my most bored of days. So, I'll skip over the race issue entirely. The community of Ferguson was clearly and mostly peaceably asking for a trial. Police are civil servants. If a community cannot ask that a civil servant's actions be at least tried publicly, there is a MAJOR problem.

A cop car near the protests just got its windows smashed. I wish these animals (violent protesters, not to imply all black people) would follow the advice of wise men like MLK Jr. and Gandhi and make their political statements without violence.

When peaceful protests do not work, and entire groups of people are made to feel as though their lives and the lives are their children are less than, what do they really have left to lose? Dr. King and Gandhi were strong men to keep on keepin' on and turn the other cheek so often, but things didn't end well for them, eh? You can't expect people to smile, keep their head down and accept bullshit over and over.

 

[bawksy]

Ignoring the personal jab...

I understand that people want change. And I agree that incidents of police violence are far too frequent in the USA. But when has putting a brick through a cop car window ever changed anything? There has to be a better way.

 

[bawksy]

Christ. The police in Ferguson are launching tear gas canisters right past the heads of CNN reporters.

I just heard a F-bomb on live TV. "Hey man let's get the fuck out of here!"

 

[bawksy]

Tear gas landed about 10 feet from these reporters.

This next picture was taken (of the same scene) about 8 seconds later.

 

[Felicity]

An entire cop car was engulfed in flames by the protesters... woah :shock:

 

[Bocefish]

At least the looters have their priorities straight... so far they've looted a beauty supply parlor, a cell phone dealership and a liquor store.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I do want to know what idiot decide to hold a press conference at 8:30 PM. The grand jury has spent 25+ days on this case, one more day won't make a difference. sequester them and announce it at 8 AM. At 8 AM most of the trouble makers are sleeping and you don't need flashlights and fires of building and cars to figure out what is going on. Such stupidity is almost criminal.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

 

[JickyJuly]

I do want to know what idiot decide to hold a press conference at 8:30 PM. The grand jury has spent 25+ days on this case, one more day won't make a difference. sequester them and announce it at 8 AM. At 8 AM most of the trouble makers are sleeping and you don't need flashlights and fires of building and cars to figure out what is going on. Such stupidity is almost criminal.

The kind of idiot that wants to point at the violence and claim it validates their choice not to indict, somehow. I hope I'm wrong there, but it seems pretty impossible that the possibility of violence wasn't thoroughly expected?

 

[Bocefish]

They did it this way mainly because they wanted all the kids home from school and safely inside in case the morons do what they're doing now.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

They did it this way mainly because they wanted all the kids home from school and safely inside in case the morons do what they're doing now.

I pretty sure that some of the kids are out right now on the streets, although by all accounts 90% of the assholes on the street don't live with 100 miles of Ferguson.
Still that doesn't make a lot sense, if the announced it at 8 or 9 am that gives them 5 or 6 hours to get the situation under control which is a hell of a lot easier during the day than a night.
Over the last 50 years the major damage that has come from riots has been a night.

 

[JoleneBrody]

It just breaks my heart that Mike Browns family's plea for NO violence was completely ignored. I can't imagine how they must be feeling right now.

 

[camstory]

I do want to know what idiot decide to hold a press conference at 8:30 PM. The grand jury has spent 25+ days on this case, one more day won't make a difference. sequester them and announce it at 8 AM. At 8 AM most of the trouble makers are sleeping and you don't need flashlights and fires of building and cars to figure out what is going on. Such stupidity is almost criminal.

This was a huge error, and goes against SOP of every police force I have ever been familiar with. As long as there is no urgency police always wait till daylight to do anything that could involve violence, or flight - why warrants are almost always served right after dawn, or 9-9:30 AM when ppl are already off to work and kids are off to school. It is such a mistake, one has to wonder if it might not have been purposeful. Hard to figure how any group of knowledgeable ppl would let it happen otherwise.

 

[camstory]

According to a New York Times report, "Asked about the timing, Mr. Nixon said it had been the choice of Mr. McCulloch." [Governor of Missouri Jay Nixon / County prosecutor, Robert P. McCulloch]
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/us/fe ... .html?_r=0

 

[Rose]

I hope this this helps force cops to wear body cameras in the future. It is obscene that a person whose job sometimes involves killing other people does not have a camera recording all day to show an unbiased factual record of events.

This doesn't seem that difficult to me. Get the cheapest, most durable camera you can find, make them strap it to their body and wear it from clock in to clock out. At the very least they could wear a wire or something, even a dinky little tape recorder. That way we could see and hear what the cop's actions were. They have bullet proof vests, why not security cameras?

Yea, there's some moral thoughts and what not on why we'd need personal security cameras, but I'm ignoring that part.

 

[Bocefish]

What gets me is that Obama was clearly disappointed the officer wasn't indicted during his speech last night and focused on the injustice of it all nation wide... despite the Grand Jury dissecting 70 hours of testimony from 60 eye witnesses and all the physical evidence that supported the officer's account of the shooting. Michael brown was 6'4" 292 pound thug. I'd like to see what Obama, Sharpton or Holder would do if they were in the officer's situation. Apparently, they believe facts shouldn't get in the way of a good race riot. Now Holder is bragging that his investigation is still ongoing and it should be interesting what his team comes up given the same evidence.

 

[schlmoe]

I hope this this helps force cops to wear body cameras in the future. It is obscene that a person whose job sometimes involves killing other people does not have a camera recording all day to show an unbiased factual record of events.

This doesn't seem that difficult to me. Get the cheapest, most durable camera you can find, make them strap it to their body and wear it from clock in to clock out. At the very least they could wear a wire or something, even a dinky little tape recorder. That way we could see and hear what the cop's actions were. They have bullet proof vests, why not security cameras?

Yea, there's some moral thoughts and what not on why we'd need personal security cameras, but I'm ignoring that part.

Well, here's the thing: it's not as simple as sending the Police Chief's secretary down to Walmart and buying cameras and handing them out. After you (City/County/etc) get the funding approved; the bid process AND the procurement process completed; the training complete; you're not done. The list I just gave has a lot of road blocks, but it's not insurmountable (and should be streamlined).

And like I mentioned, you're not done. We're going to need some kind of "Miranda" for video taping of citizens. Whether its a giant "YOU ARE BEING RECORDED" decal on every police cruiser or a initial statement from the police on the first encounter, it need to happen. Yes, I know if "the first encounter" is chasing a suspect on foot, the verbal "Video Miranda" won't be practical. But I would bet my life that the giant decal I mentioned would eliminate a great majority of bad behavior on both the police AND the citizen. :twocents-02cents:

Not done yet. Every second of recorded video is potential evidence. Every second. So who's going to be in charge of storage? The chain of custody must be maintained. The evidence (or potential evidence) must be stored and maintained so there is no chance of it being tainted. Who is going to be this impartial custodian? If the chain of custody is not maintained, it will be worthless as evidence. Now I have known and encountered many police who are fine individuals. But I have also encountered many who could not manage a key chain, much less a custody chain.

Then we're going to need cameras that can't be manipulated/turned off/etc by the wearer. If there isn't some sort of mechanism that prevents the wearer from doing this, then I guarantee that there be tons of "Watergate Tapes" lapses. I'd like to see some sort of GPS enabled camera that did not keep any local recordings, but instead beamed them to a satellite, then transmitted to some video vault separate from the police department (maybe DA's Office?). And ideally it would have some sort of transponder that would notify dispatchers/duty sgt if it was turned off or malfunctioned.

Police cameras? All for it. Should we insist on it? You bet! Just wanted to emphasize that it needs to be implemented the "right way". And it won't happen tomorrow, either.

 

[mynameisbob84]

Mike Brown's not the issue. He's the tip of the iceberg. The latest in a long line of unarmed black men (and boys) to be killed by police (or overzealous idiot citizens) when it absolutely wasn't necessary. James Eagan Holmes killed twelve people and injured 70 others when he opened fire in a cinema. He was escorted into a police car and put on trial. Jarod Lee Loughner shot 19 people, was placed into a police car, and faced trial. Timothy McVeigh blew up a truck in Oklahoma killing 168 people in the process. He was bundled in to the back of a police van and sent to trial. Mike Brown stole some candy and was shot 10 times by police. There's no trial for Mike Brown because he's dead. He was also black. Which is something that Holmes, Loughner and McVeigh weren't. He was black like Trayvon Martin was (shot dead over a pack of Skittles), like John Crawford was (dead), like Eric Garner was (dead), like hundreds upon hundreds of other young black people were, when they were shot dead by police who deemed that the only possible way to subdue them and bring them to justice for their crimes (be it shoplifting, selling drugs on street corners, or merely being suspected of criminal activity) was to shoot them until they stopped breathing.

That's a problem, ya know? What is it about black children that the police find so fucking terrifying? What is it about the lives of white mass murderers that cause police to go the extra mile to see that they live long enough to see trial? Why aren't the lives of black kids deemed worthy of that effort? Is an unarmed black kid truly more dangerous than a white guy with a gun or a bomb?

The disregard for the livelihood of black people in certain parts of America is apparently endemic. Of course Mike Brown shouldn't have been stealing candy. Of course he shouldn't have physically provoked a police officer. But for Robert McCulloch to go on national television and tell the people of Ferguson that Mike Brown got what he deserved, that black witnesses are unreliable, that social media is to blame for race-related societal ills, that there is absolutely not a race problem within the Ferguson police department, belies a staggering lack of understanding of the situation at hand, and suggests a disdain for a black community that's already been through enough this year.

Riots, while disappointing and ultimately stupid, are hardly surprising.

 

[Bocefish]

Mike Brown's not the issue. He's the tip of the iceberg. The latest in a long line of unarmed black men (and boys) to be killed by police (or overzealous idiot citizens) when it absolutely wasn't necessary. James Eagan Holmes killed twelve people and injured 70 others when he opened fire in a cinema. He was escorted into a police car and put on trial. Jarod Lee Loughner shot 19 people, was placed into a police car, and faced trial. Timothy McVeigh blew up a truck in Oklahoma killing 168 people in the process. He was bundled in to the back of a police van and sent to trial. Mike Brown stole some candy and was shot 10 times by police. There's no trial for Mike Brown because he's dead. He was also black. Which is something that Holmes, Loughner and McVeigh weren't. He was black like Trayvon Martin was (shot dead over a pack of Skittles), like John Crawford was (dead), like Eric Garner was (dead), like hundreds upon hundreds of other young black people were, when they were shot dead by police who deemed that the only possible way to subdue them and bring them to justice for their crimes (be it shoplifting, selling drugs on street corners, or merely being suspected of criminal activity) was to shoot them until they stopped breathing.

That's a problem, ya know? What is it about black children that the police find so fucking terrifying? What is it about the lives of white mass murderers that cause police to go the extra mile to see that they live long enough to see trial? Why aren't the lives of black kids deemed worthy of that effort? Is an unarmed black kid truly more dangerous than a white guy with a gun or a bomb?

The disregard for the livelihood of black people in certain parts of America is apparently endemic. Of course Mike Brown shouldn't have been stealing candy. Of course he shouldn't have physically provoked a police officer. But for Robert McCulloch to go on national television and tell the people of Ferguson that Mike Brown got what he deserved, that black witnesses are unreliable, that social media is to blame for race-related societal ills, that there is absolutely not a race problem within the Ferguson police department, belies a staggering lack of understanding of the situation at hand, and suggests a disdain for a black community that's already been through enough this year.

Riots, while disappointing and ultimately stupid, are hardly surprising.

When you get the facts straight and can understand the difference between surrendering to law enforcement and using lawful lethal force in self-defense, you might better understand why each of those events turned out the way they did.

 

[Bocefish]

But for Robert McCulloch to go on national television and tell the people of Ferguson that Mike Brown got what he deserved, that black witnesses are unreliable, that social media is to blame for race-related societal ills, that there is absolutely not a race problem within the Ferguson police department, belies a staggering lack of understanding of the situation at hand, and suggests a disdain for a black community that's already been through enough this year.

I'll admit to not following the case all that closely, but could you provide the media clip where he says these things?

Mike Brown stole some candy and was shot 10 times by police.

Please get your FACTS straight if you're going to support racist claims. Michael Brown was caught on film just prior to assaulting the police officer doing a strong arm robbery assaulting a petite woman in the process. The so-called unarmed innocent teenager was a 6'4" 292 pound thug high on drugs according to autopsy.

 

[Teagan]

Mike Brown's not the issue. He's the tip of the iceberg. The latest in a long line of unarmed black men (and boys) to be killed by police (or overzealous idiot citizens) when it absolutely wasn't necessary. James Eagan Holmes killed twelve people and injured 70 others when he opened fire in a cinema. He was escorted into a police car and put on trial. Jarod Lee Loughner shot 19 people, was placed into a police car, and faced trial. Timothy McVeigh blew up a truck in Oklahoma killing 168 people in the process. He was bundled in to the back of a police van and sent to trial. Mike Brown stole some candy and was shot 10 times by police. There's no trial for Mike Brown because he's dead. He was also black. Which is something that Holmes, Loughner and McVeigh weren't. He was black like Trayvon Martin was (shot dead over a pack of Skittles), like John Crawford was (dead), like Eric Garner was (dead), like hundreds upon hundreds of other young black people were, when they were shot dead by police who deemed that the only possible way to subdue them and bring them to justice for their crimes (be it shoplifting, selling drugs on street corners, or merely being suspected of criminal activity) was to shoot them until they stopped breathing.

That's a problem, ya know? What is it about black children that the police find so fucking terrifying? What is it about the lives of white mass murderers that cause police to go the extra mile to see that they live long enough to see trial? Why aren't the lives of black kids deemed worthy of that effort? Is an unarmed black kid truly more dangerous than a white guy with a gun or a bomb?

The disregard for the livelihood of black people in certain parts of America is apparently endemic. Of course Mike Brown shouldn't have been stealing candy. Of course he shouldn't have physically provoked a police officer. But for Robert McCulloch to go on national television and tell the people of Ferguson that Mike Brown got what he deserved, that black witnesses are unreliable, that social media is to blame for race-related societal ills, that there is absolutely not a race problem within the Ferguson police department, belies a staggering lack of understanding of the situation at hand, and suggests a disdain for a black community that's already been through enough this year.

Riots, while disappointing and ultimately stupid, are hardly surprising.

When you get the facts straight and can understand the difference between surrendering to law enforcement and using lawful lethal force in self-defense, you might better understand why each of those events turned out the way they did.

This ^

There is a difference and it's not a matter of race. It's a matter of how about you don't run at a cop who thinks you may be armed and/or dangerous. Attack a cop and you can expect to get shot. Period. Attack someone with a gun at all and you should expect to get shot. I don't care what color you are. That cop does not know you, does not know your intent, does not know what you may have on you, so they have got to expect the worst of people when they are attacked and act accordingly. I know that is not always the case but in this instance it's true.

Trayvon attacked someone with a gun and he got shot for it. James Holmes shot a bunch of people and as tragic as that was and as mentally messed up as he was at the time he did not attack anyone with a gun so he was captured. McVeigh as well. Had either of them presented a danger to the cops or someone who was armed they would have suffered the same fate. That's why some get to go to trial, and why some do not. It's not about race or thinking black people are more dangerous somehow, it's about having common sense to not attack someone who can kill you. Or how about you just don't attack people. You don't get to attack a cop (no matter your skin color) and then play the race card when you get shot for them protecting themselves. You can not attack anyone then play victim after the fact.

 

[eyeteach]

Michael Brown committed at least three felonious acts that day before he died; let me repeat that, three felonious acts. Robbery, assault and assault on a police officer are as much a crime in the "white" community as those acts are in the "black" community. I'm white and I can guarantee you that I know plenty of police officers that would shoot my ass if I assaulted them. This wasn't about Michael Brown? Are you serious? Brown was a thug, a gang member, and believed himself to be a badass. Folks, we live in a land of law and if you break the law you're subjected to paying a penalty. Brown never got to the point where he was held accountable for his own actions in a court of law BECAUSE of the actions he took against Officer Wilson.

 

[Red7227]

Police cameras? All for it. Should we insist on it? You bet! Just wanted to emphasize that it needs to be implemented the "right way". And it won't happen tomorrow, either.

The amount of recordings would be daunting as its a legal issue rather than just being like Army helmet cams. There are laser units attached to a lot of guns these days that are operated by trigger pressure. Adding a camera to the laser and making them mandatory on all police firearms would be more practical.