Do you believe that rape culture is real?

[HiGirlsRHot]

I think the biggest contribution to a rape culture, if there is one, is what I outlined in my earlier post -- the legal system can't help in the majority of cases. Not only does this allow rapists to take advantage of that, but it fosters frustration and a sense of injustice amongst victims, which I think contributes to the idea that there's a rape culture. If a crime is committed against you, and you can't legally get justice for it, I can understand where the idea that our culture supports rape can start to manifest. It just doesn't manifest personally, to me, because I can't think of a better solution of how to deal with it. I can't think of how to balance the lack of evidence with fairness.

I think you are right, but that is actually a function of our justice system. I don't think rape is all that different than other crimes. Most violent crimes and the vast majority of property crimes go unpunished in this country, and the US is actually one of the best countries for finding and prosecuting criminals.

The US (plus Canada and British) justice system is based on the Blackstone ratio. "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer", Now that's an easy principal to understand in the abstract, harder when you or your friend is the victim. But does explain while those who are unjustly prosecuted and/or convicted for rape get such an attention. There is no greater miscarriage of justice than the man who serves 20 or 30 years+ in jail for a crime he did not commit.

The FBI reports the clearance rate of homicides in this country is 65%. Meaning that law enforcement identified the person and arrest with the enough evidence to prosecute them. For rape, it's 40% for auto theft is only 11%. Meaning that if your car gets stolen you there is only one chance in 9, that anybody will get arrested for it. Now this for reported crimes, rapes are under-reported but so are many crimes, which would change the numbers but not hugely.

In many, probably most, cases it is not that police don't know who is likely responsible, it is that they don't have enough evidence to get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. A few years ago a friend of mine and his wife were brutally assaulted inside a movie theater. She spent several weeks in the hospital he spent 4 months. He now walks with a cane, and a limp, and suffered permanent kidney and liver damage. His wife was too traumatized to leave the house for the rest of the year. Based on the surveillance video of the theater's parking lot, the police know which gang is responsible. But they have no evidence other than my friends testimony to convict them, it is he said vs they said.

There are more aggravated assault case (meaning attacks where the victim ends up in the hospital) in this country than rape and similarly clearance rate 56%. There just isn't highly visible groups demanding justice for the victims.

 

[AudriTwo]

No, it isn't. Cis men can rape cis men, cis women can rape cis women. Rape, at its core, is sexually violating a person who has not consented or who has revoked consent.

Even vaginas can rape penises.

 

[Guy]

Even vaginas can rape penises.

You are correct.
http://news.nationalpost.com/toront...ssault-of-19-year-old-man-in-downtown-toronto
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/cierra-ross-charged-raping-man_n_3882608.html

 

[EspiKvlt]

Guy is here, our wishes have been granted lmao

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Guy is here, our wishes have been granted lmao

Spoiler: Recording of Guy's webcam

 

[Mila_]

No, it isn't. Cis men can rape cis men, cis women can rape cis women. Rape, at its core, is sexually violating a person who has not consented or who has revoked consent.

You are right in the fact that the victim can be a man, not just a woman, you are inexact though when you talk about "sexually violating" which is the main problem with this thread in general and what I was trying to point out.

My point was this: in order for something to be "rape" there must be penetration. If there isn't penetration it is not rape. So staring is not rape, complimenting you creepily on the street is not rape, leaning in to sniff your hair on the bus is not rape, commenting someone's lips on their avatar look sexy (like Lioravox complained about) is not rape or "rapey", and the 100s of things that are lumped into the "rape culture" category as "things that foster rape" in reality are so removed from actual rape it makes no sense to group them together.

Edit: vaginas cannot rape penises. Male rape is anal rape or mouth rape only. A woman can rape a man with a foreign object, though.

 

[LioraVox]

Not to make light of any harassment you may be experiencing in your area, but it sounds like there might possibly be some chaff mixed in with the wheat here.

The first two highlighted portions are not sexual assault, they are not rape. They are thought crimes.
The third highlighted portion lends itself to the disturbing notion that the first two can be inferred simply by the act of staring.

Oh?

RAPE culture...



Are we going to link RAPE with this movement or not? Let's make up our fucking minds.

I honestly don't know how else to explain to you & others, that I don't think rape culture and rape are mutually exclusive occurrences within society. I don't see them as being on the same level. Rape is horrible and Rape Culture is an annoying blip that we as people have to deal with because it's not invasive enough of people's rights or personal boundaries.

For me defining rape is - forcing someone into a physical sexual act against their will or without consent. And I define rape culture to be - the normalization of forcing sexual intent onto another person. The keywords here that do equate rape and rape culture to each other, are force and sexual intention. I also didn't claim the points you highlighted in my post to be sexual assault nor rape- you are putting that implication there yourself for whatever reason. I even said in another post that "I personally would not claim rape because a person catcalled me or brushed their hand against my boobs or ass, as I believe it devalues actual rape cases. But I wholeheartedly believe that the person who is doing those things to whatever degree is pushing their sexual advances onto me."

Maybe, it would help to view rape culture as a way of saying "society is saying these things are okay because they aren't physically invading another persons space with sexual intent.". We have words for things that do physically invade someone's space with sexual intent like sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape. Rape culture is the "umbrella" term for actions that are similar in the sexual intent department but not actually aggressive enough to be considered sexual harassment, sexual assault, or rape.

 

[Mila_]

"society is saying these things are okay because they aren't physically invading another persons space with sexual intent."

Nobody says invading your personal space "is okay", but only militant feminists consider staring at another person should be considered "sexual harassment" aka a crime.

 

[AudriTwo]

You are right in the fact that the victim can be a man, not just a woman, you are inexact though when you talk about "sexually violating" which is the main problem with this thread in general and what I was trying to point out.

My point was this: in order for something to be "rape" there must be penetration. If there isn't penetration it is not rape. So staring is not rape, complimenting you creepily on the street is not rape, leaning in to sniff your hair on the bus is not rape, commenting someone's lips on their avatar look sexy (like Lioravox complained about) is not rape or "rapey", and the 100s of things that are lumped into the "rape culture" category as "things that foster rape" in reality are so removed from actual rape it makes no sense to group them together.

Edit: vaginas cannot rape penises. Male rape is anal rape or mouth rape only. A woman can rape a man with a foreign object, though.

View attachment 69552

What about forced to penetrate? There are male victims who have been forced into having sex with someone. Example: sleeping men, male students who were raped by their teachers.
http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/hard-truth-girl-guy-rape/

 

[LioraVox]

Nobody says invading your personal space "is okay", but only militant feminists consider staring at another person should be considered "sexual harassment" aka a crime.

Did I not just clarify that in my opinion, I don't consider staring as sexual harassment? Did I actually not just say "Rape culture is the "umbrella" term for actions that are similar in the sexual intent department but not actually aggressive enough to be considered sexual harassment, sexual assault, or rape."?
If that's what militant feminists do, and you have an issue with it - you should take that up with them and not me, because I'm not a militant feminists so I'm not going to try to defend their reasoning.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Wow this thread has got long since I last left it!

Just wanted to chime in on the mention of staring.

It's hard to control your eyes, I look at people all of the time, if I see someone beautiful then yes I have a bit of a stare. And I have no issue with a man looking at me. But there are different kinds of looks, just like someone could glare at you in the street it's different to them smiling at you. So if someone is looking at me in a non threatening way, not making it clear they have sexual intent and are not constantly staring at me without blinking then I'm not too bothered.
I'll give a few examples of staring that is ok and staring that isn't ok. I'll use the gym as I basically block out people staring the rest of the time as it's so common.

1st scenario happens all of the time, you're in the gym, everyone looks at everyone else, most people wear tightish clothing. So I walk past a few guys and they have a look. Not a problem, we smile at one another and walk on.
2nd scenario happens less often but sadly there seem to be guys who go to the gym for this purpose: I'm on some mats doing sit ups, a guy is facing away from me on a running machine, except as he's running his head is swiveled around like an owl staring constantly. When I look he does nothing to stop. I am the only person on the mats in this area. As I walk past him to the other part of the gym his eyes follow me. I stare back at him aggressively, only about a meter away does he look away. This has happened a bunch of times with different guys. It's especially ridiculous as they're risking injury by doing weights/exercise with their heads at weird angles to stare.
The first scenario is just a natural human response, can't be helped. It's actually pretty complimentary as it's a form of appreciation. The second scenario they are clearly away I am not comfortable with the situation but are continuing to stare for their own entertainment. Essentially deliberately sexualising me without my consent. It is not rape, but it makes me extremely uncomfortable and is one reason I am not particularly keen on going to leisure center gyms which seem to have more guys like this rather than serious gym goers. I have also been putting up with this since I was 16 and first went to the gym. In the worst situations it's led to me being followed.
I guess it's not rocket science, if you continuously stare at someone for ages, follow them as they move, lean around corners to get a better view. It's fucking creepy, appears threatening and is almost certainly not wanted. If I want to freak out one of my friends or my boyfriend I might do this, and they know and trust me! The reason it can be particularly scary for a woman is you do not know if you've been targeted to be stalked/raped. In most cases I think it's just men who have no boundaries, this can be a cultural thing. For example, travelling around Indonesia I didn't get looked at once with anything other than respect (muslim country by the way), but then I traveled to Malaysia which has a lot of Indian people travelling through and suddenly felt extremely uncomfortable from male staring.

Something interesting that I noticed and then found out a bunch of other girls I know also have. I get far less on street harassment when I'm dressed up or dressed sexily than when I'm wearing something "normal girl" like jeans, hoody, tied up hair, no make up etc. I get more appreciation looks when I'm dressed up nicely, and more smiles, a few more friendly compliments. But some of the men who harass women seem to be more likely to pick girls who are dressed in a way that isn't drawing attention. This leads me to believe it is more to do with aggression than attraction, when I'm dressed up I look more fierce and confident, while when I'm dressed down I look much more vulnerable. The guys who comment on me or approach me definitely do it in a much more aggressive way and seem less likely to accept my refusals.

Oh, one rape culture thing that I don't think has been brought up. Parents who force their children to hug people when they don't want it. What do you guys think about it? It is now pretty commonly seen as not being a good thing because it teaches children that it's ok for someone else to touch them when they feel uncomfortable to please the other person. Which could obviously lead to a child allowing or not reporting child abuse because they may think it's "ok", or even condoned by the parents who'd originally forced them to hug people. It's interesting because I remember a friend trying to force her child to hug me after we'd only met a few times, I had spent very little time around children and didn't want to and he clearly didn't either. We were both forced and were clearly both mutually miserable about the situation. Once I get to know a child I love a cuddle as much as the next person, but only if they want to be hugged. This is an interesting part of rape culture as it's something many parents teach their children from an early age that while it is not rape, on a very base level it makes it seem culturally acceptable to not always being in control of your body, or it being ok for those bigger than you, or within your family to be in your personal space. This could lead to victims accepting sexual assault as a child or later in life or it could lead to the child growing up not respecting boundaries or consent barriers and raping someone.

Hug rape is genuinely a thing and can be pretty terrifying! I have literally been pinned down in a forced hug by a 6ft2, heavily overweight hockey player I was in student halls with aged 20. It was horrifying, I was trying to fight him off and everything but he kept doing it to me until I made it so clear I didn't want to be around him and he then hated, bitched and made rumours about me forever afterwards.

My boyfriends siblings are twin brother and sister and the brother kept complaining about her "hug raping" him (they were 18). I told her she really shouldn't invade his personal space in that way if he doesn't want it just because she wants a hug. She agreed and said she wouldn't do it anymore, until their mother scoffed at me and said "but they've been hugging since the womb!". Like, seriously? They also shared a bed and baths when they were younger but it's really not cool anymore is it? Plus, hugging someone once doesn't mean they're entitled to always have a hug. I felt like it was such a brilliant opportunity to talk about consent which she missed completely. I feel like using hugs as a way to teach children about consent early on is a good thing. It's completely innocent and nothing to do with rape but is the base level of teaching personal space boundaries and knowing when they've been broken. It sends pretty mixed messages to make a child hug and kiss every relative when they don't like it "just to be polite", then tell them in their teens not to ever invade or allow someone to invade their personal space.

Thought this was a good example to completely differentiate between "rape culture" and "rape". Obviously a child grudgingly hugging that smelly family friend, or the one who gives sloppy kisses they hate, is not rape. It is also nothing to do with sex or sexuality. But it can be seen as part of a culture that teaches and allows people to not take consent seriously, and teaches that it's ok for someone in a power position to force you into human contact you don't enjoy (or that if you're in a position of power it's ok to force someone else). It's really easy to say "but it's just a hug!" And if you called a parent out they'd probably defend their actions and say you're being ridiculous. But is it "just a hug"? Psychology isn't isolated, we learn from everything we experience, especially when we're children. As children there a more brain pathways open, as a teenager these start to close based on your experiences and how you think. Once taught it is very difficult to undo that kind of message. And while I am definitely not saying that it will necessarily lead to anything to do with rape, just that the message could be one of many cultural factors that lead to raping or being raped.

 

[Booty_4U]

But I have lived in many low income crime riddled places. I am very very small in stature too. I have been raped by a stranger in a mall parking lot in a very wealthy area.

How is that a derailment? Domestic rape cases aren't usually reported for that persons individual reasons, which I think is an important to factor. I think that has more to do with trauma then society shaming victims. Example: When I was first sexually assaulted when I was younger, I didn't tell anyone because the trauma was too over whelming. Also that fucked up person threatened me. As an adult I have been able to heal through therapy and have reached out.

I get it, you personally do not walk around everyday fearing that you'll be raped. BUT TONS OF OTHER PEOPLE DO.
And the question about asking for a case where the husband has legally been granted permission to rape his wife is derailment because you were asking for something that you knew probably doesn't exist, whilst ignoring/changing the topic from situations that are actually happening right now.
Part of the trauma for lots of people IS being shamed by their family, friends, etc after they admit to being raped. A fairly common example is someone who was raped by family member, but their parents/grandparents didn't believe them and called them a liar, and the trauma of their entire family turning against them (and forcing them to continue to live with or see that rapist family member) is just as life ruining (if not more) as the assault itself.

They are easier marks for HUNDREDS of possible crimes not just rape. People like that are marks for criminals because of education or situation awareness. You want to protect them from one type of crime and ignore every other possible crime they might have commited against them?



Where do you get this info? Most everyone else that has posted to this thread as at least tried to link some source to their statements. What you have is an OPINION. You have NO WAY to know that most rapes are not reported. These are the sort of things Trumps says and annoys people that want some source or facts.

Also you're again combining the state and society together. I've NEVER met anyone in society that doesn't feel a victim of a crime shouldn't be able to get justice. The STATE needs PROOF to act. Not having proof isn't calling someone a liar it's the minimum for due process to begin. What makes your WORD on something hold more weight than the accused. I love to get criminals off the street but I hate seeing innocent people having their lives thrown away in jail because of heresay evidence.

I'm not joining the mob because a woman a don't know screams and points at another person.

This thread is about rape culture, not other types of crime, which is why no one is addressing other crimes. (Not because we don't care LOL)
I have an opinion, as do you. My opinion is based on personal experience, over four years of research, and talking to other human beings. Talking to other people is where I realized all of the unreported rape statistics are probably true... almost every person has a story of their consent being violated. Have you asked many people about if they've ever been raped or molested? And of those people, how many didn't report it? Just in this thread alone, look how many people have been violated without reporting it to the cops!

You are right in the fact that the victim can be a man, not just a woman, you are inexact though when you talk about "sexually violating" which is the main problem with this thread in general and what I was trying to point out.

My point was this: in order for something to be "rape" there must be penetration. If there isn't penetration it is not rape. So staring is not rape, complimenting you creepily on the street is not rape, leaning in to sniff your hair on the bus is not rape, commenting someone's lips on their avatar look sexy (like Lioravox complained about) is not rape or "rapey", and the 100s of things that are lumped into the "rape culture" category as "things that foster rape" in reality are so removed from actual rape it makes no sense to group them together.

Edit: vaginas cannot rape penises. Male rape is anal rape or mouth rape only. A woman can rape a man with a foreign object, though.

View attachment 69552

A person with a vagina could jerk off a passed out dude and then sit on his dick... Or like, if two people were fucking and then the guy says "nah, I'm done" but the other person keeps riding his dick... etc.
When I refer to my sexual assault, I generally use the word "molested" because he although he attempted shove his fingers inside of me, I feel like "rape" just doesn't accurately describe what happened.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I honestly don't know how else to explain to you & others, that I don't think rape culture and rape are mutually exclusive occurrences within society. I don't see them as being on the same level. Rape is horrible and Rape Culture is an annoying blip that we as people have to deal with because it's not invasive enough of people's rights or personal boundaries.

For me defining rape is - forcing someone into a physical sexual act against their will or without consent. And I define rape culture to be - the normalization of forcing sexual intent onto another person. The keywords here that do equate rape and rape culture to each other, are force and sexual intention. I also didn't claim the points you highlighted in my post to be sexual assault nor rape- you are putting that implication there yourself for whatever reason. I even said in another post that "I personally would not claim rape because a person catcalled me or brushed their hand against my boobs or ass, as I believe it devalues actual rape cases. But I wholeheartedly believe that the person who is doing those things to whatever degree is pushing their sexual advances onto me."

Maybe, it would help to view rape culture as a way of saying "society is saying these things are okay because they aren't physically invading another persons space with sexual intent.". We have words for things that do physically invade someone's space with sexual intent like sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape. Rape culture is the "umbrella" term for actions that are similar in the sexual intent department but not actually aggressive enough to be considered sexual harassment, sexual assault, or rape.

Yes I read through your posts trying to figure out exactly where you were coming from. Before I responded to that post. The things I highlighted were to make a point. I was not saying you claimed looking at you was the same as actual forcible penetration.

The name "rape culture", the questionable statistics that are used to support it that involve REAL rape, the waffling between one minute hearing "Think of the rape victims!" and the next "Oh I'm not saying this is ACTUAL rape!"... well, it smacks to me of a movement "crying rape" while simultaneously trying to say "oh I'm not crying rape". (Speaking broadly here, don't take it personally).

Oh, one rape culture thing that I don't think has been brought up. Parents who force their children to hug people when they don't want it. What do you guys think about it?
...
Hug rape is genuinely a thing and can be pretty terrifying!

I..have no words

 

[Mila_]

What about forced to penetrate? There are male victims who have been forced into having sex with someone. Example: sleeping men, male students who were raped by their teachers.
http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/hard-truth-girl-guy-rape/

I like to stick to the original definition of rape which doesn't have much to do with doing something sexual against someone else's will, the issue didn't use to be a matter of consent. The original meaning of rape had more to do with something practical: taking away something of value. A woman used to have 2 things of supreme value: her virginity and her modesty. When you raped a woman you robbed her of her future, if she wasn't a virgin she would had to settle for a man far below her social standing, and the rapist would also take away her innocence by raping her which made her less desirable.

Virginity also had a different meaning than it has today. It was about proof of paternity. A woman had to remain a virgin until marriage because it was the only way the man could be certain of his paternity once she had a child. No man wanted to raise the child of another without knowing. These things were really important, it defined the lives of people, so by raping a girl and taking away her virginity you were ruining her life and the prospects of her family too, for real, in a practical sense. Every decision she and her family made from then on would be colored by the fact that she was no longer a virgin.

A woman could be a virgin but a man could not, a woman could be raped and a man could not. Because men don't get pregnant and don't have a hymen. Women didn't need proof of anything because they were always certain that their child was theirs. Chastity in men was important because it was an insurance that all the resources he got would be destined to his family and not to lovers, whores, and the children of those unions. But chastity wasn't threatened by rape. The meaning of "virginity" changed and today it simply means "someone who hasn't had sex yet" so we switched the meaning of the word virginity with the meaning of the word chastity and we got rid of the word "chaste", it is now obsolete, but the different meanings did have a purpose once.

Today things have changed and we don't value virginity in the same way, at least publicly. I know many men still do value virginity and innocence and would never consider a loose woman marriage material, as much as we would like to pretend these things don't matter, we are biologically programmed to care about the things our ancestors cared about. In the words of anonymous modern men behind internet nicknames: "No hymen, no diamond"

If you do away with pregnancies and virginity and all that jazz and consider that the bad thing about rape is doing something against someone else's will, then yeah, you can rape a man, you can even rape him by forcing him to penetrate you, but where do you draw the line then? If the only thing that matters about rape is consent, why isn't catcalling someone NOT rape? See where it starts to get confusing?

The reason I do think you can rape a man today even though he can't get pregnant is because by penetrating a man anally you are taking away something practical of value which is his virility. A man that has been anally raped by another or by a weaker person (a woman) say, with an object, can suffer a similar form of discrimination to what women used to face when their virginity was taken. If you factor in the incidence of STD in anal intercourse, when a man rapes another there is a good chance of contracting dangerous diseases including HIV that are much more difficult to catch if you are a woman. So this is why I do consider you can rape a man.

 

[Booty_4U]

Yes I read through your posts trying to figure out exactly where you were coming from. Before I responded to that post. The things I highlighted were to make a point. I was not saying you claimed looking at you was the same as actual forcible penetration.

The name "rape culture", the questionable statistics that are used to support it that involve REAL rape, the waffling between one minute hearing "Think of the rape victims!" and the next "Oh I'm not saying this is ACTUAL rape!"... well, it smacks to me of a movement "crying rape" while simultaneously trying to say "oh I'm not crying rape". (Speaking broadly here, don't take it personally).

That's the way YOU interpret what she wrote, but other people have obviously understood what she meant (as evidenced by the ratings on her posts). Just because you don't *get it* doesn't mean she's not articulating her thoughts in a clear and straight forward way. It seems like you're still caught up on the fact that the umbrella term is called "rape culture" and not something like "non-consensual objectification including groping, catcalling, stalking, sexually harassing, sexual assault, and rape culture"

 

[LioraVox]

Yes I read through your posts trying to figure out exactly where you were coming from. Before I responded to that post. The things I highlighted were to make a point. I was not saying you claimed looking at you was the same as actual forcible penetration.

The name "rape culture", the questionable statistics that are used to support it that involve REAL rape, the waffling between one minute hearing "Think of the rape victims!" and the next "Oh I'm not saying this is ACTUAL rape!"... well, it smacks to me of a movement "crying rape" while simultaneously trying to say "oh I'm not crying rape". (Speaking broadly here, don't take it personally).

Seems like something you should take up with the people who used those statistics and thought processes. Not someone stating their own personal opinion on the subject.. because the way it read back, to me, was that you were claiming I said that they were one in the same when I made it a point to distinguish them from each other.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

That's the way YOU interpret what she wrote, but other people have obviously understood what she meant (as evidenced by the ratings on her posts). Just because you don't *get it* doesn't mean she's not articulating her thoughts in a clear and straight forward way. It seems like you're still caught up on the fact that the umbrella term is called "rape culture" and not something like "non-consensual objectification including groping, catcalling, stalking, sexually harassing, sexual assault, and rape culture"

To be clear, second paragraph just an additional opinion. Was not the point I was trying to make.

Seems like something you should take up with the people who used those statistics and thought processes. Not someone stating their own personal opinion on the subject.. because the way it read back, to me, was that you were claiming I said that they were one in the same when I made it a point to distinguish them from each other.

I hear where you are coming from.

...some guy staring at me for a length of time while he has a sexual fantasy about us is a part of rape culture because both people are forcing their sexual intent upon me without my consent.
...I also didn't stand in a sexy pose or start playfully teasing this person who is staring at me daydreaming about the things we'd do in a bedroom- that is their own fantasy that I'm now aware of because they won't break eye contact within my general direction.

The first two highlighted portions are not sexual assault, they are not rape. They are thought crimes.
The third highlighted portion lends itself to the disturbing notion that the first two can be inferred simply by the act of staring.

Is my statement here accurate?

 

[LioraVox]

To be clear, second paragraph just an additional opinion. Was not the point I was trying to make.

I hear where you are coming from.
Is my statement here accurate?

Do you want me to agree with you that those highlighted points aren't sexual assault or rape? If so- I agree.
Are they "thought crimes"- sure I guess..but I don't believe thought crimes to be an actual thing aside from trying to trivialize an opinion/stand point. Like who in the world has been convicted of a "thought crime"? assuming you have a distinction between "thought crime" and a "pre-meditated crime".

As for the third thing.. "because they won't break eye contact within my general direction." - this person could just be staring at something behind me or something someone else is doing, or even someone else.. but usually - when people get caught staring they stop.. unless they are space-out daydreaming. But in my examples, the person who is staring in my direction is staring at me.. fantasizing about me sexually. Because context.

 

[AudriTwo]

get it, you personally do not walk around everyday fearing that you'll be raped. BUT TONS OF OTHER PEOPLE DO.
And the question about asking for a case where the husband has legally been granted permission to rape his wife is derailment because you were asking for something that you knew probably doesn't exist, whilst ignoring/changing the topic from situations that are actually happening right now.
Part of the trauma for lots of people IS being shamed by their family, friends, etc after they admit to being raped. A fairly common example is someone who was raped by family member, but their parents/grandparents didn't believe them and called them a liar, and the trauma of their entire family turning against them (and forcing them to continue to live with or see that rapist family member) is just as life ruining (if not more) as the assault itself.

Do they? Could I get some data that so many people are afraid of being raped? Are there any polls? Or is this simply your opinion? That is what I'm getting at. It's normal to have fear in awful things. Each trauma a person experiences from any form of sexual assault is different. To saw the reason most don't speak is because of the shame from their social experiences isn't the only reason. I'm not denying that yes it does happen.

Also I wasn't "derailing" I was just adding nuance to the discussion.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

The name "rape culture", the questionable statistics that are used to support it that involve REAL rape, the waffling between one minute hearing "Think of the rape victims!" and the next "Oh I'm not saying this is ACTUAL rape!"... well, it smacks to me of a movement "crying rape" while simultaneously trying to say "oh I'm not crying rape". (Speaking broadly here, don't take it personally).

I don't see how "rape culture" is such a difficult concept to understand. It's been explained reasonably over and over again in this thread.

So, rape is a common concept within culture. We know from statistics (and from talking to nearly any woman) that it is common. We also know that it rarely gets reported. And that few reported cases end with a conviction. This is factual information you can search for in most databases and has similar results in multiple different countries (for example in the UK it's very similar to the USA).

Another thing as far as what is known is that re-offending is uncommon once someone has been convicted then released. This could be for a number of reasons. Sexual offenders tend to get more counselling focused on rehabilitation. Perhaps they don't feel the risk is worth it. Maybe they just got better at covering their tracks. But for whatever reason it's a very low percentage that offend again.

The latter could lead to the belief that maybe rape has something to do with culture and conditioning rather than being ingrained into our systems. An example being, it's not that common for someone with sexual deviancy (a pedophile) to commit a crime. In most sexual abuse cases against children the perpetrator does not have an attraction to children. It is in a pedophiles nature to desire children, this cannot be cured, so why do not all of them commit crimes? Free will. We all have the choice in our actions. If you are aware that something is wrong then you are less likely to do it, especially if you are in a culture that does not condone it.

Rape culture is a concept exploring the potential cultural influences and reasons why there are those who believe it's ok to rape, why it goes unreported, why it rarely leads to a conviction and why it is so common. So basically anything that could fall into that is "rape culture". If a girl says "I didn't want to report my rape because I was scared of the backlash I would face", that is rape culture because it is the social reason she felt she could not come forward. Lots of people get mugged every day, but if someone got mugged they would not fear social backlash in the same way as a rape victim might. Which is why "mugging culture" isn't something that is being discussed. It's also much more likely for the person to be convicted in a mugging/theft situation, and unlikely that the police would say to a mugging victim "are you sure you want to ruin their career by sending them to prison?" Or ask the victim what they were wearing. Or even try to make it seem like they chose to give their stuff over because there was no sign of a fight. The reason "rape culture" is being discussed is because culturally we treat rape very different to other crimes, and it should be treated differently because it has very severe implications to someone's mental health, yet rather than this leading to victims being treated more seriously and more convictions happening, the opposite seems to be occurring.
Some of the focus on rape culture is on the belief that some people rape through lack of education. Not being aware of the implications because society tends to shy from the concept. There are films showing men getting girls extremely drunk and taking advantage of them but them just being painted as a bit of a dog. I think I brought up James Bond and Pussy Galore earlier, but watch that scene on youtube, she continuously says no, fights him off repeatedly until he trips her onto the floor and gets on top of her. She continues to fight him off as he kisses and molests her, she finally gives in and kisses him back. It's an old film, but yet I know few people who didn't watch it as a child. That is a prime example of rape culture, this happens in real life and you would have evidence for a court case. She didn't want it, she made that clear, the character is actually a lesbian. But in the film, after she gives in it's all romantic. Because of course, this whole time she fought him off she actually secretly wanted it, she just wanted him to force her into it because she didn't want to admit to wanting it. Films like this could be just one part of the conditioning that could leave a teenager confused about what consent is and whether no really means no.
We do pick stuff up from media, with children these effects tend to be long term as they have less previous encoding, while with adults it only has a short term effect. This has been tried and tested with violent media resulting in violent behaviour. It makes sense that videos with scenes with men being sexually violent towards women would lead lasting effects too. Especially in cases of male idols like James Bond. If you then see your parents enjoy and condone this then that leads towards your ingrained cultural beliefs.

Rape culture isn't some far off concept, it's simply looking at what we know in terms of statistics surrounding rape and then looking at the social reasons which could be behind that behaviour.

 

[Gen]

Do they? Could I get some data that so many people are afraid of being raped? Are there any polls? Or is this simply your opinion? That is what I'm getting at. It's normal to have fear in awful things. Each trauma a person experiences from any form of sexual assault is different. To saw the reason most don't speak is because of the shame from their social experiences isn't the only reason. I'm not denying that yes it does happen.

Also I wasn't "derailing" I was just adding nuance to the discussion.

This book seems to be from 1989 so I'm sure it's different now (though I'd guess that it's worse, just because everyone seems more afraid of everything nowadays, but that's just a guess):

Most women worry about rape, particularly when they are alone. For example, in their book The Female Fear: The Social Cost of Rape, Margaret T. Gordon and Stephanie Riger found that one-third of the women they studied reported worrying at least once a month about being raped. A third of the women said that their fear of rape is ‘part of the background’ of their lives and ‘one of those things that’s always there.’ Another third claimed they never worried about rape but still reported taking precautions, unconsciously or consciously, to try to avoid being raped.

Also this:

The fear of strange rape impacts how women feel in public. A study by Canadian sociologists Ross MacMillan, Annette Nierobisz, and Sandy Welsh of over 12,000 Canadian women showed that stranger harassment and assault has a more consistent and significant impact on women’s fears in public than non-stranger harassment and assault. This fear significantly reduces women’s perceptions of safety while walking alone at night, using public transportation, walking alone in a parking garage, and while home alone at night (p 315, 319).

I personally don't usually think about rape as a threat when I'm walking home at night (usually more afraid of getting mugged or zombies hahaha), but I do still keep my keys in between my fingers, keep my phone out with 911 predialed (not always but if I'm in a sketchy area or I'm creeped out for whatever reason), and I always phone someone if I'm in a cab and pointedly say that I'm in cab #999 and should be at my destination in about 15 mins. So I guess I'd qualify as taking precautions. Even if they're not related to rape, I think I do this because of all the "don't get raped" stuff they taught us in girls sex ed -- I don't know if guys tend to do this but I'd guess not as often as women do, even if they're more likely to be assaulted in public by a stranger.

(Also just something fun I remembered about girls sex ed, being taught that if someone is staring at you and you're afraid it's gonna escalate, stare back at them with a neutral face for exactly 1.5 seconds because that's long enough to let them know you're aware but not so long that it indicates interest. Sooo specific haha.)

 

[AudriTwo]

I personally don't usually think about rape as a threat when I'm walking home at night (usually more afraid of getting mugged or zombies hahaha), but I do still keep my keys in between my fingers, keep my phone out with 911 predialed (not always but if I'm in a sketchy area or I'm creeped out for whatever reason), and I always phone someone if I'm in a cab and pointedly say that I'm in cab #999 and should be at my destination in about 15 mins. So I guess I'd qualify as taking precautions. Even if they're not related to rape, I think I do this because of all the "don't get raped" stuff they taught us in girls sex ed -- I don't know if guys tend to do this but I'd guess not as often as women do, even if they're more likely to be assaulted in public by a stranger.

I would describe this as "survival instinct." Probably linked to evolutionary psychology.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I don't see how "rape culture" is such a difficult concept to understand. It's been explained reasonably over and over again in this thread.

So, too, have some of the objections that have been raised.
Additionally, this thread is not the only source for information about "rape culture".

Another thing as far as what is known is that... This could be for a number of reasons..Perhaps they...Maybe they...

The latter could lead to...

...social reasons which could be...

I like these words. This is the language of a skeptic. But that is not the tone of your overall message.

This is a good list and worth a read.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/

Are you able to critique this list?

I think I brought up James Bond and Pussy Galore earlier, but watch that scene on youtube, she continuously says no, fights him off repeatedly until he trips her onto the floor and gets on top of her. She continues to fight him off as he kisses and molests her, she finally gives in and kisses him back. It's an old film, but yet I know few people who didn't watch it as a child. That is a prime example of rape culture, this happens in real life and you would have evidence for a court case. She didn't want it, she made that clear, the character is actually a lesbian. But in the film, after she gives in it's all romantic. Because of course, this whole time she fought him off she actually secretly wanted it, she just wanted him to force her into it because she didn't want to admit to wanting it. Films like this could be just one part of the conditioning that could leave a teenager confused about what consent is and whether no really means no.
We do pick stuff up from media, with children these effects tend to be long term as they have less previous encoding, while with adults it only has a short term effect. This has been tried and tested with violent media resulting in violent behaviour. It makes sense that videos with scenes with men being sexually violent towards women would lead lasting effects too. Especially in cases of male idols like James Bond. If you then see your parents enjoy and condone this then that leads towards your ingrained cultural beliefs.

If this is rape culture, and rape culture is the problem, then what is the solution?

Those two questions are rhetorical, unless you just want to respond...

For consideration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

This is not to make light of the plight of victims; nor is it to say there aren't some things I think ought to be changed.

 

[Booty_4U]

http://everydayfeminism.com/?s=rape+culture

 

[xDollPartsx]

Just wanted to share an article that I read a while back that I found extremely interesting and insightful, I dislike that it zeros in on men specifically because I feel there are plenty of women out there who generally view or are desensitized to these things that are pointed out as well but it was written by a man so I enjoyed that it was from the perspective of someone in the group that is being observed. Anyway. Take it however you please, either learn it understand it/some of it or roll your eyes and scoff if it pleases you. I just wanted to share it.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-men-are-trained-to-think-sexual-assault-no-big-deal/

 

[IsabellaSnow]

I like these words. This is the language of a skeptic. But that is not the tone of your overall message.

I am sure about what I am saying, but I rarely use definite language in a forum post because it riles people up. I cannot speak for everyone in the world, so by using the word "could", I am saying what is true, that it will not "always" lead to something but it could.

But perhaps this is what it is:
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately. Their research also suggests corollaries: high-ability individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.[1]

If you read up about this, it also equates to language used. Those who are more knowledgeable tend to be more likely to sound less sure than those with virtually no knowledge. This is something I notice day to day, in businesses, around friends and especially on forum postings. Those who seem to be more informed are more likely to use less certain language, while those clearly less informed are more likely to sound sure of everything they say. I've heard people say some pretty mad "facts" which is just completely incorrect before but they are so certain that they'll argue you into the ground until you get a shed ton of evidence (which they'll perhaps fight off as a conspiracy theory). When I spend time with my friends with PhD's they use much less certain language than those who read nothing but articles with no known sources, yet they're far more knowledgeable. They literally spend their lives researching and learning. But the more you learn, the more you know your chances of being right are less. When I am forum posting I tend not to reference much as it would take additional time to source everything and you would most likely not appreciate if I did havard referencing on every post. No one seems to read of believe any referencing people put in anyway, and as I'm not writing an academic essay, if you want to learn, look it up.

I feel like out of everything that I wrote, picking out a few words out of context and using them to say I am skeptical of what I am saying is just bad troll behaviour. And sorry to swear, but to me it makes you look like a fucking idiot. That last post just makes it clear you are trying to cause a disagreement and an argument rather than having any interest in this subject. Stop commenting on my posts, you clearly have nothing of value to say.

 

[Ythee_Fox]

Here at Brazil we discussed a lot about it on internet a few months ago because of a case where a sixteen y.o. girls (mom of a kid with about 2y.o.) got raped by THIRTY THREE MEN in the middle of a party. They recorded that. SHE UNCONSCIOUS AND THEY KEPT COMING ONE AFTER ANOTHER.

And guess what? Everyone went after knowing all of her life, slutshaming her. Saying that If she had sixteen and a two y.o. boy, she must like to have sex and she is a whore, so it was not rape. That she liked to do gang bangs, so it was not rape. That she went to that party pretenting to have sex, so it wasnt rape. THAT IN TH BEGGINING SHE WAS AWAKE AND DOING THAT BY HER WILL, BUT THEN SHE FAINTED, AND THEY KEPT DOING THAT, BUT WHY SHE WAS FUCKING BEFORE SHE PASSED OUT, IT WASNT RAPE. And sure, the always classic -if she was home taking care of her kid and cleaning the house like a decent woman it wouldnt have happened-

THIRTY THREE and NO ONE went after theyr life, theyr precedents. Everyone was ocupied trying to go after her life and trying to find ANYTHING that would make that a little more acceptable.

This is one of the things that can happen in a rape culture. Just the fact of that guys thinking that recording it would be good and continuing while she was unconscious on the middle of a party with another people around, no one doing nothing about it. And they were laughing while doing that.

Another good example would be a lot of stuff i see in ´nerd groups´ in facebook (usually full of guys), was a guy posting a photo where ag girl was sleeping on a couch with her butt up, and he sayd -my cousin is here and slept in my couch, what you guys think i should do?-.Think you can imagine what the majority of them sayd. And it was funny to them. It was ok and even ´normal´, and they were feeling praysed by the group by inventing on theyr comments different stuff that the guy could do to his ´sleeping cousin´. A lot of gys like to make girls go drunk just to have an ´easy fuck´, and they learn it with theyr parents and friends. People prayse them for making a girl super drunk to have ´easy sex´

Other good example would be when a girl is raped and they ask -why were you alone in that street at this time of night?-, -were you drunk?-, -oh, you just regreted of doing sex, i got you girl-, -what were you wearing?-, -he was your husband?-, A GIRL GOT HUMILLIATED HERE BY THE JUDGE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COURT/TRIAL (i dont know what word i was supposed to use here, sorry), HE ASKED HER WHY SHE DIDNT TRY TO CLOSE HER LEGS, and question, and question, and question, and humiliate (this makes a lot of women be ashamed of reporting that of even talking to someone, bc they will go after her anyway). When its a famous guy then, EVERYONE just loves to ignore it happened, and blame the girl (even more) saying that she just want attention, she wants his money, etc, etc.

And the last more occurrent example that i can give is when a girl dont want to have sex with her partner, and he says something like ´so you dont love me anymore?´, and make a lot of mental abuse making her thing that to make him love her, she have to be sexually ready and willing to have sex with him, even if she dont want to. And if she talks about that with ppl, they will try to say that it was just normal sex bc he was her SO, and it happens sometimes. Or say that she felt guilty about having sex that night and then wanted to ashame him.

Rape culture is not about saying ´oh rape is ok´, it is about the tiny actions that society does, unconsciously, to blame the victim, to find always a way to make it ´not be rape´, to make a lot of men thinking that they will never be caught (they would not record otherwise), to educate boys that ´slaping his sleeping cousin ass would be damn good and a man action´, to make them think that if they are parters with someone, this person HAS to give´em pleasure, to make them think that they can invade our spaces to ´cat call´, touch us, say gross stuff in our ears, to make them think that making a girl drunk to have easy sex while she is incapable of reacting is a good idea, and to make them prayse this kinda stuff, to laugh at it, to make it softer than it really is, to just pretend it never happens, never happened.

We see so many famous actor that abused, beated and raped women and even girls having theyr career intact (receiving million dollar contracts) while acresses, journalists, common girls have theyr career ruined by reporting them.

Here at Brazil, recently, a guy who killed his ex wife and gave her to feed his friend´s dogs just got realised from prison, he was a soccer player, and guess what? He got proposes of joining NINE teams, some of them being REALLY BIG teams. Meanwhile, a journalist that got assaulted by a singer (who was a lot defended by his fans and has his career going good) got fired for reporting his assault.

There is so many different stuff that we, as society, do, to encourage this kind of behavior and to make these people feel that they´re safe doing this.. So many that i am sure i didnt say even a bit of them, but its a lot, and we have so good examples that it just can not be denied or ignored. Rape culture is not about literally saying ´rape is ok´, rape is a very heavy word, but we HAVE to use it. We dont have to be afraid of talking about it, to say that word. We should be afraid of going deep on someones facebook just to find something that can make you think that maybe she wanted it. Be afraid of having a friend needing help and she is too afraid of reporting it or talking to anyone, because our society make them feel discouraged, and make them think they will be humilliated.

Rape is not a ´too heavy word for that´, its not ´surprise sex´ ( lot of guys say this about rape here, ´as a joke´), its not a ´she sayd she wanted it in the start, so screw her if she changed her mind in the middle of the thing´, it is not a ´selfish sex of a boyfriend/fiance/husband´, because rape is rape, and nothing else.

Sorry for my poorly written english, idk if someone will even understand how i am feeling talking about it, and i feel frustrated of having a limited vocabulary right now. I hope it was at least making sense

Edit: Oh, and recently we had even a case where a movie had a rape scene, and guess what, the director didnt gave this notice to the actress, so she would be like ´feeling like the character and would be a true reaction´. Lot of ppl complimented that, and sayd he was an artist and genius. But he is not. He recorded a real rape, and it is gross, he is not an artist, he is not a genius, he is a gross human being that kept this secret for YEARS, and he was ok with that. And she was afraid and damaged

 

[Gen]

A GIRL GOT HUMILLIATED HERE BY THE JUDGE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COURT/TRIAL (i dont know what word i was supposed to use here, sorry), HE ASKED HER WHY SHE DIDNT TRY TO CLOSE HER LEGS

That happened here, too, in Canada. He resigned recently but yeah, asked her why she didn't keep her knees together and said sometimes sex and pain go together. Canada also has the cop who inspired Slut Walk by saying if women want to avoid rape they shouldn't dress like sluts. Stuff like that can definitely indicate why victims wouldn't want to report.

(Also, your English is great!)

 

[IsabellaSnow]

Edit: Oh, and recently we had even a case where a movie had a rape scene, and guess what, the director didnt gave this notice to the actress, so she would be like ´feeling like the character and would be a true reaction´. Lot of ppl complimented that, and sayd he was an artist and genius. But he is not. He recorded a real rape, and it is gross, he is not an artist, he is not a genius, he is a gross human being that kept this secret for YEARS, and he was ok with that. And she was afraid and damaged

I don't know if you're talking about the same scene, but I remember this but I can't remember which film it is. Really fucked up.

Sorry for my poorly written english, idk if someone will even understand how i am feeling talking about it, and i feel frustrated of having a limited vocabulary right now. I hope it was at least making sense

I like the way you write, I can imagine you having an accent as a few sentences were written the Latin way around. I had no problems understanding
You made a lot of really good points, especially on showing the emphasis that the culture is not about saying people think rape is ok. But lots of different parts of the culture allowing it to happen. Rape being such a scary word is almost the largest problem, people will admit to stealing but they won't admit to raping. Being camgirls this culture would not treat us nicely in court. I used to be really careful dirty talking with members because I could just see it coming up in court that I had said in a private show that I wanted sex. Seems paranoid, but honestly this happens. When Brock Turner sexually assaulted that girl he had been found passed out, remained passed out while they examined her and they found abrasions inside her etc. Yet she was still questioned because she'd sent a flirty text to her boyfriend. They pulled her night apart trying to make her seem that she was "up for it". But she was found passed out behind a dumpster having had her clothes pulled off and being sexually assaulted by a male who was sober enough to notice he'd been seen and run away. Even though he penetrated her, because it wasn't with his penis it was not called rape. He had his life and career mentioned many times, reading articles around that story it looked like he was made to seem like a model citizen and her some skanky slut. Yet he was the one on trial. What is up with that?

There have been cases of a husband murdering his wife and children, having a big article about what a great guy he was without his wife's name even mentioned. As a culture we don't like believing in evil. You do get witch hunts, for example Brock Turner ended up becoming a witch hunt because while he was found guilty, the judge gave him a ridiculously short sentence. In this case the judge did him no favour as it ended up going viral, people felt he hadn't been properly punished, and in those cases there are those who'll take it into their own hands.

An interesting part of rape culture is that we place a lot of faith in the court system. Even if there is evidence of a crime it is hard to get a conviction, and going through a court case is a horrible thing to go through as a victim as it completely disrupts life, potentially for years. But even if people in society know someone is a rapist, if they haven't been trialed they will often go quiet. There was a young man in a town I used to live in who liked girls in their early teens. I had never met him but my closest friend had been a victim. I was with a few male friends of mine and mentioned I felt a bit weird around one guy in the pub as I knew he was friends with someone who'd done this to my friend, but I couldn't remember the guys name. One of them joked and said "is it *****?" And the name was exactly who it was. The guys hadn't expected it to be, but it was a running joke about this guy. They all knew he was doing things that weren't ok, yet no one had direct proof so they just ignored it, kept on chatting to him in the street. He ended up getting an 18 year sentence.
People really don't like accepting it happens in society. I hear of cases where there was plenty of evidence but the victim couldn't handle the court case and the charges were dropped, the men go on with their lives, everyone forgets about it. Maybe they get the odd hate mail but as far as society feels it proves their innocence (even in cases with actual witnesses).
What amazes me is that you even need the victim to testify more than a statement in some of these cases as there is so much evidence to go by. In a case in England where a man went around brutally raping women, from the ages of about 10 to 45, one of the girls was so traumatised by the ordeal she couldn't handle accounting what had happened. There was plenty of evidence and they knew it was the same man, but he didn't get charged with her rape when he was caught because she couldn't testify. In this case there were over ten other women so he's been put away, probably to never be released. But it worries me in a case if this young girl were one of the only ones to be attacked before he got caught. So many rapists walk free because the victim cannot testify. Out of all the ones he raped, only one of them had his DNA on them. It's not easy to gather DNA evidence in these cases, though I have heard people saying stuff that implies they think it is easy.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I feel like out of everything that I wrote, picking out a few words out of context and using them to say I am skeptical of what I am saying is just bad troll behaviour. And sorry to swear, but to me it makes you look like a fucking idiot. That last post just makes it clear you are trying to cause a disagreement and an argument rather than having any interest in this subject. Stop commenting on my posts, you clearly have nothing of value to say.

Just a quick clarification. I am not saying I think you are skeptical of what you were saying. To the contrary. I think you are certain of your position.

I believe your position requires you to ignore inconvenient truths. Shut those voices out. Silence them.

I am a bad troll, yes. I also have a deep rooted, personal interest in this subject. The two are not mutually exclusive.

A boy under the age of 10 lays in the floor, not in the bed. This is so he can keep his feet up against the door. He doesn't want his grandfather to come in again. He will learn later to associate this with the word "rape".

It is a foul movement that will take this word, and then link/associate it with something as innocuous as being forced to give his aunt a goodbye hug at Christmas.

"One ought to recognize that the present political chaos is connected with the decay of language, and that one can probably bring about some improvement by starting at the verbal end"

Get back up on your bandwagon dear.