DEA Banning Kratom. FUCK. Cancer survivor with chronic pain

[Finley]

I'm a survivor of stage 3b melanoma. I had two major surgeries that left me with nerve damage and chronic pain (the cut from the center on my chest all the way up the left side of my neck. I have limited mobility in my left arm, a visible permanently "dislocated" shoulder blade, constant stiff neck, back, shoulders, excruciating pain every morning, among many other things). I went to a pain management doctor for 3 years after surgery and was prescribed everything from hydrocodone, morphine, gabapentin, and then she tried to prescribe oxycontin. That was it for me, I would not take oxycontin and knew I had to wean myself off the meds I was on because my tolerance was so high and they weren't helping.

I had discovered kratom a year before but only took it occasionally. I didn't realize how much it helped me until I weaned off my prescription meds. For a week I had major withdrawal symptoms and I drank kratom tea to help ease the pain. After two weeks I realized that my pain level was no longer a 7-10 when waking up, but now a 3-5, and after taking kratom in the morning it dropped to a 1 or 0. It was that moment I realized how much more the pharmaceuticals were causing my chronic pain to feel worse, and how much kratom was actually helping.

I have been taking kratom ever since and its a miracle. I still have some higher pain days, but kratom makes it live able. I am no longer stuck in bed for long periods of time and can do things like clean, cook, do fun things with my son, and work from home. Without kratom I don't know what I will do because my entire life and livelihood will suffer.

I'm only 32 years old. I want the quality of life that kratom gives me until I die. Instead I have to worry about the DEA and felony charges against me if I ever have kratom and get caught with it. Fuck you DEA, fuck you.

 

[HanlonShaves]

"War on drugs has been a total failure? Better add something else to the list."

Was only marginally aware of kratom before now, decided to read up on it after seeing this post. This ban is asinine, seems like this really is going to ruin lives. Sorry you're getting caught in the crossfire of this shortsighted stupidity.

Fingers crossed that something changes before it goes into effect.

 

[Guy]

http://heavy.com/news/2016/09/dea-d...nalties-testimonials-poison-control-petition/

 

[Finley]

“Schedule I drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse.” This directly contradicts the thousands who have reportedly found medical relief from kratom.

So fucked. Most people I know who use kratom have some kind of chronic disorder: pain, anxiety. I have also known people who have used it to come off of suboxone or methadone with great success. It's really a shame that a plant that has TONS of medical uses is being banned. But $$$ for big pharma so they'd rather have everyone on the legal prescribed stuff.

For me, prescription pain meds are a no go. I just can't. Too many side effects and too many long term effects. I have none of these things from kratom and I can fully function on them and just, not be in pain.

 

[Finley]

Also, stories from people who use kratom: http://heavy.com/news/2016/09/i-am-...ries-addiction-pharmaceuticals-dea-iamkratom/

 

[Mila_]

I had no idea this existed until it got banned and now that everyone is talking about it I find so much contradictory information I honestly don't know what to think anymore.

Some users say it is just like a really strong cup of coffee that makes them happy and less anxious. Others say it is an opiate that does give you a potent high at the beginning until you develop resistance, that it does create dependence and that PAWS is terrible.

From what I could gather online, my main problem with drugs like kratom is how cheap and easy to obtain they are. If I had children I would worry over them getting hooked to some "tea" like kratom, developing dependance to it, and resistance to it, and looking for stronger opiates.

You never really recover from an opiate addiction because once you have experienced what the world is like under opiates, and it becomes your new normal, the old normal will never satisfy you ever again. I know because I had very close friends with heroin addictions and their cycle would always be rehab - weed - cough syrup - heroin - rehab.

Maybe they should make kratom a recipe only medication, that at least would keep some sort of control over the substance.

 

[Finley]

I had no idea this existed until it got banned and now that everyone is talking about it I find so much contradictory information I honestly don't know what to think anymore.

Some users say it is just like a really strong cup of coffee that makes them happy and less anxious. Others say it is an opiate that does give you a potent high at the beginning until you develop resistance, that it does create dependence and that PAWS is terrible.

From what I could gather online, my main problem with drugs like kratom is how cheap and easy to obtain they are. If I had children I would worry over them getting hooked to some "tea" like kratom, developing dependance to it, and resistance to it, and looking for stronger opiates.

You never really recover from an opiate addiction because once you have experienced what the world is like under opiates, and it becomes your new normal, the old normal will never satisfy you ever again. I know because I had very close friends with heroin addictions and their cycle would always be rehab - weed - cough syrup - heroin - rehab.

Maybe they should make kratom a recipe only medication, that at least would keep some sort of control over the substance.

It's not an opiate. That's the first issue, the DEA is touting it as if it IS, but it's an opioid receptor antagonist. I have an addictive personality and have never experienced withdrawals from this or any kind of addiction. It's really not more addictive than coffee, and the withdrawals are also comparable to coffee. It feels nothing like pharmaceutical opiates, even when you first take it.

I have had an opiate addiction in the very distant past and kratom has actually saved my life.

 

[Mila_]

It's not an opiate. That's the first issue, the DEA is touting it as if it IS, but it's an opioid receptor antagonist. I have an addictive personality and have never experienced withdrawals from this or any kind of addiction. It's really not more addictive than coffee, and the withdrawals are also comparable to coffee. It feels nothing like pharmaceutical opiates, even when you first take it.

I have had an opiate addiction in the very distant past and kratom has actually saved my life.

Well, it may not be an opiate, but from what I could find online kratom binds to the same receptors opiates bind to so the effect it has is the same as an opiate. There are other mild opiates such as codeine that I think probably compare to kratom in potency. I think this is why they are classifying it as an opiate.

A lot of people say the same you are saying, but there are other users who claim that it isn't like a cup of coffee. This comment by a user of /r/kratom I found was a pretty interesting read:



I have never tried kratom so I don't know who to believe, maybe it has different effects depending on the person and everyone is right. But if kratom binds to opioid receptors I am more inclined to believe that it does have an effect stronger than a cup of coffee on the user.

 

[Finley]

2014-2016 the DEA reported 15 kratom related deaths. Fifteen. Annually, there are 15 deaths a year from falling icicles, falling coconuts, about 12 deaths per year from college and high school football...

so.

 

[Finley]

I'm not trying to convince anyone. But I will say it's a hell of a lot better (for me) than accidentally OD'ing on prescription meds because a tolerance has built or having major liver damage/cirrhosis. Kratom has helped a whole hell of a lot of people and there's a ton of people with chronic issues that want a safer or more natural alternative than actual harmful substances.

They (don't - they do, but it's not a schedule 1 substance, not a federal crime to possess or ingest) regulate caffeine, nicotine or alcohol, and that kills a lot of people and they are all addictive. The latter 2 kill a whole lot of people

 

[Guy]

I'm a survivor of stage 3b melanoma. I had two major surgeries that left me with nerve damage and chronic pain (the cut from the center on my chest all the way up the left side of my neck. I have limited mobility in my left arm, a visible permanently "dislocated" shoulder blade, constant stiff neck, back, shoulders, excruciating pain every morning, among many other things). I went to a pain management doctor for 3 years after surgery and was prescribed everything from hydrocodone, morphine, gabapentin, and then she tried to prescribe oxycontin. That was it for me, I would not take oxycontin and knew I had to wean myself off the meds I was on because my tolerance was so high and they weren't helping.

I had discovered kratom a year before but only took it occasionally. I didn't realize how much it helped me until I weaned off my prescription meds. For a week I had major withdrawal symptoms and I drank kratom tea to help ease the pain. After two weeks I realized that my pain level was no longer a 7-10 when waking up, but now a 3-5, and after taking kratom in the morning it dropped to a 1 or 0. It was that moment I realized how much more the pharmaceuticals were causing my chronic pain to feel worse, and how much kratom was actually helping.

I have been taking kratom ever since and its a miracle. I still have some higher pain days, but kratom makes it live able. I am no longer stuck in bed for long periods of time and can do things like clean, cook, do fun things with my son, and work from home. Without kratom I don't know what I will do because my entire life and livelihood will suffer.

I'm only 32 years old. I want the quality of life that kratom gives me until I die. Instead I have to worry about the DEA and felony charges against me if I ever have kratom and get caught with it. Fuck you DEA, fuck you.

Why did you avoid taking oxycotin?
Just curious.

 

[Finley]

Why did you avoid taking oxycotin?
Just curious.

Because of the extremely high addiction rate, and I also knew too many people who took them and eventually ended up with a pretty bad heroin addiction. Oxy is bad stuff, the risks far outweighed the benefits for me

 

[Mila_]

I'm not trying to convince anyone. But I will say it's a hell of a lot better (for me) than accidentally OD'ing on prescription meds because a tolerance has built or having major liver damage/cirrhosis. Kratom has helped a whole hell of a lot of people and there's a ton of people with chronic issues that want a safer or more natural alternative than actual harmful substances.

They (don't - they do, but it's not a schedule 1 substance, not a federal crime to possess or ingest) regulate caffeine, nicotine or alcohol, and that kills a lot of people and they are all addictive. The latter 2 kill a whole lot of people

Maybe I didn't explain myself very well... I agree with you that kratom is not heroin, and from what I have read it is nearly impossible to OD on kratom.

I also think it is stupid to make it a federal crime to possess or ingest. But I do think some regulation should be placed on all mind altering substances. I wouldnt want kids buying kratom like they buy chamomile tea.

 

[Finley]

Maybe I didn't explain myself very well... I agree with you that kratom is not heroin, and from what I have read it is nearly impossible to OD on kratom.

I also think it is stupid to make it a federal crime to possess or ingest. But I do think some regulation should be placed on all mind altering substances. I wouldnt want kids buying kratom like they buy chamomile tea.

I wouldn't want kids buying it either, and while there are/were no federal regulations on them, everywhere I have purchased it would verify that you were 18 or over. I would agree with restricting it to adults only, but not schedule 1

 

[Guy]

Because of the extremely high addiction rate, and I also knew too many people who took them and eventually ended up with a pretty bad heroin addiction. Oxy is bad stuff, the risks far outweighed the benefits for me

I had a foster brother who frequently listened to a rap song called oxycotin.

 

[HanlonShaves]

But I do think some regulation should be placed on all mind altering substances. I wouldn't want kids buying kratom like they buy chamomile tea.

I wouldn't want kids buying it either, and while there are/were no federal regulations on them, everywhere I have purchased it would verify that you were 18 or over. I would agree with restricting it to adults only, but not schedule 1

Seems treating it like alcohol or tobacco would be more fitting for it, certainly. Given the possibility of reactions with other medications, maybe as far as physician supervised/approved use? Either way, seems like this ban is going to hurt a lot more than it'll help.

 

[JickyJuly]

It seems like government agencies would have a conflict of interest situation with banning Kratom given that they profit from keeping people on Methadone. When my husband was at the methadone clinic about a decade ago he paid $14 a day. There were lines out the door. That's why they put so many rules on Suboxone too. Opiate addiction is an American cash cow. I don't know anything about Kratom tbh, but if it even MIGHT help people ease out of opiate treatments, I imagine lots of folks who get rich taking advantage of addicts are going to squash it.

 

[n_i_c_u]

WoW! I feel bad for you without even knowing about this Kratom. So many people in my family have had cancer (brother had eye cancer) and mom (breast cancer) and seeing how this helped you, I wish the government could see the pain involved with illness. Instead peoples are just left to suffer if they don't have drug connections. I wish my mother and brother had some sort of weed help to get them to eat and make their day better--but it was illegal and no one cared in the 70's and 2000's. Maybe the lack of comfort made them stronger but it was hard to accidentally walk in and see my mom crying at such a young age and not being able to help, and, later, passing by my brother's kid at the hospital as I went to the room.

My primary care physician was just released from being a doctor (I think he teaches now even though he got tons of awards before as a best doctor or something like that for years) because he super over-prescribed addictive drugs (oxy or some stuff like that) to a guy with back problems and lost millions of dollars in the suit for the group he was with. The guy sued him because he lost all ability to do anything due to his chemical dependence and won. Maybe that is a worry.

I still feel bad for you to have to be aided by a drug the government doesn't like. Not sure what can be done.

 

[Mila_]

It seems like government agencies would have a conflict of interest situation with banning Kratom given that they profit from keeping people on Methadone. When my husband was at the methadone clinic about a decade ago he paid $14 a day. There were lines out the door. That's why they put so many rules on Suboxone too. Opiate addiction is an American cash cow. I don't know anything about Kratom tbh, but if it even MIGHT help people ease out of opiate treatments, I imagine lots of folks who get rich taking advantage of addicts are going to squash it.

How do they go about it, though? I get there is pharma lobby, but aren't most methadone clinics public? I don't know how public clinics would benefit from lobbying since the funding is public too? I am genuinely curious, I don't know much about it.

 

[Rose]

I can't take any form of narcotics or pain killers at all, so I can understand your frustration and some of your pain. For me I've yet to have any pain killer that actually works at all, even a little bit, so unless I can smoke a fattie I'm stuck dealing with my pain totally sober.

I hope they revise this potential ban or come up with some other solution.

 

[JickyJuly]

How do they go about it, though? I get there is pharma lobby, but aren't most methadone clinics public? I don't know how public clinics would benefit from lobbying since the funding is public too? I am genuinely curious, I don't know much about it.

I'm not sure what percentage of clinics are private vs public, but I suspect that they all profit. I could be wrong. All of my evidence is anecdotal/based on my husband's experiences in only 3/50 states.

 

[Remykins]

I've not tried Kratom, nor any of the things I'm about to suggest, but from what I understand, they ARE legal, and may offer some relief - Kava Kava or Phenibut? I know they're more "natural", and from what I understand are easy to get (ie. Amazon)....not sure about Phenibut, but I've read Kava Kava can sometimes help with pain relief.

Sorry this is happening to you, chronic pain is horrible. I have pretty advanced scoliosis and suffer from severe back pain non-stop and I refuse to take opiates as well so I just kind of have to deal with it. I'm placing an order for Kava with my next paycheck so I'll try and remember to let you know if it helped any

 

[Shaun__]

The DEA is just panicking over the thought of cannabis being legalized and trying to find a new group of mellow people to throw in prison, so they will not have to go after dangerous criminals.

 

[Finley]

I've not tried Kratom, nor any of the things I'm about to suggest, but from what I understand, they ARE legal, and may offer some relief - Kava Kava or Phenibut? I know they're more "natural", and from what I understand are easy to get (ie. Amazon)....not sure about Phenibut, but I've read Kava Kava can sometimes help with pain relief.

Sorry this is happening to you, chronic pain is horrible. I have pretty advanced scoliosis and suffer from severe back pain non-stop and I refuse to take opiates as well so I just kind of have to deal with it. I'm placing an order for Kava with my next paycheck so I'll try and remember to let you know if it helped any

I have kava kava, unfortunately doesn't touch my pain :/ Phenibut is good for anxiety, but if you ever try it be careful you don't accidentally take too much! I have seen someone take more than the suggested dosage and it was like they took a lot of benzos, scary shit. Passing out like ALL day and night. That stuff needs to be regulated to adults only too

 

[Osmia]

Good point made by this pharmacologist:

“There needs to be some oversight as to what kind of products are being sold in the interest of consumer safety,” Oliver Grundmann, a pharmacologist at the University of Florida, told STAT in late July, a month before the DEA’s announcement.

He added, though, that he is “not necessarily saying that everything related to the plant should be put in Schedule 1. We have seen the damage that that can do to a drug with promising pharmacological properties… For me it’s a death sentence. Once you put a plant and its ingredients into DEA Schedule 1, it’s very hard to do research on it, and it will become very hard to move forward with any positive developments because there is such a stigma associated.”​

Cannabis suffers from the same issue. Hundreds of thousands of Americans, maybe more, are already buying it legally and illegally and are using it for various health conditions. The active ingredients in cannabis really need to be studied for safety and efficacy, so that the beneficial components can be standardized and then marketed through legal medical channels. But leaving it in Schedule I makes it logistically very difficult for researchers to do such studies.

According to the quoted article, the kratom action is temporary, for two years, during which time the government is supposed to decide whether to leave it there, or reclassify it to allow research to be done.

 

[Finley]

Good point made by this pharmacologist:

“There needs to be some oversight as to what kind of products are being sold in the interest of consumer safety,” Oliver Grundmann, a pharmacologist at the University of Florida, told STAT in late July, a month before the DEA’s announcement.

He added, though, that he is “not necessarily saying that everything related to the plant should be put in Schedule 1. We have seen the damage that that can do to a drug with promising pharmacological properties… For me it’s a death sentence. Once you put a plant and its ingredients into DEA Schedule 1, it’s very hard to do research on it, and it will become very hard to move forward with any positive developments because there is such a stigma associated.”​

Cannabis suffers from the same issue. Hundreds of thousands of Americans, maybe more, are already buying it legally and illegally and are using it for various health conditions. The active ingredients in cannabis really need to be studied for safety and efficacy, so that the beneficial components can be standardized and then marketed through legal medical channels. But leaving it in Schedule I makes it logistically very difficult for researchers to do such studies.

According to the quoted article, the kratom action is temporary, for two years, during which time the government is supposed to decide whether to leave it there, or reclassify it to allow research to be done.

With how the DEA has been acting (stating that Kratom doesn't fall under the subsection that requires public commentary before enacting these things, they said it was a public health hazard and emergency and required no comment) I wouldn't be surprised if it will be permanently placed on the Schedule 1 list before the 2 years is up.

 

[Shaun__]

The active ingredients in cannabis really need to be studied for safety and efficacy, so that the beneficial components can be standardized and then marketed through legal medical channels.

Or they could just let people use the plant that grows in the ground, instead of making side effect ridilled drugs.

 

[Mikey_P]

Is it too late to bulk order and store up?

 

[Osmia]

Or they could just let people use the plant that grows in the ground, instead of making side effect ridilled drugs.

Most likely the government is targeting those who commercially grow/sell/distribute. There's not much they could do, as a practical matter, to prevent individuals growing their own supply.

A former GF of mine swears by the stuff. She used it for severe back pain before surgery was done.

 

[Osmia]

I decided to read the Federal Register notice about this proposed action (published on August 31). It's interesting reading (sort of), and explains in great detail the DEA's rationales for the choices they made.

Two things jump out at me:

(1) The classification of kratom as a Schedule I drug was based on health risks of using kratom, and abuse potential. The health risks and morbidity statistics are presented in exhaustive detail. Apparently, the problem has become much worse just this year. However, there's very little discussion or recognition of the countervailing health benefits of kratom (pain control, etc.). I've never used kratom, and I know one person who has used it, plus the people on this forum, who seem to be using it for medical reasons, not abusing it. It would be interesting to get the perspective of a medical professional; e.g., someone who works in an ER.

(2) In these proposed rulemakings, federal agencies normally leave it open for awhile for public/stakeholder comment. Then, they issue the final rule, which takes into account those comments, and in a lengthy preamble, they will list the most substantive comments, and explain how the final rule was arrived at in view of those comments. In the kratom action, they invoked some administrative provisions to cancel the public comment period. There's nothing illegal about this--they have the discretionary authority to do this as long as they follow the necessary administrative procedures. The Federal Register notice describes those justifications, and they are based on what the DEA describes as an urgent health/abuse crisis.

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-of-mitragynine-and-7-hydroxymitragynine-into