College degree - Worth it?

[JerryBoBerry]

I stumbled across an interesting article that got me thinking. For some time now it seems [most] college degrees, here in America, really aren't worth going for. Speaking in a return on investment sort of level.

I recently discovered one of the reasons college costs are so high. Textbook makers are simply robbing students. By that I mean they are charging outrageous prices for books. I had to order a differential equations book for an online class. The colleges bookstore wanted $298 for it, Amazon's cheapest price (for new) was $230. So I decided to search on the internet. I stumbled across 'International Editions.' These are the same content in the book but that publisher gives it a different cover and ISBN number, and usually prints it on thinner paper and in paperback form, but the same material. I found that Diff. Eq. book and ordered it in from Bangkok. The price including 4 day shipping to get to me was $48.

In case that was just a fluke I looked up several other textbooks ranging in subjects from calculus, physics, statics to chemistry and aerodynamics. ALL were under $50. One book that runs $250 here I found in India for $16.93.

The publishing company isn't going to sell those books at a loss to anyone, so that suggests under fifty bucks still leaves them with a reasonable profit margin. That can only mean the $300 they charge American students is downright gouging.

So running across this article kind of hammered it all home for me. If you're still reading this post take a look and see if you think it's really worth it.http://endoftheamericandream.com/ar...ation-in-america-is-a-giant-money-making-scam

I'm guessing some of the more specialty degrees in the sciences (chemistry, physics, nuclear, petroleum, aerospace...) would still be worth the cost. But honestly some of the more common ones I can't see it worth going for anymore. Liberal Arts, History, Music, Teaching... Will the quality of life be better by NOT having the debt associated with getting those degrees?

 

[CharlotteLace]

It's not just the textbooks- the heart of the matter lies in tuition inflation, and the educational system's emphasis on student loans to bridge the gap between reasonable tuition and the actual tuition rates in place.

"When the government made it exceptionally easy for students to borrow massive amounts of money, the colleges followed the lead by increasing their tuition rates. This combination led to record-level borrowing. "

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Articles/Education_Inflation.asp

Tuition has skyrocketed in comparison to normal economic inflation. It's saddening to realize that college is all too often a scam to make money.

Personally, I regret going. My 2 years of transferable credits at a community college? Got cut down to 34 transferable credits (1 years' worth of schooling) when I moved to a university to finish my degree. My out-of-state tuition was so high, my 10k scholarship barely scratched the surface of my tuition costs. I still have 11 grand in student loans, and it's only so low comparatively because I had to declare bankruptcy and drop out. I have friends that finished that same degree, and they're working in call centers.

I only regret falling for the college dream, when a technical school or apprenticeship would have gotten me much further.


(Note: I think community college is a much better deal though. $20 a credit, as opposed to $50-80 for an in-state kid at a 4-year? You don't need to major in accounting to see that discrepancy.)

 

[JerryBoBerry]

(Note: I think community college is a much better deal though. $20 a credit, as opposed to $50-80 for an in-state kid at a 4-year? You don't need to major in accounting to see that discrepancy.)

I would kill for those prices right now (figuratively). The 4 year I go to, currently, charges $265 a credit (plus an additional fee of, on average, $65 fee for all engineering courses). And i live in state. It's triple that for out of state kids. I'm taking loans for everything so by the time i'm finished with the 4 year degree I expect to be looking at around 88 grand in loans. (where's that dog faint emote from mfc when you need it).

My niece just started college last year. She's going for teaching. I honestly tried to talk her out of it.

 

[zippypinhead]

I have a real problem with the American method of measuring the value of anything and everything based solely upon economic criteria in dollar amounts. I have fostered a particularly healthy pet peeve for the way this measurement has driven the conversation about education. It has taken on a decidedly anti-education and anti-intellectual flavor that I find to be particularly dangerous to our culture.

Is college expensive? It can be. Are textbooks way overpriced? Definitely. Is college worth it? FUCK. YES. I say this as a person who will be graduating with decidedly the most "useless" degree out there, a Bachelor of Fine Arts focusing on studio art, and an accrued student loan debt of about $50,000.

So, why would I so staunchly defend a higher education, since all of these daily articles proclaiming "scam!" and "not worth it!" have doomed me to a debtor's prison and an early grave because I had the stupidity and audacity to go to school for anything other than a STEM field? It's because I lived into my early 30's without a higher education, and contrary to popular belief, there is a ceiling that exists, and if you try to climb certain social ladders without a college diploma, you're just going to end up bumping your head and falling.

It's a sad reality of our social order that one must learn early in life to deal with inflation, debt, and compound interest. The question a person must ask is whether the debt is in service to a good investment. Is a new car every five years a good investment? Is a house mortgage? Is that trip to Las Vegas? When measured against the opportunities that a degree should afford you, then the big debt load is probably worth it. Education is something that can't be repossessed. And if you treat it as more than something you do in your early 20's to pass the time until you "grow up" and you understand that a diploma is not just a magical piece of paper that solves all your career worries -- if you understand that time in college is when you should be making connections and building your experience base, and that a degree is a tool, not a goal -- then I have a hard time seeing situations where an education earned is not "worth it."

That isn't to say that there are a lot of problems facing new graduates. Constant economic flux featuring an ongoing employment stagnation, a workforce full of Boomers who refuse to retire and GenXers who are just getting going, a lot of excessive costs which are shouldered by inexperienced young adults, and so on. But these are all greater forces that will not and cannot be solved, and indeed would be incredibly exacerbated by convincing people that going to college is a mistake. I'm not one to get too conspiratorial about it, but given that the prevailing answer that these damned articles come up with is essentially, "college is expensive, so don't go," I have to wonder what place this is coming from. Why are we not talking about capping costs, extending loan forgiveness, bolstering federal aid, or other approaches to reform, rather than calling it a scam and telling everyone to stay away. To me, that smacks of some kind of nefarious classism, but again, I'm not going to be putting on my tinfoil hat. All I know is that the prospect of fostering an uneducated workforce in a global economy is kind of fucked up.

 

[BlueViolet]

(Note: I think community college is a much better deal though. $20 a credit, as opposed to $50-80 for an in-state kid at a 4-year? You don't need to major in accounting to see that discrepancy.)

I would kill for those prices right now (figuratively). The 4 year I go to, currently, charges $265 a credit (plus an additional fee of, on average, $65 fee for all engineering courses). And i live in state. It's triple that for out of state kids. I'm taking loans for everything so by the time i'm finished with the 4 year degree I expect to be looking at around 88 grand in loans. (where's that dog faint emote from mfc when you need it).

My niece just started college last year. She's going for teaching. I honestly tried to talk her out of it.

Yeah, I was just about to say... I'm planning on going back to finish my Bachelors, and I haven't seen anything for under $240 per credit. The community college is about $150 per credit before financial aid, though it's about $60 per credit with financial aid for in-state.

You can get a TEACH grant and loan forgiveness if you agree to teach at a low-income school in a high-need field (math, reading, science, special education, foreign language, ESL/bilingual education, and a few others) for about 5 years within 8 years of graduating. Four years for the TEACH grant, 5 for the loan forgiveness. Low income can mean rural, so it doesn't mean she'd have to teach at an inner city school in New York or D.C. or something.

 

[AwesomeKate]

This says it better than I ever could.

 

[GemmaMarie]

Yes & No.

In the end-- none of this matters. The only thing that matters is "how do you plan to use the degree?".

For some, even some of the more common "disregarded" degree's are definitely worth it, and for some it is not. I don't feel this is a discussion that can come down a simple yes or no answer. It entirely depends on the person and their ambitions. Period. All this conspiracy and inflation can be as true as the sun is bright, but a degree is still necessary for some careers and for many's futures and completely useless for others. Everyone tries to argues this "Is a college degree is worth it" and everyone comes up with all these frivolous answers but seem to disregard that absolutely none of this philosophy matters in some tracts because some careers require it. What needs to be said of this is less conspiracy and frivolous "over educated" I have nothing better to do than this philosophizing and more needs to be said that one should simply research what they want and what is actually required to achieve it.

 

[BlueViolet]

one should simply research what they want and what is actually required to achieve it.

Exactly. You don't have to have a college degree for many careers, especially if you are working for yourself--but for other careers, you absolutely need a degree. It sucks that you have to spend so much on a degree, but for some ambitions, you really have no other choice.

 

[GemmaMarie]

one should simply research what they want and what is actually required to achieve it.

Exactly. You don't have to have a college degree for many careers, especially if you are working for yourself--but for other careers, you absolutely need a degree. It sucks that you have to spend so much on a degree, but for some ambitions, you really have no other choice.

Well.. that's both true and not true as far as the working for yourself part. I know quite a few people who spent the money on a business in entrepreneurship degree that it has paid off. Lots of people want to work for themselves, but few possess the skills to do so without further guidance (such as is the case in those who get their BS/BA in business).. It's not just the degree but also the skill set of the person in this case. Not everyone can just say I will own my business/work for myself and do so successfully without guidance and I don't think creating this illusion in people that it's easy without some further form of education is wise either.

 

[BlueViolet]

one should simply research what they want and what is actually required to achieve it.

Exactly. You don't have to have a college degree for many careers, especially if you are working for yourself--but for other careers, you absolutely need a degree. It sucks that you have to spend so much on a degree, but for some ambitions, you really have no other choice.

Well.. that's both true and not true as far as the working for yourself part. I know quite a few people who spent the money on a business in entrepreneurship degree that it has paid off. Lots of people want to work for themselves, but few possess the skills to do so without further guidance (such as is the case in those who get their BS/BA in business).. It's not just the degree but also the skill set of the person in this case. Not everyone can just say I will own my business/work for myself and do so successfully without guidance and I don't think creating this illusion in people that it's easy without some further form of education is wise either.

I wasn't trying to imply that you need no education to work for yourself. I was only saying that it is much easier to work for yourself without formal education rather than trying to get a job that requires a BA in something in particular. I plan on owning a farm one day and I do not need formal education for that, but I will be educating myself on the many aspects of farming through life experience with working with family and friends who do own a farm.

A lot of working for yourself can be done through self-education and without the need of formal education. You can be an amazing artist who has never attended college but extensively practice and make art, study other styles, and learn how to use other techniques yourself. Although a degree looks good and formal education can open connections, sometimes your portfolio is all you need for many things such as mural work, certain design, etc. Same with photography. If you are working with independent clients, they care more about what you can do rather than your education, and there are so many ways to self educate yourself.

Now, for the business aspect of working for yourself, of course taking classes in business can help you gain life skills such as communicating and negotiating and well as learning the ins and outs of opening your own business and working for yourself in a professional and organized manner. I also strongly believe that you do not need to go to school to learn those skills or information and be successful considering how much free information is out there to educate yourself with, but for some people it might make it easier.

 

[Aella]

I'm 21, dropped out of college due to lack of funds, and consider this to be the best decision I ever made.

Because now I can live in a box on the street and be okay. I can go to Thailand and live in an apartment for 400 a month and be okay. I can lose the entirety of my income, move into my parents' house (god no), and be okay.

I am absolutely and completely free from any sort of obligation to continue maintaining a high-paying job, which comes from having a high amount of student debt. Sure, if you pay a lot of money you get a degree which gets you a job that pays a lot of money - but then you have to continue getting jobs that pay a lot of money, and you can't lose them.

And I think the freedom to be able to lose your job is absolutely beautiful. I owe nobody anything, and I wouldn't sacrifice that for the world.

Plus I'm working on educating myself to the level of a college degree, just to put an extra 'fuck you' into the school system. We have the internet now. There is no excuse.

 

[Shaun__]

The Supreme Court said this year that selling international versions of text books that you imported is legal, despite the publishers saying it was a violation of their copy rights. That may help drive down the cost of text books in the future.

I do not think a degree is worth what colleges charge for them, and that is why I do not have one. I wasted so much of my life in school learning the same shit over and over again every year, and had no desire to pay for the privilege of doing it for several more years. Most of college is geared to get your money, not give you a useful education that will prepare you for your future. An intelligent person that is self motivated can do just as well or better in many ways without their help.

I have cut several possible career options off as a result of my decision, due to the degree requirements they have to apply. I also get a lot of snobby people looking down their nose at me as well. My nice paycheck helps soothe my tortured soul though, so it is all good.

 

[zippypinhead]

I do have one caveat to my little rant:

I don't think that pushing children into deciding the course of their future and going into debt in order to pursue it is a good thing. Gone are the days where entering college at 18, entering the workforce in your early 20's, and staying with one job for thirty years is a realistic path to take, but we still have kids convinced that that's what it's like. I'm all for people taking time between high school and college to grow up, get their heads on straight, have adventures, work shit jobs, and otherwise gain experience. Who you are at 20 is not who you will be at 35. Waiting to see where your interests really can lead you, and gaining the insight that only life experience can give you is an incredibly powerful thing when paired with an education. But this perpetuated lie that "college" means only private or state four-year university experiences, and that one must hold a diploma before they're 25 is really a big part of the problem with the mess that is our current higher education system. There are too many options out there, and it takes a bit of living and looking around, I think, to really be able to take it all in and make the right decision.

I know that the 17-year-old me was a terrible student, and wouldn't have even been able to fathom taking an educational route that means I'd be applying to graduate schools. I also know that I'm really glad all of my 17-year-old ambitions and decisions fell apart, so that I could get to where I am now.

 

[LuckySmiles]

I agree with this a fuckton ^^^

I was only the second person in a big fam to graduate college, and the first to do it in 4 years. I thought that was all I had to do lol.
I went to college when I was 18 and I was kind of an asshole when I was 18 lol. I mean I was a nerdy when I was small like I got the math award in school when I was 14 but had straight C's in calculus my senior year cause I didn't give a fuuuu.
Also in college I picked one of those "liberal artsy" degrees because it was easy and I was good at it... but...I basically passed with my eyes closed. I kick myself for not taking ANY math or science courses in college as those are what I'd need now in fields I consider going back for. College is great for opening your mind, and if you have a career path. I loved college and I learned a lot. I lived at school and mine was particularly diverse in cultures, and Iived with so many different people which is a fun part of school that not everyone gets to experience but is good for life skills.

But I didn't have a career path. So I didn't put that much effort in just kinda coasted by. And my degree isn't worth very much. Especially since its concentrated in mass media and journalism, which in 10 years has completely changed. So there's that.

I've only had two well paying "real jobs" I think they're called, since graduating college (like a 9-5 type) And neither had anything to do with my degree but I got the jobs because I had one, so that counts.
I've also had more fun, and made more money working jobs that required no degree. Mainly managing small businesses for very wealthy owners that could barely spell :lol:

I was fortunate to never have much debt. My school wasn't very expensive. less than $25,000 in tuition for 4 years. I liked college, but I don't think I needed to go straight out of high school since my particular degree has had very little to do with any jobs I've had.

 

[LadyLuna]

Education and schooling are two completely different things. The biggest problem we have in this world is that we equate the two. It is entirely possible to get a better education outside of the school system than inside it, and this includes college.

You say there is a ceiling if you don't get a college degree. I say that a friend of mine from high school was hired on as a computer guy right out of high school with no college whatsoever. Now, he runs servers for hospitals in his state. I'm fairly sure he never did go to college. How did this happen? He had essentially been the neighborhood IT guy all through middle school and college, and the owner of a company found out. The owner hired him because of that.

For some people, going to college is definitely worth it. For others, going to college definitely isn't. For me, it was worth it, despite being saddled with about $50k in college loan debt (which I'm unable to pay back at this time, despite what it looks like to them on paper). Why? Because I needed that time to grow up. And I needed the friends I gained in college to help me "leave the nest", and rebel against my over-protective adoptive parents.

 

[Kradek]

Tuition/fees at the university I attended (some time ago) for the 2013/2014 school year is $62,032.

That's absurd.

Is it worth it? That entirely depends. It's primarily an engineering school; to get a job in engineering you generally need a degree, and in many cases need a PE beyond that. So simply in order to do that kind of work it's probably worth it.

If you go the comp sci route like I did, however, I don't really think it's worth it. As someone who hires comp sci people, your education is one of the last things I look at. I'm far more interested in what you have done and what you can do.

My take in general is a hard core STEM curriculum is probably worth it. But getting a degree in humanities or art or certain things like computer science (if you're just looking for development work vs actually going into research) you can probably spend that money elsewhere.

 

[Alana Cruise]

My college degree as far as the education is helpful with a lot of things but as far as the degree getting me better jobs...no. Depends on what you want to do. For me I make way more money masturbating on cam and I like to do it!!

 

[LindseyDoll]

Going to university loaded me with debt and didn't really teach me anything I didn't study on my own out if interest anyway.
For me it turned into one big clusterfuck and it was so not worth it.

 

[trotskyleon]

The reality is most dont know what to do with their life when they are 16. So often have to rely on family and friends for guidance. Depending on what environment you grow up in they might push you to go to college or not.

One thing is for certain having degree will open up more oppurtinities. And its better to do it when you are young and when you have no responsibilities.

I certainly agree with zippypinheads.

As for cost - sure the course fees are ridicously expensive. But for textbooks - buy second hand or share, or borrow from the library (hehe things which i did while I was at uni). Often..paying late fees to the library still works out cheaper :lol:.

 

[Sevrin]

“If you don't know what you want," the doorman said, "you end up with a lot you don't.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club

I don't think anyone should go to college unless they know why they are doing it. I dropped out in the middle of college and worked for a bit before going back to take courses part time. I was far more focused when I returned to school, and I could relate what I was learning to the "real" world. I ended up not finishing a degree, but everything I learned ended up being of use to me.

OTOH, academics isn't for everyone. A lot of people pursuing degrees would be better off going to a trade school. They'd probably make more money, and be happier, too.

 

[Red7227]

Well as I live a country that isn't the USA, I went to Uni for 7 years, got 2 degrees and it cost sweet fuck all. I had about $20,000 in fees when i finished, but I only pay a small percentage (1.5%) of my wage towards that as long as I'm making more than $20,000 a year. I might pay it off one day, or I might not.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Everyones situation will obviously vary but I think it was worth it. I didn't have to pay, it's what everyone I knew was doing, parents would of been pissed if I didn't,met some awesome people/connections, had quality job offers before I even finished, and it's a requirement for pretty much every job that interested me. Add in all the women, the games, the parties and it easily becomes worth it.

 

[PunkInDrublic]

Relevant


We get told to decide. Just like as if I'm not gonna change my mind.

 

[LuckySmiles]

Also just for the record I didn't want to college when I did, I think wanting to go makes a big difference. I just didn't know what I was supposed to do. So I went. And I literally at 18 wanted to move to California and cover myself in tattoos and listen to Sublime all day... but I literally would tell people, "If I go there, I'm just going to end up in porn" and I "wasn't supposed to do that"...
So...IDK.. don't listen to me :whistle:
If I had the courage to get it out of my system just bang out some stuff when I was 18... I might be a rich doctor already by now and/or a rich porn lady.

You live. You learn. Go to school...don't... but I think as long as it's what you want to do.. you'll be fine...
Lot's of people go to college because they think they "have to" as oppose to it being what they want, and that's the problem. You get less out of it if it feels like an obligation.

 

[LucyLegz]

I have been asking myself lately if it is indeed worth it. I am taking classes online now and struggling with knowing when I am all done I will have a huge debt that I will have to pay off. Will it be worth it when I am done? I hope so, I know if this was me right after high school heck no it would not have been worth the debt. I did not know what I wanted to do career wise back then and only have a hunch that the classes I am taking now will help be either run my own business or land a decent job where I don't feel like I am the smartest one working(office jobs and warehouse jobs). I went back to school to get away from the type of work I normally do. I have learned a great deal and have already applied what I have learned to get started being my own boss.

The thing that bothers me about college and the tuition that we have to pay, and what we end up getting out of it. Right now I have 2 more months and I have earned my associates degree, and my "progression counselor" calls me up to let me know that I am only a few credits away from completing my current program and what are my plans for the future. They are helping me get my resume together and going to help with job placement, but they are strongly encouraging that I keep going to school to get my bachelors. I am all for it at first because I WANT to know more about my field. But I want to learn more in person, not online learning. There are just some things that I learn better in person. But the bad thing is that I might not be able to take classes on a campus due to the availability, which I understand. But the cost of learning on campus versus online learning is about 9k less. So I have to pay more to learn on my own, and that kinda sits wrong with me.

That doesn't seem right at all and is making me question if I should keep going or if I can online learn somewhere less expensive. I don't understand why is it such a huge difference. I am doing all the work and the instructors they hire have said that they are there to "facilitate" and overlook our progress but it is up to us to make sure that we complete our work. Some instructors are better than others and actually give helpful information and guide you in the right way, but I am looking at this as a major expense too. Am I getting my monies worth at this point. I am making the best of it while I finish up my degree now and have plans to keep researching what are my options from here, but I will not be taking any more sales calls from my "progression counselor" anymore.

 

[emptiedglass]

Like many others, I felt that I "had" to go the university route. Long story short, it was the first of many unwise career moves.
To this day, I still don't know "what I want to be when I grow up." It took me until very recently to finally be ok with that.
What's most important to me now is a job that I can enjoy (or at least, not hate!), and pays enough to allow a half-decent standard of living. Job stability would be nice, too, but that's really becoming a thing of the past.
Someone close to me recently spent some money to get their A+ certification, and so far has only been able to find minimum-wage jobs. Meanwhile, "uneducated" people are getting factory or warehouse jobs that pay much better... sad but true.

 

[emptiedglass]

I'm 21, dropped out of college due to lack of funds, and consider this to be the best decision I ever made.

Because now I can live in a box on the street and be okay. I can go to Thailand and live in an apartment for 400 a month and be okay. I can lose the entirety of my income, move into my parents' house (god no), and be okay.

I am absolutely and completely free from any sort of obligation to continue maintaining a high-paying job, which comes from having a high amount of student debt. Sure, if you pay a lot of money you get a degree which gets you a job that pays a lot of money - but then you have to continue getting jobs that pay a lot of money, and you can't lose them.

And I think the freedom to be able to lose your job is absolutely beautiful. I owe nobody anything, and I wouldn't sacrifice that for the world.

Plus I'm working on educating myself to the level of a college degree, just to put an extra 'fuck you' into the school system. We have the internet now. There is no excuse.

I wish I had been as wise as you are when I was 21.
However, the internet was very much in its infancy back then... :lol:

 

[Red7227]

Like many others, I felt that I "had" to go the university route. Long story short, it was the first of many unwise career moves.
To this day, I still don't know "what I want to be when I grow up." It took me until very recently to finally be ok with that.
What's most important to me now is a job that I can enjoy (or at least, not hate!), and pays enough to allow a half-decent standard of living. Job stability would be nice, too, but that's really becoming a thing of the past.
Someone close to me recently spent some money to get their A+ certification, and so far has only been able to find minimum-wage jobs. Meanwhile, "uneducated" people are getting factory or warehouse jobs that pay much better... sad but true.

Education is wasted on the young. I went to uni at 35, and it was much better for me. When you leave school, sponge off your parents, travel the world and fuck up everything (you will anyway whether you plan to or not). When you eventually get settled into you life, then think if further education is for you. Uni was the best thing I ever did, and it made absolutely no difference to my employment prospects. Uni is a great experience that will expand your world view and make you a far better person, it will however teach you fuck all that is good for anything.

 

[Just Me]

I think that technical schools, apprenticeships, military, and on the job training should have some more emphasis placed on them. They should not be treated like they are failures because you did not, could not or did not want to go to college. For some career paths, college is the only option but most of those careers will allow you to pay back your student loan debt in a reasonable amount of time because those jobs pay well. "Everyone that wants to go to college, should be able to" is really a stupid idea and just political rhetoric because not everyone should go to college, even if they want to. Many just don't belong there.

 

[emptiedglass]

Education is wasted on the young. I went to uni at 35, and it was much better for me. When you leave school, sponge off your parents, travel the world and fuck up everything (you will anyway whether you plan to or not). When you eventually get settled into you life, then think if further education is for you. Uni was the best thing I ever did, and it made absolutely no difference to my employment prospects. Uni is a great experience that will expand your world view and make you a far better person, it will however teach you fuck all that is good for anything.

I should clarify. For me, it was as though anything less than a university education would be frowned upon by those around me. I don't regret the personal growth or amazing people I met during my time there. I regret having spent a ridiculous amount of money on a career path that didn't pan out, because "you can do better than college." Personally, I think if I had allowed myself to consider college as an option, instead of letting myself be influenced too much by others, I could have made some better career choices and saved myself a ton of money (both in tuition and living expenses, as there's a college campus here that offers a fair selection of courses).
If only I knew then what I know now. :lol: