Cam Model Recognition Site - Being Developed

[KOTJ74]

Hey all,

After much consideration, I have decided to develop a cam model recognition site. If all goes well, I hope to launch it on Jan 1st, 2016. It seems like a great time to start, and it'll probably take at least three weeks to gather every thing I need and develop it.

The reason I am doing this is because I have been active in the cam modeling community for many years, and I want to give something back to it beyond just tipping. I've made many friends over the years, both models and members, and I feel like not much recognition is given to some of the models who are just amazing at what they do.

One of the major features of the site will be about model recognition based on user experience, and a monthly prize will be offered to a model not based on cam score or rank. There will be a nomination system set up and the final decision each month will be based on a site panel that will vote on those who are nominated. Models will not be able to nominate themselves, but other models and members will be able to nominate them. There will be a multi-round voting system (At least two rounds) by the panel. The first round will establish the candidates for the final voting. The second round will determine the winner for a particular month, and subsequent rounds will be used as tie-breakers if necessary.

The site will be non-nude. This is partly to keep it legitimate and not to give an advantage to nude models over non-nude models. However, linking will be allowed to give the community a choice as to whether they want to view more content of a model outside of the site. Modeling photos will be allowed. However, any photos will either need to be uploaded by a particular model or permission given by them. Photos will also be locked out from users saving them to prevent unwanted use of said material. Copyrights will also be enforced.

There will be a recognition system for models that contribute to the modeling community even if they do not receive nominations. There will also be limitations put on this so that visitors, and even models, cannot continually promote a model with multiple accounts.

3 Things I Need

1. I need to find people who would be interested in being involved on the voting panel. I don't mind models volunteering, but they would not be able to receive nominations because it would be a conflict of interest. Also, for anybody interested, any type of credentials would also be helpful. I don't need personal information, but I do need to know why a person would be a good fit, since I want to avoid bias as much as possible.

2. I need feedback. Things people would like to see incorporated or concerns that exist. There are things that will not initially be mentioned in this thread because it's way too complex of a process to list everything without writing more of a book than what I'm already doing.

3. I would like to get at least two models to do concept modeling photos for the site. These will be used exclusively for site branding and promotion. In terms of photos, transparent png files would be awesome so I can do layovers on anything, but this may be difficult for some, so I am just as willing to purchase photos taken with a horizontal orientation. Please keep in mind that I am purchasing the actual photos and not just use of them. However, I will establish an agreement with the model that they will only be used for the site and not be resold. Also, I will offer a buyback option, at the purchase price, to the model if she decides she doesn't want her photos used for the site branding at any given time, but will also need a grace period before I can release them so I have time to re-brand the site with different photos. I can do payment two ways. The first option would be a direct payment through Paypal. I understand many do not know me and may not be comfortable with this, so I am also willing to provide payment through a site such as Freelancer or Odesk, which is more secure. Just keep in mind that these sites do take a small portion of the payment, but usually it isn't much. I also have an established account on both these sites, so you can verify that I have paid freelancers for similar work before without any hassle. If you're interested, please contact me and we can go over concept and payment. Please keep in mind that I may not hire you for freelance modeling work if someone else offers something similar for less.

(If someone feels they can add something else, please feel free to let me know)

Nomination System

I am considering two options. The first would be just a standard explanation by someone as to why they are nominating the model with a word limit. The second option would be video nominations by users who want to make a short video detailing the nomination. Either way, I'm going to limit length, as to give everybody a fair chance. If Bob does a 5 minute video on why such and such is awesome, and John does a one minute video about a different model, of course model A is going to sound better. I definitely want to avoid this.

Prize System

Starting off the minimum prize will be $100 to the winner that I will throw into the kitty. I may do more, and others will be welcome to contribute as well. As the site progresses, I expect the monthly payout to increase, but even if nobody else wants to contribute, at least that covers a bill or two...maybe.

If it really takes off, I may restructure it a bit so that more than one model can win, or split it into several categories.

Site e-mail address is non-disclosed at this time. Please contact me through this site if you are interested in being involved. I also can be found on MFC throughout the day as KOTJ74. You may contact me through there as well.

All feedback is welcome and appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Zoomer]

Feedback:

1) Where's the mock-up and/or demo site? It's needed as no-one can really understand the description - and you're asking people for pics for promo work. Don't ask people for to start contributing (photos) if you're not giving them an indication of your commitment and/or abilities - one of the most basic things. Get it up and functioning (well enough at least) and then ask for more.

2) What's the motivation for involvement (especially over a prolonged period)? I don't personally see the point* in the site you describe. MyCamGirl had something similar at one time I believe. But what is going to make people want to come back? Hell, what's going to make them want to even visit it in the first place? I don't understand the lure to the users as it doesn't appear to offer anything useful to me.

3) How will the prize money be funded in the future?

4) Copyrights will be enforced? How... as soon as people start with this sort of thing I ask questions. The reason is simple - what's your background, your ability, level of commitment and more. Enforcing copyrights isn't a case of snapping fingers, and to believe this you'd need to have capital and expertise.

5) You've never interacted with a models "fans" nor their "detractors" have you I put those in quotes because both sets are utterly horrible people when it comes to how they feel about certain models; it's unbelievable the lengths (or depths) they're willing to go to. I had to close comments off on websites simply because some people are, plainly, fucking nuts.

You may get some people coming and visiting, but they've got an agenda... and you may be surprised at just how fucking insane they are.


* For clarity, I also thought the iPad was a ridiculous idea - as neither a laptop nor a phone, and less use than either. I don't have a great track record of spotting good ideas

 

[Serenity_Tam]

Oh goodie, yet another site to arbitrarily tell us where we "rank" amongst other girls.

 

[Alisa]

2) What's the motivation for involvement (especially over a prolonged period)? I don't personally see the point* in the site you describe. MyCamGirl had something similar at one time I believe. But what is going to make people want to come back? Hell, what's going to make them want to even visit it in the first place? I don't understand the lure to the users as it doesn't appear to offer anything useful to me.

Exactly what I was typing. Why would camgirls be interested in being featured on this site (other than a small possibility of $100) and be ranked once again among other cam models. And why would users want to visit it?
MyCamgirl.net has the rating/reviewing system already.

 

[BiancaBaker]

All I will add to this is :

This is a terrible idea and here is why:

$100? who would want to fight over other models OVER $100? Also if girls can't nominate themselves- what is the point? there are many girls here who do not live cam and make clips full time or do independent skype shows that may not be on MFC (or streammate) that will never get nominated due to her/him not being on a cam site. Also most of us are nude models, yes there are girls who are non-nude but to make this a non-nude site is a fail from the beginning. If a girl decides she wants to sell nude photo's she should be able to. Why does nude modeling make a site less legit? thats ridiculous - cam sites HAVE nude girls on it (if not all of them) and they are very legit..

A girl in the Top 20 of MFC isn't going to be fighting over $100 or bring her regulars to a site like this (I use Top 20 for an example but anyone in the top 500-1000 even) there is literally no point. There is MyCamGirl and even though girls don't win $$$ everything you want to do is already on there and makes this site even more pointless.

 

[Poison_Ivy21]

Photos will also be locked out from users saving them to prevent unwanted use of said material. Copyrights will also be enforced.

I just want to point out that this is absolutely impossible. If you can see something on a screen, you can capture it. One way or another.

 

[caireen]

I just want to point out that this is absolutely impossible. If you can see something on a screen, you can capture it. One way or another.

Agree. Instagram doesn't let you save pictures but that doesn't stop me from screenshotting them constantly (for the record, mostly my own when I delete the original).

 

[Gen]

I really feel the best way to start a project like this, if your interest is in supporting/giving back to cam models, is to ask "is this something you want?" Overall so far the answer seems to be no.

Also like Bianca I'm kind of over people acting as if nudity on adult websites is a bad thing or will make your site about sexy Internet girls less legitimate.

 

[KOTJ74]

Zoomer,

1. There's no point in doing a mock-up site until I have whatever concept work I need. That's why I need to purchase it first. Also, I didn't ask anybody to simply contribute photos. I offered payment for them through legitimate freelancing platforms that have been around for years. It would be ridiculous for me to purchase concept modeling photos that are limited to branding and then not use them. I don't understand your reasoning behind this type of thinking, but please feel free to share. Another thing to keep in mind is that with concept photos a lot could very well depend on the model doing them, and how certain colors might compliment her, including her hair color, complexion, etc... This has to be noted before I start the build because I need to contrast the colors appropriately or else not only would the site look tacky, but her photos may look that way as well.

2. I've seen mycamgirl and the look/approach I am using isn't similar, because all my work is more minimalistic, which is exactly what a website should be if it's going to be successful and draw traffic. The problem with a site like that is the homepage is very bland, information isn't placed properly, there are inconsistent fonts, and the photo arrangements/sizing aren't very good. Anybody can see this simply by going to the site. I'm not saying it's not a good site, because I don't use it, but it could surely be optimized. Also, it's easy to drive traffic through good SEO practices, which include avoiding site penalties and appealing to multiple demographics. There are many ways to do this, but obviously I can't tell everything I do or it could lead to competition, which would be toxic to what I'm trying to establish. As far as motivation and being prolonged, well that involves more than just me. If people get involved, it's easier to continue with something. It's important that you understand that all good websites are an evolution, and they will continually change and be updated to accommodate the best standards and practices.

3. As I mentioned in the the OP, the bare minimum contribution will be $100 from my own pocket. However, if other people wish to contribute then that can always increase. If not, anything beyond $100 will just depend on how much extra I feel I can contribute in a given month. Please keep in mind, it's more than just me offering a set prize, but there are other investments as well. A site like this takes a bit of time to maintain, especially if I'm the only one maintaining it. It doesn't have to be like this, but it can be. In addition there are hosting and upgrade costs.

4. I do enforce copyrights and it's not as complicated as you think it is. But part of the reason for blocking people from saving photos is that it acts as a deterrent. Remember, the old saying, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." I've had concept work done in the past, and sometimes it is extremely expensive. With that being said, I don't want to put out the money just so Joe Schmoe can go put it on his site for free. And just to clarify more, with proper logging and security you can enforce copyright sometimes in less than 24 hours. I don't understand where you're coming up with the idea of needing capital to enforce. In fact, you actually don't need any capital in most case. Maybe you're thinking more of print publication?

5. As far as unwanted traffic, there are plenty of filtering options available. Personally, and this is just a suggestion, I would recommend adding rules to who can and who can't post to your sites. That way it will block people who may be posting garbage their first time on your site, but still allow for known friendly users to continue to post. This also helps to build traffic because people are able to engage your site more. In addition, when people leave comments, there are also log files that identify them, so you can simply block them from your site(s), even before their comment has a chance to go live.

I appreciate your feedback and I thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. Please feel free to ask any other questions you might have.

 

[KOTJ74]

Agree. Instagram doesn't let you save pictures but that doesn't stop me from screenshotting them constantly (for the record, mostly my own when I delete the original).

There are always ways that people will attempt to take information. However, a lot of times with concept work you can do things that make it less desirable. For example, you can do layers with images with objects, text, etc... that will make the image look terrible if the person screenshots and tries to crop it. If they don't, they just end up advertising for you. But yeah, you are right about this. Lots of underhanded people out there.

I really feel the best way to start a project like this, if your interest is in supporting/giving back to cam models, is to ask "is this something you want?" Overall so far the answer seems to be no.

Also like Bianca I'm kind of over people acting as if nudity on adult websites is a bad thing or will make your site about sexy Internet girls less legitimate.

There are only three people, aside form myself" that have posted in this forum and only you have given a definite "No." I've also talked to other people outside of this site as well, so I'm not limiting my view on what one or two people may say. Furthermore, not everybody has to be involved, but it's nice for those that are.

I'm also not trying to make a statement about "nudity" or even suggest that it is distasteful. However, it can be a very persuasive tool. One thing to remember about the Internet is that one of the biggest driving factors is choice. When you start to eliminate this by forcing people to view certain content, then they may quickly lose interest. However, if people have the choice to decide if they want to see nude photos of a model, then they have the option to use their link and go to another page. In addition, I'm not trying to develop a site with a bunch of women with pictures of themselves in mumus. There will definitely be a balance.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[KOTJ74]

Just to address a few things people have said, and because for some reason they didn't initially load, this is not an open ranking system.

 

[caireen]

There are always ways that people will attempt to take information. However, a lot of times with concept work you can do things that make it less desirable. For example, you can do layers with images with objects, text, etc... that will make the image look terrible if the person screenshots and tries to crop it. If they don't, they just end up advertising for you. But yeah, you are right about this. Lots of underhanded people out there.



There are only three people, aside form myself" that have posted in this forum and only you have given a definite "No." I've also talked to other people outside of this site as well, so I'm not limiting my view on what one or two people may say. Furthermore, not everybody has to be involved, but it's nice for those that are.

I'm also not trying to make a statement about "nudity" or even suggest that it is distasteful. However, it can be a very persuasive tool. One thing to remember about the Internet is that one of the biggest driving factors is choice. When you start to eliminate this by forcing people to view certain content, then they may quickly lose interest. However, if people have the choice to decide if they want to see nude photos of a model, then they have the option to use their link and go to another page. In addition, I'm not trying to develop a site with a bunch of women with pictures of themselves in mumus. There will definitely be a balance.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Another side to this is that by limiting women's ability to post nude photos you might drive away interest on the part of some cam models. For example, I am not much of a tease model and I don't shop much, so I don't take lots of pictures in cute outfits. I take nudes (when I take photos). I also don't have big boobs so like.. clothed boob pictures don't work for me. I have no cleavage. Nipple pics work for me.

So by restricting photos in order to make it "fair" for non-nude models, you might also be simultaneously making it unfair for the models that don't do the non-nude thing.

(Let me just mention that I don't in any way expect things to be "fair" but I do want to offer another perspective since you originally said you didn't want certain models to have an advantage).

 

[Teagan]

If they are going to a site for webcam models they most assuredly will see nudity and know that therefore are complete idiots to then act offended by it. Come on now. Both nude and non nude models are great but both know each other exist as do the ones who go to the sites they are on. I hardly see that as forcing someone to view certain content.

Either way though this sounds like a terrible idea, a complete waste of your time and money, and I see zero point to it to begin with. If you wanna contribute to the community just keep tipping. That tells a girl you appreciate her and recognize her more than this ever will.

 

[KOTJ74]

Another side to this is that by limiting women's ability to post nude photos you might drive away interest on the part of some cam models. For example, I am not much of a tease model and I don't shop much, so I don't take lots of pictures in cute outfits. I take nudes (when I take photos). I also don't have big boobs so like.. clothed boob pictures don't work for me. I have no cleavage. Nipple pics work for me.

So by restricting photos in order to make it "fair" for non-nude models, you might also be simultaneously making it unfair for the models that don't do the non-nude thing.

(Let me just mention that I don't in any way expect things to be "fair" but I do want to offer another perspective since you originally said you didn't want certain models to have an advantage).

Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I understand that certain things work well for you. However, being recognized would have nothing to do with your picture choices, since it's based on someone else's positive experience with you, and that's why a panel is also used.

 

[Gen]

I don't think I was the only no in this thread (though interesting that I didn't actually say no!), but alright. Good luck with your site and I hope you take to heart the feedback you're getting.

 

[KOTJ74]

If they are going to a site for webcam models they most assuredly will see nudity and know that therefore are complete idiots to then act offended by it. Come on now. Both nude and non nude models are great but both know each other exist as do the ones who go to the sites they are on. I hardly see that as forcing someone to view certain content.

Either way though this sounds like a terrible idea, a complete waste of your time and money, and I see zero point to it to begin with. If you wanna contribute to the community just keep tipping. That tells a girl you appreciate her and recognize her more than this ever will.

Again this comes down to choice which is one of the biggest driving forces behind the Internet. Also, even people who go to cam modeling, and other similar sites, aren't always interested in seeing someone nude all the time.

I'm gonna say this, and this is just from my own experience, but sometimes I just hang out on MFC and talk to friends without going into any of the rooms. It's not because I don't admire the models, but just because I'm not in the mood for it at a given time. That doesn't mean I don't tip through the PM window. I just may not be interested in seeing someone's "whatever" hanging out and I may be doing other things as well.

But yeah, thanks for your thoughts.

 

[KOTJ74]

I don't think I was the only no in this thread (though interesting that I didn't actually say no!), but alright. Good luck with your site and I hope you take to heart the feedback you're getting.

It's fine. I don't take offense to any of it and I felt your "No" was implied. Also, for some reason some of the posts didn't above yours didn't load for whatever reason, so I didn't know until after I responded.

 

[Serenity_Tam]

I'm going to make a site for cam girls to benefit you. But gosh darn cam girls if you tell me you don't like it doesn't matter because its going to be better for you!

 

[justjoinedtopost]

I have been toying with a similar idea myself. But it is not a model recognition site I dream of. Let's face it; the models that can get recognition wouldn't really benefit from such a site, and the models that lack recognition probably wouldn't know what to do with it if they got it.

Personally, I would like to shine a light on the most undesirable members of the camming community. The freeloaders...the beggars...the scammers...

My only fear is that, each month, it might result in the most egregious offender being nominated to be dragged from his bed in the middle of the night, taken to his front lawn where he would be beaten by an angry mob, then tarred and feathered (something I secretly fantasize about, though I dare not encourage for legal reasons).

I am also a little concerned that it might cause discrimination on a grand scale. These individuals might be forced to wear armbands to identify themselves in public. They might have severe restrictions placed on who they could marry, and who they could do business with. Worst case scenario, they might wind up being loaded into cattle cars and sent west for “resettlement”. Probably not a realistic worry, but every time I think about it, it plays out the same way in my head.

Meh. I see death2feetbeggars.com isn't available, so I will probably just let it go.

 

[KOTJ74]

I'm going to make a site for cam girls to benefit you. But gosh darn cam girls if you tell me you don't like it doesn't matter because its going to be better for you!

Where did I say I didn't care about people's opinions?

So many people in the world like to try to bring down others. It shouldn't be so, but it happens. But please, feel free to send more hate my way.

Also, it's a concept at this point, not a finished product. If people want to hate me and my ideas, then fine with me. I don't have to do it. Thank you for sharing though. Better to find out this way than not at all

 

[caireen]

Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I understand that certain things work well for you. However, being recognized would have nothing to do with your picture choices, since it's based on someone else's positive experience with you, and that's why a panel is also used.

So.. what is the purpose of pictures? Actually, I'm kind of confused about the purpose of the site in general, other than to give one cam model $100.

 

[JoleneBrody]

So you want to start a site dedicated to a monthly contest for camgirls, decided on by a small panel of "judges" ? Not even votes or traffic drivers?

I don't see the point. There area bunch of different vote based "best camgirl" type contest out there... a BUNCH! And the whole point is every model promoting herself to win votes is driving massive traffic to the site mostly via social media. This has the benefit of driving traffic to models and of course to the website itself which is likely benefiting from ads and affiliate programs.

You spent a lot time explaining things that weren't important and not much time explaining the actual point though, so maybe I'm misunderstanding something but as I see it, it seems pointless to all parties involved.

 

[Serenity_Tam]

Where did I say I didn't care about people's opinions?

So many people in the world like to try to bring down others. It shouldn't be so, but it happens. But please, feel free to send more hate my way.

Also, it's a concept at this point, not a finished product. If people want to hate me and my ideas, then fine with me. I don't have to do it. Thank you for sharing though. Better to find out this way than not at all

This wasn't intended to be hate. Sarcasm to make a point though? totally. It just seems like girls are giving you their opinions and you keep trying to justify why you are doing a thing, and it appears you aren't really listening or accepting feedback. I am often happy to be constructive here, but why bother when someone isn't actually listening to what is really being said.

 

[KOTJ74]

I have been toying with a similar idea myself. But it is not a model recognition site I dream of. Let's face it; the models that can get recognition wouldn't really benefit from such a site, and the models that lack recognition probably wouldn't know what to do with it if they got it.

Personally, I would like to shine a light on the most undesirable members of the camming community. The freeloaders...the beggars...the scammers...

My only fear is that, each month, it might result in the most egregious offender being nominated to be dragged from his bed in the middle of the night, taken to his front lawn where he would be beaten by an angry mob, then tarred and feathered (something I secretly fantasize about, though I dare not encourage for legal reasons).

I am also a little concerned that it might cause discrimination on a grand scale. These individuals might be forced to wear armbands to identify themselves in public. They might have severe restrictions placed on who they could marry, and who they could do business with. Worst case scenario, they might wind up being loaded into cattle cars and sent west for “resettlement”. Probably not a realistic worry, but every time I think about it, it plays out the same way in my head.

Meh. I see death2feetbeggars.com isn't available, so I will probably just let it go.

That, my friend, is a mess I would never even consider delving into. It would be impossible to try to maintain a friendly environment to those that cared, and you would forever be fighting off the scammers that had a clue about what they're doing. I've always been very cautious, but I will admit that I have been caught a couple times with scams that I would've never even thought of. It's also hard on other sites, outside of your own, because you never know what mechanisms are in place to eliminate these types of practices.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I'm confused.
What problem exactly are you trying to solve?
Top models don't get enough recognition? There aren't enough platforms for models to post pictures of themselves? Really what is the purpose?

 

[Teagan]

Where did I say I didn't care about people's opinions?

So many people in the world like to try to bring down others. It shouldn't be so, but it happens. But please, feel free to send more hate my way.

Also, it's a concept at this point, not a finished product. If people want to hate me and my ideas, then fine with me. I don't have to do it. Thank you for sharing though. Better to find out this way than not at all

Oh No. Were not trying to bring you down but just tell you that if you do this it is not going to go the way you hope it will. Personally im trying to save you the money and time invested in something that will fail. Trying to insinuate were just haters cause we dont like your idea isnt really gonna get you anywhere though except to be defensive. Youre getting feedback and just cause you dont like it doesnt make people haters. Youre also taking it personally which you shouldnt. Everyone has bad ideas.

 

[Lexi Emerson]

I personally feel like this isn't something the cam community needs. Like a lot of girls said, there are many other similar things out there. I think maybe it would be overshadowed anyways. But I think that it's cool that you seem to know some stuff about getting something started. Maybe if you came up with something else that could draw in girls better or would be more useful you'd have more support. Thanks for sharing this idea though. In theory it would be awesome if there just weren't so many similar things and if models could gain more from it, ya know?

 

[justjoinedtopost]

It would be impossible to try to maintain a friendly environment

Maintaining a friendly environment is not something I have any interest in doing.

you would forever be fighting off the scammers that had a clue about what they're doing.

This intrigues me. Could you possibly give me an example of what you mean?

 

[ComicOzzie]

Wouldn't it just be easier to tip the models?

 

[KOTJ74]

So you want to start a site dedicated to a monthly contest for camgirls, decided on by a small panel of "judges" ? Not even votes or traffic drivers?

I don't see the point. There area bunch of different vote based "best camgirl" type contest out there... a BUNCH! And the whole point is every model promoting herself to win votes is driving massive traffic to the site mostly via social media. This has the benefit of driving traffic to models and of course to the website itself which is likely benefiting from ads and affiliate programs.

You spent a lot time explaining things that weren't important and not much time explaining the actual point though, so maybe I'm misunderstanding something but as I see it, it seems pointless to all parties involved.

Thanks for sharing. I wouldn't do advertising because it mucks up sites. Something I do sometimes though is cross-affiliation promotions, but that's usually win-win since both sites are driving traffic to each other.

Also, I understand how these things may not be important to your perspective, but in terms of development, clarifying many of them upfront is necessary and common practice.

The actual point is trying to lift up models who care about the industry, and helping them to be recognized when most people may not even know their cam room exists.

I almost always like to speak from personal experience, so I will say this. Some of the most genuine models I've visited on the site(s) have crickets chirping in their room the majority of the time. They give 100 percent, 100 percent of the time, but nobody knows who they are, and oftentimes they fade off into the sunset.

Also, I know you do exceptionally well and that you've been around awhile, but this isn't true for everyone. Maybe what I attempted wasn't appealing to you, but it may have made a huge difference to someone else.

I certainly appreciate your thoughts.

This wasn't intended to be hate. Sarcasm to make a point though? totally. It just seems like girls are giving you their opinions and you keep trying to justify why you are doing a thing, and it appears you aren't really listening or accepting feedback. I am often happy to be constructive here, but why bother when someone isn't actually listening to what is really being said.

I am listening to opinions, but I'm also trying to dialogue as well. Sometimes things have to be looked at from more than one side to see the full picture. If I only ever focus on your reality, then how will you ever understand mine? Also, what's happening to me isn't necessarily fair, because everybody is trying to tell me my thinking is mucked up, instead of simply saying something like, "Thanks for caring enough to attempt something like this, but I don't think it's a good idea." The point being, I'm being shown no appreciation for caring even if the idea is a fail. But no matter, on to other things. Thanks for sharing.