Women's rights video "This Is My Body"

[Shaun__]

This Is My Body is a interesting short video on women's rights. I am amazed that the things in this video even need to be said at this point in history. It is like somebody is trying to wind back progress in my country back to the founding days.

 

[lordmagellan]

This seems like a good spot for a nice ethical debate about something I've always wondered about. And I'm most certainly NOT looking for bullshit grandstanding and insult slinging here.

While I agree whole-heartedly here about a woman's body being her own, and I do support her right to choose and abortion- even, sometimes in frivolous cases- where does a father's right come in? I remember a television show approached this, though I forget which. A couple hooked up one night, girl got pregnant, and decided she wanted an abortion. Baby daddy found out and didn't want his child killed, it was against his morals and ideals, and he actually wanted a child, with or without a mother, even going so far as to say she needn't be involved in the child's life. But since he wouldn't- couldn't shoulder the burden of carrying said offspring, he had no say in whether or not the pregnancy was terminated.

I've often wondered if this is right. Let's face it, many men are thrown under the bus of having to pay for a child they never wanted. And that certainly isn't to downplay the hardships faced by the mother, but if she decides he has to help in the welfare of the child, most of the time she gets her way (unless the guy avoids the system). The man tends to be told, "you should've thought of that before you let your dick lead you around," and yea, women get much the same. But the card's are all in her hands. If she wants to abort, she aborts. If she wants to carry to term, she carries to term. The father is left to her and the court's mercy- and the court is rarely merciful (from what I've seen).

So what do you people think?

A side note: not to take away from breast cancer, but apparently the number one killer of women is heart disease.
I link to TED because (a) everyone loves TED and (b) it's an eye-opening presentation on heart disease among women.

 

[TashaDutch]

i couldn't agree more.. i think its really weird that only women can deside..
every woman should take as much responsibility in getting pregnant as the man..
if its 'your own body' you should look after it!
to me this means.. not getting pregnant if you don't want to as well!
its not like its nearly impossible to prevent it..
if you're scared to get pregnant even tho you take the pill... use a condom! you should anyways with all the std's and that shit!

in my view abortions should be for rape victims, children, and the mentally challenged.
and i think the responsibility of parents in this is highly underestimated..
i was always educated about sex, pregnancies, and std's, but my lil sis allready had to take the morning after pill on two occacians.
since we come from the same parents, but i lived elsewhere most of my life, i can't help to think something went wrong at the education part..

i also don't think parents should leave the blame at schools... you brought your children to this planet.. you are the one to make sure they can succeed in life best possible!

EDIT: i just went really insane just there... i don't mean to hurt anyone.. but this view of mine.. was formed by the way i choose to live my life.. and seeing how others choose to live theirs..

 

[mynameisbob84]

You raise an interesting point, lordmagellan. I've always been pro-choice, but a lot of the reasoning behind that was down to it being utterly pointless forcing a woman to go through a pregnany, only for that kid to either wind up in care or be neglected. If the father actively wants to raise that kid in a loving environment, then... I guess that changes things somewhat.
And the whole 'man accidentally impregnates woman, is forced to pay child support forever more'; 'woman is accidentally impregnated by man, gets to choose what happens at every turn' thing does expose a double standard.
That's really the only instance I can think of where it's not a black and white case of 'if a woman wants to abort, she should be able to'.

 

[AllisonWilder]

I believe in first-trimester abortion for any woman that wants it, for whatever reason and not just because of rape, incest, mental illness or what have you. After all, it is our body even if at one point a guy was inside it for a while. I believe that late-term abortions should be given only in extreme cases where the woman could be in danger because once you're that far along you can easily go through the adoption process.

I'm a mom who almost went through with an abortion but decided against it because the guy that got me pregnant really wanted a child. I don't think this is a decision that should be made alone or impulsively because it's such a huge choice. I don't know if counseling is required before an abortion, but if it's not, then it should be. Lots of women have abortions because they just don't think they can take care of a kid, living inside them or after birth. I don't blame them at all. I wasn't forced to have my kid, the dad was fully supportive of my decision to have an abortion even though he didn't want it. If I had been pressured or bullied, I'm sure I would have gone through with an abortion because I was convinced I'd be a terrible parent and bullying doesn't help anyone.

I just want to add here, I know of women that have abortions so regularly they might as well have a punch card at the clinic. I hope that I don't offend anyone here, but this kind of behavior is disgusting to me. One abortion would be all I needed to get my head on straight and figure out some sort of proper birth control methods (birth control of some sort and condoms are useful here) and a backup plan (the morning after pill can be taken up to 72 hours later and still prove effective).

 

[Bocefish]

I just want to add here, I know of women that have abortions so regularly they might as well have a punch card at the clinic. I hope that I don't offend anyone here, but this kind of behavior is disgusting to me. One abortion would be all I needed to get my head on straight and figure out some sort of proper birth control methods (birth control of some sort and condoms are useful here) and a backup plan (the morning after pill can be taken up to 72 hours later and still prove effective).

Using abortions as birth control is deserving of abhorrence and scorn in my opinion. Women have access to a plethora of birth control measures, not to mention free condoms. Free abortions should be limited to one, after that the woman needs to take responsibility for HER body with the exception of rape.

 

[Bocefish]

I just want to add here, I know of women that have abortions so regularly they might as well have a punch card at the clinic. I hope that I don't offend anyone here, but this kind of behavior is disgusting to me. One abortion would be all I needed to get my head on straight and figure out some sort of proper birth control methods (birth control of some sort and condoms are useful here) and a backup plan (the morning after pill can be taken up to 72 hours later and still prove effective).

Using abortions as birth control is deserving of abhorrence and scorn in my opinion. Women have access to a plethora of birth control measures, not to mention free condoms. Free abortions should be limited to one, after that the woman needs to take responsibility for HER body with the exception of rape.

 

[AllisonWilder]

I just want to add here, I know of women that have abortions so regularly they might as well have a punch card at the clinic. I hope that I don't offend anyone here, but this kind of behavior is disgusting to me. One abortion would be all I needed to get my head on straight and figure out some sort of proper birth control methods (birth control of some sort and condoms are useful here) and a backup plan (the morning after pill can be taken up to 72 hours later and still prove effective).

Using abortions as birth control is deserving of abhorrence and scorn in my opinion. Women have access to a plethora of birth control measures, not to mention free condoms. Free abortions should be limited to one, after that the woman needs to take responsibility for HER body with the exception of rape.

I understand what you're saying but just want to clarify that I don't actually believe in free abortions for anyone with exceptions for a few things of course (rape, incest, mental illness, children, etc.)

 

[Bocefish]

Agreed, I'm pro choice 99% of the time, but when abortions are used as BC there should be some sort of significant deterrent for regulars that have one every couple of months.

 

[JickyJuly]

It's super depressing that women's rights are still debated. If men were the ones whose bodies went through hell to reproduce, birth control and abortion clinics would be easily accessible and private adoption would be much less tedious.

A father's rights come in when the baby can live without the help of its mother's organs. Period. This could potentially be devastating to a man who disagrees with the choices of a pregnant partner, but it's the only way it can be. So, it's important to really discuss what ifs with those you sex up. Also, keep in mind that no matter what a woman said she would do in a situation, when faced with the reality of pregnancy, things can change drastically.

Women deserve more credit for their ability to make choices. I don't think there could possibly be many girls who would use abortion as birth control. Physically and emotionally it's a traumatic event. I also don't picture many girls deciding halfway through to throw in the towel. Is that even an ELECTIVE possibility unless there is something really wrong with the baby or a danger to the mother? If so, I would be all for taking that particular right away. A fetus is considered viable for life if born after 24 weeks. A doctor couldn't possibly willingly remove a healthy baby from a healthy mother that far in?

 

[mynameisbob84]

For the record, I'm not saying that a woman should ever be forced to have a child she doesn't want. Just that the guy who knocked her up deserves to be heard out before she makes that decision.

 

[Bocefish]

I also don't picture many girls deciding halfway through to throw in the towel. Is that even an ELECTIVE possibility unless there is something really wrong with the baby or a danger to the mother? If so, I would be all for taking that particular right away. A fetus is considered viable for life if born after 24 weeks. A doctor couldn't possibly willingly remove a healthy baby from a healthy mother that far in?

Late term abortions vary by state and some states still allow 3rd trimester abortions. I would agree with a late term abortion ONLY if the mother would likely die giving birth for some reason. Babies can be delivered as small as one pound and still live normal lives.

The laws are weird... if a doctor successfully aborts a fetus that is 6 pounds, no problem according to some. Now if that baby is somehow delivered alive and the doctor then drowns the unwanted baby, it's legally considered murder. If a woman leaves an unwanted newborn at a church or fire department, no problem. However, if that baby dies of exposure or something before it's discovered, it's then legally murder. As long as the baby is inside the mother's womb, it's life basically has no rights until it's born. It's a very touchy subject.

 

[JickyJuly]

For the record, I'm not saying that a woman should ever be forced to have a child she doesn't want. Just that the guy who knocked her up deserves to be heard out before she makes that decision.

In an ideal world, both parents could safely weigh in. The problem with allowing a father to legally stop an abortion is that eventually a gaggle of douchebags will then rally for the ability to force abortion on an expectant woman.

 

[mynameisbob84]

For the record, I'm not saying that a woman should ever be forced to have a child she doesn't want. Just that the guy who knocked her up deserves to be heard out before she makes that decision.

In an ideal world, both parents could safely weigh in. The problem with allowing a father to legally stop an abortion is that eventually a gaggle of douchebags will then rally for the ability to force abortion on an expectant woman.

I think the bigger problem would be women getting illegal (and therefore unsafe) abortions if they were denied a legal one.

 

[Bocefish]

Another screwy thing I don't get is how a baby has rights to life if an OB/GYN screws up and accidentally causes the death of 4 month old in the womb and can be sued for millions, but a different doctor gets paid to end the life of another healthy 16 week old fetus legally. Somehow that doesn't quite compute in my feeble way of looking at things.

 

[Nordling]

Here's how I look at it. A fetus becomes a "person" when the Host, the future mother DECIDES it's a person. Until the developing fetus is actually born, this rule continues. Thus, if through negligence, a doctor ends the life of a developing fetus, then yes, the mom has every right to sue him for that negligence. But not just because of personhood, but because of the personal investment the mother has in her future child.

 

[Bocefish]

Sort of like legal deniability, I guess.

 

[Anonymous]

This video just makes me so happy.

 

[JickyJuly]

Sort of like legal deniability, I guess.

I think it's more of a patients' rights issue. Prior to an abortion, a woman has to sign waivers okaying the procedure and acknowledging whatever complications can arise from it. If something happens when nothing has been signed or okayed by the woman, damage to anything within her body (organ or fetus) would be worth a lawsuit. That sounds kind of tacky, but until it's running around on its own, the baby is kind of property of the mother and her body.
I think in most states (all?), assaulting or murdering an expectant woman carries extra penalties. As a slow moving knocked up target, I appreciate this. :lol:

 

[Bocefish]

I wonder if those extra penalties could still be enforced if the defense attorney discovered the expectant mother had an abortion appointment?

Hmmm... that could be a good movie script or Law and Order episode.

 

[AllisonWilder]

Here's how I look at it. A fetus becomes a "person" when the Host, the future mother DECIDES it's a person.

I completely agree with this. My fetus didn't become a baby to me until around 20 weeks gestation.

I wonder if those extra penalties could still be enforced if the defense attorney discovered the expectant mother had an abortion appointment?

Hmmm... that could be a good movie script or Law and Order episode.

I'm sure they could be because up until the actual abortion happens a woman could potentially change her mind 3282483 times. There's no saying that just because she had an appointment that she will go through with it.

 

[Bocefish]

Women change their minds?


:lol:

 

[Rose]

Women's rights is an interesting subject. Honestly, I've never really been in control of MY body up until about 2 years ago. Before that, my parents and my doctor dictated everything and nobody listened to what I wanted.

As a woman, I can understand not wanting anybody else to have a say so in what happens to my body. They aren't in my body and can't/don't feel what's happening to me so they shouldn't have any rights whatsoever in my choices. Especially if the person wanting to help make decisions with me was only 'part' of my body for a short amount of time (most likely less than an hour.) Why should they get a say so if they're not in my body and can't experience firsthand what's happening to me?

As a somewhat logical, adult human, I can understand being concerned over not having rights to a child you helped create. If I was a soon to be father who wanted children, I'd be concerned that I couldn't help out more/do something to help bring my offspring safely into the world and then care for them. The thought that at any moment the mother of said offspring could just take them away would be devastating. Even more so if she decided that those offspring wouldn't be brought into the world or that I wouldn't be able to ever see them/love them. It wouldn't feel fair that I had no say so in how my dna was being used (or not used).

 

[Just Me]

I just want to add here, I know of women that have abortions so regularly they might as well have a punch card at the clinic. I hope that I don't offend anyone here, but this kind of behavior is disgusting to me. One abortion would be all I needed to get my head on straight and figure out some sort of proper birth control methods (birth control of some sort and condoms are useful here) and a backup plan (the morning after pill can be taken up to 72 hours later and still prove effective).

Using abortions as birth control is deserving of abhorrence and scorn in my opinion. Women have access to a plethora of birth control measures, not to mention free condoms. Free abortions should be limited to one, after that the woman needs to take responsibility for HER body with the exception of rape.

I am not aware of any birth control methods, other than abstinence and permanent surgical methods, that are 100% effective. I do agree it is a bit crazy to use as your only method of birth control but I feel I have no say in what happens with a woman's body and a procedure that is legal for them.

 

[Just Me]

I found this very interesting from Freakanomics. Does it change the debate? Probably not depending on the reasons you are for or against abortion.

 

[Nordling]

On the surface, it sounds all well and good that both members of the "DNA Team" be given equal rights about what happens to the fetus. But a quick look tells us a few things, first, it's bad math. There's no tie breaker. If both partners have 1 vote, then if they disagree, they are deadlocked. And since only one of them is able to HOST the fetus, then she must get the only vote.

A lot of folks say, "but shouldn't they at least discuss it?" Sure, if they both agree to discussion--everyone loves a good discussion, right? But if the host has already made her mind up, and in the case where the sperm donor is "some guy I only saw once while we were both drunk," I'd say he's cut out of the decision-making. If it's a married couple, yeah, they SHOULD discuss it, as long as they're not estranged...and still, the final say should be from the host.

 

[Nordling]

I found this very interesting from Freakanomics. Does it change the debate? Probably not depending on the reasons you are for or against abortion.

[...]

I agree, it doesn't really change the debate, especially the "lower crime rate" theory. But it does bring up something they didn't mention in the video: why would we as a society want to force unwanted children onto people who would probably be bad parents?

So often I've heard anti-abortion folks argue that if a woman becomes pregnant she "made her own bed so now she should have to lie in it!" Very spiritual thought there, eh? Childbirth as punishment. No wonder they grow up to be criminals. :angry4:

 

[LadyLuna]

I am the child of a woman who was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. She was diagnosed shortly before my birth. She was also advised that having another child could make it spiral out of control. She decided to have me anyway.

I am good friends with a gentleman who accidentally fathered a fetus. The mother killed herself while still pregnant, the baby died with her. On the anniversary of the baby's death, and the anniversary of what would probably have been the baby's birthday, he gets really moody still, because he's always wanted to be a father. Even though he acknowledges that he was way too young at the time, and that he wasn't too fond of the mother, he still wishes he'd had the chance. I believe he would've done everything in his power to make sure that baby would've had a good life, if it had been allowed to live.

In college, I had a friend who was in an abusive relationship. Every time they had sex, it was basically rape. She got pregnant, wanted to keep it. The father, upon hearing she was pregnant, only said "so when is the abortion?" And then beat her when she said she didn't want one. She says "mother nature knew better", because she had a miscarriage.

This leaves me with mixed feelings about the abortion debate.

1. I do not believe that people who were raped, or mentally challenged (not mentally ill, mentally challenged, there's a difference), or who used every birth control method available and it just didn't work, should EVER be denied abortion. I also believe that if there is a good chance having the baby will kill the mother, she should be given the decision of if she wants it or not. If there is at least a 90% chance that trying to have the baby will kill the mother with no chance of life for the baby, then the baby should be aborted.

2. I think, until there is a way to take a fetus from the mother's womb, still alive, and have it grow elsewhere and be healthy (which I doubt will be invented in America, since I doubt the tests required would ever be approved. I think it would be good to test it with babies that are supposed to be aborted, cause then you haven't really lost anything if it fails...)... well, the men shouldn't really be able to force the woman to have the child.

3. I think anyone who has more than 1 abortion a year needs to get a psych evaluation.

EDIT: Holy shit, anyone wanting to skip this vid because of all the abortion talk in the thread- DON'T. this is not about abortion only. They cover breast cancer, rape, and other such important things.

 

[Nordling]

Exactly. The video is about freedom...the right to control of your own body. Abortion is just one facet of this.

I think that no matter how we feel about the morality of abortion of any sort, it's really none of our business and definitely not the business of the government.

Now.

If someone DECIDES to let the pregnancy run to term (giving the fetus personhood), but then does things that harms the fetus, THEN, and only then should the law step in. And even that should be rational. Having a small glass of wine with dinner does not harm a fetus. Going on a bender does.

 

[LadyLuna]

Exactly. The video is about freedom...the right to control of your own body. Abortion is just one facet of this.

I think that no matter how we feel about the morality of abortion of any sort, it's really none of our business and definitely not the business of the government.

Now.

If someone DECIDES to let the pregnancy run to term (giving the fetus personhood), but then does things that harms the fetus, THEN, and only then should the law step in. And even that should be rational. Having a small glass of wine with dinner does not harm a fetus. Going on a bender does.

GOD I hate the "you can't have ___" list WIC gives. Some of those things are completely ridiculous!