What are the risks?

[Rose]

Just thought I'd share this here. I know several people who have had lasting, adverse reactions to the flu shot and am related to two young boys who didn't develop autism until after they received their 2 year booster vaccines. It's important to educate yourself before you allow yourself or any minors in your care to just get any shot that the doctor pushes on you.
http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/insight-evidence-grows-for-narcolepsy-link-to-gsk-swine-flu-shot

 

[RoseCavilla]

I feel like everyone makes way too big a deal over the flu shot. I think that for the sake of herd immunity it is important to receive it. I believe more in coincidence then in the vaccine being the cause of autism and other diseases. I blame celebrities and air headed cheerleaders for all of the hype.

Regardless, no one should be forced to receive it. One nurse was fired because it was against her religion to receive a shot. http://news.yahoo.com/nurses-fired-refu ... ealth.html

 

[Rose]

I'm not suggesting that everyone should suddenly stop getting all shots and vaccines, just that it's important to know the risks on both sides and make as educated a decision as you can.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

I'm not suggesting that everyone should suddenly stop getting all shots and vaccines, just that it's important to know the risks on both sides and make as educated a decision as you can.

That makes sense. The link you posted appears to be broken however .

 

[Nordling]

I feel like everyone makes way too big a deal over the flu shot. I think that for the sake of herd immunity it is important to receive it. I believe more in coincidence then in the vaccine being the cause of autism and other diseases. I blame celebrities and air headed cheerleaders for all of the hype.

Regardless, no one should be forced to receive it. One nurse was fired because it was against her religion to receive a shot. http://news.yahoo.com/nurses-fired-refu ... ealth.html

But the story doesn't specify what religion she follows that allows her to be a nurse, and all that entails (transfusions, surgery, etc) but proscribes flu shots. Nurses and other medical workers are special cases of what they should or shouldn't be forced to do. Influenza kills people, and one exception could spread it throughout a hospital or clinic. What if her "religion" proscribed washing her hands? It becomes absurd.

 

[PlayboyMegan]

I feel like everyone makes way too big a deal over the flu shot. I think that for the sake of herd immunity it is important to receive it. I believe more in coincidence then in the vaccine being the cause of autism and other diseases. I blame celebrities and air headed cheerleaders for all of the hype.

Regardless, no one should be forced to receive it. One nurse was fired because it was against her religion to receive a shot. http://news.yahoo.com/nurses-fired-refu ... ealth.html

It's against your religion to receive shots...so you become a nurse? There isn't a thousand of other jobs she could have went for that didn't involve needles? Oh the irony!

 

[Shaun__]

I feel like everyone makes way too big a deal over the flu shot. I think that for the sake of herd immunity it is important to receive it. I believe more in coincidence then in the vaccine being the cause of autism and other diseases. I blame celebrities and air headed cheerleaders for all of the hype.

Regardless, no one should be forced to receive it. One nurse was fired because it was against her religion to receive a shot. http://news.yahoo.com/nurses-fired-refu ... ealth.html

If you are in the medical profession working with people likely to die if they get the flu you should get a new job if you are unable to get vaccinated to protect them. You choose to be there, but they are there by necessity and have no choice.

 

[RoseCavilla]

Nurses not washing their hands is a much bigger problem and leads to more hospital acquired illnesses then nurses not getting a flu shot. Mrsa and vrsa claim more lives each year than any flu virus. How many immunocompromised patients do you hear are dying from influenza as opposed to other communicable illnesses?

Besides, if you work in a hospital and get vaccinated, it's not guaranteed that you won't transfer a virus from one patient to another.

No religion would forbid hand washing but even if they did, that's a slippery slope argument. Intentionly breaking the skin with a foreign object is very different from running your hands under water. Religion aside, everyone should have a choice to be vaccinated or not. There's well developed arguments for either side as to the effectiveness of the vaccine. It just depends on your sources.

As for this woman in particular, she had been a nurse for DECADES, it's not like she went into this job knowing her religious beliefs would result in her job's termination one day. The vaccine isn't even as effective in patients over 65, showing a preventative rate as low as 30 percent and as high as 70 percent. So what would be the point in forcing this woman to receive the vaccination if there is no guarantee that she wouldn't get sick or transfer the virus.

Personally I don't feel one way or the other about the vaccine. But there's enough evidence against it that no organization should mandate it. Google Guillain Barre syndrome for starters. It's been associated with a season of flu vaccines in the 1970s. It's relation wasn't noted for decades after, and once it was, it took even longer to appear in peer reviewed journals. There's a lot we can't know, yeesh haven't you guys ever seen I Am Legend? Zombie people aside, something similar could happen.

So no, nurses shouldn't be required to get the vaccine.

 

[Rose]

I'm not suggesting that everyone should suddenly stop getting all shots and vaccines, just that it's important to know the risks on both sides and make as educated a decision as you can.

That makes sense. The link you posted appears to be broken however .

Hmm, the link is working on my end. It was posted on the yahoo news homepage earlier today. See if it works this time.

http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/insight-evidence-grows-for-narcolepsy-link-to-gsk-swine-flu-shot
And just to be safe, here it is unlinked:

http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/insight-evidence-grows-for-narcolepsy-link-to-gsk-swine-flu-shot

 

[Nordling]

"Enough evidence" is a slippery slope in itself. When it comes to medical research, quantity does not balance quality. A study at a university by scientists is not trumped by an article by Jenny McCarthy, e.g.

I still want to know what the nurse in question's religion is. I suspect she made it up.

 

[Shaun__]

Nurses not washing their hands is a much bigger problem and leads to more hospital acquired illnesses then nurses not getting a flu shot. Mrsa and vrsa claim more lives each year than any flu virus. How many immunocompromised patients do you hear are dying from influenza as opposed to other communicable illnesses?

Besides, if you work in a hospital and get vaccinated, it's not guaranteed that you won't transfer a virus from one patient to another.

No religion would forbid hand washing but even if they did, that's a slippery slope argument. Intentionly breaking the skin with a foreign object is very different from running your hands under water. Religion aside, everyone should have a choice to be vaccinated or not. There's well developed arguments for either side as to the effectiveness of the vaccine. It just depends on your sources.

As for this woman in particular, she had been a nurse for DECADES, it's not like she went into this job knowing her religious beliefs would result in her job's termination one day. The vaccine isn't even as effective in patients over 65, showing a preventative rate as low as 30 percent and as high as 70 percent. So what would be the point in forcing this woman to receive the vaccination if there is no guarantee that she wouldn't get sick or transfer the virus.

Personally I don't feel one way or the other about the vaccine. But there's enough evidence against it that no organization should mandate it. Google Guillain Barre syndrome for starters. It's been associated with a season of flu vaccines in the 1970s. It's relation wasn't noted for decades after, and once it was, it took even longer to appear in peer reviewed journals. There's a lot we can't know, yeesh haven't you guys ever seen I Am Legend? Zombie people aside, something similar could happen.

So no, nurses shouldn't be required to get the vaccine.

I would expect medical professionals to wash their hands, wear gloves,and get vaccinated. Also she was in no way forced to get vaccinated, she was given a choice and chose not to get it.

 

[RoseCavilla]

"Enough evidence" is a slippery slope in itself. When it comes to medical research, quantity does not balance quality. A study at a university by scientists is not trumped by an article by Jenny McCarthy, e.g.

I still want to know what the nurse in question's religion is. I suspect she made it up.

Maybe she's a Jehovah's witness? I know they're against blood transfusions, I worked with a woman who was a witness and she chose death over violating her beliefs.

But let's say she did make it up. Maybe she just doesn't like needles or is apprehensive of unknown repercussions. Why make her get it? It's NOT guaranteeing anyone's safety. So what justification is there to revoke her right to reject any medical treatment, let alone something that isn't necessary?

Shaun, why would you want her to get vaccinated? And this was her job for years, she was forced to choose between a job she'd devoted most of her life to and breaking her vows.

 

[LuckySmiles]

So no, nurses shouldn't be required to get the vaccine.

Yes they should. I never want have to get a flu shot ever. I do strongly believe there are real chances it causes harm in people the same as many aspects of medicine that work for some people,but can kill others. Just because it's science doesn't mean it's incapable of human error.
A flu shot is a mandatory part of a nurses job, so if you want to keep your job, you have to get the shot. There's plenty of health risks as a nurse that you take, are you going to not help the bloody car accident victim coming into the ER because there's a tiny risk you can get AIDS? That would be absurd. Because it's your job to help that person, and it's a job where you put the health of patients first. Of course there are precautions always taken, but no matter what there are always risks involving disease. A hospital has to create the safest possible environment for it's patients. The employees have rights but are ultimately responsible to comply with the hospitals policy in order to keep their job. Same as any other job. There's a million other jobs that don't require flu shots, and if that's that big a concern, don't take a job that does. As I said I never want to get a flu shot ever, but if I became a nurse, I would suck it up and understand.

 

[Shaun__]

Shaun, why would you want her to get vaccinated? And this was her job for years, she was forced to choose between a job she'd devoted most of her life to and breaking her vows.

She is around at risk patients and they are what she is supposed to care about. If their lives and safety are unimportant to her she has no reason being a nurse.

 

[RoseCavilla]

Why fire her for not getting the vaccine though?

Nurses fail to wash their hands all the time and even when they're caught they're not fired, simply given a slap on the wrist.

Hand washing is much more important then a vaccine. Like I briefly mentioned a few posts ago, you can get the vaccine but if you go from one patient who has the flu to the next patient even hand washing may not get rid of all the viruses on your skin, and what about the possibility of a sneeze transferring live viruses onto your scrubs? Vaccine or not, that's still just as lethal to a patient who is sensitive to opportunistic infections.

 

[Shaun__]

Why fire her for not getting the vaccine though?

Nurses fail to wash their hands all the time and even when they're caught they're not fired, simply given a slap on the wrist.

Hand washing is much more important then a vaccine. Like I briefly mentioned a few posts ago, you can get the vaccine but if you go from one patient who has the flu to the next patient even hand washing may not get rid of all the viruses on your skin, and what about the possibility of a sneeze transferring live viruses onto your scrubs? Vaccine or not, that's still just as lethal to a patient who is sensitive to opportunistic infections.

Again I will repeat she is around at risk patients, and they are what matters. She can get a new job, but they can not get a new life. Also I already said medical professionals should wash their hands and wear gloves.

 

[Nordling]

"Enough evidence" is a slippery slope in itself. When it comes to medical research, quantity does not balance quality. A study at a university by scientists is not trumped by an article by Jenny McCarthy, e.g.

I still want to know what the nurse in question's religion is. I suspect she made it up.

Maybe she's a Jehovah's witness? I know they're against blood transfusions, I worked with a woman who was a witness and she chose death over violating her beliefs.

But let's say she did make it up. Maybe she just doesn't like needles or is apprehensive of unknown repercussions. Why make her get it? It's NOT guaranteeing anyone's safety. So what justification is there to revoke her right to reject any medical treatment, let alone something that isn't necessary?

Shaun, why would you want her to get vaccinated? And this was her job for years, she was forced to choose between a job she'd devoted most of her life to and breaking her vows.

No, if she were a Jehovah's Witness, she'd not be a nurse. This sounds like a religion that is fine with everything EXCEPT vaccine. I know of NO such religion. She made it up.

 

[southsamurai]

uh-oh! im about to open a can of worms here, buuuuuut.

i worked 20 years in nursing. at no time during that period was flu vaccine mandatory. it was usually offered free to those of us doing patient care. out of the 10 times i chose to get it i got sick every single time. not an allergic reaction, but the full on flu. as in out of work for 2 weeks or so flu. so i stopped getting it. havent had the flu since. weird no? maybe im unique, maybe my area just had time for the virus in the population to mutate beyond the vaccine, i dont know for sure.

what i do know is that from a realistic standpoint if you have the flu, you arent going to be working. if you show up to a hospital or nursing facility with the sniffles even, you dont work with patients. ive never met a nursing director that allows it. and no, you cant hide the flu with palliative meds. or at least not without a enough of them that you arent going to be able to do anything useful anyway. making it mandatory is a dumb and useless idea. for one theres a percentage of recipients that do have adverse reactions. secondly no vaccine is 100% effective. the variables of indiviual immune systems mean that they just dont work for everyone every time. and lastly, having a virus injected into your system is invasive and risky, so individual choice must have a place in the decision. umm hello? informed consent? at the moment a person i given the injection they cease to be a nurse, and become a patient. every patient has the right to refuse any treatment.

of course, too often a large group of panicky, stupid herd mentality people will do something truly moronic like force a vaccine on a smaller amount of people, and really, theres nothing that can stop it from happening. im just glad im out of things if its gone there

 

[Rose]

uh-oh! im about to open a can of worms here, buuuuuut.

i worked 20 years in nursing. at no time during that period was flu vaccine mandatory. it was usually offered free to those of us doing patient care. out of the 10 times i chose to get it i got sick every single time. not an allergic reaction, but the full on flu. as in out of work for 2 weeks or so flu. so i stopped getting it. havent had the flu since. weird no? maybe im unique, maybe my area just had time for the virus in the population to mutate beyond the vaccine, i dont know for sure.

This has been the case for my father and two siblings as well. Every year they've gotten the flu vaccine, they've gotten incredibly ill to the point of needing either emergency attention or antibiotics. My mother and I have never had the flu vaccine or the flu; we may get a bad case of the sniffles once every other year or so but that's because it's triggered by our allergies getting out of control.

 

[Nordling]

No medical procedures are 100% effective, just like there's no disease that causes symptoms in everyone. Anecdotes are really not scientific, and I don't think that concern for patient safety is "herd mentality."

You can spread influenza virus BEFORE the onset of symptoms.

Certainly, if every flu shot GIVES you the flu, you should be able to demonstrate this and not be forced to get the shot, but from the story, this has nothing to do with the nurse's reasoning.

 

[RoseCavilla]

uh-oh! im about to open a can of worms here, buuuuuut.

i worked 20 years in nursing. at no time during that period was flu vaccine mandatory. it was usually offered free to those of us doing patient care. out of the 10 times i chose to get it i got sick every single time. not an allergic reaction, but the full on flu. as in out of work for 2 weeks or so flu. so i stopped getting it. havent had the flu since. weird no? maybe im unique, maybe my area just had time for the virus in the population to mutate beyond the vaccine, i dont know for sure.

what i do know is that from a realistic standpoint if you have the flu, you arent going to be working. if you show up to a hospital or nursing facility with the sniffles even, you dont work with patients. ive never met a nursing director that allows it. and no, you cant hide the flu with palliative meds. or at least not without a enough of them that you arent going to be able to do anything useful anyway. making it mandatory is a dumb and useless idea. for one theres a percentage of recipients that do have adverse reactions. secondly no vaccine is 100% effective. the variables of indiviual immune systems mean that they just dont work for everyone every time. and lastly, having a virus injected into your system is invasive and risky, so individual choice must have a place in the decision. umm hello? informed consent? at the moment a person i given the injection they cease to be a nurse, and become a patient. every patient has the right to refuse any treatment.

of course, too often a large group of panicky, stupid herd mentality people will do something truly moronic like force a vaccine on a smaller amount of people, and really, theres nothing that can stop it from happening. im just glad im out of things if its gone there

Yes, thank you!! I'm working at a hospital now and haven't been here nearly as long as you, but they don't mandate it. It'd be stupid, it doesn't offer any guaranteed protection and, like you noted, it can make you sick anyway. It should be a choice, not a mandate.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

what i do know is that from a realistic standpoint if you have the flu, you arent going to be working. if you show up to a hospital or nursing facility with the sniffles even, you dont work with patients. ive never met a nursing director that allows it. and no, you cant hide the flu with palliative meds. or at least not without a enough of them that you arent going to be able to do anything useful anyway. making it mandatory is a dumb and useless idea. for one theres a percentage of recipients that do have adverse reactions. secondly no vaccine is 100% effective. the variables of indiviual immune systems mean that they just dont work for everyone every time. and lastly, having a virus injected into your system is invasive and risky, so individual choice must have a place in the decision. umm hello? informed consent? at the moment a person i given the injection they cease to be a nurse, and become a patient. every patient has the right to refuse any treatment.

of course, too often a large group of panicky, stupid herd mentality people will do something truly moronic like force a vaccine on a smaller amount of people, and really, theres nothing that can stop it from happening. im just glad im out of things if its gone there

Yes, thank you!! I'm working at a hospital now and haven't been here nearly as long as you, but they don't mandate it. It'd be stupid, it doesn't offer any guaranteed protection and, like you noted, it can make you sick anyway. It should be a choice, not a mandate.

Samurai raises good points. I also have gotten sick after the two times I had flu shots. This year I refused based on previous experience, before we knew had bad the flu season was, luckily Hawaii is one of two states which has not been badly hit by the flu. No vaccines aren't 100% effective and the flu vaccines is even less effective than most others so the case for taking a flu vaccine is less than other diseases.

On the other hand we need to give the hospital some credit they didn't just wake up and say, "gee it would be good PR if we told all of our staff they had to get mandatory flu shots".

The recommendation comes from organizations that do good science like the Center for Disease Control, AMA, and the American Nurses Association and similar organizations. I am hard pressed to see why these organization would advocating mandatory vaccines unless there was good science show that doing so save lives. The unemployment rate for nurses is very low, if a nurse strongly objects to get a vaccine there are other places to work.

 

[VeronicaChaos]

"Enough evidence" is a slippery slope in itself. When it comes to medical research, quantity does not balance quality. A study at a university by scientists is not trumped by an article by Jenny McCarthy, e.g.

I still want to know what the nurse in question's religion is. I suspect she made it up.

But I thought all religions were made up? :whistle:

*Backs out of thread slowly*

Anyway, we don't know what causes Autism yet. We have no idea if it's genetic (though I am partial in believing that it is and that I got it from my father, but that's just a hunch) or what. I know that they're trying to figure out what causes it, but until they do, everything is a shot in the dark.

 

[Nordling]

"Enough evidence" is a slippery slope in itself. When it comes to medical research, quantity does not balance quality. A study at a university by scientists is not trumped by an article by Jenny McCarthy, e.g.

I still want to know what the nurse in question's religion is. I suspect she made it up.

But I thought all religions were made up? :whistle:

*Backs out of thread slowly*

:lol: Touché! True, true.

 

[VeronicaChaos]

"Enough evidence" is a slippery slope in itself. When it comes to medical research, quantity does not balance quality. A study at a university by scientists is not trumped by an article by Jenny McCarthy, e.g.

I still want to know what the nurse in question's religion is. I suspect she made it up.

But I thought all religions were made up? :whistle:

*Backs out of thread slowly*

:lol: Touché! True, true.

Curses! You quoted me before I got to edit! NOW EVERYONE KNOWS. :violin:

 

[Just Me]

Just thought I'd share this here. I know several people who have had lasting, adverse reactions to the flu shot and am related to two young boys who didn't develop autism until after they received their 2 year booster vaccines. It's important to educate yourself before you allow yourself or any minors in your care to just get any shot that the doctor pushes on you.
http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/insight-evidence-grows-for-narcolepsy-link-to-gsk-swine-flu-shot

This was not given to anyone in the US and not available in the US. This was from immunizations given in 2009. It was given to 30 million people and there were 795 people reporting narcolepsy. That means a .00265% chance of narcolepsy, if those cases can be directly attributed to the immunization.

 

[Red7227]

I feel like everyone makes way too big a deal over the flu shot. I think that for the sake of herd immunity it is important to receive it. I believe more in coincidence then in the vaccine being the cause of autism and other diseases. I blame celebrities and air headed cheerleaders for all of the hype.

Regardless, no one should be forced to receive it. One nurse was fired because it was against her religion to receive a shot. http://news.yahoo.com/nurses-fired-refu ... ealth.html

It's against your religion to receive shots...so you become a nurse? There isn't a thousand of other jobs she could have went for that didn't involve needles? Oh the irony!

"This is my body. I have a right to refuse the flu vaccine," Hoover, 61, told ABCNews.com. "For 21 years, I have religiously not taken the flu vaccine, and now you're telling me that I believe in it."

:whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

 

[Rose]

This was not given to anyone in the US and not available in the US. This was from immunizations given in 2009. It was given to 30 million people and there were 795 people reporting narcolepsy. That means a .00265% chance of narcolepsy, if those cases can be directly attributed to the immunization.

I'm aware of that because I can read. If you had read my post then you'd know that I'm suggesting people know the risks ON BOTH SIDES. I did not say everybody should stop getting vaccines or shots, simply that it's important to know what you're putting into your body before you do it.

Next time please actually read my post before making a flippant statement about something obvious.

 

[Lintilla]

I just got my flu shot today, and I'm glad I did. A little late, because it takes a couple weeks to work and the flu is currently widespread throughout the country (actually past its peak?), but hopefully I can avoid it until then. I've gotten the flu practically every year of my life that I didn't get a shot, and at the moment I rely on public transportation... The shot 60-something percent effective this year, I heard. If it can cut my chances that much, I'm happy. When I get hit I get hit hard, and it seems nasty this year.

The bit about autism in the OP is getting more or less ignored, but I wanted to point out that vaccines DO NOT cause autism. There is absolutely no evidence for it. NONE. The two have gotten linked because autism often becomes apparent around the same time a set of vaccines may be given (easy enough -- infants can get vaccines every few months in their first two years), but it's nothing but a coincidence. I really wish the people scaremongering about this kind of thing would cut it out before even more kids in this country die of pertussis (somebody mentioned Jenny McCarthy in here... she makes my blood boil). I got my Tdap booster two years ago, and anyone reading this who doesn't know if they're up to date on their vaccinations should remember to ask their doctor. I yell at all of my friends about it...

 

[Just Me]

This was not given to anyone in the US and not available in the US. This was from immunizations given in 2009. It was given to 30 million people and there were 795 people reporting narcolepsy. That means a .00265% chance of narcolepsy, if those cases can be directly attributed to the immunization.

I'm aware of that because I can read. If you had read my post then you'd know that I'm suggesting people know the risks ON BOTH SIDES. I did not say everybody should stop getting vaccines or shots, simply that it's important to know what you're putting into your body before you do it.

Next time please actually read my post before making a flippant statement about something obvious.

I did read your post. The question is why you posted that link. You think it is a risk, which is what I got from your post and your thread title. I pointed out that it was not a risk to anyone in the US because some people do not read the entire article. I did the math because I wanted to know the percentage.