Want $15 an hour minimum wage? You're fired.

[JerryBoBerry]

This post I made before was brought back to mind when I walked into my small town McDonald's this week. With a small minimum wage increase in my state this year and the threat of $15 an hour being fought for, my local store remodeled. Went in and saw a couple of these waiting for me.



Most of the cashiers have been fired now. They have a couple during the busy meal times and one worker can do the register at other times for people that want to pay with cash. But most are now gone. Europe already has 7000 of them installed. And if they are in my small town I'm betting people are seeing them elsewhere across America now too.

Something tells me long before a minimum wage of $15/hr ever gets approved McDonald's will be firing the rest of their employees as well. Turns out they don't need them. They've already got one store in Phoenix run pretty much by robots. Humans are just there to refill supplies and empty cash drawers.
http://newsexaminer.net/food/mcdonalds-to-open-restaurant-run-by-robots/

 

[LioraVox]

This is the thing I dislike so much about big corporations. I can't even imagine being that filled with greed. Like instead of increasing what the people that bring me my checks earn for bringing me those checks. I replace them. Like...instead of making the people that work for you happier, and less stressed. Some of which probably have given you years of their life-instead of paying them a couple more dollars when you're a what billion dollar company. You replace them with machines.

And people are going to be like ohh so innovative. And it's not innovative (it is..) but also its complete shit.

 

[RosalieDay]

I really wonder how this will decrease prices or maybe I'm in my own little world of thinking. Rather than paying humans a decent wage, would it be lower than the maintenance, upgrading/future advancements, research, programming, assembling, powering, etc. of these McRobots? Their other reasoning is the robots don't have poor hygiene, lack of education, and don't ask for cigarette breaks, etc.. I think there's a large gap of empathy.

 

[AshleyNicole_]

This is the thing I dislike so much about big corporations. I can't even imagine being that filled with greed. Like instead of increasing what the people that bring me my checks earn for bringing me those checks. I replace them. Like...instead of making the people that work for you happier, and less stressed. Some of which probably have given you years of their life-instead of paying them a couple more dollars when you're a what billion dollar company. You replace them with machines.

And people are going to be like ohh so innovative. And it's not innovative (it is..) but also its complete shit.

You have to keep in mind that many "big" name places may actually be owned and operated by local people. My dad owned a chain restaurant. He didn't make any money from it and eventually went out of business because of minimum wage increases and health care requirements. As a franchise or sub franchisee, the businesses are locally owned and operated, but basically pay a fee to use the name. The McDonalds that those machines are in may be in there out of necessity to keep the doors open.

 

[dilligaf0]

There won't be a decrease in prices, just an increase in profits.

 

[Gen]

I read about a comic shop in San Francisco where wages were increased and they were worried about how they'd pay their employees. So they came up with some sort of subscription box for $20 and basically posted online saying "our goal is X subscribers, we appreciate it if you want to participate!" As far as I know, they hit their goal because people like their business and supporting small businesses, so they could keep their staff and not suffer from the wage increases. I thought it was cool that they came up with a way to increase business rather than cut staff, and that they were so open about it with their customers in a positive way.

They're talking about a $15 an hour minimum wage in Alberta now and there have been petitions started by the Canadian Federation of Independent Businesses. It's interesting because I understand where they're coming from and they make some good points (such as, raising the limit of tax exempt income so minimum wage workers take home more money without burdening the business) but it's hard to discuss paying your employees less than a living wage without sounding greedy or heartless. Often it seems framed as a threat, like "well you can have $15 but we will cut your hours and benefits and there will be layoffs". That's why I liked the comic shop's idea a lot. It's positive and worked well for the owners and the staff.

 

[Jesse0328]

When self checkout kiosks started showing up at grocery stores and Walmarts over a decade ago, people were predicting that these evil corporations were going to fire all the cashiers and replace them with self checkout computers. It's 2015 now, and obviously that hasn't happened.

I kind of like the idea of automated ordering kiosks at quick service restaurants. I imagine that they improve ordering accuracy, and you can improve ordering efficiency by always being able to have multiple ordering points open. I'm sure at one time or another we've all been at a fast food restaurant with one cashier and stuck in line behind a party of 8 who don't know what they want. Plus, I can stare at the menu for 15 minutes without a cashier standing there waiting for me to make a decision.

 

[MrShepard]

We had a few Carl's Jr (Hardees east of the Rockies) try to use robot cashiers. It was so confusing and annoying because you had to press a lot of buttons to customize your order. Example: you want a burger; but you don't want onions or ketchup, you want extra pickles, and you want it low carb with lettuce on the outside. In the time it would take me to order it with those exact words, I'm probably still being prompted to press how much ketchup I want on my burger.

And if you wanna use a coupon with no bar code? Well good luck getting someone behind the counters' attention long enough to get them to put in the codes to get your dollar off.

At least self-checkout at grocery stores makes sense because of all the bar codes and they have at least 1 person there to help people at checkout. But even if burger places use robo-cashiers more often, they still have to pay for that upkeep, and staff people to support them, and the electricity to power them.

I don't see McBots completely replacing employees, but I do think they'd be good as an 'express lane.' Want to order a #5? Boom. Here you go. Got a complicated order and need help ordering? Then use the normal line.

 

[KatVonnegut]

Aw man. Has anyone read Player Piano? It's basically this whole premise. Machine replaces human workforce. Humans lose lust for life. Ect.
If we're gonna have a robocentric society can we have them at least do all the dangerous and deadly jobs that get given to small children in third world countries? Naw but that's not business savvy innit

 

[LioraVox]

You have to keep in mind that many "big" name places may actually be owned and operated by local people. My dad owned a chain restaurant. He didn't make any money from it and eventually went out of business because of minimum wage increases and health care requirements. As a franchise or sub franchisee, the businesses are locally owned and operated, but basically pay a fee to use the name. The McDonalds that those machines are in may be in there out of necessity to keep the doors open.

I completely understand that, but even when businesses are locally owned they are following the corps rules and regulations. If the corps decided to pay their employees a living wage (not even an exact $15) then the locally owned locations would have to follow. Period because then it's a rule. Corps don't give a damn about business owners or the employees of those businesses because want they want is money, and to increase the longevity of their company to continue to make money.

It's one thing if a franchisee decided that they were going to pay their employees this, but then couldn't afford to once they checked the numbers, and another for a corporation to invest in machines to take orders and decide to put those into their various locations across the world which takes jobs away from people completely.

It's one thing to say "I can't afford to pay this." and "I refuse to pay this." And that's what this boils down to, because these franchisees aren't investing and installing the McBots- the corporation is.

 

[AshleyNicole_]

I completely understand that, but even when businesses are locally owned they are following the corps rules and regulations. If the corps decided to pay their employees a living wage (not even an exact $15) then the locally owned locations would have to follow. Period because then it's a rule. Corps don't give a damn about business owners or the employees of those businesses because want they want is money, and to increase the longevity of their company to continue to make money.

It's one thing if a franchisee decided that they were going to pay their employees this, but then couldn't afford to once they checked the numbers, and another for a corporation to invest in machines to take orders and decide to put those into their various locations across the world which takes jobs away from people completely.

It's one thing to say "I can't afford to pay this." and "I refuse to pay this." And that's what this boils down to, because these franchisees aren't investing and installing the McBots- the corporation is.

That's actually false. If a franchisee wants to install something like this, the corporation doesn't just give it to them. They have to buy it and install it themselves. Other than product development and a name, chains don't do much else for franchisees.

Would you rather the business install these machines to keep their doors open and continue to employ some people or not install the machines and have to close the doors completely leaving all their employees without a job?

What ever happened to people actually earning and working for their wage vs feeling entitled to a high wage out the gate. As a hard working employee, I remember when minimum wage was increased in my state and it brought employees who were terrible employees up to a wage of people who actually worked hard to earn their money. Productivity fell among those hard working people because why should they continue to work as hard as they did to get paid the same amount or close to it as someone who didn't earn it.

Corporations are greedy. That's their job to make as much money as they can. They, however, do not pay employees. If corporate McDonald's enacted a standard minimum wage in their corporate owned restaurants and tried to force franchisees to pay that same amount, once again, it puts that franchisee out of business.

 

[Gen]

If you won't work hard because other people are getting paid a decent wage, that's on you. It's like people who complain tuition shouldn't be lowered because they had to pay a lot for school. If they decided to eliminate tuition the year after I graduated, I'd be pissed I missed it but glad that future students didn't have to go into massive debt to do the exact thing they're taught is supposed to get them out of minimum wage jobs. Likewise I want minimum wage to be decent enough that people actually have a shot at getting an education if they want, or at least to be able to live above poverty. I don't care that I ~worked so hard~ for my annual fifty cent raises. People who slack off get ahead all the time, pretty much anyone who's ever had a job has stories about shitty managers who do nothing. Minimum wage isn't meant to correlate with performance anyway, and frankly if companies want good employees, they should pay them decently.

 

[Snowie1969]

People who slack off get ahead all the time, pretty much anyone who's ever had a job has stories about shitty managers who do nothing. Minimum wage isn't meant to correlate with performance anyway, and frankly if companies want good employees, they should pay them decently.

Just fire the slackers first.. if you dare as they usually are the popular guys/ gals in the work force..

Someone said that making profit is the most important part of having a business. What is not important is having too many employeés.. I'd rather have a few and pay them well and select them well than have a lot working at almost slavery like levels of payment. China is now finding out why it was unwise not to invest in the wages of it's employeés as it's economy is now grinding to a halt because we already have everything and the rest of the world isn't rich enough yet.

 

[Teagan]

That's actually false. If a franchisee wants to install something like this, the corporation doesn't just give it to them. They have to buy it and install it themselves. Other than product development and a name, chains don't do much else for franchisees.

This is so true. Just a few years ago Dairy Queen corp went out and made a declaration that ALL dairy queens would either have to be a brazier or an orange julius. The franchises were expected to foot the bill on the changes on their own or close up shop. (The minimum cost was about $200k estimate I believe.) Many in my area either did not have the money to expand or the space for either. One of the DQs here was a small wooden shack basically that only opened in summer time and had no room for a bathroom let alone deep fryers or counter space for juicers or the money to by expensive corporate approved machines. Yet DQ corp didnt give a shit about any of them. Several closed here as they could not afford the changes or afford the move to a bigger location. The franchises across the country spoke out and loudly about the requirements being dumped on them and how for many it was impossible and how this happens all the time. Orders from corporate just come down and are unrealistic for small family owned shops constantly. (Anyone remember the fights over McDonalds requiring lattes and cappuccinos across the board?) And it's part of the contracts you sign that say you have to keep up or else too and that includes ridiculous things like remodeling you dont need and such. The outcome was businesses closing and people losing jobs and that helps no one but the corporation as it's still getting the boost from the places that could afford the changes. (DQ did get sued btw for all this across the country but of course franchises have lil leg to stand on and lose.)

 

[TacoBelle]

If you won't work hard because other people are getting paid a decent wage, that's on you. It's like people who complain tuition shouldn't be lowered because they had to pay a lot for school. If they decided to eliminate tuition the year after I graduated, I'd be pissed I missed it but glad that future students didn't have to go into massive debt to do the exact thing they're taught is supposed to get them out of minimum wage jobs. Likewise I want minimum wage to be decent enough that people actually have a shot at getting an education if they want, or at least to be able to live above poverty. I don't care that I ~worked so hard~ for my annual fifty cent raises. People who slack off get ahead all the time, pretty much anyone who's ever had a job has stories about shitty managers who do nothing. Minimum wage isn't meant to correlate with performance anyway, and frankly if companies want good employees, they should pay them decently.

Gen, I don't think AshleyNicole was saying that she approved of people slacking just because of other people getting raises, just that it was prevalent and kinda makes sense. Everywhere I've ever worked (customer service worker for life, yo), I've started out at min wage. I've had to work my ass off to get those piddly raises (like $.30/year) and could still not afford to live alone. It's just not possible without accruing a large amount of debt. So I completely understand the need for the raise in min wage. However, there have been two times that I remember min wage being raised. This resulted in people just getting hired in and the slackers who did the bare minimum making the same as me, after I'd been there busting ass for 2 years. Of course, they didn't give anyone else a raise, so it makes all of the hard workers feel shitty. They've worked so long and so hard to only be rewarded by getting shit on. We were expected to still go above and beyond (like we'd proven to do beforehand) and make the same as the new girl who spends the whole day texting and slacking. It's disheartening, and no one will continue to work like that.

I think that anytime min wage gets raised, places that primarily hire people around that rate should have to increase ALL of the workers' wages. Or be required to give evaluations right then so that the veteran workers have a chance to make more. Cause no one is gonna keep bending over backwards if they aren't being supported/appreciated.

 

[Gen]

I agree that other wages should be raised in accordance with that - in my experience most retail supervisors don't make $15 an hour, and with added responsibility there should be added pay. Totally!

But I still don't get begrudging someone else a decent wage because it took you longer to get there. I totally feel that $0.50 a year raise frustration (though in my experience that was usually tied to how long you'd been there rather than actual hard work, like everyone would get a raise after a year or whatever), but I think it's a bit of a distraction to focus on "but I've worked so long and had to earn this $12", as opposed to "this is legit unlivable, I'm glad we're all gonna be doing a little better". In my opinion you'll probably always get slackers when you're paying the minimum, whether it's $6 or $10 or $15 or $100 an hour.

To me, in retail/food jobs (I am also a customer service life, haha), your wage usually doesn't correlate to your skill/hard work. Loads of people get promoted in those jobs either for longevity or whatever other reason, while tons of the minimum wage earners work way harder. That's just been my experience but I think it's a folly to correlate earnings with work in that sense. I do see where you guys are coming from, though!

 

[AshleyNicole_]

I was speaking from what I observed from a management stand point. I ran a restaurant with 50-60 employees.

Just because people shouldn't begrudge them, it happens and it did result in lack of productivity atleast for a short time.

 

[gingerhobbit]

Businesses, big and small, make false claims all the time about how paying a living wage will be the apocalypse.

The truth is that Americans are working just as hard, if not harder, than ever, but their wages have not kept up with their productivity.

From the New York Times:

"From 1973 to 2011, worker productivity grew 80 percent, while median hourly compensation, after inflation, grew by just one-eighth that amount, according to the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal research group. And since 2000, productivity has risen 23 percent while real hourly pay has essentially stagnated."

I don't really feel too bad for franchisees because anyone who did even the least amount of due diligence research before buying into a franchise would know how poorly parent companies are going to treat them.

Independent small businesses are a different story...which is why many of the proposals for increasing the minimum wage to $15/hr have specific exemptions for small businesses. For example, Seattle recently passed a $15/hr minimum wage ordinance...but businesses with fewer than 500 employees don't have to meet that wage until 2021.

Even still, there are small businesses that have figured out ways to pay workers living wages and still be profitable. One example of that is the new trend among restaurants to pay high hourly wages or salaries and eliminate tipping. In many cases, it's led to an increase in profits.

As for the Mickey D's robots...the quality of food is bad enough already. I sure as hell don't want to eat in a place where humans have been removed from the equation.

That's just creepy.

 

[gingerhobbit]

One other thing: People who argue against raising the minimum wage inevitably argue that it will have disastrous effects on the economy. But, not so much, according to economists.

The basic findings are that raising the minimum wage has no significant effect on employment. And, future increases may result in some job loss, but higher overall wages for lower-income families.

 

[SexySteph]

Here's just a random article about minimum wage.

Basically, the gist is while it's a higher dollar amount than it was in the past it's value is lower because minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation. While in the past minimum wage was adequate to live on now it's about impossible without working over time. And I totally get the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality but it's not always that simple. Especially in a world where a college degree is becoming as important as a high school diploma in the job market, people that come from poverty and couldn't afford to go to college don't have many options beyond McD's (and I'm sure there's anecdotal evidence to the contrary but anecdotal evidence is not statistic proof).

Minimum Wage and What it Buys You: 1950s to Now

 

[Jillybean]

I really do wonder what would happen if we removed price ceilings and floors on everything--housing, food, wages ... If everything could be priced at any rate... Companies could offer any wage at all, apartments could charge whatever they wanted for housing...

I am really interested in what would happen once the chaos settles. It would be interesting to see where prices would naturally fall.

Of course, that's a shit idea because although people behave rationally (I totally remember that from Econ 101) I think things would be chaotic for too long until things evened out.

Still, I do think it would be very interesting if governments stopped governing the economy and let the market be 100% free.

 

[Nordling]

Interesting as an academic exercise maybe. But the libertarian economic "utopia" is nonsense. People do not always act rationally. Greed is a powerful force that doesn't just go away...there is no "invisible hand" that makes everything fair. No regulation is as insane as over-regulation.

 

[gingerhobbit]

Interesting as an academic exercise maybe. But the libertarian economic "utopia" is nonsense. People do not always act rationally. Greed is a powerful force that doesn't just go away...there is no "invisible hand" that makes everything fair. No regulation is as insane as over-regulation.

Exactly. The free market people always forget to account for one thing: It's human nature to be predatory and greedy.

 

[EdgarAllenWhoa]

When no one is working...who is going to buy their stuff?

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

One other thing: People who argue against raising the minimum wage inevitably argue that it will have disastrous effects on the economy. But, not so much, according to economists.

The basic findings are that raising the minimum wage has no significant effect on employment. And, future increases may result in some job loss, but higher overall wages for lower-income families.

The thing that is really important about virtually all of these studies is they involve small increases to the minimum wage. A city raised it is minimum wage by $.25 or $.50 and city next door didn't. So yes they don't have a big impact on unemployment but the also don't make much of a different in terms of income. A bigger problem for most min wage workers is the nasty habit of employers giving people 3 and 4 hour split shifts which makes it really hard to balance have two part time minimum wage jobs. So moving the min wage to $10.10 over the several years isn't probably going to have a huge impact

The great thing about the US is that states and cities are free to experiment. We have Seattle, LA and other cities make huge increases to min wage to $15. So by 2020 we should have plenty of real world data to see what the impact on big increases to the minimum wage have on employment. My prediction is that by 2020, there won't be many entry level jobs in Seattle (although it should be fine for engineers at Microsoft, Boeing etc.) but there will a lot of jobs at $10-$11 hour right outside the Seattle city limit. But we will see.

 

[SexySteph]

A bigger problem for most min wage workers is the nasty habit of employers giving people 3 and 4 hour split shifts which makes it really hard to balance have two part time minimum wage jobs.

This is so true too. Inconsistent schedules are an issue as well/

My family always asked why my roommate couldn't help more with bills/rent/groceries/etc and why he didn't have another job. It's hard to juggle 2 jobs when you work 8-12 and 5-9 at your main job or have a schedule that includes 9-5 every day plus on call and the weekends. I always heard "well why doesn't he work nights? He could get off at Job A at 5 and then get a job like Job B from 8pm-2am!" "What about when his schedule is different one week and he doesn't get off till 10?" "He'll just have to call whatever Job B is and let them know! Bosses are understanding" Which sure, sounds great when you're discussing "poor people" with your friends over screwdrivers at the country club but those minimum wage workers are human beings too who want to maybe sleep, see their kids, their partner, get laid, have friends, etc All of which is hard to do if you're working 80 hours a week to make about $507 after taxes. (Jesus christ, that's the first time I've done that math in some time. That's a nauseating number.)

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

This is so true too. Inconsistent schedules are an issue as well/

My family always asked why my roommate couldn't help more with bills/rent/groceries/etc and why he didn't have another job. It's hard to juggle 2 jobs when you work 8-12 and 5-9 at your main job or have a schedule that includes 9-5 every day plus on call and the weekends. I always heard "well why doesn't he work nights? He could get off at Job A at 5 and then get a job like Job B from 8pm-2am!" "What about when his schedule is different one week and he doesn't get off till 10?" "He'll just have to call whatever Job B is and let them know! Bosses are understanding" Which sure, sounds great when you're discussing "poor people" with your friends over screwdrivers at the country club but those minimum wage workers are human beings too who want to maybe sleep, see their kids, their partner, get laid, have friends, etc All of which is hard to do if you're working 80 hours a week to make about $507 after taxes. (Jesus christ, that's the first time I've done that math in some time. That's a nauseating number.)

This is also generation difference that your parents and I didn't have to deal with when we had min wage jobs. Managers when were working made up the schedule by hand. So Steph worked 4-8 PM M-Th and 8-4 PM on Saturday, and so this weeks schedule was the same as last week schedule, except for when Joe was on vacation and he need to make some change. Now days sophisticated computer program will say sales are down 20% after 6 PM on Weds so Steph needs to come in on 2-6 on Wed. Except when Wed is the 15th of the month (pay day) than Steph needs to work 2-8 PM. But Saturdays afternoons are dead when the local college football team is playing an away game, so on those days we only need her from 8-12am. Good fucking luck trying to juggle a second job in this universe.

 

[SexySteph]

This is also generation difference that your parents and I didn't have to deal with when we had min wage jobs. Managers when were working made up the schedule by hand. So Steph worked 4-8 PM M-Th and 8-4 PM on Saturday, and so this weeks schedule was the same as last week schedule, except for when Joe was on vacation and he need to make some change. Now days sophisticated computer program will say sales are down 20% after 6 PM on Weds so Steph needs to come in on 2-6 on Wed. Except when Wed is the 15th of the month (pay day) than Steph needs to work 2-8 PM. But Saturdays afternoons are dead when the local college football team is playing an away game, so on those days we only need her from 8-12am. Good fucking luck trying to juggle a second job in this universe.

Would you be willing to travel around giving speeches to my parents generation about that? That'd be great.

 

[gingerhobbit]

What I tell everyone is, if you can find a way to work for yourself, do it.

The Boomer generation, my parents, could go to work for one company and spend most of their lives there. They might change employers two or three times at most over a 40-year career.

If you were loyal to the company, employers were generally loyal to you. They invested in training you, paid you a decent wage and gave you a pension when you retired.

Finding a job like that now is like finding a unicorn that shits rainbows.

Companies have no loyalty to employees and do not hesitate to switch them out or dump them if it will save a few dollars. Pay is crap, working conditions are Kafka-esque, and health care...pffttt.

But even though employers are cutting pay, benefits and positions, that work still needs to be done. So they outsource.

That means plenty of work for freelancers in just about any profession.

It has its downside...working for yourself is scary, the pay isn't as good and the benefits are only what you can afford. But there are so many more upsides, including a great deal of flexibility and a lot more freedom in who you work for, what you do, and how much you get paid for it.

My advice definitely would be to find a field you love, become skilled at it, and say 'fuck you' to working in some anonymous cubicle.

I don't make a lot of money, but I like the people I work with, I like what I do, and today, I worked from the deck of a bar on the beach.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Just to extend on the robot run store in Phoenix.

McDonald’s To Open 25,000 Robot-Run Restaurants By 2016

The 25,000 stores are set to be completed throughout the United States by the end of 2015. Each restaurant will still employ a small team of 1-3 humans to insure all of the robots are working correctly, the food and cleaning supplies remain stocked along with removing the money collected by the robots. Visitors to the restaurants will see these new robots working in harmony at a speed of 50 times faster than the average human employee, with no chance of error. If the launch for the stores is a success, people can soon expect to see robots located in every McDonald’s all over the country and at restaurants around the world.

“These things are great! They get their work done in a fast and orderly manner, plus they don’t ask for cigarette breaks,” Horner laughed.
“With the increasing demand for a minimum wage of $15/hr and the protests getting worse every day, this is something we have to implement. Plus with the tremendous margin of human error, poor hygiene, lack of education, laziness, as well as the recent advancements in artificial intelligence it just make sense to automate our restaurants now rather than later.”

“Robots are the future of McDonald’s in the United States and around the world,” Horner said, “Human workers want more pay and this has created giant protests which need our attention now before it is too late. Robots will decrease prices, increase productivity and make for better food. Hopefully our first new restaurant run entirely by robots, that opens in Phoenix in just days, will be embraced by customers and also put an end to the negative feedback we have received from some of critics out there.”

McDonald's employs over 1.7 million people. Having a restaurant only needing 1 to 3 people, I'm gonna roughly guess wipes out around 90% of their workforce when they switch all restaurants over to robots. But most of the remaining ones won't be entry level. So the minimum wage won't be a factor then.

And I suspect that number will actually decrease after they get more robotic stores open. You really only need ONE person to make sure food supplies are kept filled and maintain a human presence against vandalism. The rest will be contracted out to vendors covering whole districts. Put together a team that travels to several stores daily to empty money and do other things. In the end it'll probably be an average of around 1.3 people per store once they get in the swing of things. A 'manager' and a roving team that covers a wide area every day.