ok, one line in another thread that i was scanning caught my eye, and its something i've thought about for years. and now i cant get it out of my brain, sooooo ramble time!
the age old time travel question. if you could go back before hitler took power and kill him would you?
normally the question is about the morals of preventing evil, horrible actions with one of your own. ends vs. means. thats not the part im talking about here. i mean if you have thoughts on that, sure throw them in, but its not the point.
the point is... if you did go back and kill hitler before he committed, or caused to be committed atrocities , what would happen? of course major parts of WW2 would be erased, including all the evil he did. but to what end?
you see when he took power it wasnt like he made a military coup of it. he was elected. the reason he was elected was the immense economic and social depression of germany post WW1. the people were dissatisfied, restless and searching for a way to rebuild their nation, their pride, their economy.
most of the main players in the nazi party were still there. most of the ideas were in place. including the aryan ideal. though that one wasnt as widespread or as cruel in its practice.
now, without hitler it is possible that the economy of europe would have gotten even worse post depression. it is certain that here in america it would have taken decades longer for the depression to change. it was the war effort that revitalized our economy for sure.
plus, germany would have remained a stew of resentment and anger for another generation or two.
plus, look at russia of the era. stalin? he was as evil as hitler any day. the only reason russia wasnt a problem for the west til the 50s was because of the war. he was also expansionist in his leanings. it is possible (though unpredictably so) that without hitler it would have been russia sweeping across europe as a conqueror. and let us remember that it was the two front war with the allies that broke the german military.
without russia on one side and britain on the other the war would have been over before america could have even been involved. our country was against becoming involved for the most part... til pearl harbor.
and that is just brushing the surface of how one man and his leadership moved world events. japan was already preparing to move against china before they allied with the axis powers. italy was fully involved in the fascist rule of moussolini.
the world was ready for war in many places, and those wars would have happened at some point without that damned insane austrian paper hanger.
with hitler more or less in charge and driving things ever crazier all the issues and troubles cam to a head in a fairly short span. plus, since he was bat-shit crazy he made many many poor choices that drove germany to failure. if another, saner german leader had started a similar war who knows how it would have turned out?
and im not brushing past the worst of the atrocities of that era. the holocaust, the genocide were the worst example of human evil that the world had known to that point. and to be honest it still stands as the epitome of evil for most people. (despite the fact that it wasnt the last time such things happened... biafra, uganda, etc...)
as horrid, as ugly and painful as those things were, look what happened because of them. israel for one. without the events of that war i doubt the nations of the world in power at the time would have helped that nation come into being. anti-semitism was rife in ALL countries at that time. jews were constant outsiders wherever they were. because they suffered the most some degree of change had to happen in the minds and hearts of the rest of the world. (though we conveniently forgot all the gypsies, gays, blacks and other minorities that were slaughtered and tortured for the most part)
the UN is a direct descendant of the alliances of that era.
because of one man's evil we have a mark on our species that we can all look to and say "never again" we have had nearly 60 years of time in which the majority of the world works together to some extent. yes things like korea and vietnam still happened. the cold war was also a direct result of WW2. the nuclear arms race was too. of course, those things also lead to a newer age with more freedom for the peoples of the old USSR. it led partially to china becoming a player on the world stage rather than remaining closed off unto itself. (with a bit of help from nixon of all people)
so... would i kill hitler if i could?
no way. as bad as things were. as much horror as happened, it could actually have been worse now without that turmoil and evil then. and i have no way of being certain which evils would be unleashed by his death. best case, the depression continued for decades, america falls, europe crumbles into multiple single wars and asia combusts into havok.
worst case? we might not be here at all.without the soviet block and nato having M.A.D. to keep nuclear war from blossoming (no matter how close it came so damn many times) whoever first developed the nukes would have ruled the world, or destroyed it.
the age old time travel question. if you could go back before hitler took power and kill him would you?
normally the question is about the morals of preventing evil, horrible actions with one of your own. ends vs. means. thats not the part im talking about here. i mean if you have thoughts on that, sure throw them in, but its not the point.
the point is... if you did go back and kill hitler before he committed, or caused to be committed atrocities , what would happen? of course major parts of WW2 would be erased, including all the evil he did. but to what end?
you see when he took power it wasnt like he made a military coup of it. he was elected. the reason he was elected was the immense economic and social depression of germany post WW1. the people were dissatisfied, restless and searching for a way to rebuild their nation, their pride, their economy.
most of the main players in the nazi party were still there. most of the ideas were in place. including the aryan ideal. though that one wasnt as widespread or as cruel in its practice.
now, without hitler it is possible that the economy of europe would have gotten even worse post depression. it is certain that here in america it would have taken decades longer for the depression to change. it was the war effort that revitalized our economy for sure.
plus, germany would have remained a stew of resentment and anger for another generation or two.
plus, look at russia of the era. stalin? he was as evil as hitler any day. the only reason russia wasnt a problem for the west til the 50s was because of the war. he was also expansionist in his leanings. it is possible (though unpredictably so) that without hitler it would have been russia sweeping across europe as a conqueror. and let us remember that it was the two front war with the allies that broke the german military.
without russia on one side and britain on the other the war would have been over before america could have even been involved. our country was against becoming involved for the most part... til pearl harbor.
and that is just brushing the surface of how one man and his leadership moved world events. japan was already preparing to move against china before they allied with the axis powers. italy was fully involved in the fascist rule of moussolini.
the world was ready for war in many places, and those wars would have happened at some point without that damned insane austrian paper hanger.
with hitler more or less in charge and driving things ever crazier all the issues and troubles cam to a head in a fairly short span. plus, since he was bat-shit crazy he made many many poor choices that drove germany to failure. if another, saner german leader had started a similar war who knows how it would have turned out?
and im not brushing past the worst of the atrocities of that era. the holocaust, the genocide were the worst example of human evil that the world had known to that point. and to be honest it still stands as the epitome of evil for most people. (despite the fact that it wasnt the last time such things happened... biafra, uganda, etc...)
as horrid, as ugly and painful as those things were, look what happened because of them. israel for one. without the events of that war i doubt the nations of the world in power at the time would have helped that nation come into being. anti-semitism was rife in ALL countries at that time. jews were constant outsiders wherever they were. because they suffered the most some degree of change had to happen in the minds and hearts of the rest of the world. (though we conveniently forgot all the gypsies, gays, blacks and other minorities that were slaughtered and tortured for the most part)
the UN is a direct descendant of the alliances of that era.
because of one man's evil we have a mark on our species that we can all look to and say "never again" we have had nearly 60 years of time in which the majority of the world works together to some extent. yes things like korea and vietnam still happened. the cold war was also a direct result of WW2. the nuclear arms race was too. of course, those things also lead to a newer age with more freedom for the peoples of the old USSR. it led partially to china becoming a player on the world stage rather than remaining closed off unto itself. (with a bit of help from nixon of all people)
so... would i kill hitler if i could?
no way. as bad as things were. as much horror as happened, it could actually have been worse now without that turmoil and evil then. and i have no way of being certain which evils would be unleashed by his death. best case, the depression continued for decades, america falls, europe crumbles into multiple single wars and asia combusts into havok.
worst case? we might not be here at all.without the soviet block and nato having M.A.D. to keep nuclear war from blossoming (no matter how close it came so damn many times) whoever first developed the nukes would have ruled the world, or destroyed it.
