Do you believe that rape culture is real?

[heybarkeep]

 

[EspiKvlt]

I can't tell if that was sarcasm, but yes, that was my exact reaction to that picture, and I actually did stare at it multiple times LMAO

If I saw her on the street I wouldn't, obviously. Luckily this is the Internet.

 

[Booty_4U]

I may be a militant feminist now, but I used to be anti-feminist/abortion. Until I was molested and learned first hand how horrible people can be to victims. So for the past 4+ years since I've been educating myself and engaging with others, I've found anti-feminism and pro-life ideas are mostly founded on misinformation.
Rape/molestation isn't the end of the world for everyone, but it is for A LOT OF PEOPLE. (Maybe even *most* victims?) And yet, there is almost zero justice for victims. That's why the victim narrative needs to be amplified. Victims of rape who "got over it", are already propped up by those who want to silence the victims who actually need help/justice.
If anyone uses "triggered" in what I view as a derogatory manner whilst talking about victims with PTSD, or says people "milk" their trauma for sympathy (which the odd person definitely does do, but the majority do not - most rape victims never talk about their assault and if they do they are shamed for it), watch out because I'll probably give your post a big ol' facepalm! And if anyone honestly don't think groping can ruin someone's life... you're just wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[justjoinedtopost]

If I saw her on the street I wouldn't, obviously. Luckily this is the Internet.

God, that can be such a battle in real life. Half your brain is screaming "DON'T STARE DON'T STARE DON'T STARE", the other half is trying to get control of your eyeballs and point them at the goodies.

I may be a militant feminist now, but I used to be anti-feminist/abortion...

I would like your opinion as a self described militant feminist...

Is rapey staring part of the rape culture problem?

If so, what consequences should there be?

 

[yummybrownfox]

Hardly a tantrum. I just enjoy pointing out how embarrassing some can be and was attempting to have an adult conversation. I'm fully aware that adult conversations aren't your thing so I'll just agree to disagree because trying to have a conversation with you is a guaranteed headache. Please continue to be an embarrassment to anything you represent, I need the chuckles.

Clearly, you're not "agreeing to disagree" since you continue to come on here slinging weak-ass "insults" at anybody who calls you out on your shit. The only embarrassment here is you, my friend.

Now if heybarkeep is all done acting like a whiny little bitch, carry on with the discussion, you guys.

 

[heybarkeep]

Clearly, you're not "agreeing to disagree" since you continue to come on here slinging weak-ass "insults" at anybody who calls you out on your shit. The only embarrassment here is you, my friend.

Now if heybarkeep is all done acting like a whiny little bitch, carry on with the discussion, you guys.

You had a legit temper tantrum recently and made such a fool of yourself that not even the cringiest here could support your buffoonery with their button mashing. The clown you were defending implied that I was victim blaming and claimed my opinion was borderline evil. He then provided no logical reasoning when questioned and proceeded to mash buttons. Please try to be less of an unlikable hypocrite in the future if you choose to engage in conversation with me.

 

[Vera]

This is rambly, heads up.

I posted about this in Models Only but I had a weird ass experience at the thrift store today where a dude came up behind me while I was checking out and whispered, like, hot breath in my ear, "Has anyone told you you're beautiful yet today?" I am not even making this up. I was so off guard I just turned around and stared at him. I can take a compliment but that is very invasive and just icky. I don't even think he meant to freak me out. I think he was genuinely trying to compliment me and just went about it in the least effective way possible.

I don't know. I have been in IRL sexwork as a stripper (retired now) and pro domme, as have some of the other ladies who post here. There are huge issues in both environments but it also kind of inures you to weird behavior. I honestly think a lot of it is how parents raise their kids. If you raise your children to be self-aware and empathetic they will be better able to navigate situations involving attraction, etc. Simultaneously, I think some people genuinely don't know better (Michael Scotts of cross-gender interaction), and they will just shut down when they get called on it.

I think rape culture is real, but I don't think all of it is malicious. And that which is violent and malicious (assault and rape) comes down, a lot of times,to a mental health or control issue on the part of the perpetrator. I can speak from experience as someone who actually dealt with a violent rape by my former fiance (post breakup) about a year and a half ago but I don't feel this is the right venue for details. It fucked me up, it took me a while to move on. I didn't acknowledge it for months and never pressed charges, which I regret immensely. It was awful but it doesn't define me.

Certainly there are people who set themselves up to harm each other emotionally and sexually, but I think a lot of it boils down to not knowing better and not realizing the extent that even catcalling can frustrate women. Hell, I go run in an abandoned parking lot because I got tired of cars honking at me. I think there needs to be a kinder, more border-bridging dialogue between feminists and particularly males of the lower classes. A lot of it comes down to the parents, but when the parents are uninvolved, it comes down to the people children interact with.

The masses aren't going to understand or agree with hardcore feminism. If feminists (and I am one, albeit more second wave) want to truly accomplish something and not just wag their spirit-dicks around, there has to be a dialogue. I get the outrage, I get that people should know better, but when egos get attacked people get reactive. When someone who sees themselves a good human get criticized, they get reactive. It's human nature and if you want them to understand you, you have to try to understand them and talk to them in a constructive way.

People don't want to see the violence. A lot of times it just shuts them down and sends them back to a blissful suburban bubble, or the realities of whatever life they are trying to deal with depending on socioeconomic demographic. But a conversation? And trying to reach out as a source of kindness? That's where progress is made. I know that goes counter to a lot of modern feminism, but you have to do what you got to do to get where you need to go.

Being a reactionary satisfies your ego, make you feel like you have a purpose, but it doesn't do anything for the greater good. As strong women (I am obviously approaching this from a female perspective), we may have to tolerate some misbehavior in the name of getting the message across. There will always be hecklers and always those who take time to come around. HOWEVER.

TAKING THINGS WITH GRACIOUSNESS while steadily trying to educate does more good than anything else. This isn't about being a passive woman, it's about not challenging the ego and circumventing fight or flight instincts. You might be smaller, but you are strategic.

I am a competitive showjumper and handle hyped up European Sporthorses as my masochistic hobby-job a few days a week. If you push them aggressively, they will explode. If you gently correct, you will have more success. There are times for firm correction and times for teaching. It's just animal instinct, and people are just very, very sophisticated animals. So let's be kinder to each other and seek to educate rather than scream.

I struggle with becoming jaded, I really do. I deal with a lot of utilitarian foisting-upon of dick pics, begging for attention, begging to be slaves, people thinking my services are not being paid for and I am openly cunty! It's my schtick. It weighs on a person, and it's totally acceptable to feel burnout and frustration. I have kind of accepted this for my work and capitalize on being the biggest bitch possible, but that can't carry over IRL if you want to be an actual activist outside the interbutts.

 

[yummybrownfox]

You had a legit temper tantrum recently and made such a fool of yourself that not even the cringiest here could support your buffoonery with their button mashing. The clown you were defending implied that I was victim blaming and claimed my opinion was borderline evil. He then provided no logical reasoning when questioned and proceeded to mash buttons. Please try to be less of an unlikable hypocrite in the future if you choose to engage in conversation with me.

Lol at "button mashing." You're really pissed about that rating, huh? If I got my panties in a twist every time someone on here gave me a dislike/facepalm/chill pill/poop rating, I'd be one very pissed off, stressed lady. And I'm pretty sure he answered you already after you childishly called him out, and you still continued to bitch about it. Petty as fuck. It's adorable, though, that you think people on here are gonna explain themselves (their ratings) to you in great detail every time they give you a not-so-nice one.

 

[heybarkeep]

Lol at "button mashing." You're really pissed about that rating, huh? If I got my panties in a twist every time someone on here gave me a dislike/facepalm/chill pill/poop rating, I'd be one very pissed off, stressed lady. And I'm pretty sure he answered you already after you childishly called him out, and you still continued to bitch about it. Petty as fuck. It's adorable, though, that you think people on here are gonna explain themselves (their ratings) to you in great detail every time they give you a not-so-nice once.

Not mad at all and he didn't explain anything. Please stop talking to me if all you want to do is argue.

Eta Queen Cringe liked her post lmao so predictable

 

[yummybrownfox]

Not mad at all and he didn't explain anything. Please stop talking to me if all you want to do is argue.

As soon as you stop quoting my posts butthurtedly, I'll stop talking to you, princess.

 

[AmberCutie]

Lol at "button mashing." You're really pissed about that rating, huh? If I got my panties in a twist every time someone on here gave me a dislike/facepalm/chill pill/poop rating, I'd be one very pissed off, stressed lady. And I'm pretty sure he answered you already after you childishly called him out, and you still continued to bitch about it. Petty as fuck. It's adorable, though, that you think people on here are gonna explain themselves (their ratings) to you in great detail every time they give you a not-so-nice one.

Not mad at all and he didn't explain anything. Please stop talking to me if all you want to do is argue.

Eta Queen Cringe liked her post lmao so predictable

As soon as you stop quoting my posts butthurtedly, I'll stop talking to you, princess.

None of this side discussion is even remotely on topic. Please stop posting in this thread unless it's to discuss the topic, not post ratings.

 

[heybarkeep]

As soon as you stop quoting my posts butthurtedly, I'll stop talking to you, princess.

You provide so many laughs that it can be hard to stop.

 

[heybarkeep]

Sorry Amber, was trying to leave after defending myself. Failed but I did try!

 

[Booty_4U]

I would like your opinion as a self described militant feminist...

Is rapey staring part of the rape culture problem?

If so, what consequences should there be?

Didn't I already answer the first question? And as for consequences, *anything* would probably be better than nothing....

 

[justjoinedtopost]

This is rambly, heads up.

An incredibly good post. Hopefully it isn't lost in the shitpost festival.

It bothers me immensely to hear religious fanatics carry on about subjugating women while an approving congregation murmurs "Amen".
Some of what I have read about "rape culture" bothers me no less.

Didn't I already answer the first question? And as for consequences, *anything* would probably be better than nothing....

Not clearly, no. But I will take that bit of snark to mean yes. Rapey staring is part of rape culture. There need to be consequences...*anything*.

 

[LioraVox]

I've been thinking about what I (personally) consider to be classified as rape culture. Here's what I came up with :
- joking about groping or touching people sexually without their consent
- making jokes about people who have been accused of rape.
- catcalling
- over-sexualizing a photo of a person you find attractive. For example : those weirdo folks that comment on a picture like say my current avatar with "your lips look so good- i want to bite them xD" like... ew bro.. ew..
- people who give compliments w/o respecting personal space. like Vera's experience. You can give a compliment without being all up in another person's bubble
- fuckboy mentally - the "what would you do if i was there? " type of people ( & yes people not just male people)
- telling young girls how to dress as to avoid the adult male gaze
- telling children "if they pick on you then they like you"- this also goes into normalizing violence

 

[deblackivory]

Is rapey staring part of rape culture?

Me when I try not to stare:

I personally feel like it's rude not to check a person out when someone take the time to look gorgeous. I don't mean to be rude. They just catch my eyes like:

But I smile if I get caught and I don't lick my lips while my eyes zoom down their body like:

I also don't catcall. That's gross, aggressive and rude. If they look uncomfortable, I'd apologize wordlessly and move on (though I try not to stare for more than five seconds). Not get closer, get offended or aggressive and blame the person for wearing what they wear.

 

[AudriTwo]

As a rape/sexual assault suviour, I can say fuck lumping rape and cat calling together. Especially staring.


These aren't issues. Like fuck. People being rude innapropriate fucks isn't a RAPE CULTURE.

1/4 or 1/5 women do not get sexually assaulted in college. That has been repeatedly debunked. That study where that number was polled from was a research done in only two Midwest Universities. To say that is national is not accurate.
http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8191448

 

[JickyJuly]

I think the consequence of leering dudes, is one that the rest of us pay not them. If you look at someone too long, you're assumed to be a creeper and met with hostility. The dudes (maybe women as well?) who stare rudely and sexually at women do it to get noticed and to enjoy making the woman feel lesser. I'm not sure if it's a common thing (it doesn't happen to me here, but I'm older and usually have a kid or 2 in tow), but where I'm from, it is hard to walk into a gas station as a woman. There is always some loitering idiot waiting there to make eyes and lips and "hey mama" at you. I think some women become weary and start putting on armor at the first glance they notice.

Funnily enough, I actually had a girl get bitchy at me for staring at her last year. I don't average a lot of sleep. I zone out A LOT. I'm tired, man. I was in line waiting to pay for gas and drinks. The girl behind the counter had a tattoo above her cleavage, and I started trying to read it. I couldn't figure out what it said and then got lost in thought. Next thing I know, I'm getting attitude like I was pervin'. So awkward.

 

[cherrybomb1111]

I can't really say if rape culture exists or not. But what I do know is,

Our society does not view rape as good, or normal. Nor do we take it lightly.
Our society does educate female on ways to protect themselves from being in a vulnerable situation.
Our society also teaches boys to respect women's body and always ask for consent before having sex. Yes means yes and No means NO. That without consent is it rape and it is WRONG.
Our society provides resources to women and men alike that have been raped. This includes medical resources and testing kits. The law is on the victims side. There are support groups online and off for women that have suffered through sexual assault rape. There are rape hotlines, and there is even a rape crisis center close to me.
Our society punishes anyone who is proven guilty of raping another individual. The average prison sentence of a convicted rapist is 5.5 years. They are then a convicted felon for life, and put on the sex offender list which is open to the public.

There is not much more that our state and justice system can do for this issue. This is the most progressive in the right direction that any society has ever been as far as rape and sexual assault. I can't honestly think of one point in history where rape and sexual assault are being faced head on and dealt with like it is now. And despite all of those efforts it still happens because even with the schools educating children about the issues people are still slipping through the cracks.

It really takes a village to minimize sexual assault and rape. This means that as parents and adults we have to teach the younger generation the knowledge that we have.

As someone that has been a victim of molestation, sexual assault and rape multiple times in my life i wish i had know that i was justified to tell someone. I wish my parents had given me the knowledge to protect myself better.
But i was young a naive at one point and thought that i would be in trouble for what happened to me.
I was married in other situations and my ex husband would violently rape me frequently, but i thought that i had no say in what was done to me because i was married to him.
And in the most recent situation i got black out drunk for the first time in my life. Even knowing my alcohol limit i was still trying to be "cool" and go shot for shot with someone and things happened when i passed out. I take partial responsibility because i knew better than that.

Some would argue that my state of mind in all three of those situations is a part of the "rape culture"
I feel that it is the lack of education on the subject in my upbringing that had a lot to do with how i viewed my situations. If anyone else had known about my situations immediate action might have been taken on my behalf. If i had known that i do have a right to my body no matter the situation, then i might have viewed things differently. But i guess i only viewed it as "just how things were." That's why i like that women now are being encouraged to speak out and men are being taught to not touch without permission.

All three of my abusers were raised in abusive homes with abusive fathers and mothers. When a child watches how his father treats his mother he is possibly going to carry those same habits into his future encounters with women (lack of respect). If only we could break these generational curses then a lot more people would be safe and with a better concept of right and wrong. Unfortunately a lot of societal issues originate in the home.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Funnily enough, I actually had a girl get bitchy at me for staring at her last year. I don't average a lot of sleep. I zone out A LOT. I'm tired, man. I was in line waiting to pay for gas and drinks. The girl behind the counter had a tattoo above her cleavage, and I started trying to read it. I couldn't figure out what it said and then got lost in thought. Next thing I know, I'm getting attitude like I was pervin'. So awkward.

Sometimes I walk around lost in thought, I have had an instance or two like that, staring off absentmindedly without realizing it was creeping somebody out.

Here is another one, I didn't want to share. But since you have triggered me...

I was alone. Standing in a line behind a gang of 3-4 guys and 3-4 girls. They were having a rowdy good time. I was minding my own business.

One of the girls was really showing out, cutting up, loud, clowning...center of attention. Maybe she was running low on material, idk, but out of the clear blue she stuck her face out at me, opened her eyes wide, and sneered "Take a picture it lasts longer". Her little gang just thought it was hilarious, went into gales of laughter.

I was not staring at her; I was just in the right place at the right time to be the punch line for one of her jokes. It was embarrassing, it was humiliating, and later I was pissed at myself for doing the right thing and standing there quietly.

Can we all bow our heads for a moment in observance of my pain? All the men, women, and children who have suffered numerous indignities down through the ages, both sexual and otherwise...I share in their suffering.

As someone that has been a victim of molestation, sexual assault and rape multiple times in my life i wish i had know that i was justified to tell someone. I wish my parents had given me the knowledge to protect myself better.
But i was young a naive at one point and thought that i would be in trouble for what happened to me.

This.

I alluded to this in another thread, I doubt I expressed myself well. Stop dwelling so much on the act, start educating more about the fears that victim after victim after victim points to as a reason for why they didn't come forward.

 

[LioraVox]

Am I the only person that views rape as another entity and separate from rape culture? I ask this because a lot of posts keep going back to rape or instances of committed sexual assault. And how some things aren't/shouldn't be classified as rape culture because "its not aggressive". To me, rape culture is taking what rape is at the core - invading someone's personal space with sexual intent - and normalizing it.

As for catcalling being a part of rape culture. I think it is because catcalling is the act of verbally (outwardly) objectifying a person in a sexual manner. And if we're being honest there's levels to everything - catcalling has it's own levels of aggressiveness: verbal compliments with or without stepping closer to the person, verbal compliments about a physical attribute of said person, "cornering" a person to give them compliments on their appearance.
-"Hey ma! You looking good!" -not bad or aggressive but can catch someone off guard.
- "Hey ma! You got a fat ass!!" or the like.. definitely objectifying and sexualizing.
- People who get really up close to say "hey, you're beautiful"
- People who have followed along someone as they walk down the street just to "talk" to them
- People who have followed someone into shops to "talk" to them and in the end prevent said person from leaving said shop for any amount of time
Classifying catcalling as rape culture is acknowledging the fact that while it's not always aggressive nor physically assaulting it is still an invasion of your personal space, and is subjecting you to the aggressors sexual advances.

People can compliment me all day long.. but it's the distance & tone in which they do it that makes me uncomfortable. It's the mildly aggressive act of having to be RIGHT NEXT to me.. in my face to say "hey I think you look good". It's the act of being stopped from what I'm doing by a person who wants to tell me I'm attractive..and then them proceeding to go beyond that and trying to get my number or give me theirs or them asking where I'm headed to - basically inviting themselves to tag along. If the person is yelling compliments at me, it's demanding my attention - if I don't acknowledge this person I'm the asshole because they were just being nice and giving me a compliment.

 

[Mila_]

If "rape culture" has nothing to do with rape, perhaps we should change the term to "staring culture" instead.

 

[Aella]

I've only skimmed responses so far, but:

I suspect the disagreement over rape culture comes heavily from pocket communities. Some specific pockets *do* have the whole "bro frat jocks jeering and fistbumping over that pic of a girl that got leaked and jokes a little too often about all the alcohol they're gonna feed to the chicks at their parties"

but I'm starting to get the impression that this exists in really specific pockets in specific communities. For example, I once talked to a girl who shared my views on mostly everything. She said that she thought sexism no longer existed, that rape culture was a myth, that women were treated equally, and had experienced this her whole life - until she got a specific job in a specific company.

So I think people who believe rape culture exists are people who've had experiences, frequently harmful, with these pockets.

And people who think it doesn't exist are people who've lived their whole lives witnessing men being nothing but respectful and kind to women.

So if these two groups clash, assuming that each other must have had the same experience, then the first group comes off as oversensitive and eager to play the victim, while the second group appears to be insensitive and privileged assholes.

These are sometimes true yes! But I think probably a huge amount of the time the problem actually comes down to really different cultural experiences.

--

Me personally? As a 25 year old woman who's lived in 6 cities in the last 5 years and spent a full year of it traveling, I don't think I've ever experienced rape culture. Lucky? Maybe, sure - but it's just a demonstration that some people can live their lives, eyes wide open, and only ever see humans treating one another kindly.

 

[LioraVox]

Didn't say rape culture has NOTHING to do with rape. I said I view it as different entities- rape is aggressive, predatory, harmful / rape culture is normalizing and minimalizing the aggressive-predatory behavior. "To me, rape culture is taking what rape is at the core - invading someone's personal space with sexual intent - and normalizing it."

As an example: I personally would not claim rape because a person catcalled me or brushed their hand against my boobs or ass, as I believe it devalues actual rape cases. But I wholeheartedly believe that the person who is doing those things to whatever degree is pushing their sexual advances onto me. And that's because we live within a society that says as long as you aren't forcing sex onto someone it's cool it playfully brush up on a tit or a dick every now and again, just ya know be as uncreepy about it as possible and you'll be fine.

 

[Vera]

@Kitsune I would be interested to see what, exactly, you disagree with regarding my post. The notion of malicious vs. non malicious sexual behavior? How it manifests? My post centers around people being less awful to each other, and taking steps to try to help the next generation be more educated than the former in order to mitigate violence and harassment.

I know you are an Essentialist and I am an Existentialist (staunchly) so the head butting is inherent but I am curious about what point or points of mine pushed the "disagree" button. We'll most likely disagree as a matter of epistemology but most of your points are incredibly well spoken so I am curious about this.

 

[Mila_]

me, rape culture is taking what rape is at the core - invading someone's personal space with sexual intent - and normalizing it."

Rape, at its core, is putting your penis or another penetrating object inside a woman's vagina against her will. Cutting a line at the post office while invading someone else's space, and while rude, is not in essence raping them. Staring at them on the street is not raping them in essence, and neither is complimenting them even if it is done in a creepy way. Using the term "rape culture" to put these behaviors in the proximity of rape is dishonest.

 

[Vera]

Ok, I am entirely too sleep-deprived, but I will say perhaps it would be nice if we just brought back "sexual harassment" rather than using rap culture as a zeitgeist. Or perhaps developed a better term. Rape has serious connotations that, I feel, are diluted by throwing it around and devalue the experiences of actual rape victims. Boundary-crossing behaviors exist in spades, and while they are incredibly uncomfortable and may be an indicator of future awfulness, are their own thing.

 

[Mila_]

think there needs to be a kinder, more border-bridging dialogue between feminists and particularly males of the lower classes.

I disagree with this. I think feminists do not respect men, masculinity, or male spaces. They want to invade everything with their sensitivity courses, even the military. I also dont believe violence is entirely a matter of social class, if anything it seems to me that the problem is on the top of the pyramid as opposed to the bottom. So saying they need to focus on lower class males is something I disagree with.

People don't want to see the violence. A lot of times it just shuts them down and sends them back to a blissful suburban bubble, or the realities of whatever life they are trying to deal with depending on socioeconomic demographic. But a conversation? And trying to reach out as a source of kindness? That's where progress is made. I know that goes counter to a lot of modern feminism, but you have to do what you got to do to get where you need to go.

I also disagree with your tone here and in the majority of your post. It is condescending. I am not blissfully blind to the patriarchy and its rape culture. I am not a suburban queen. Feminist views dont offend me although the tone of perpetual hysteria can be annoying af. But my point is: the people who disagree with you dont disagree because they are stupid, misinformed, or dont know better. Belittling your ideological opposition is precisely why Trump won and feminists where so shocked and had to be treated again for PTSD and depression over the results.

I disagree with feminists in principle, philosophically, morally and in my gut. This will not change depending on how soft your gloves are when you throw your punches.

 

[Vera]

@Kitsune, Good talk. Though I am very interested to hear how you propose to solve the issue of sexual violence. It is very easy to critique but far more difficult to propose solutions, and I thought mine was quite workable given the goal in my post is to prevent violence rather than further an ideology. I am speaking theoretically and haven't run numbers so please wait to ask me to do higher math until at least 1 PM GMT.

I do agree that there is violence in the upper class, yes, but I feel that falls into its own class given its inherent small-ness and probably requires a distinct approach. (I just make porn, I got nothing on that one. If you do? Very interested.) I think that comes down to disgusting entitlement. As far as the bulk of violence goes, though, I think resources are best aimed at the everyman and lower class rather than hyper wealthy... for better or worse.

At no point did I condescend intentionally but "death of the author" and all so interpret as you will. I think you are transposing some of my posts from the other thread into this particular post, which I attempted to keep separate. That's its own monster, and while I could have been more tactful I don't regret the spirit of anything I said.

You are so very more than welcome to disagree! I disagree with you wholeheartedly and in similar gut regions but discourse never hurt.