Debate on Language, Flags... Stuff...

AedanRayne · Aug 22, 2012

An awesome, fun thread was recently derailed with a debate. I certainly don't mind if ya'll want to have a debate but how about start a new thread for it? This discussion must be a hot one that will get lots of attention if you're willing to spend 2 pages talking about it.

I got screencaps for the new people who want to join in on the discussion.

Part 1 - The 1st post and so on...

Some of the images won't upload... so, I apologize is important parts of the discussion are left out but you can find the original thread if you are confuzzled.

Have fun folks!

AedanRayne · Aug 22, 2012

Nordling · Aug 22, 2012

Thanks Aedan!

I'll start.

The word "English" is a form of the word "England," which is the most populous country in the United Kingdom, and though incorrect, many people even refer to Britain as "England." When it comes to language, anything other than the British flag makes no sense. Yeah, the US has a larger population, but I imagine the largest glob of world-wide English speakers are from neither the US or the UK. Add up the English speakers in India, Canada, New Zealand, Pakistan, Australia, South Africa, etc, etc, etc, and we have a good argument for using the COUNTRY OF ORIGIN OF THE LANGUAGE as the symbol of that language.

AmberCutie · Aug 22, 2012

Whoa, I didn't even realize people still used the pink theme for this forum! Nice. :thumbleft:

sweetiebatman · Aug 22, 2012

AmberCutie said:
Whoa, I didn't even realize people still used the pink theme for this forum! Nice. :thumbleft:

On topic please Amber :whistle: :biggrin:

AmberCutie · Aug 22, 2012

sweetiebatman said:
AmberCutie said:

Whoa, I didn't even realize people still used the pink theme for this forum! Nice. :thumbleft:

Click to expand...

On topic please Amber :whistle: :biggrin:

:angry4: :angry4:

Fine! I'll note a topic that an MFC friend of mine had to politely agree to disagree on last night.

Guys come in my chat and speak full-blown spanish/french/whatever to me. I personally find it disrespectful to go up to a person either IRL, or in a video chat, and deliberately say things to them in a manner that they cannot understand. Clearly, I am speaking English, as are all the other members in my room, so to come in and speak a different language irritates me. If I had noted on my profile that I am multi-lingual, or was previously speaking another language, then I'd understand.

My friend said he thought it was nice because "at least they are saying nice things, and are trying to communicate." I mean, obviously I would have to go use a translator (either digital or a person) to see what they said, which is already a party foul as that takes me away from everything else I am doing at the time. And yes, it would be much worse if they were saying mean things, but either way, I think it's a bit disrespectful and a little demanding (since their comments take much more effort to understand/interact with.)

Thoughts?

Edit to add: :lol: Jawbs agrees with my friend and says I am being too picky and a bit rude myself. Maybe so? I dunno. Either way, he started playing this song for me. :lol:

sweetiebatman · Aug 22, 2012

I was only joking Amber!

But to your point yes, I find it incredibly frustrating and rude in everyday life when those who can speak English choose to speak their own first language

loveyougipsy · Aug 22, 2012

Takes deep breath...

The computer I'm typing this on has 15 different types of English as a language selection. Why 15? because there are 15 different versions depending on the country. Are we really saying that all 15 countries should use the US flag because that has the most people?

Why does the flag for English matter? For the same reason I spell colour with a u, legalize with an s and why using license or licence makes a difference.
The flag is a fast visual indicator for which version of English I can expect.

My friends Brazilian wife will tell you that Brazilian Portuguese is not European Portuguese, yes they can understand each other and for her parents visiting it's easier for them going to Portugal than the UK, but you'd better be wearing armour or already running if you try and tell her they're the same.

Evvie · Aug 22, 2012

AmberCutie said:
sweetiebatman said:

AmberCutie said:

Whoa, I didn't even realize people still used the pink theme for this forum! Nice. :thumbleft:

Click to expand...

On topic please Amber :whistle: :biggrin:

Click to expand...

:angry4: :angry4:

Fine! I'll note a topic that an MFC friend of mine had to politely agree to disagree on last night.

Guys come in my chat and speak full-blown spanish/french/whatever to me. I personally find it disrespectful to go up to a person either IRL, or in a video chat, and deliberately say things to them in a manner that they cannot understand. Clearly, I am speaking English, as are all the other members in my room, so to come in and speak a different language irritates me. If I had noted on my profile that I am multi-lingual, or was previously speaking another language, then I'd understand.

My friend said he thought it was nice because "at least they are saying nice things, and are trying to communicate." I mean, obviously I would have to go use a translator (either digital or a person) to see what they said, which is already a party foul as that takes me away from everything else I am doing at the time. And yes, it would be much worse if they were saying mean things, but either way, I think it's a bit disrespectful and a little demanding (since their comments take much more effort to understand/interact with.)

Thoughts?

Edit to add: :lol: Jawbs agrees with my friend and says I am being too picky and a bit rude myself. Maybe so? I dunno. Either way, he started playing this song for me. :lol:

I am definitely not fluent in any language except English, but I can carry out basic conversations in Spanish.

However, I have noted that when someone starts to speak to me in another language (usually French or Spanish) and I make any attempt to communicate with them in their language, they just don't quit. This may be that there are fewer models who speak their native language, but when I try to excuse myself from the conversation when I don't understand what is being said, I have been told on several occasions to use a translator or they ignore my goodbye (literally, one fellow said, "not goodbye, talk to me") and spam to try and get a response.

My life experience tells me that just because you speak a language it doesn't make you rude, so I have to wonder if there is some causation between the sudden increase in this sort of behavior due to my recent attempts to communicate more outside of English.

And, as I understand it, loveyougipsy is rather correct. There are separate classes at my college for Spain Spanish as opposed to Mexican Spanish. The use of an American flag often literally means American English - ever been to a giant conglomerate website where you choose from fifty little flags for your language? They have both the British and American flags, because our two Englishes are different.

The original model who used the American flag to indicate she spoke English was probably faced with the option of choosing that, the British flag, or another couple of alternatives, and she chose the American flag because she speaks American English, not the European kind.

Shaun__ · Aug 22, 2012

Nordling said:
Thanks Aedan!

I'll start.

The word "English" is a form of the word "England," which is the most populous country in the United Kingdom, and though incorrect, many people even refer to Britain as "England." When it comes to language, anything other than the British flag makes no sense. Yeah, the US has a larger population, but I imagine the largest glob of world-wide English speakers are from neither the US or the UK. Add up the English speakers in India, Canada, New Zealand, Pakistan, Australia, South Africa, etc, etc, etc, and we have a good argument for using the COUNTRY OF ORIGIN OF THE LANGUAGE as the symbol of that language.

The country of origin would be Germany, so that makes no sense at all.

English is a West Germanic language that originated from the Anglo-Frisian dialects brought to Britain by Germanic invaders and/or settlers from various parts of what is now northwest Germany and the Netherlands. Initially, Old English was a diverse group of dialects, reflecting the varied origins of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms of Britain. One of these dialects, Late West Saxon, eventually came to dominate.

sweetiebatman · Aug 22, 2012

To simply try to point out "countries of origin" is to completely misunderstand the nature of language. Language evolves over time, and, as is to be expected of a small strategically important island throughout history the British Isles have been invaded and assimilated into many many times. Even in today's English there are words derived from Old Norse, French, German, Latin, Hindi etc etc

Some might argue it is The British Empires greatest gift to the world :handgestures-salute: :thumbleft:

Evvie · Aug 22, 2012

sweetiebatman said:
To simply try to point out "countries of origin" is to completely misunderstand the nature of language. Language evolves over time, and, as is to be expected of a small strategically important island throughout history the British Isles have been invaded and assimilated into many many times. Even in today's English there are words derived from Old Norse, French, German, Latin, Hindi etc etc

Some might argue it is The British Empires greatest gift to the world :handgestures-salute: :thumbleft:

:happy1:

Shaun__ · Aug 22, 2012

sweetiebatman said:
To simply try to point out "countries of origin" is to completely misunderstand the nature of language. Language evolves over time, and, as is to be expected of a small strategically important island throughout history the British Isles have been invaded and assimilated into many many times. Even in today's English there are words derived from Old Norse, French, German, Latin, Hindi etc etc

Some might argue it is The British Empires greatest gift to the world :handgestures-salute: :thumbleft:

You are right that English is great at incorporating foreign words into itself. I believe this versatility is why it has spread so far across the world. Some countries view any outside influence as a corruption of their language instead of a gift. France always seems to be fighting this battle. Does anyone know if French Canadians also feel this way or if they try to fold in other languages and make them their own?

Kradek · Aug 22, 2012

FWIW, using a flag to represent a language is generally considered a bad idea in user experience design circles.

What I was trying to convey above is that symbols are tools for communication and should be tailored to the audience. In this case, as seen by this very debate, using a flag is not the best way to go.

From w3.org (the organization that manages the HTML specification) "Internationalization Best Practices: Specifying Language in XHTML & HTML Content":

Best Practice 16: Using flags to indicate languages
Do not use flag icons to indicate languages.

Shaun__ · Aug 22, 2012

Kradek said:
FWIW, using a flag to represent a language is generally considered a bad idea in user experience design circles.

What I was trying to convey above is that symbols are tools for communication and should be tailored to the audience. In this case, as seen by this very debate, using a flag is not the best way to go.

I always thought the word English would be a better way to do it, but I assumed they were trying to help semi-literate users as well. Like the pictures on cash registers at some fast food places.

Evvie · Aug 22, 2012

Shaun__ said:
Kradek said:

FWIW, using a flag to represent a language is generally considered a bad idea in user experience design circles.

What I was trying to convey above is that symbols are tools for communication and should be tailored to the audience. In this case, as seen by this very debate, using a flag is not the best way to go.

Click to expand...

I always thought the word English would be a better way to do it, but I assumed they were trying to help semi-literate users as well. Like the pictures on cash registers at some fast food places.

Well, yes, please forgive all the offensiveness that's about to come out of my face, but I feel it is hard to tailor a website to semi-literate people in the first place. The web is certainly multi-media but the written word is used to control and communicate most elements on the average website.

Kradek · Aug 22, 2012

Shaun__ said:
I always thought the word English would be a better way to do it

Yes, generally. Consider Wikipedia, or the BBC (scroll to the bottom).

Nordling · Aug 22, 2012

Shaun__ said:
Nordling said:

Thanks Aedan!

I'll start.

The word "English" is a form of the word "England," which is the most populous country in the United Kingdom, and though incorrect, many people even refer to Britain as "England." When it comes to language, anything other than the British flag makes no sense. Yeah, the US has a larger population, but I imagine the largest glob of world-wide English speakers are from neither the US or the UK. Add up the English speakers in India, Canada, New Zealand, Pakistan, Australia, South Africa, etc, etc, etc, and we have a good argument for using the COUNTRY OF ORIGIN OF THE LANGUAGE as the symbol of that language.

Click to expand...

The country of origin would be Germany, so that makes no sense at all.

English is a West Germanic language that originated from the Anglo-Frisian dialects brought to Britain by Germanic invaders and/or settlers from various parts of what is now northwest Germany and the Netherlands. Initially, Old English was a diverse group of dialects, reflecting the varied origins of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms of Britain. One of these dialects, Late West Saxon, eventually came to dominate.

Click to expand...

No, the country of origin for ENGLISH is England. Not Anglo-Saxon, Old English, Middle English, Germano-Something-Or-Other. English is in the Germanic FAMILY of Indo-European languages. But its origin is wholly within England, and it's development was influenced by German, Danish, Gaelic, Latin, Norman French, and Odin knows what else. Even German, if you want to use your logic has it's origin in somewhere besides Germany. The Teutonics and other tribes that became modern day Northern Europeans came from somewhere else...probably north of India or Central Asia.

SoTxBob · Aug 22, 2012

I'm sure my thought of logic is completely incorrect... BUT.. I would simply think that for English or 'Merican', its simply a matter of recognition. USA flag I'd imagine is recognized in most corners of the world and the english language is associated with it thusly. If you start hair splitting to origins how far back do you go?

No matter tho, it's not worth dragging out my flat rock to piss on over it. Somebody pass me a beer please... :mrgreen:

Shaun__ · Aug 22, 2012

Evvie said:
Well, yes, please forgive all the offensiveness that's about to come out of my face, but I feel it is hard to tailor a website to semi-literate people in the first place. The web is certainly multi-media but the written word is used to control and communicate most elements on the average website.

Clicks on the web are money, and turning away potential clicks is not something commercially driven sites like to do. Every level they get you to enter is more page views, and another chance to monetize your presence.

The thought of not being able to read is such a sad one for me, books were such an important part of my life as a child.

Nordling said:
No, the country of origin for ENGLISH is England. Not Anglo-Saxon, Old English, Middle English, Germano-Something-Or-Other. English is in the Germanic FAMILY of Indo-European languages. But its origin is wholly within England, and it's development was influenced by German, Danish, Gaelic, Latin, Norman French, and Odin knows what else. Even German, if you want to use your logic has it's origin in somewhere besides Germany. The Teutonics and other tribes that became modern day Northern Europeans came from somewhere else...probably north of India or Central Asia.

Modern English started around the same time as the colonization of the North America, so that would have been a joint effort.

From around 1600, the English colonization of North America resulted in the creation of a distinct American variety of English. Some English pronunciations and words "froze" when they reached America. In some ways, American English is more like the English of Shakespeare than modern British English is. Some expressions that the British call "Americanisms" are in fact original British expressions that were preserved in the colonies while lost for a time in Britain (for example trash for rubbish, loan as a verb instead of lend, and fall for autumn; another example, frame-up, was re-imported into Britain through Hollywood gangster movies). Spanish also had an influence on American English (and subsequently British English), with words like canyon, ranch, stampede and vigilante being examples of Spanish words that entered English through the settlement of the American West. French words (through Louisiana) and West African words (through the slave trade) also influenced American English (and so, to an extent, British English).

Today, American English is particularly influential, due to the USA's dominance of cinema, television, popular music, trade and technology (including the Internet). But there are many other varieties of English around the world, including for example Australian English, New Zealand English, Canadian English, South African English, Indian English and Caribbean English.

Also I found a kick ass picture of Germanic influence. I never knew they started so much.

Nordling · Aug 22, 2012

SoTxBob said:
I'm sure my thought of logic is completely incorrect... BUT.. I would simply think that for English or 'Merican', its simply a matter of recognition. USA flag I'd imagine is recognized in most corners of the world and the english language is associated with it thusly. If you start hair splitting to origins how far back do you go?

No matter tho, it's not worth dragging out my flat rock to piss on over it. Somebody pass me a beer please... :mrgreen:

:lol: If there is an instance where it's important that one convey "American dialects of English spoken here" I agree. But English, in its modern form, that is, understood by Brits, Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and others, owes its development and origin to England. Just as Mexican Spanish is understood by those who speak Castilian, which my Spanish teacher informed me was the "standard," kind of like saying "The Queen's English."

Nordling · Aug 22, 2012

I would put the beginning of "Modern English" quite a bit earlier... Shakespeare's time. We can understand Shakespeare as easily as someone from Chicago can understand someone from Mississippi.

Shaun__ · Aug 22, 2012

Nordling said:
I would put the beginning of "Modern English" quite a bit earlier... Shakespeare's time. We can understand Shakespeare as easily as someone from Chicago can understand someone from Mississippi.

Historians disagree with you, the best I saw for you would be 100 years prior. The truth is that no country can claim any language, it belongs to the people not the dirt they stand on.

sweetiebatman · Aug 22, 2012

Shaun__ said:
Evvie said:

Well, yes, please forgive all the offensiveness that's about to come out of my face, but I feel it is hard to tailor a website to semi-literate people in the first place. The web is certainly multi-media but the written word is used to control and communicate most elements on the average website.

Click to expand...

Clicks on the web are money, and turning away potential clicks is not something commercially driven sites like to do. Every level they get you to enter is more page views, and another chance to monetize your presence.

The thought of not being able to read is such a sad one for me, books were such an important part of my life as a child.

Nordling said:

No, the country of origin for ENGLISH is England. Not Anglo-Saxon, Old English, Middle English, Germano-Something-Or-Other. English is in the Germanic FAMILY of Indo-European languages. But its origin is wholly within England, and it's development was influenced by German, Danish, Gaelic, Latin, Norman French, and Odin knows what else. Even German, if you want to use your logic has it's origin in somewhere besides Germany. The Teutonics and other tribes that became modern day Northern Europeans came from somewhere else...probably north of India or Central Asia.

Click to expand...

Modern English started around the same time as the colonization of the North America, so that would have been a joint effort.

From around 1600, the English colonization of North America resulted in the creation of a distinct American variety of English. Some English pronunciations and words "froze" when they reached America. In some ways, American English is more like the English of Shakespeare than modern British English is. Some expressions that the British call "Americanisms" are in fact original British expressions that were preserved in the colonies while lost for a time in Britain (for example trash for rubbish, loan as a verb instead of lend, and fall for autumn; another example, frame-up, was re-imported into Britain through Hollywood gangster movies). Spanish also had an influence on American English (and subsequently British English), with words like canyon, ranch, stampede and vigilante being examples of Spanish words that entered English through the settlement of the American West. French words (through Louisiana) and West African words (through the slave trade) also influenced American English (and so, to an extent, British English).

Today, American English is particularly influential, due to the USA's dominance of cinema, television, popular music, trade and technology (including the Internet). But there are many other varieties of English around the world, including for example Australian English, New Zealand English, Canadian English, South African English, Indian English and Caribbean English.

Click to expand...

Also I found a kick ass picture of Germanic influence. I never knew they started so much.

You do realize the Germanic refers to Northern Europe extending up into Scandanavia and has NO links to Germany as we know it? bar the fact it is where the country derived its name

Nordling · Aug 22, 2012

Shaun__ said:
Nordling said:

I would put the beginning of "Modern English" quite a bit earlier... Shakespeare's time. We can understand Shakespeare as easily as someone from Chicago can understand someone from Mississippi.

Click to expand...

Historians disagree with you, the best I saw for you would be 100 years prior. The truth is that no country can claim any language, it belongs to the people not the dirt they stand on.

:lol: Well, yeah, but I don't think anyone's arguing "ownership" or Copyrights. lol What the discussion is...what is the most appropriate designation, as an icon or symbol for the English language. I point to the WORD "english." Which is a form of the word "england."

I don't have anything against discussing the cross pollination of language that occurs everywhere in the world and is a never-ending process. But I simply think it's way too egotistical of us Americans to claim the "proper" symbol for our native language.

Shaun__ · Aug 22, 2012

sweetiebatman said:
You do realize the Germanic refers to Northern Europe extending up into Scandanavia and has NO links to Germany as we know it? bar the fact it is where the country derived its name

You know tribes used to run around before people decided countries were a great idea, and none of the modern countries have much to do with the past right?

Nordling said:
:lol: Well, yeah, but I don't think anyone's arguing "ownership" or Copyrights. lol What the discussion is...what is the most appropriate designation, as an icon or symbol for the English language. I point to the WORD "english." Which is a form of the word "england."

I don't have anything against discussing the cross pollination of language that occurs everywhere in the world and is a never-ending process. But I simply think it's way too egotistical of us Americans to claim the "proper" symbol for our native language.

America used to be part of the British Empire, so as far as I am concerned you can add grand theft language to the other charges laid against us when we rebelled. Like I said before we have the same ancestry as you do, and moving across an ocean does not change that. Just because your ancestors were homebodies does not give you any extra rights to world history.

Nordling · Aug 22, 2012

Shaun__ said:
sweetiebatman said:

You do realize the Germanic refers to Northern Europe extending up into Scandanavia and has NO links to Germany as we know it? bar the fact it is where the country derived its name

Click to expand...

You know tribes used to run around before people decided countries were a great idea, and none of the modern countries have much to do with the past right?

Nordling said:

:lol: Well, yeah, but I don't think anyone's arguing "ownership" or Copyrights. lol What the discussion is...what is the most appropriate designation, as an icon or symbol for the English language. I point to the WORD "english." Which is a form of the word "england."

I don't have anything against discussing the cross pollination of language that occurs everywhere in the world and is a never-ending process. But I simply think it's way too egotistical of us Americans to claim the "proper" symbol for our native language.

Click to expand...

America used to be part of the British Empire, so as far as I am concerned you can add grand theft language to the other charges laid against us when we rebelled. Like I said before we have the same ancestry as you do, and moving across an ocean does not change that. Just because your ancestors were homebodies does not give you any extra rights to world history.

I'm not sure what you're arguing? Who wants to censor history?

Modern English, in the sense of that language that Americans, British, Canadians, South Africans, and many many others can understand developed in England. Was it affected by outside influences? Sure. Did the language travel to other lands? Sure did...Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India...few people can name all the countries with large, English-speaking populations from memory.

Who was MOST responsible for this spread? The British Empire. Yeah, we Americans tried to get in the game too but not with near the success (?).

bob · Aug 22, 2012

holy moly!!!!

coupla thoughts about language, flags....stuff
1/ lotta members don't read profiles on mfc...i've seen too many speak to foreign models without a clue that their speaking to someone whose english skills are rudimentary....it tends to be a pretty america-centric site
2/ lotta members don't speak english as their first language on some of the other sites i know....those sites tend to use the british flag, imo, because it's "closer to home"....either geographically or culturally
3/ i'm guessing that for some guys, it feels pretty cool/romantic/exotic/whatever to say something nice to a model in a language she may not know....the same way guys think it endears them to a model to say something in their native language, if it's not english
4/within limits that have been discussed in depth across this forum....the old adage that the "customer is always right" holds true for videochat too.....sure it can be frustrating to have some clown talking ad nauseum in a language you don't know, and the chances are he knows enough english to understand the words "speak english"....if it's worth the trouble (i.e. there's tokens showing :lol: ), you can try and figure out a way to work it out with him.....or you can ignore him or ban his cul/culo/cur/задница

sorry...i guess i'm just not getting the importance of this :twocents-02cents:

Shaun__ · Aug 22, 2012

bob said:
holy moly!!!!sorry...i guess i'm just not getting the importance of this :twocents-02cents:

It is a matter of national pride, and I was bored. I also had a headache and wanted to yell at someone.

Nordling said:
I'm not sure what you're arguing? Who wants to censor history?

Modern English, in the sense of that language that Americans, British, Canadians, South Africans, and many many others can understand developed in England. Was it affected by outside influences? Sure. Did the language travel to other lands? Sure did...Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India...few people can name all the countries with large, English-speaking populations from memory.

Who was MOST responsible for this spread? The British Empire. Yeah, we Americans tried to get in the game too but not with near the success (?).

Modern English developed all over the world and no one can claim it. England can have Old English and Middle English if they want, but Modern English has to be shared with all their colonies.

sweetiebatman · Aug 22, 2012

Shaun__ said:
sweetiebatman said:

You do realize the Germanic refers to Northern Europe extending up into Scandanavia and has NO links to Germany as we know it? bar the fact it is where the country derived its name

Click to expand...

You know tribes used to run around before people decided countries were a great idea, and none of the modern countries have much to do with the past right?

Your Quote from earlier to which I was replying, in case there is some confusion:

The country of origin would be Germany, so that makes no sense at all.

I took issue with the fact you claimed the origin of the English language was Germany, when no such country existed, in fact Germany was only declared a Republic in 1918. The Germanic peoples is a generic term covering most of Northern Europe during the Roman Empire and encompasses many languages.

Debate on Language, Flags... Stuff...

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