Miss Vancouver finalist banned for being born male

Jupiter551 · Mar 24, 2012

This seems really unfair; she looks female, she feels female, surgically she's female, recognised legally (driver's license, passport etc) as female...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kova-kicked-Miss-Universe-Canada-pageant.html

A beauty pageant has booted a contestant out the competition after discovering the buxom blonde was born a boy.

The Miss Universe Canada organizers threw out Jenna Talackova when they found out she had undergone surgery to become a woman.
The transgendered contestant had already successfully reached the finals in the Miss Vancouver pageant before she was banned from continuing in the competition.
Although the pageant organizers described Talackova as a ‘real girl’ they disqualified her arguing that the rules state that each contestant must be a ‘naturally born female.’
According to Denis Davila, the national director of Miss Universe Canada, Talackova claimed on her registration form she was born a female.
But becoming suspicious Davila confronted the 23-year-old about her sex change and the contestant admitted she was actually born a male.
Despite her pleas to stay in the pageant her confession meant that she was pulled from the contest that same day.
'She feels like a real girl and she is a real girl. She didn’t expect people to question it,' Davila told thestar.com.
'She was hoping we could put her back in the competition, but the rules are very clear and there’s no way we can go back on it.'
The decision from the Miss Universe Canada pageant, which is owned by Donald Trump, has sparked outrage with people calling for Jenna to be reinstated into the contest.

Bocefish · Mar 24, 2012

A beauty pageant has booted a contestant out the competition after discovering the buxom blonde was born a boy.

Buxom? Really?? That's a bit of a stretch, lolz

I dunno what the rules are, but she lied on the forms she filled out saying she was born female. That's pretty much a deal killer I would assume, but that's just a guess.

KeelyAimee · Mar 24, 2012

Fuck, she's got a killer body.

NancyNoNude2012 · Mar 24, 2012

BuxomZoe said:
Fuck, she's got a killer body.

Hell yes, she does! She looks more feminine than a lot of chicks I've seen before.

Seriously, don't you think it would be sensible to allow HER to continue, maybe to expand the competition and get more flipping viewers?!?! Apparently equal rights goes out the window when it comes to gender-related issues, despite the fact that someone may identify and IS a certain gender.

Whether she had a penis or a vagina, she's still female. Some girls have penises, some men have vaginas. A person's gender and sexual identity should be respected.

Bocefish · Mar 24, 2012

the rules state that each contestant must be a ‘naturally born female

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1q6UNlFWI

She shouldn't have even applied to be in the competition, she lied and got caught. Those pageants shouldn't be about who has the best plastic surgeon.

:twocents-02cents:

LindseyDoll · Mar 24, 2012

She went through a lot to be so pretty.
And I'm willing to bet she isn't the only one who has had plastic surgery there.
It's a shame that the people who run those contests aren't open minded enough to allow her compete without having to be dishonest in the first place.

Evvie · Mar 24, 2012

ShelterLight said:
She went through a lot to be so pretty.
And I'm willing to bet she isn't the only one who has had plastic surgery there.
It's a shame that the people who run those contests aren't open minded enough to allow her compete without having to be dishonest in the first place.

I actually disagree.

It's a private contest, it's not run by the government. The Boy Scouts don't allow homosexuals. While I think this is closed-minded, I respect their right, as a private club, to set rules about who is allowed to enter.

These people have decided that the Miss Universe Canada contest is for contestants born biologically female. There are beauty pageants that allow transgendered and transsexuals to join; Miss Universe Canada is not the first and last pageant to exist.

I think it is probably upsetting for some of these people who are indeed male or female, and should not be treated as if they are not. I think it would be heartbreaking if it was that young lady's lifelong dream to be in the Miss Universe pageant, for example. In the end, though, I respect the rights of private organizations to set their own rules.

It may seem close-minded, but I think it would be equally violating for a higher power to step in and force the officials to do things a different way. We want this woman's rights to be protected, but we should also be concerned about the rights of clubs, groups, and organizations.

Jupiter551 · Mar 25, 2012

Bocefish said:
the rules state that each contestant must be a ‘naturally born female

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1q6UNlFWI

Click to expand...

She shouldn't have even applied to be in the competition, she lied and got caught. Those pageants shouldn't be about who has the best plastic surgeon.

:twocents-02cents:

Right but the argument would be that the question on the form is discriminatory in the first place. The pageants shouldn't be about a lot of things but if she's had years of hormone treatment, surgery, etc and is considered legally female, shouldn't it just be up to the judges whether she wins or not? I call BS that the guy "had suspicions", the judges who made her a finalist couldn't tell, I suspect he looked into her past or something.

The illusory importance of something that only becomes apparent when it's public knowledge...

Evvie said:
It's a private contest, it's not run by the government. The Boy Scouts don't allow homosexuals. While I think this is closed-minded, I respect their right, as a private club, to set rules about who is allowed to enter.

These people have decided that the Miss Universe Canada contest is for contestants born biologically female. There are beauty pageants that allow transgendered and transsexuals to join; Miss Universe Canada is not the first and last pageant to exist.

I think it is probably upsetting for some of these people who are indeed male or female, and should not be treated as if they are not. I think it would be heartbreaking if it was that young lady's lifelong dream to be in the Miss Universe pageant, for example. In the end, though, I respect the rights of private organizations to set their own rules.

It may seem close-minded, but I think it would be equally violating for a higher power to step in and force the officials to do things a different way. We want this woman's rights to be protected, but we should also be concerned about the rights of clubs, groups, and organizations.

Well firstly the Miss Universe Organisation, jointly owned by NBC and Donald Trump isn't a club, a group, etc it's a company. Would you feel the same about this if only caucasian women were allowed to enter? Discrimination is discrimination and if, as the article suggests, it's the parent company that has set this rule they may well be in violation of anti-discrimination laws. The company is based in New York, which I believe prohibits discrimination against transgender people - I'm not an expert obviously. I do know that several countries and states in the US do prohibit discrimination of any kind, including against transgender people.

Think about it this way - if there was a beauty pageant or similar for men would they accept her? I think not. Without anti-discrimination laws she's not welcome anywhere.

VeronicaChaos · Mar 25, 2012

Evvie said:
The Boy Scouts don't allow homosexuals. While I think this is closed-minded, I respect their right, as a private club, to set rules about who is allowed to enter.

Because Penn and Teller can talk better than me.

</threadjack>

But yeah, that's lame. Rules that don't help anybody, and instead discriminate, fucking suck.

Bocefish · Mar 25, 2012

Jupiter551 said:
Think about it this way - if there was a beauty pageant or similar for men would they accept her? I think not. Without anti-discrimination laws she's not welcome anywhere.

There are plenty of other pageants where she is welcomed and CAN compete in. I don't think requiring that a participant in a Miss whatever pageant being born a female is asking too much, or discriminatory. It's a pageant ffs. Imagine if your sister's life long dream was to win, but lost to a person that wasn't even born female, yet with the miracles of modern medicine and plastic surgery.... spent $100K to change gender and drastically alter her appearance. Would that be fair?

Nordling · Mar 25, 2012

Bocefish said:
Jupiter551 said:

Think about it this way - if there was a beauty pageant or similar for men would they accept her? I think not. Without anti-discrimination laws she's not welcome anywhere.

Click to expand...

There are plenty of other pageants where she is welcomed and CAN compete in. I don't think requiring that a participant in a Miss whatever pageant being born a female is asking too much, or discriminatory. It's a pageant ffs. Imagine if your sister's life long dream was to win, but lost to a person that wasn't even born female, yet with the miracles of modern medicine and plastic surgery.... spent $100K to change gender and drastically alter her appearance. Would that be fair?

:lol: Are you suggesting that Jupe has a sister who's a bigot? lol

Bocefish · Mar 25, 2012

Nordling said:
:lol: Are you suggesting that Jupe has a sister who's a bigot? lol

:roll:

Jupiter551 · Mar 25, 2012

Bocefish said:
Jupiter551 said:

Think about it this way - if there was a beauty pageant or similar for men would they accept her? I think not. Without anti-discrimination laws she's not welcome anywhere.

Click to expand...

There are plenty of other pageants where she is welcomed and CAN compete in. I don't think requiring that a participant in a Miss whatever pageant being born a female is asking too much, or discriminatory. It's a pageant ffs. Imagine if your sister's life long dream was to win, but lost to a person that wasn't even born female, yet with the miracles of modern medicine and plastic surgery.... spent $100K to change gender and drastically alter her appearance. Would that be fair?

I dunno, that depends on your views on gender reassignment I guess - the law says she's female, her hormones are female, I suspect (though I've never actually checked) that she can legally marry a man in places where homosexual marriage is still illegal. I just wonder if all those things, far more important than a beauty pageant, give her female status, why miss universe wouldn't?

I'm guessing because if she did win and it came out it would become a controversy - because people really are still bigoted about transgender people. Even I am a bit, I'll admit it - I don't mean to be, but I would still be thinking about it if I went on a date with her and she told me.

Mirra · Mar 25, 2012

I think it's a shame that the rules are set up that way but it is what it is.

SoTxBob · Mar 25, 2012

"Disclaimer- just a question here . I dont care one way or the other."

Technically, I would bet that the end of the application where she had to sign has a bit of legalese that has the ... "all information it true and correct and if found falsified, is grounds for revocation and removal from" said pageant. Trump has great lawyers for that shit.

IMO, it seems like a matter of her lie about it got her canned... and Not a discriminatory thing since she is able to pass most criteria for female. Had her conscience not popped up and she'd kept her mouth shut, nobody'd have been the wiser.
BTW.. I'd also bet she still takes female hormone supplements since 'born male' bodies don't produce enough.

..... does anyone recall the "007 Bond girl" that was a "remanufactured" male? It was back in Sean Connery days . She was a stunner for sure. I believe after it all blew over, she ended up marrying some Greek rich guy.

Bocefish · Mar 25, 2012

Without anti-discrimination laws she's not welcome anywhere.

The only things she probably can't do, is enter certain beauty pageants and bear children. I can't think of any other areas where she'd be considered less than female. Look at Jamie Lee Curtis for instance, she's extremely successful and still kinda hot at her age.

Zoomer · Mar 25, 2012

Jupiter551 said:
the law says she's female, her hormones are female, I suspect (though I've never actually checked) that she can legally marry a man in places where homosexual marriage is still illegal.

She had her gender operation aged 19, and good for him if he chose to be female as that's how he identified himself - nothing wrong with his decision (or hers as she will now be referred to).

However, she will take HRT permanently, which gives her female hormones... she doesn't produce them.
She has no ovaries, no uterus, no cervix.

Trying to argue she is female depends upon how you classify it. The law is rather simplistic for our own good. Biologically speaking there is no question, she's not really female. She may have a gorgeous appearance, she may act and behave like a female - but biologically - she isn't. Remove the HRT and male hormones will come back.

If she wasn't so pretty, but was hairy, more manly and with a deep booming voice - would people be "oh yes, she should be allowed into the competition" - no. They would claim she isn't attractive enough to take part, and everyone would be fine with that.

But is that not also discrimination based upon looks and physically attributes? :roll:

It has hit the headlines because she is hot. Period. Or not. Wait, bad pun. No, it was good. But bad. Dammit.

Bocefish · Mar 25, 2012

I thought of one more venue that she couldn't participate in as a woman. Remember the Olympic athlete that tried to compete as a woman, but her DNA was clearly male despite her gender reassignment. I guess that pretty much shoots Chaz Bono's chance at Mr. Universe all to hell too.

PunkInDrublic · Mar 25, 2012

Wonder what her "vagina" looks like.

SoTxBob · Mar 25, 2012

PunkInDrublic said:
Wonder what her "vagina" looks like.

Mmmmm .. Show vag BB.. :evil:

Jupiter551 · Mar 25, 2012

Zoomer said:
However, she will take HRT permanently, which gives her female hormones... she doesn't produce them.
She has no ovaries, no uterus, no cervix.

Trying to argue she is female depends upon how you classify it. The law is rather simplistic for our own good. Biologically speaking there is no question, she's not really female. She may have a gorgeous appearance, she may act and behave like a female - but biologically - she isn't. Remove the HRT and male hormones will come back.

If she wasn't so pretty, but was hairy, more manly and with a deep booming voice - would people be "oh yes, she should be allowed into the competition" - no. They would claim she isn't attractive enough to take part, and everyone would be fine with that.

But is that not also discrimination based upon looks and physically attributes? :roll:

It has hit the headlines because she is hot. Period. Or not. Wait, bad pun. No, it was good. But bad. Dammit.

Well it hit the headlines because she was already a finalist for Miss Universe, and according to that article she's been a participant in MU before and it shows her with like 20 women representing their countries and she has the "Canada" sash. No one cared til they knew.

Previously a contestant was kicked out because it was discovered she was pregnant, so apparently it's possible to be too much woman as well as not enough. Having ovaries might seem a liability in MU in this case lol.

You're right, whether or not she is female is arguable, but under law we choose to accept that she is - give her the benefit of the doubt.

There are certainly hairier woman, with manly booming voices, and I suspect they would be permitted to at least try to enter whatever pageants are necessary to get to that level - then she would be eliminated by the judges through the more normal methods - feminists have argued pageants are discriminatory to looks for years. People have also argued that the pageant also is essentially racist because it conforms to a westernised ideal of beauty that favours certain ethnic groups.

This however, is more like not even letting non-white contestants the opportunity to even compete. I just don't see how it harms anyone.

Jupiter551 · Mar 25, 2012

PunkInDrublic said:
Wonder what her "vagina" looks like.

Can you pick the one that used to be male? (and if you didn't know one used to be male, would you pick it as having undergone gender reassignment surgery?)
a)

b)

Rose · Mar 25, 2012

Just to play Devil's Advocate, she did lie on a 'legal' form. Usually that alone is grounds for evocation in stuff like this. It sucks, but lying is lying either way and lying on forms like this just makes sense that you'd be kicked from the competition.

She is really hot though. Also, I'd like to know which was which on Jup's post.

I can't really see a difference.

RogueWarrior · Mar 25, 2012

Jupiter551 said:
No one cared til they knew.

That, my friend, is an asinine statement.

I am not by any means comparing the following in terms of seriousness to what we are discussing but rather using it as an absurd example to illustrate a point.

Mr. Johnson pretty much kept to himself, but was friendly enough. Never caused any problems, was a pretty good neighbor. Then 16 bodies were discovered buried in his backyard. No one cared until they knew.

How can you care, if you don't know?

Jupiter551 · Mar 25, 2012

RogueWarrior said:
Jupiter551 said:

No one cared til they knew.

Click to expand...

That, my friend, is an asinine statement.

I am not by any means comparing the following in terms of seriousness to what we are discussing but rather using it as an absurd example to illustrate a point.

Mr. Johnson pretty much kept to himself, but was friendly enough. Never caused any problems, was a pretty good neighbor. Then 16 bodies were discovered buried in his backyard. No one cared until they knew.

How can you care, if you don't know?

Okay to put it another way, no one could tell until someone else spilled the beans.
The example is different because plenty of people cared about the 16 bodies, they just hadn't found the culprit or location yet.

I'm not even sure she lied, she no doubt believes she was born a female - in a male body.

JoleneBrody · Mar 25, 2012

Rules are rules and in a world where they are bent in the hopes of earnings or ratings it's nice to see an organization stick to there guns, ratings set aside.
It's there, in the rules. Just because she is hot and her in the competition could bring higher ratings does not mean she can get away with blatantly lying and breaking said rules. Lying on a legal document is not much of a role model either.

If they had let her stay then they likely would be under fire for years to come when they deny other transgender girls. Allowing her to stay out of fear of discrimination claims would likely lead to way more discrimination claims down the line.

Oh, I think it's vag B. pretty good though!

RogueWarrior · Mar 25, 2012

Jupiter551 said:
RogueWarrior said:

Jupiter551 said:

No one cared til they knew.

Click to expand...

That, my friend, is an asinine statement.

I am not by any means comparing the following in terms of seriousness to what we are discussing but rather using it as an absurd example to illustrate a point.

Mr. Johnson pretty much kept to himself, but was friendly enough. Never caused any problems, was a pretty good neighbor. Then 16 bodies were discovered buried in his backyard. No one cared until they knew.

How can you care, if you don't know?

Click to expand...

Okay to put it another way, no one could tell until someone else spilled the beans.
The example is different because plenty of people cared about the 16 bodies, they just hadn't found the culprit or location yet.

I'm not even sure she lied, she no doubt believes she was born a female - in a male body.

Fair enough, maybe not the best example, but I think you got my point.

Sorry, Jup, but I just couldn't let you get away with that statement.

She may not think she lied, but still, falsifying documents, not good. :twocents-02cents:

PunkInDrublic · Mar 25, 2012

Jupiter551 said:
PunkInDrublic said:

Wonder what her "vagina" looks like.

Click to expand...

Can you pick the one that used to be male? (and if you didn't know one used to be male, would you pick it as having undergone gender reassignment surgery?)
a)

b)

Both look kinda odd to me. Which one is it?

Bocefish · Mar 25, 2012

I too think vag B is the cosmetically man made one. What she thinks has nothing to do with the facts. She knew for a fact she was born male, yet still lied about it.

Jupiter551 · Mar 26, 2012

Bocefish said:
I too think vag B is the cosmetically man made one. What she thinks has nothing to do with the facts. She knew for a fact she was born male, yet still lied about it.

My point was, transgender people think of themselves as not being born as the "wrong" gender, rather that their body is the wrong gender. It becomes a philosphical debate at this point - which part of "you" is really you? If we remove your leg, is your leg you or the rest of you? What if we could remove your brain from your body - would you consider that your inanimate body is "you" or that you; your feelings, thoughts, emotions, outlook, personality actually had nothing to do with your body but was somewhere in your mind, your brain? And then what if we put that brain into a female body - would you consider yourself female? Or would you consider yourself put in a body with the incorrect gender?

It's vag b yeah, though I challenge anyone about to go down on it to stop and wonder if it was "real". Cosmetically it's better looking than quite a lot of natural vaginas lol.

As for breaking the rules, don't people break rules they deem unreasonable all the time? Do you all wait for the walk signal before crossing? Or do you look both ways and make your own decision? Enforcing the rules is also based on judgement - MU has let plenty of rule breaches go on various things, I just don't see how this harms anyone, I think it's enforced and publicised because anti-transgender is one of the last bastions of socially-acceptable bigotry.

Do they even have the right to make this stuff public? Usually stuff like medical information, personal information, even sexuality is private - and she will probably now be barred from entering any of the other contests, or doing modelling work, even if they have to add new rules. GG possibly wrecking her career (yes, winning stuff like MU is a 'career', or often leads to one, tv personality, model, whatever).

Miss Vancouver finalist banned for being born male

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