Flu shots and risk assessment in general

LadyLuna said:

I still stand by my earlier words- the flu shot is dangerous for some babies and not for others, and instead of debating whether it's dangerous or not research needs to be done on which babies are okay with it and which babies will die from it.

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I totally agree with this. Thanks for making a new thread so we stop hijacking the other one!

LadyLuna said:

I still stand by my earlier words- the flu shot is dangerous for some babies and not for others, and instead of debating whether it's dangerous or not research needs to be done on which babies are okay with it and which babies will die from it.

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There have been many studies. Here are some, these are specific to flu vaccines and there are many more. There are also many studies on other vaccines and the influenza vaccine is not a special case separate from other other vaccines. I think a lot of peoples reticence is due to the flu vaccine being given every year. Most of the other vaccines we received as children so it is out of sight out of mind. You could make the argument that the flu vaccine might be the safest because it has been given every year for many years and there have been no more serious reactions than the one time vaccinations.

Title: Comparative Efficacy of Inactivated and Live Attenuated Influenza Vaccines
Author(s): Monto AS, Ohmit SE, Petrie JG, et al.
Source: NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE Volume: 361 Issue: 13 Pages: 1260-1267 Published: SEP 24 2009

Title: Correlation of cellular immune responses with protection against culture-confirmed influenza virus in young children
Author(s): Forrest BD, Pride MW, Dunning AJ, et al.
Source: CLINICAL AND VACCINE IMMUNOLOGY Volume: 15 Issue: 7 Pages: 1042-1053 Published: JUL 2008

Title: Safety and immunogenicity of a baculovirus-expressed hemagglutinin influenza vaccine - A randomized controlled trial
Author(s): Treanor JJ, Schiff GM, Hayden FG, et al.
Source: JAMA-JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION Volume: 297 Issue: 14 Pages: 1577-1582 Published: APR 11 2007

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As to risk assessment, that is a great video. I think there are some more on Ted Talks and there are many scholarly papers out there talking about essentially the same thing. We humans are bad at risk assessment in the face of actual data if we have preconceived beliefs about those risks.

A little test from the book Superfreakonomics:

Here is a list of common complaints when arriving at an emergency room: numbness, chest pains, fever, dizziness, psychiatric, shortness of breath, infection, and clot.

Four of these conditions have a relatively high death rate, the other four are low. Which four have the highest likelihood of a patient dying within 12 months?

Government injections...

Ask which strains and why...

Eh- honestly. When it comes to it, it's our own individual responsibility to educate ourselves on these things instead of just filing in line like a blind duck, and make our own decisions. This is especially true for parents. It's the parents job to do the research, make their decision, and choose based on what they believe is right. I wish more people did do their homework on these things. It is really important, but at the same time it is personal choice and I hate it when others judge or try to demean someone else's choice. As a parent, that's the one thing that seriously bugs the shit out of me. It's MY child, I HAVE done the research, therefore MY choice was the right choice for my family. End of story. (obviously that was a general statement... No one here was saying that. Just sort of ranting atm soo... /endrant.)

LadyLuna said:

Just Me said:

Here is a list of common complaints when arriving at an emergency room: numbness, chest pains, fever, dizziness, psychiatric, shortness of breath, infection, and clot.

Four of these conditions have a relatively high death rate, the other four are low. Which four have the highest likelihood of a patient dying within 12 months?

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This is just a guess, but I figure that's what we're supposed to do, right?

numbness, dizziness, shortness of breath, clot

though I'm not sure between shortness of breath and chest pains...

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Yes, guessing and what people believe to be true or think is common knowledge based on the symptoms. Pretend you are a doctor, which symptoms would you be most concerned about. If no one else wants to play I will PM or post it here in a few days.

GemmaMarie said:

Eh- honestly. When it comes to it, it's our own individual responsibility to educate ourselves on these things instead of just filing in line like a blind duck, and make our own decisions. This is especially true for parents. It's the parents job to do the research, make their decision, and choose based on what they believe is right. I wish more people did do their homework on these things. It is really important, but at the same time it is personal choice and I hate it when others judge or try to demean someone else's choice. As a parent, that's the one thing that seriously bugs the shit out of me. It's MY child, I HAVE done the research, therefore MY choice was the right choice for my family. End of story. (obviously that was a general statement... No one here was saying that. Just sort of ranting atm soo... /endrant.)

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This is something that is not always up to individual responsibility. I know that will ruffle some feathers but public health can not always be left up to the individual. Typhoid Mary is a good example of this. She flatly refused to stop working as a cook and housemaid, going so far as to change her name and changing jobs (still cooking) to avoid the public health authorities and infected many people resulting in the death of some.

Now luckily or unluckily, depending on your point of view, we are not forced to take most vaccines. We are at a point in time where it had been decided that the risk is relatively low enough to not make vaccines mandatory. That will not always be true. If many continue to not get vaccinated, diseases that most here are not old enough to remember will start making a come back. Whooping cough (Pertussis) is one that is already becoming epidemic in some areas of the US.

When does the rights of the individual outweigh the rights of the public? There always appears to be threshold of public fear before people decide if it is worth the perceived risk to get vaccinated. I give you the H1N1 scare a few years ago as proof of that.

LadyLuna said:

There's a huge difference between "I don't want to get vaccinated" and "I'm going to ignore the fact that I'm sick and infect a bunch of people".

Also, this looks really cool. If they go the direction she suggests, it could eliminate the whole problem I talked about in my first post.

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My example of Typhoid Mary is the same as "I don't want to get vaccinated." She was not sick, she was an asymptomatic carrier of the typhoid bacteria. She refused being isolated or making a career change completely disregarding the fact she was causing others to get sick. This can happen with many other diseases as well, including the flu.

LadyLuna said:

Just Me said:

LadyLuna said:

There's a huge difference between "I don't want to get vaccinated" and "I'm going to ignore the fact that I'm sick and infect a bunch of people".

Also, this looks really cool. If they go the direction she suggests, it could eliminate the whole problem I talked about in my first post.

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My example of Typhoid Mary is the same as "I don't want to get vaccinated." She was not sick, she was an asymptomatic carrier of the typhoid bacteria. She refused being isolated or making a career change completely disregarding the fact she was causing others to get sick. This can happen with many other diseases as well, including the flu.

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In that case, what was the point? That we all need our vaccines in case we run into someone like Typhoid Mary? I doubt her getting vaccinated would've helped anything. If a person wants to risk their own health, that's their problem. If a person puts other's health at risk, that's when it becomes society's problem.

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Her getting vaccinated was an impossibility, there was no vaccine or antibiotics at the time. The point with her story was that you can not always leave it up to the individual to do what is right. The same can be said for choosing not to get vaccinated. Luckily not everyone is of that mindset. We generally have enough people getting vaccinated and we acquire what is termed community immunity. It is a house of cards though, too many not getting vaccinated and we end up with epidemics.